Peak Djokovic (2011) is NOT better than peak Federer

I wonder if that sense of urgency is gone now for Federer after 2017 when he claimed 2 majors.

I think that this is huge for Fed. One knock on Fed was that he was barely over .500 in 5 set matches for his career until 2017. But last year, he turned a corner by going 5-0 in 5 set matches. So I think that Fed can gut out a tough 5-setter now against somebody like a Djokovic or a Nadal, provided that his form is good enough that day to get him to a 5th set.

On another note, I rewatched the 2005 AO semi vs Safin last night . I couldn’t believe how much better Fed was back then. His speed and endurance were off the charts; about 2-3 levels better than now. Of course, this should be a given. Look at How much speed that Olympic sprinters falls lose at age 30+. Usain Bolt retired at age 30. His times were nowhere close to his best times of 7-8 years earlier. But the biggest difference for Fed was his laser of a forehand. His forehand back then was so accurate, powerful, and consistent. And anybody who says that Safin was a pushover should watch that match. Safin was bombing serves up to 137 mph. Safin’s backhand was off the charts. But Safin’s best part of his game was his return of serve. As a case in point, Sampras was stunned after getting straight-settted in the 2000 USO final. Sampras said in the interview that he tried everything with his serves, but couldn’t get them by Safin.

What I cannot believe today is that Federer was somehow 10-2 against Safin for his career. Safin was an amazing player.

What makes Federer so great is his immense versatility. Here is what I believe:

I believe that Federer royally screwed himself over by being loyal to that 90 inch racket. I think that had he ditched that racket 5 years earlier, then he could have played Nadal and Djokovic even, despite this era of slower surfaces. Fed is 5-1 vs Nadal since switching rackets, but 6-8 vs Djokovic.

However, move all of those players back to the era of faster surfaces and that is where you would see Fed pull away. 19 year old Fed had enough of a serve and volley game to be able to beat Sampras at the 2001 Wimbledon. He did this on the fast grass while using the same 85 inch Wilson racket that Sampras used. I think that a prime Sampras would have his way with a prime Djokovic on those fast surfaces. Once Djoker runs acros a bomb server like Kyrgios, Karlovic and Roddick(he was a losing record against all 3 of those players), he has a challenge. Toss in Pete’s net game and the faster surfaces of that era and Novak would be in big trouble. And so would Nadal. But to be fair, Nadal and Djokovic would destroy Pete with today’s surfaces, except at Wimbledon and fast hardcourts like Cinci or Shanghai.

I think that a peak-Fed hangs with all of these guys, regardless of era. And that is what separates Fed from everybody else that I have seen.
 
Zev
Shap
Rub

I'm sure you'll naysay but they unquestionably have the potential.
Fair enough, Rub hasn't convinced me yet (and has quite a long way to go to do so). Am big on Shap and Z obviously is well on his way although there are elements of his game he'll need to improve to get there. I have high hopes for FAA.

Only thing I'll say: Big difference between
1. having the potential to do something big yet alone ATG
2. getting there.
As you of course know.

As for the discussion at hand, wasn't it about whether Djoko would have competition or not from the up & comers in the coming years? Z looks like he needs another 2 years to fully reach his potential. Shapo, Rublev and FAA probably all need longer than that. If they make it to the top echelon that is.
 
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That's just the way I see it, and I trust my instincts. You don't have to agree, but I simply don't see anyone beating that lockdown version of Djokovic in 02 arena. That's all I have to say about it. 2014 version of Djokovic trumps any version of Fed that played at arena. And please don't put words in my mouth...I didn't say anything about peak Fed, I speak about the versions of Fed that played 02 area. Federer was past his peak when he started played 02, no version of post peak Federer 09 onwards is beating the peakiest version of Djokovic 2014 version, at the 02 imo- That is my point.
I think 10-12 Fed could be competitive, particularly 10, but I didn't realize you were talking about just 09-present Fed, I thought you meant any version of Fed in the o2. My bad.
 
That's just the way I see it, and I trust my instincts. You don't have to agree, but I simply don't see anyone beating that lockdown version of Djokovic in 02 arena. That's all I have to say about it. 2014 version of Djokovic trumps any version of Fed that played at arena. And please don't put words in my mouth...I didn't say anything about peak Fed, I speak about the versions of Fed that played 02 area. Federer was past his peak when he started played 02, no version of post peak Federer 09 onwards is beating the peakiest version of Djokovic 2014 version, at the 02 imo- That is my point.

I'd say 2010 YEC fed and 2014 YEC djoko are on the same level. But yeah, other years, djoko definitely trumps Fed at the O2.
 
Nadal refutes your claim. If 2004-2009 Federer is suppousedly better than 2011 Djokovic why didn't he defeat Rafa outside WB at GS?
 
Nadal refutes your claim. If 2004-2009 Federer is suppousedly better than 2011 Djokovic why didn't he defeat Rafa outside WB at GS?
How Federer fares vs Rafa is irrelevant to how he directly matches up vs Djokovic. And Rafa wasn’t good enough to reach Federer at his peak outside clay or Wimbledon.
 
Peak Djokovic groundstrokes and flexibility benefits him most on hard court. He has the 2nd most amount of spin behind Nadal and that is why the hard court suits him. Relatively fast and it bounces high for HIM. he beats Roger at the fast US Open 6-7/10 times and 6 times on the Australian Open surface. Roger has everything else. The spin makes the ball take off in a way that makes Novak effective and somewhat superior.
 
Peak Djokovic groundstrokes and flexibility benefits him most on hard court. He has the 2nd most amount of spin behind Nadal and that is why the hard court suits him. Relatively fast and it bounces high for HIM. he beats Roger at the fast US Open 6-7/10 times and 6 times on the Australian Open surface. Roger has everything else. The spin makes the ball take off in a way that makes Novak effective and somewhat superior.
Djoker only has 2 USO titles. Let's not overrate him.

And he also pulled Houdini acts in 2 of his USO wins over Federer. He is not beating Roger 6-7 times out of 10 at the USO.
 
Djoker only has 2 USO titles. Let's not overrate him.

And he also pulled Houdini acts in 2 of his USO wins over Federer. He is not beating Roger 6-7 times out of 10 at the USO.
bro, look what Djokovic did to Federer in the US Open in 2007 7-6 7-6 6-4. I think him being 4 years from his peak and being able to do that against Federer is incredible. i think he would have at least edged out Federer and the US AND AO
 
bro, look what Djokovic did to Federer in the US Open in 2007 7-6 7-6 6-4. I think him being 4 years from his peak and being able to do that against Federer is incredible. i think he would have at least edged out Federer and the US AND AO
Based on one match which ended in straight sets for Federer?

What a past prime Federer did to a peak Djokovic at USO 2011 is far more telling. He actually got to MP's in that one.
 
Based on one match which ended in straight sets for Federer?

What a past prime Federer did to a peak Djokovic at USO 2011 is far more telling. He actually got to MP's in that one.

A loss is a loss. If you put question marks in wins I would put question marks on Federer's victory in Wimbledon 2007. At the end of 4th set Rafa had won two sets comprehensively while Federer had lucked his way to two sets through two tie breakers. With couple of points in tie breakers Nadal would have trounced Federer in straight sets or at best in 4 sets. And this was a claimed GOAT playing at his peak age of 25 years on his most favorite surface against a 20 years old "clay court specialist". Going by the mathematical equations that people love to draw here, i would say now infinitely diminished Federer from his peak would be rolled over by Nadal in Wimbledon. Fortunately Tennis doesn't work like that.

Federer lost to Djokovic in USO 2010 (age 29), lost 2011 (Age 30) and Lost 2015 (age 34). You like it or not, but Federer has been losing to Djokovic in GSs in general once Djokovic was past age of 22, across surfaces.
 
A loss is a loss. If you put question marks in wins I would put question marks on Federer's victory in Wimbledon 2007. At the end of 4th set Rafa had won two sets comprehensively while Federer had lucked his way to two sets through two tie breakers. With couple of points in tie breakers Nadal would have trounced Federer in straight sets or at best in 4 sets. And this was a claimed GOAT playing at his peak age of 25 years on his most favorite surface against a 20 years old "clay court specialist". Going by the mathematical equations that people love to draw here, i would say now infinitely diminished Federer from his peak would be rolled over by Nadal in Wimbledon. Fortunately Tennis doesn't work like that.

Federer lost to Djokovic in USO 2010 (age 29), lost 2011 (Age 30) and Lost 2015 (age 34). You like it or not, but Federer has been losing to Djokovic in GSs in general once Djokovic was past age of 22, across surfaces.
5th set of Wimbledon 2007 puts this to bed I think. Saved BPs superbly then was dominant on return.

As mike Danny said, past prime Federer getting multiple MPs vs peak Djokovic says a lot how they would do if Fed was at his peak.
 
I think 10-12 Fed could be competitive, particularly 10, but I didn't realize you were talking about just 09-present Fed, I thought you meant any version of Fed in the o2. My bad.

Maybe I should have been clearer.
 
1) Federer beat Djokovic at French Open
2) He almost beat him at US Open (had a few match points, was leading 5-3, 40-15 in the fifth set), not an excuse but it obviously means he had the ability to beat peak Djokovic. (If Federer won this match, he would've led 2-1 in their 3 slam meetings).
3) Don't forget that 2011 Federer is not peak Federer. If it was peak Federer, the result of their last match would very likely have been different.


The gap between 2011 Federer and 2011 Djokovic is not that big.
So stop saying peak Djokovic would destroy peak Federer, aight?


2011 French Open:

2011 US Open where Federer blew his chance to win the match (go to 21:46)
Their peaks don't line up, we'll really never know, everything else is really just fun speculation. The only evidence is Federer in 2011 and 2015 vs Djokovic. There's not really any objectivity since it can't really be looked at on the flip side. As a Federer fan we can say he's not the same player as years earlier but since Djokovic wasn't even around during Fed's peak it's just an unfair assumption.
 
Djokovic, Nadal and Federer constanly push themselfs to a new levels and highs. Just enjoy it rather than constanly trying to say who is better.
 
Their peaks don't line up, we'll really never know, everything else is really just fun speculation. The only evidence is Federer in 2011 and 2015 vs Djokovic. There's not really any objectivity since it can't really be looked at on the flip side. As a Federer fan we can say he's not the same player as years earlier but since Djokovic wasn't even around during Fed's peak it's just an unfair assumption.
Djokovic was a top 3 player in 2007.
 
Probably played at a similar level.
In Masters series maybe but I think Federer was stronger overall because of his slam experience, as well as the fatigue and breathing problems Djokovic had at the time. The guy retired in the Wimbledon semi at a set all for Christ's sake.
 
In Masters series maybe but I think Federer was stronger overall because of his slam experience, as well as the fatigue and breathing problems Djokovic had at the time. The guy retired in the Wimbledon semi at a set all for Christ's sake.
Federer dropped to his lowest point since becoming No. 1 at No. 4. During Djokovic's "slump years" he never dropped below 4th. I'd say that's indicative of a similar level/performance.

Federer didn't win a major in 2011 and Djokovic didn't win a major in 2007. Both made a major final. I don't see much difference to be quite honest.
 
Federer dropped to his lowest point since becoming No. 1 at No. 4. During Djokovic's "slump years" he never dropped below 4th. I'd say that's indicative of a similar level/performance.

Federer didn't win a major in 2011 and Djokovic didn't win a major in 2007. Both made a major final. I don't see much difference to be quite honest.
Djokovic wasn't #3 til halfway through the year. I don't think he was stronger than Federer in slams and overall consistency. 14th seed at the Australian Open to start the year. Then, at Wimbledon he crumbled against Nadal physically and retired. Particularly, that US Open Final in 07' sticks out. Djokovic was up 40-0 6-5 in the first set, and he was up a break deep into the second set. The pressure got to him in his first slam final.
 
Djokovic wasn't #3 til halfway through the year. I don't think he was stronger than Federer in slams and overall consistency. 14th seed at the Australian Open to start the year. Then, at Wimbledon he crumbled against Nadal physically and retired. Particularly, that US Open Final in 07' sticks out. Djokovic was up 40-0 6-5 in the first set, and he was up a break deep into the second set. The pressure got to him in his first slam final.
He wasn't ranked that high until halfway through 2007 because he started the year at 16 in the world. He had to gain quite a bit of points to get to No. 3. He isn't a miracle worker and it isn't indicative of the form he showed either.

I think you're making too many excuses for Djokovic. I don't think the "pressure" got to him. I think Federer was better on the day. Against Nadal, sure, but he probably wouldn't have beaten him yet either.

He lost to him in the 2008 SF too. Federer was just extremely good at the US Open during his formative years there.
 
5th set of Wimbledon 2007 puts this to bed I think. Saved BPs superbly then was dominant on return.

As mike Danny said, past prime Federer getting multiple MPs vs peak Djokovic says a lot how they would do if Fed was at his peak.
Lol.. imaginative peak which always occurred when Fed was playing Roddicks and Bagdatis of the world., and went away when he had to play a teenager.
 
Federer dropped to his lowest point since becoming No. 1 at No. 4. During Djokovic's "slump years" he never dropped below 4th. I'd say that's indicative of a similar level/performance.

Federer didn't win a major in 2011 and Djokovic didn't win a major in 2007. Both made a major final. I don't see much difference to be quite honest.
Fed 2011 equal to Djokovic of 2007 :) Lord.. enough of you withholding reasoning to humans. Please enlighten such souls.

Fed 2011 = Djokovic 2007

Another from Fed Cult

Fed 2011 = Djokovic 2011 as he almost won the US Open match and won RG match

Thus

Djokovic 2007 = Djokovic 2011

Remove Djokovic from both sides

2007 = 2011 => 7 = 11 => 8 = 12 => Agassi = Djokovic

Hence proved Djokovic no better than Agassi and clearly inferior to Federer
 
Djokovic wasn't #3 til halfway through the year. I don't think he was stronger than Federer in slams and overall consistency. 14th seed at the Australian Open to start the year. Then, at Wimbledon he crumbled against Nadal physically and retired. Particularly, that US Open Final in 07' sticks out. Djokovic was up 40-0 6-5 in the first set, and he was up a break deep into the second set. The pressure got to him in his first slam final.
Djokovic is no stranger to crumbling though.

He waster a break lead twice in the 4th set in the Wimb 2014 final and eventually lost it. Wasted 6 SP's in the second set of 2015 Wimb final and lost it. Crumbled pathetically against Nadal in the 4th set of the 2013 USO final. Experience didn't seem to help him avoid crumbling.

May I remind you that Federer choked from 2 MP's up in his own serve in the 2011 USO SF? His choke was worse than Djokovic's in the 2007 USO final.

Experience can sometimes be overrated. Experience can only help you so much when you are older and your opponents are at their peaks.
 
Fed 2011 equal to Djokovic of 2007 :) Lord.. enough of you withholding reasoning to humans. Please enlighten such souls.

Fed 2011 = Djokovic 2007

Another from Fed Cult

Fed 2011 = Djokovic 2011 as he almost won the US Open match and won RG match

Thus

Djokovic 2007 = Djokovic 2011

Remove Djokovic from both sides

2007 = 2011 => 7 = 11 => 8 = 12 => Agassi = Djokovic

Hence proved Djokovic no better than Agassi and clearly inferior to Federer
Don't quote me ever again.
 
Federer dropped to his lowest point since becoming No. 1 at No. 4. During Djokovic's "slump years" he never dropped below 4th. I'd say that's indicative of a similar level/performance.

Federer didn't win a major in 2011 and Djokovic didn't win a major in 2007. Both made a major final. I don't see much difference to be quite honest.
And 2 slam SF's too.
 
Djokovic wasn't #3 til halfway through the year. I don't think he was stronger than Federer in slams and overall consistency. 14th seed at the Australian Open to start the year. Then, at Wimbledon he crumbled against Nadal physically and retired. Particularly, that US Open Final in 07' sticks out. Djokovic was up 40-0 6-5 in the first set, and he was up a break deep into the second set. The pressure got to him in his first slam final.
Well duh since he was on the rise. Fed began 2017 ranked no. 17. It doesn't mean he played like the no.17 ranked player.
 
He wasn't ranked that high until halfway through 2007 because he started the year at 16 in the world. He had to gain quite a bit of points to get to No. 3. He isn't a miracle worker and it isn't indicative of the form he showed either.

I think you're making too many excuses for Djokovic. I don't think the "pressure" got to him. I think Federer was better on the day. Against Nadal, sure, but he probably wouldn't have beaten him yet either.

He lost to him in the 2008 SF too. Federer was just extremely good at the US Open during his formative years there.
We will never know what would have happened at 2007 Wimb between Djokovic and Nadal if Djokovic hadn't been forced to retire. Nole did win the first set when he could still play well.
 
We will never know what would have happened at 2007 Wimb between Djokovic and Nadal if Djokovic hadn't been forced to retire. Nole did win the first set when he could still play well.
But Nadal has dropped sets before and come back. I don't know. True we'll never know but I'd put my money on Nadal over Nole at that point.
 
Don't bother with ForumMember. He is one of the worst Nadal fans around and a well known Fed hater.
Getting tired of hearing Roddick or even Hewitt lumped in with Baghdatis. It's getting insane.
 
He wasn't ranked that high until halfway through 2007 because he started the year at 16 in the world. He had to gain quite a bit of points to get to No. 3. He isn't a miracle worker and it isn't indicative of the form he showed either.

I think you're making too many excuses for Djokovic. I don't think the "pressure" got to him. I think Federer was better on the day. Against Nadal, sure, but he probably wouldn't have beaten him yet either.

He lost to him in the 2008 SF too. Federer was just extremely good at the US Open during his formative years there.
I'm not saying Djokovic would've won either of those matches, I'm just saying that in one of the matches, he was not physically anywhere near the Djokovic we know recently and in the other match he had an abundance of chances to at the very least win a set in his first US Open Final. There's a big gulf between the two Djokovic's in clutchness in all due respect. I don't know if it's moreso than Federer of 2011 and 2004-2007 but it's enough so that I don't think anyone can conclusively say that Djokovic's peak of 2011 is greater than or lesser than Federer's peak of 2004-2007. But anyway, this is all just bored offseason talk.
 
I'm not saying Djokovic would've won either of those matches, I'm just saying that in one of the matches, he was not physically anywhere near the Djokovic we know recently and in the other match he had an abundance of chances to at the very least win a set in his first US Open Final. There's a big gulf between the two Djokovic's in clutchness in all due respect. I don't know if it's moreso than Federer of 2011 and 2004-2007 but it's enough so that I don't think anyone can conclusively say that Djokovic's peak of 2011 is greater than or lesser than Federer's peak of 2004-2007. But anyway, this is all just bored offseason talk.
I rank their peaks about the same, maybe a slight edge to Djokovic for 2011. But he did not maintain it for 3 years like Federer did. That is what separates them as players.
 
I'm not saying Djokovic would've won either of those matches, I'm just saying that in one of the matches, he was not physically anywhere near the Djokovic we know recently and in the other match he had an abundance of chances to at the very least win a set in his first US Open Final. There's a big gulf between the two Djokovic's in clutchness in all due respect. I don't know if it's moreso than Federer of 2011 and 2004-2007 but it's enough so that I don't think anyone can conclusively say that Djokovic's peak of 2011 is greater than or lesser than Federer's peak of 2004-2007. But anyway, this is all just bored offseason talk.
Djokovic crumbled even after 2011 in important matches even with all the experience.
 
Djokovic crumbled even after 2011 in important matches even with all the experience.
I feel you, but 40-0 6-5 up on your serve is probably the biggest of Djokovic's big time slam matches. That's just a guess, and I'd paint that on it being his first major final, given how he'd played a fantastic Masters Series final with Federer a month prior and didn't choke up.
 
Lol.. imaginative peak which always occurred when Fed was playing Roddicks and Bagdatis of the world., and went away when he had to play a teenager.
How do you explain 2008 and his losing record to top 10? Losing to guys he owned between 04-07?

And lol at thinking 2011 Fed was as good as his peak years. You know, those years he made every slam final, won multiple masters, had 90%+ winning record.
 
Post 2010, Only slams counted for Fed. So, AO11 annuls RG11.

USO11 remains, and in which Fed was 1 point a way from triumph, twice, on serve! (God how painful it still is)

It's clear Fed 2011 = Djoko's 2011, at least as far as Slams are concerned.
 
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