Peak Djokovic vs peak Nadal at Wimbledon and the US Open

  • Thread starter Thread starter Beerus
  • Start date Start date

Who wins?

  • Total voters
    59
B

Beerus

Guest
We know that peak Nadal would win at Roland Garros and that peak Djokovic would win at the Australian Open. Wimbledon and the US Open were always tight on this forum so I decided to create a thread for both tournaments. It's basically 2015 Djokovic vs 2008 Nadal at Wimbledon and 2011 Djokovic vs 2010 Nadal at the US Open.

Vote and discuss.
 
Novak at Wimbledon and Nadal at the 2-1 Open, as proven in a series of 3 matches that Nadal has a superior peak there.

Why Djokovic was at his absolute peak both at the USO 2010 and USO 2013:

USO 2010: Djokovic was already at his peak in the USO 2010. He had dramatically improved and beat Federer in the USO SF. In the USO 2009 SF, Djokovic lost in 3 sets to Federer. But in the USO 2010 SF Djokovic beat Federer with the same result than in the USO 2011 SF (5 sets), indicating that he already had peaked. It's not like Djokovic was non-peak the 31th of December of 2010 and suddenly became peak the 1st of January of 2011. He peaked in the last months of 2010, at the USO 2010.

USO 2013: Djokovic would have likely won 3 Slams plus the ATP finals without Nadal in 2013, and people would hype 2013 as one of Djokovic's best years. Only because Djokovic lost to Nadal both the RG 2013 SF and the USO F, it doesn't follow that he was non-peak.
 
Last edited:
Hypothetical Rafa is unmatched hypothetical GOAT and BOAT - He basically never loses a hypothetical big match, so yeah, he hypothetically beats hypothetical Novak in both of these hypothetical matches.
 
Out of interest @Beerus

I seem to recall you making threads called Peak big 3 play each other 10 times at the US Open and Should I just accept that Peak Nadal > Peak Djokovic at the US Open within the last few months…

Did you not like the results of those threads, and so wanted to keep trying until you got what you wanted, or is there some other reason you keep spamming the forum with the same content just packaged differently? Can we find something else to talk about?

Or perhaps this is all there is after a while on TTW. We have finite resources and we keep using them up
 
jl809 said:
Out of interest @Beerus

I seem to recall you making threads called Peak big 3 play each other 10 times at the US Open and Should I just accept that Peak Nadal > Peak Djokovic at the US Open within the last few months…

Did you not like the results of those threads, and so wanted to keep trying until you got what you wanted, or is there some other reason you keep spamming the forum with the same content just packaged differently? Can we find something else to talk about?

Or perhaps this is all there is after a while on TTW. We have finite resources and we keep using them up
Click to expand...
I like discussing this stuff, but I will stop if it is spamming.
 
jl809 said:
Out of interest @Beerus

I seem to recall you making threads called Peak big 3 play each other 10 times at the US Open and Should I just accept that Peak Nadal > Peak Djokovic at the US Open within the last few months…

Did you not like the results of those threads, and so wanted to keep trying until you got what you wanted, or is there some other reason you keep spamming the forum with the same content just packaged differently? Can we find something else to talk about?

Or perhaps this is all there is after a while on TTW. We have finite resources and we keep using them up
Click to expand...
He carried on from @RS
 
Title Counts always reflect peak levels, I wonder why you fellows again and again make these same posts, no better content left ?

Peak Nadal is no match at wimbledon, if he was then he would not have been so clueless in life after 2010. 7>2. He used his matchup advantage vs Federer in 2000s, good for him, but his party ended in 2011.

US open is an even fight, and so their title counts are 4-4 as well.
 
Razer said:
Title Counts always reflect peak levels, I wonder why you fellows again and again make these same posts, no better content left ?

Peak Nadal is no match at wimbledon, if he was then he would not have been so clueless in life after 2010. 7>2. He used his matchup advantage vs Federer in 2000s, good for him, but his party ended in 2011.

US open is an even fight, and so their title counts are 4-4 as well.
Click to expand...
This post explains why you are a Damon fan.
 
Beerus said:
This post explains why you are a Damon fan.
Click to expand...

Damon is pragmatic, Stefan is complicated, thats why Damon wins.
I keep things simple, if somebody has a high peak then it always reflects in title counts, I am sure of it.

Big 3 are stable players, they are not like Safin, if the Big 3 played 15 years at the top then their peak levels have given them as many slams as they deserved. Nadal had some 4-5 year window when it was at his absolute peak on grass and he has 2 slams, this reflects his talents. He could never take 3 sets off Djokovic and could not close in the 2018 match despite Novak having a 2 years confidence lapse, that speaks volumes of Nadal's ability. 2007, 2008, 2010 Nadal would all lose to 2011 and 2015 Djokovic, have no doubts, if Nadal was good enough then he would have converted 18, he is not that league. Federer and Djokovic are a cut above him on Grass.

Nadal matches up well vs 1 player (Fed) but slams are won vs the field. Peak too I judge vs the field., No person with a godly peak even in a declined state should be 0-2 on Grass vs Dustin Brown. Performance vs Federer does not reflect as performance vs the field.
 
stefan is nice and noble guy, i like him too tbh, but damon i like a bit more thats why its damon:p
 
Djokovic's peak in 15 defeats Nadal's peak in 08 in 4 sets

At USO, it is much closer, on decoturf Nadal has a better chance to score the win. But on laykold it is a convincing win for Djokovic.
 
Kralingen said:
Djokovic is better on HC than grass so his best chance has to come in Flushing.
Click to expand...
You would think due to HC being his best surface. However, I feel peak for peak, Novak would have better joy at Wimbledon compared to us open.

I feel it would be difficult for any Novak version bar maybe 2011 to beat us open 2010 or 2013 Rafa.

Whereas Djokovic 2015 has a good shot against 08 Rafa.
 
Razer said:
Damon is pragmatic, Stefan is complicated, thats why Damon wins.
I keep things simple, if somebody has a high peak then it always reflects in title counts, I am sure of it.

Big 3 are stable players, they are not like Safin, if the Big 3 played 15 years at the top then their peak levels have given them as many slams as they deserved. Nadal had some 4-5 year window when it was at his absolute peak on grass and he has 2 slams, this reflects his talents. He could never take 3 sets off Djokovic and could not close in the 2018 match despite Novak having a 2 years confidence lapse, that speaks volumes of Nadal's ability. 2007, 2008, 2010 Nadal would all lose to 2011 and 2015 Djokovic, have no doubts, if Nadal was good enough then he would have converted 18, he is not that league. Federer and Djokovic are a cut above him on Grass.

Nadal matches up well vs 1 player (Fed) but slams are won vs the field. Peak too I judge vs the field., No person with a godly peak even in a declined state should be 0-2 on Grass vs Dustin Brown. Performance vs Federer does not reflect as performance vs the field.
Click to expand...
The discussion is peak vs peak and my man brings up 2015dal :alien:


billy-madison-dumber.gif
 
The Blond Blur said:
Peak just means the best version of a player man. For Fed that’d be his 03 run. RAFA’s would be 08, and for Joker it would be 15.

Also Stefan > that soulless scrub Damon.
Click to expand...

Best version vs Best version is untestable, you'll say 08 beats 15, and I've say 15 & 11 both beat 08, neither of us can prove it, thats why we shouldnt dwell too much of these things. Nobody changes their mind end of the day, but what we both will agree in on final count, thats why I dont entertain peak talks a lot, however people are only doing that just to prove their star is ahead. All fanbases do that, I never discredit someone with more slams with peak talks, it is not right.

By the way, Stefan is nothing compared to Damon. Soulless is what you could call Paul Wesley's acting, no expression on the face, bland. @Beerus might have convinced you on Stefan > Damon but it is opposite and not even close. Stefan vs Damon is not an argument any Stefan fan can win, I assure you.
 
Razer said:
Best version vs Best version is untestable, you'll say 08 beats 15, and I've say 15 & 11 both beat 08, neither of us can prove it, thats why we shouldnt dwell too much of these things. Nobody changes their mind end of the day, but what we both will agree in on final count, thats why I dont entertain peak talks a lot, however people are only doing that just to prove their star is ahead. All fanbases do that, I never discredit someone with more slams with peak talks, it is not right.

By the way, Stefan is nothing compared to Damon. Soulless is what you could call Paul Wesley's acting, no expression on the face, bland. @Beerus might have convinced you on Stefan > Damon but it is opposite and not even close. Stefan vs Damon is not an argument any Stefan fan can win, I assure you.
Click to expand...
If that’s the case then you can’t say that Joker beats RAFA at Wimby lol.
 
itrium84 said:
Hypothetical Rafa is unmatched hypothetical GOAT and BOAT - He basically never loses a hypothetical big match, so yeah, he hypothetically beats hypothetical Novak in both of these hypothetical matches.
Click to expand...
you got it all wrong! it's a hypothetical fed and a healthy rafa who are undisputed GOATs. anyone who knows a little about tennis knows that a hypothetical fed or a healthy rafa has never lost a match! the only completely unknown speculative thought is who would have won between a hypothetical fed and a healthy rafa! and that's a million dollar question!!
 
rafa has only once in his career held the W and USO titles at the same time. and that was in the period (USO10F)-W11F. during that period he had met nole 6 times, with the following results:

nole vs rafa h2h when rafa held both W and USO titles:
2011Wimbledon
Great Britain		Outdoor GrassFNovak Djokovic64 61 16 63
2011ATP Masters 1000 Rome
Italy		Outdoor ClayFNovak Djokovic64 64
2011ATP Masters 1000 Madrid
Spain		Outdoor ClayFNovak Djokovic75 64
2011ATP Masters 1000 Miami
FL, U.S.A.		Outdoor HardFNovak Djokovic46 63 764
2011ATP Masters 1000 Indian Wells
CA, U.S.A.		Outdoor HardFNovak Djokovic46 63 62
2010ATP Finals
Great Britain		Indoor HardRRRafael Nadal75 62

nole, on the other hand, has simultaneously held the W and USO titles 3 times. periods in which he held both titles are: USO11F-W12, USO15F-W16 and USO18F-USO19.

his h2h vs rafa in the 3 periods is as follows:

(USO11E)-W12
2012Roland Garros
France		Outdoor ClayFRafael Nadal64 63 26 75
2012ATP Masters 1000 Rome
Italy		Outdoor ClayFRafael Nadal75 63
2012ATP Masters 1000 Monte Carlo
Monaco		Outdoor ClayFRafael Nadal63 61
2012Australian Open
Australia		Outdoor HardFNovak Djokovic57 64 62 675 75
2011(US Open)
NY, U.S.A.		Outdoor HardFNovak Djokovic62 64 673 61

(USO15F)-W16
2016ATP Masters 1000 Rome
Italy		Outdoor ClayQFNovak Djokovic75 764
2016ATP Masters 1000 Indian Wells
CA, U.S.A.		Outdoor HardSFNovak Djokovic765 62
2016Doha
Qatar		Outdoor HardFNovak Djokovic61 62
2015ATP Finals
Great Britain		Indoor HardSFNovak Djokovic63 63

(USO18F)-USO19
2019ATP Masters 1000 Rome
Italy		Outdoor ClayFRafael Nadal60 46 61
2019Australian Open
Australia		Outdoor HardFNovak Djokovic63 62 63
 
The Blond Blur said:
If that’s the case then you can’t say that Joker beats RAFA at Wimby lol.
Click to expand...

Djokovic is 2-0 vs Rafa at wimbledon 2011 onwards, 2011 Rafa (aged 25) was close to 2010 Rafa, since Rafa has never taken 3 sets off Nole at wimbledon and has 5 titles difference (Borg's career) it is wrong to say Rafa will beat Novak. If Rafa had beaten a prime Novak at least once, then the conversation would be different. Murray himself had a 5 titles difference to Novak but one can say he can beat prime Novak since he actually has a win in 2013.
 
Razer said:
Djokovic is 2-0 vs Rafa at wimbledon 2011 onwards, 2011 Rafa (aged 25) was close to 2010 Rafa, since Rafa has never taken 3 sets off Nole at wimbledon and has 5 titles difference (Borg's career) it is wrong to say Rafa will beat Novak. If Rafa had beaten a prime Novak at least once, then the conversation would be different. Murray himself had a 5 titles difference to Novak but one can say he can beat prime Novak since he actually has a win in 2013.
Click to expand...
That’s irrelevant when it’s a peak vs peak discussion. This isn’t a who’s more successful at Wimby thread. This is a best version vs best version discussion.

The only reason RAFA didn’t take 3 sets off Joker is because he quit mid match.
 
I think 2010 Ned beats 2011 Djokovic at the US Open, but barely.

I think 2015 Djokovic beats 2008 Nadal at Wimbledon, but barely.
 
The Blond Blur said:
That’s irrelevant when it’s a peak vs peak discussion. This isn’t a who’s more successful at Wimby thread. This is a best version vs best version discussion.

The only reason RAFA didn’t take 3 sets off Joker is because he quit mid match.
Click to expand...

Whoever is more successful (to such an extent that his same aged rivals combined don't match his title count) automatically has a higher peak as well, you dont win most titles like that without having the highest peak. Federer is much older to Nole so peak vs peak could be arguable there but Rafa was in his prime in 2011, yet he could not win, Nole was not even in his prime in 2007, that is the difference between them. Rafa even if he wins 2007 taking 3 sets it means nothing, but Nole's 2011 win means a lot. Nole is a bad matchup for Rafa.
 
Razer said:
Whoever is more successful (to such an extent that his same aged rivals combined don't match his title count) automatically has a higher peak as well, you dont win most titles like that without having the highest peak. Federer is much older to Nole so peak vs peak could be arguable there but Rafa was in his prime in 2011, yet he could not win, Nole was not even in his prime in 2007, that is the difference between them. Rafa even if he wins 2007 taking 3 sets it means nothing, but Nole's 2011 win means a lot. Nole is a bad matchup for Rafa.
Click to expand...
That literally makes zero sense. There are tons of reasons why a player could have a higher title count than someone else despite having an overall lower peak. Take Murray for example, he has zero titles at the AO and Johansson has 1 title there. Does that mean that Johansson has a higher peak at the AO? Ofc because that’s ridiculous.

Fed’s peak is quite clearly higher than Joker’s peak at Wimby to the point that it’s not a discussion.

Sounds like an excuse to me. Joker was losing before he quit in the middle of the match anyway and Nadavic are only 11 months apart.
 
The Blond Blur said:
That literally makes zero sense. There are tons of reasons why a player could have a higher title count than someone else despite having an overall lower peak. Take Murray for example, he has zero titles at the AO and Johansson has 1 title there. Does that mean that Johansson has a higher peak at the AO? Ofc because that’s ridiculous.

Fed’s peak is quite clearly higher than Joker’s peak at Wimby to the point that it’s not a discussion.

Sounds like an excuse to me. Joker was losing before he quit in the middle of the match anyway and Nadavic are only 11 months apart.
Click to expand...
Med's peak at Rome higher than Rog's confirmed.
 
2011 and 2013 were pretty much peak vs peak at the USO and I think Djokovic had a much stronger chance of winning 2013 than Nadal 2011. In fact, 2011 could have been over in straights and in 2013 he could have easily taken a 2-1 lead. That wouldn't guarantee him the win but would be a huge momentum gain.

Wimbledon is closer and harder to judge. Nadal 2007 won but it was close before the injury and in 2011 Djokovic won very convincingly. Given Djokovic improved in 2014-2015 and 2011 was a very good Nadal and in his grass peak (2006-2011) although for sure not his BEST version, I'm giving Djokovic the edge. 2018 had both at a pretty good level and it could have gone either way.

So, I suppose slight edge for Djokovic in both, however by a small margin. Something like 6-4 in a 10-match series. Maybe 5.5 and 4.5. After all, Nadal also beat a pretty strong Djokovic in Queen's 2008 that can be considered as well.
 
The Blond Blur said:
That literally makes zero sense. There are tons of reasons why a player could have a higher title count than someone else despite having an overall lower peak. Take Murray for example, he has zero titles at the AO and Johansson has 1 title there. Does that mean that Johansson has a higher peak at the AO? Ofc because that’s ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Nadal-Novak dynamics cannot be defended via Johansson because Thomas Johansson and Murray cannot be compared, they are 12 years apart. Totally thats why Thomas has even 1 AO because his career did not fall in the presence of federer/djoker. Had Thomas been born after Federer and he had managed to win 1AO then for sure he will be rated better than Murray peak for peak, just like Stan does have a higher peak than Murray at AO because he did win 1 title there. Federer himself has 6 AOs because he is not 11 months apart from Nole there. Otherwise he would be on something like 2 AOs.
The Blond Blur said:
Fed’s peak is quite clearly higher than Joker’s peak at Wimby to the point that it’s not a discussion.
Click to expand...

Federer is 0-3 in finals, while I too am of the opinion that Federer has a higher peak than Nole, yet saying that Fed who can go down 0-3 is not a part of discussion since you automatically assume Nole is below but Nole who is 2-0 in Finals has a similar peak to Nadal because it is in discussion ?

Wow..... Sound like Novak will need 15 wimbledon to convince people that his peak is higher ? People are treating him as if he is Nadal's league on Grass when in reality he is in freaking Federer's and Sampras's league

CoolCoolCool said:
Med's peak at Rome higher than Rog's confirmed.
Click to expand...

Invalid comparison just like Johansson-Murray, trying to justing 11 months older guy failing to his own gen by giving examples of Medvedev who is from another era to Federer and having 15 years gap ?

If Med was Davydenko's age or Gasquet's age and then if he had 1 Rome, it would mean a lot because that would mean he has won that 1 title in the era of Nadal, not in this scenario when he is like decade+ yiounger and peaking at a time when GOATs are old and retiring.
 
The Blond Blur said:
Another perfect example (y)
Click to expand...

No it is not perfect

Johansson-Murray - 12 years apart
Federer-Medvedev - 15 years apart

Nadal-Djoker - Same age

Rafael has no excuse for having just 2 titles while his superior has 7 titles and is 2 tiers above him with Sampras and Federer.

The disrespect which Djoker gets despite 7 titles here is mind boggling.
 
Razer said:
No it is not perfect

Johansson-Murray - 12 years apart
Federer-Medvedev - 15 years apart

Nadal-Djoker - Same age

Rafael has no excuse for having just 2 titles while his superior has 7 titles and is 2 tiers above him with Sampras and Federer.

The disrespect which Djoker gets despite 7 titles here is mind boggling.
Click to expand...
I don't know why it's so hard for you to grasp that we're only talking about their peak, which means their highest level ever on the surface, not about their overall level on grass.
 
Razer said:
No it is not perfect

Johansson-Murray - 12 years apart
Federer-Medvedev - 15 years apart

Nadal-Djoker - Same age

Rafael has no excuse for having just 2 titles while his superior has 7 titles and is 2 tiers above him with Sampras and Federer.

The disrespect which Djoker gets despite 7 titles here is mind boggling.
Click to expand...
That’s such a lazy counter argument. According to you a player always has a higher peak level of play at an event compared to another player as long as he has more titles. That is a ridiculous argument to make.

There’s a multitude of reasons why a player can have a higher peak but be unable to sustain it. I believe that RAFA peaked higher at Wimby than Joker did. But ultimately Joker maintained a higher level schlem winning form for a much longer period of time. That’s a big reason for the difference in the number of titles.

Players peak high and then fall off a cliff all the time. Look at AO 05 Safin.
 
CoolCoolCool said:
I don't know why it's so hard for you to grasp that we're only talking about their peak, which means their highest level ever on the surface, not about their overall level on grass.
Click to expand...

Yes It is very hard for me to grasp when I see examples like Med and Johansson being given to ridicule their titles as if they played in same gen of BIg 3 ? The agenda is clear, a 7 time winner has not proven his peak and is only as good as 2 time winner while the Lord with 8 titles is proven to have peaked higher despite the man being 0-3 and he himself claiming he was good in the second decade of his career of his career as his first, yet the people here are saying otherwise against the player's own wisdom. so the agenda is certain when I see such examples given, so I cannot concur.

The Blond Blur said:
That’s such a lazy counter argument. According to you a player always has a higher peak level of play at an event compared to another player as long as he has more titles. That is a ridiculous argument to make.

There’s a multitude of reasons why a player can have a higher peak but be unable to sustain it. I believe that RAFA peaked higher at Wimby than Joker did. But ultimately Joker maintained a higher level schlem winning form for a much longer period of time. That’s a big reason for the difference in the number of titles.

Players peak high and then fall off a cliff all the time. Look at AO 05 Safin.
Click to expand...

Safin is highly overrated, I am a huge fan of Safin myself but his win is not something which he can replicate. If somebody says Safin has a higher peak than Federer at AO then I will always reject it, Federer has not won 6 titles by just longevity, his own years have been higher than Safin though anyone can claim Safin>Fed, it is a better argument than Rafa>Nole because at least Safin took 3 sets off peak Federer, however I would still not accept it. 2007 Fed will beat Safin, and Federer is greater because he has a higher peak in Aus.
 
Razer said:
Yes It is very hard for me to grasp when I see examples like Med and Johansson being given to ridicule their titles as if they played in same gen of BIg 3 ? The agenda is clear, a 7 time winner has not proven his peak and is only as good as 2 time winner while the Lord with 8 titles is proven to have peaked higher despite the man being 0-3 and he himself claiming he was good in the second decade of his career of his career as his first, yet the people here are saying otherwise against the player's own wisdom. so the agenda is certain when I see such examples given, so I cannot concur.



Safin is highly overrated, I am a huge fan of Safin myself but his win is not something which he can replicate. If somebody says Safin has a higher peak than Federer at AO then I will always reject it, Federer has not won 6 titles by just longevity, his own years have been higher than Safin though anyone can claim Safin>Fed, it is a better argument than Rafa>Nole because at least Safin took 3 sets off peak Federer, however I would still not accept it. 2007 Fed will beat Safin, and Federer is greater because he has a higher peak in Aus.
Click to expand...
Dude there’s a difference between having a higher peak and being able to maintain a higher level for an extended period of time.

I’m not sure why you can’t grasp that simple concept. The whole point of a peak is that there’s only one peak and then you compare the best version vs an opposing best version…
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

G
  • Poll Poll
Peak Novak Djokovic vs peak Rafael Nadal at US Open, who wins?
2
Replies
99
Views
6K
SonnyT
S
Winner Sinner
Pecking order in every single slam tournament the peak of the big three
Replies
42
Views
617
TheFifthSet
TheFifthSet
M
  • Poll Poll
Which is more likely, peak Djokovic defeating peak Federer at Wimbledon or peak Djokovic defeating peak Nadal at Roland Garros?
2
Replies
83
Views
2K
BGod
BGod
Adriano Panatta
Peak Tsonga(AO 2008,Wimbledon 2011,Roland Garros 2012 and ATP Finals 2011) is better of peak Thiem and peak Medvedev (with the exception of Us Open)?
2
Replies
50
Views
1K
abmk
abmk
King No1e
Average age of Slam final opponents for Peak Djokovic vs Peak Federer
Replies
9
Views
529
StrongRule
S
Back
Top