Peak Djokovic vs Peak Nadal

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Novak or Rafa to lead the peak-peak H2H?

  • Nole

    Votes: 51 45.5%

  • Rafael

    Votes: 61 54.5%
  • Total voters
    112
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Deleted member 688153

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Outside of Bo5 on clay, I think Djokovic takes it more often than not. A couple of reasons for this:

1. He has a favourable match-up. He enjoys playing Nadal's game.

2. Djokovic has a larger peak-average differential than I think Nadal does.

By this I mean that Nadal usually plays at 95% of what he is capable. He redlines most of the time he is playing, at least against top opposition. He doesn't really have a 'B' game, so he always relies on his 'A' game, and when that isn't clicking, he either loses early or doesn't play at all.

Djokovic on the other hand usually plays at 85% of what he is capable, and can massively redline for a certain tournament and blow away the opposition.

Basically, I'm saying Djokovic has more notches left on the dial than Nadal does, on average, and this works in his favour in a peak-to-peak direct match-up comparison.

Now, I still think Nadal would lead in Bo5 matches, but it would be very close:

Based on 5 matches at each, all peak-to-peak (say 2008 vs 2011):
AO (Plexi): 4-1 Djokovic
RG: 4-1 Nadal
WIM: 3-2 Nadal
USO: 3-2 Nadal
Total: 11-9 Nadal

But here's the clincher: Djokovic would clean up in Bo3 matches, winning most of them IMO (Inb4 Bo3 doesn't matter):

WTF: 5-0 Djokovic
IW: 4-1 Djokovic
MI: 5-0 Djokovic
MC: 3-2 Nadal
MA: 3-2 Djokovic
RO: 4-1 Djokovic
CA: 4-1 Djokovic
CI: 3-2 Nadal
SH: 5-0 Djokovic
PA: 5-0 Djokovic
Total: 38-11 Djokovic

Total H2H = 47-22 Djokovic in this scenario.

OP admission: I was just watching Rome 2011 F again (and was impressed).

What say you guys?
 
That doesn't make sense to me. Shouldn't a player with higher peak also have more titles?

I mean, if Djokovic has higher peak, why doesn't he use it?

I mean if a car has faster top speed, isn't it logical that this car will also have higher average speed?

So, I think this peak vs peak is just a myth from fans. Why would a car with higher top speed win less races? It doesn't make any sense at all.
 
jg153040 said:
That doesn't make sense to me. Shouldn't a player with higher peak also have more titles?

I mean, if Djokovic has higher peak, why doesn't he use it?

I mean if a car has faster top speed, isn't it logical that this car will also have higher average speed?

So, I think this peak vs peak is just a myth from fans. Why would a car with higher top speed win less races? It doesn't make any sense at all.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. That's what I'm saying.

I just think Djoker can bring that extra level when it counts against Nadal, especially in Bo3 matches.

I think Nadal does have a higher peak level if we extracted and isolated it, but in their direct match-up I would expect Novak to be able to access a higher level more often than not.
 
2011 is way too ingrained in some peoples heads. You take that ONE year out, and I struggle to see how Djokovic has a higher level in any way, shape or form. (I don't see it with it either :lol:) but you get my drift.
 
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Firstservingman said:
Outside of Bo5 on clay, I think Djokovic takes it more often than not. A couple of reasons for this:

1. He has a favourable match-up. He enjoys playing Nadal's game.

2. Djokovic has a larger peak-average differential than I think Nadal does.

By this I mean that Nadal usually plays at 95% of what he is capable. He redlines most of the time he is playing, at least against top opposition. He doesn't really have a 'B' game, so he always relies on his 'A' game, and when that isn't clicking, he either loses early or doesn't play at all.

Djokovic on the other hand usually plays at 85% of what he is capable, and can massively redline for a certain tournament and blow away the opposition.

Basically, I'm saying Djokovic has more notches left on the dial than Nadal does, on average, and this works in his favour in a peak-to-peak direct match-up comparison.

Now, I still think Nadal would lead in Bo5 matches, but it would be very close:

Based on 5 matches at each, all peak-to-peak (say 2008 vs 2011):
AO (Plexi): 4-1 Djokovic
RG: 4-1 Nadal
WIM: 3-2 Nadal
USO: 3-2 Nadal
Total: 11-9 Nadal

But here's the clincher: Djokovic would clean up in Bo3 matches, winning most of them IMO (Inb4 Bo3 doesn't matter):

WTF: 5-0 Djokovic
IW: 4-1 Djokovic
MI: 5-0 Djokovic
MC: 3-2 Nadal
MA: 3-2 Djokovic
RO: 4-1 Djokovic
CA: 4-1 Djokovic
CI: 3-2 Nadal
SH: 5-0 Djokovic
PA: 5-0 Djokovic
Total: 38-11 Djokovic

Total H2H = 47-22 Djokovic in this scenario.

OP admission: I was just watching Rome 2011 F again (and was impressed).

What say you guys?
Click to expand...

What is the premise for this comparison? They are of the same generation and Nadal has shown he is better.
 
Firstservingman said:
Not necessarily. That's what I'm saying.

I just think Djoker can bring that extra level when it counts against Nadal, especially in Bo3 matches.

I think Nadal does have a higher peak level if we extracted and isolated it, but in their direct match-up I would expect Novak to be able to access a higher level more often than not.
Click to expand...

I thought it's their peak level vs the field. But even vs themselves, Djokovic only had one year winning more than two majors. Nadal has longer peak anyway, so Nadal would come on top.

People make a mistake extrapolating peaks. Peak Safin vs Peak Djokovic. Djokovic wins every time, since Safin can't reaplicate his peak more than one month.

So, this peak vs peak is just some fans having fun and it isn't based on anything. More titles = higher peak. Like if you win more races it means higher top speed.

Logic vs Emotion.
 
Russeljones said:
What is the premise for this comparison? They are of the same generation and Nadal has shown he is better.
Click to expand...

That Novak leads since 2011.
He has Nadal's number in Bo3, and has been unlucky that most of his GS encounters with Nadal have been at RG and USO (where Nadal is at his best).

I look forward to future AO encounters between the two.

I am saying that Nadal is the greater player in terms of career and 100% vs 100% (probably), but in a usual peak match-up, Djokovic carries the advantage for the reasons I have outlined.
 
Russeljones said:
What is the premise for this comparison? They are of the same generation and Nadal has shown he is better.
Click to expand...

There is no basis. He is extrapolating from Nole's 2011 like Nole would be able to replicate this form in every match. Doesn't work this way.

You can't say peak Nole owns peak Federer, since peak Federer was 4 years and assume Nole would play 4 years like 2011, when he can't. It's a fallacy.

Also it doesn't make any sense why a car who wins more races would have lower top speed :).

This peak talk doesn't have any evidence or logic behind it.
 
MichaelNadal said:
2011 is way too ingrained in some peoples heads. You take that ONE year out, and I struggle to see how Djokovic has a higher level in any way, shape or form. (I don't see it with it either :lol:) but you get my drift.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's a myth by Djokovic fans. But, even if it were true, Djokovic still can only replicate his peak for 11 months, Rafa can replicate it for longer, since Rafa had more years winning more than one slam.

So, it's absurd to assume that Djokovic would be 2011 level for every match lol. And that Rafa would be his 2011 level in every match.
 
jg153040 said:
I thought it's their peak level vs the field. But even vs themselves, Djokovic only had one year winning more than two majors. Nadal has longer peak anyway, so Nadal would come on top.

People make a mistake extrapolating peaks. Peak Safin vs Peak Djokovic. Djokovic wins every time, since Safin can't reaplicate his peak more than one month.
Click to expand...

Maybe, but it's only meant to be a theoretical exercise.

jg153040 said:
So, this peak vs peak is just some fans having fun and it isn't based on anything. More titles = higher peak. Like if you win more races it means higher top speed.

Logic vs Emotion.
Click to expand...

It is just having fun, yes.
It is the off-season and I am bored. :)
 
jg153040 said:
There is no basis. He is extrapolating from Nole's 2011 like Nole would be able to replicate this form in every match. Doesn't work this way.

You can't say peak Nole owns peak Federer, since peak Federer was 4 years and assume Nole would play 4 years like 2011, when he can't. It's a fallacy.

Also it doesn't make any sense why a car who wins more races would have lower top speed :).

This peak talk doesn't have any evidence or logic behind it.
Click to expand...

This exactly. I never get when some fans make it seem like his normal level is 2011 and he can and should play like that all the time..... Nadal fans don't go around acting like the summer of 08 is representitive of his level. It's not, it was his peak. Career vs Career, we've seen a hell of a lot more peak Rafa and high level of play from Nadal than we have Djokovic.
 
MichaelNadal said:
2011 is way too ingrained in some peoples heads. You take that ONE year out, and I struggle to see how Djokovic has a higher level in any way, shape or form. (I don't see it with it either :lol:) but you get my drift.
Click to expand...

As I said, only a theoretical exercise.
2011 Novak vs 2008 Rafa can be a good discussion for the off-season.
 
MichaelNadal said:
This exactly. I never get when some fans make it seem like his normal level is 2011 and he can and should play like that all the time..... Nadal fans don't go around acting like the summer of 08 is representitive of his level. It's not, it was his peak. Career vs Career, we've seen a hell of a lot more peak Rafa and high level of play from Nadal than we have Djokovic.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I agree with this.
 
Firstservingman said:
Maybe, but it's only meant to be a theoretical exercise.



It is just having fun, yes.
It is the off-season and I am bored. :)
Click to expand...

True. In that case I think Roddick would own them. Roddick hit one shot at his peak that nobody would able to return it.

If Roddick made that shot vs Nole and Rafa, he would own them every time even on clay. So, I think peak Roddick is even higher level, based on that one shot.

Just saying :).
 
jg153040 said:
True. In that case I think Roddick would own them. Roddick hit one shot at his peak that nobody would able to return it.

If Roddick made that shot vs Nole and Rafa, he would own them every time even on clay. So, I think peak Roddick is even higher level, based on that one shot.

Just saying :).
Click to expand...

:lol:

My classes have finished for the year, so I'm just reading, watching movies, and typing on here.

What are your plans for the holidays, jg?
 
MichaelNadal said:
What kind of movies do you like/what are you watching? Yeah, the off-season here is always interesting.
Click to expand...

Well, I have been to the cinema recently to see Interstellar, John Wick, and Gone Girl, as I mentioned in another thread.

I have also been watching The King's Speech, Inception, Heat, Goodfellas, and Captain Phillips on blu-ray.

As for TV, I enjoy Breaking Bad, House of Cards and GoT at the moment.

I have also been watching a lot of clay DC and Rome MS matches which I have downloaded. Clay matches can be interesting to watch.

What about you?
 
Firstservingman said:
Well, I have been to the cinema recently to see Interstellar, John Wick, and Gone Girl, as I mentioned in another thread.

I have also been watching The King's Speech, Inception, Heat, Goodfellas, and Captain Phillips on blu-ray.

As for TV, I enjoy Breaking Bad, House of Cards and GoT at the moment.

I have also been watching a lot of clay DC and Rome MS matches which I have downloaded. Clay matches can be interesting to watch.

What about you?
Click to expand...

I love a good old' clay match ;)
I saw Captain Phillips and Inception in theaters, loved both :) Have Inception on bluray. I like suspense/action/epic/time-piece movies more than any other genres. TV right now I'm watching AHS. House of Cards isn't my thing (though I know it's a good show), and GOT wasn't as good as it was hyped to be when I got around to watching it, so I've been stuck in the middle of season 2 for months. I need to watch the Bates Motel season 2 finale still, I was watching that and have yet to watch the last ep.
 
Firstservingman said:
:lol:

My classes have finished for the year, so I'm just reading, watching movies, and typing on here.

What are your plans for the holidays, jg?
Click to expand...

Cool, I was also in this thread for fun. I will be working hard for the holidays.
I have a company with my mom lol. And this is the biggest season and she won't be helping, I'm alone running it. Most work is on december. So I will spend my holidays working all the time.

But that is only relative to average work time. I mean 12 hours a day work and having sundays off seems a lot, but for me it's like a vacation :).

What will you be doing?
 
Thing about 2011 is that Rafa's BH and FH DTL were awol and he essentially played into Djokovic's hands for the entire season.

Even now Rafa only rarely pulls out the FH DTL (usually in slams) for some reason.

I also think that your belief that the score will be 5:0 to Djokovic in WTF and 4:1 to Nadal in RG is kinda laughable. No way is Djokovic better at the WTF than Nadal is at RG. The H2H at RG is 6:0 to Nadal, is it not? Nadal has beaten Djokovic at the WTF, did he not?
 
2008 Nadal would lose to Djokovic 2011 on hard court. You need the USO 2010 or USO series 2013 Nadal to beat Djokovic 2011 on hard court.
 
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Only fans in denial start a thread like this. The stats are all we need, and everyone knows Nadal is a greater player than Djokovic.
 
Peak Nadal would win all the clay and grass matches. However about 70% of their matches would probably be in hard courts. Still even there peak Nadal would win atleast 1 of 3, giving him the H2H edge.
 
Firstservingman said:
Outside of Bo5 on clay, I think Djokovic takes it more often than not. A couple of reasons for this:

1. He has a favourable match-up. He enjoys playing Nadal's game.

2. Djokovic has a larger peak-average differential than I think Nadal does.

By this I mean that Nadal usually plays at 95% of what he is capable. He redlines most of the time he is playing, at least against top opposition. He doesn't really have a 'B' game, so he always relies on his 'A' game, and when that isn't clicking, he either loses early or doesn't play at all.

Djokovic on the other hand usually plays at 85% of what he is capable, and can massively redline for a certain tournament and blow away the opposition.

Also ROTFL at Djokovic winning a single match vs PEAK Nadal at Monte Carlo or leading peak Nadal 4-1 at Rome. Is that your attempt at stand up comedy.
Basically, I'm saying Djokovic has more notches left on the dial than Nadal does, on average, and this works in his favour in a peak-to-peak direct match-up comparison.

Now, I still think Nadal would lead in Bo5 matches, but it would be very close:

Based on 5 matches at each, all peak-to-peak (say 2008 vs 2011):
AO (Plexi): 4-1 Djokovic
RG: 4-1 Nadal
Click to expand...

Yeah peak Djokovic would win a match vs peak Nadal at RG when peak Djokovic in real time is 0-3 vs much slower, way past his clay prime Nadal at RG? Even better though Djokovic winning any matches at all vs PEAK Nadal at Monte Carlo (2 out of 5 in fact), and leading 4-1 vs peak Nadal at Rome. Is that your attempt of stand up comedy? Djokovic sweeping Nadal out at nearly all hard court events, and even 5-0 in Miami where all time best Djokovic took a final set tiebreak to win in 2011. :lol: Just great comedy all around.
 
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While Nadal is without a doubt the greater player (until now),

Djokovic at his best would beat Nadal at his best. Match-ups matter.
 
I would take Djokovic on every surface except clay if they were both playing their best, (unless B03 on Clay), but I still believe Nadal has had the considerably better career, therefore he is the better player. Can't argue with numbers.

I still think Djokovic can get close and maybe pass Rafa, but he will have to work for it.
 
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jg153040 said:
True. In that case I think Roddick would own them. Roddick hit one shot at his peak that nobody would able to return it.

If Roddick made that shot vs Nole and Rafa, he would own them every time even on clay. So, I think peak Roddick is even higher level, based on that one shot.

Just saying :).
Click to expand...
Hahahahahaha....great point....
 
Peak Djokovic. 2011-2012 was about as close to a peak vs peak battle you'll see in Tennis(sadly Feds age meant he never had peak vs peak battles vs either of them)....Djokovic won that 7-0 with 3 consecutive F beatings at slams and only Federer playing out of his mind at RG prevented him from getting the career and calendar slam that year.
 
Dire_Wolf said:
Peak Djokovic. 2011-2012 was about as close to a peak vs peak battle you'll see in Tennis(sadly Feds age meant he never had peak vs peak battles vs either of them)....Djokovic won that 7-0 with 3 consecutive F beatings at slams and only Federer playing out of his mind at RG prevented him from getting the career and calendar slam that year.
Click to expand...

Federer did not prevent him from winning career slam. Nadal did in 2012. Federer beat him in semi and even if he had won that match he would have had to face and beat Nadal in the final. He is 0-6 against Nadal at Chatrier. Nadal would have been the favorite despite his losses that year.
 
Why do we have silly threads like this one? If Djokovic is greater than Nadal, he will win more slams at the end of the day. Peak schmeak. Who cares.
 
zep said:
Federer did not prevent him from winning career slam. Nadal did in 2012. Federer beat him in semi and even if he had won that match he would have had to face and beat Nadal in the final. He is 0-6 against Nadal at Chatrier. Nadal would have been the favorite despite his losses that year.
Click to expand...

ICF trolls should stick to ICF and getting schooled by mughlonto instead of polluting other forums.

2011 Djokovic was a different beast altogether. He was on a totally different level.
 
Nole has the upper hand of this match up. It is amazing and almost a surprise to the the tennis fans whenever Rafa wins in the slams in the last few years.
 
I think that Djokovic would have the edge, simply because he is a very bad match-up for Rafa.

Nadal's CC forehand goes right to the Djokovic strength - backhand, so he would have to play very aggressive and low-percentage tennis old day long in order to break the Djokovic forehand. He cannot beat him "with ease" like Federer, because 1) he doesn't have the sharpness of the Federer slice and he has to hit it down-the-line, in order to prevent Djokovic to be aggressive off of the backhand wing (which is one of the Federer's tactics to force a short ball from Djokovic and to kill him with his forehand), but that shot is risky because it goes over the higher part of the net and it simply flies, rather than bites and 2) he doesn't have the Federer serve. He needs to hit that down-the-line forehand much more than ever in his life in every single match to have a chance to win. That's tough task.

Having said that ...

Nadal would win all their clay matches in best of five and probably lose some of them in best of three.

On grass, I think that Djokovic would have the edge. I remember their first two matches on grass and the main reason, IMO, why Djokovic lost is because he wasn't (mentally) ready to beat Nadal in big matches (one Major and one final), one at Wimbledon (when he surrendered/retired because he was "tired", even though he took the first set and was making Nadal play by punishing his serves - especially his second serve - that was in 2007) and at Queens in the next year against absolute peak Nadal on grass. I remember that Djokovic was a break up in both sets and served to take that match into third set, but lost anyway. It's very hard for Nadal to play down-the-line forehand more often than not on grass, because he has less time and the bounce is low, so it's high risky shot. I would give Djokovic the edge at Wimbledon - 3:2.

Nadal would have the edge at the USO - I think he would win three out of five matches. The bounce there is still high enough for him to setup optimally for his forehand and the court is fast which makes his forehand even more lethal.
On the other hand, slower court and humidity at the AO are probably the worst conditions for him against Djokovic, even though the bounce is good - their Miami matches were played in similar conditions and Nadal has never won. Djokovic has become such a grinder since 2011, with insane defense, incredible return and movement (on hard courts), so it's basically impossible to outgrind him in those conditions.

Overall:

AO 4-1 Djokovic
FO 5-0 Nadal
Wimbledon 3-2 Djokovic
USO 3-2 Nadal
Indoors/WTF 4-1 or 5-0 for Djokovic
Masters overall Djokovic

I assume that this thread is about their match-up, not about who is a better player or who has a better career, since it is obvious that Djokovic will never match Nadal.
 
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oneness said:
Yep, Rafa is always easy to beat in hypothetical matches, unlike in real life.
Click to expand...

Well in real life who holds the record of losing to his main rival in most consecutive encounters starting as the world number 1 and holder of most slams? Nadal did that 7 times in a row.
 
Peak-average differential? o.O

But yes, Djokovic when playing well is unbeatable, which is unusual for any player that's not very aggressive. I'd say peak Djokovic would beat peak Nadal on most surfaces and take Rafa to five on clay.
 
firepanda said:
Peak-average differential? o.O

But yes, Djokovic when playing well is unbeatable, which is unusual for any player that's not very aggressive. I'd say peak Djokovic would beat peak Nadal on most surfaces and take Rafa to five on clay.
Click to expand...

You took the words right out of my mouth.
 
Noleberic123 said:
No one beats peak djokovic except Federer.
Click to expand...
lolno.jpg
 
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