Peak Federer is overrated

[The Fedfather]

You forgot 2004 USO
Also Agassi in 2004 AO against Safin
He would given Federer the same amount of trouble if he had faced him

So if we're making conclusions based on sets in separate matches can you name an ATG who isn't overrated? Because I'm pretty sure all of them struggled against different players in one or two sets.

 

[tennisaddict]

''let's talk big rivals h2h when small opponent h2h is fixed''. Yea so much to argue for..

What is the difficulty in understanding ? I am not saying big rival h2h does not count . But ask yourself - which is worse - having a losing h2h against a no name rival or a big rival ?

If Djoker's h2h resume is stain free, we can THEN debate and dissect his h2h with Fed.

Let Djoker fix his h2h versus everyone and we will talk about Fed's record with him

 

[NatF]

I mostly agree.
Still we hear Federer fans talk about much physical disadvantage being 6 years older is, being 11 years older should be a death sentence

IIRC 2005 Agassi had played about as many matches as 2012 Federer up to that point. Not saying that completely balances out Agassi being 4 years older in 2005 vs 2012 but it's not insignificant that Agassi had several off years in his 20's and his most consistent results came in 1999-2003 and he'd been playing a reduced schedule for a couple of years at least. Not quite as simple as 6 years versus 11, of course Agassi also had back troubles which you didn't mention either.

I would also point out that Agassi had an extremely tough QF opponent in Blake who played at an incredibly high level - instant classic. I'm not sure when Federer last beat an opponent playing at that level, he certainly didn't do it in 2015.

I'm mostly concerned with how people play on the day, the reasons for why they're good or bad come later. IMO Agassi played a better match than Federer despite the bigger age gap. Does that mean younger Agassi would have a field day with Federer, no - because older Agassi in that match played at a level closer to his best than Federer did in his.

If you really are an objective observer let's not generalise and instead look at each match on it's own merits without assumptions

 

[Deleted member 742196]

Joined
Yesterday

OMG OMG OMG OMG

OMG

I’ve seen a post by @VolleyHelena !

OMG OMG

Can't figure out the original one.
This seems to be the latest alt before this one. Barbas - https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?members/barbas.762864/

Two posts in the same thread!

You figured out the original?



Fair enough.

Three!

This feels like spotting one of those elusive things in the tall savannah brush, you see grass stalks shift about, you know something’s there!

Like the documentaries where the guy with the English accent and safari outfit hovers around for ages to get one glimpse of an endangered winged anglecrest meerkat!

Like finally figuring out where that ‘plink!’ sound was coming from in the car!

 

[Objective observer]

So if we're making conclusions based on sets in separate matches can you name an ATG who isn't overrated? Because I'm pretty sure all of them struggled against different players in one or two sets.

It's not isolated Agassi gave Federer and his generation quite a bit of trouble
He bit Hewitt in 2002 USO, pushed Safin hard in 2004 AO and many other instances.

Despite the age disadvantage, it is quite clear Agassi gave Federer and his gen a lot of trouble with his baselining

 

[CYGS]

What is the difficulty in understanding ? I am not saying big rival h2h does not count . But ask yourself - which is worse - having a losing h2h against a no name rival or a big rival ?

If Djoker's h2h resume is stain free, we can THEN debate and dissect his h2h with Fed.

Let Djoker fix his h2h versus everyone and we will talk about Fed's record with him

Fed has losing h2h to more people than Djokovic has. Educate yourself first and then we'll talk.

 

[Objective observer]

IIRC 2005 Agassi had played about as many matches as 2012 Federer up to that point. Not saying that completely balances out Agassi being 4 years older in 2005 vs 2012 but it's not insignificant that Agassi had several off years in his 20's and his most consistent results came in 1999-2003 and he'd been playing a reduced schedule for a couple of years at least. Not quite as simple as 6 years versus 11, of course Agassi also had back troubles which you didn't mention either.

I would also point out that Agassi had an extremely tough QF opponent in Blake who played at an incredibly high level - instant classic. I'm not sure when Federer last beat an opponent playing at that level, he certainly didn't do it in 2015.

I'm mostly concerned with how people play on the day, the reasons for why they're good or bad come later. IMO Agassi played a better match than Federer despite the bigger age gap. Does that mean younger Agassi would have a field day with Federer, no - because older Agassi in that match played at a level closer to his best than Federer did in his.

If you really are an objective observer let's not generalise and instead look at each match on it's own merits without assumptions

Ok I agree with this
I just wanted to show age is not necessarily a death sentence and level of play matters more
I admit the thread title was provocative I wanted views

 

[The Fedfather]

It's not isolated Agassi gave Federer and his generation quite a bit of trouble
He bit Hewitt in 2002 USO, pushed Safin hard in 2004 AO and many other instances.

Despite the age disadvantage, it is quite clear Agassi gave Federer and his gen a lot of trouble with his baselining

'A lot' is relative. You're not ready to name any not overrated players I see, so why did you need to single out Federer? Maybe you're not as objective as you think.

 

[Objective observer]

'A lot' is relative. You're not ready to name any not overrated players I see, so why did you need to single out Federer? Maybe you're not as objective as you think.

Ok the thread title was not fully appropriate

My main point is that age is not a death sentence and level on the day matters more

 

[Objective observer]

We often hear about how Djokovic is overrated because he had some trouble with 6 year older Federer, I just wanted to show that there is no shame in that

 

[NatF]

Ok I agree with this
I just wanted to show age is not necessarily a death sentence and level of play matters more
I admit the thread title was provocative I wanted views

Ok, I won't hold it against you then

 

[Sudacafan]

Re: Agassi
No one here is mentioning the greatest handicap Agassi had, and why he had so many ups and downs, until he met Steffi at the end of the road: he was involved in "inconvenient" relationships.
Federer only had Mirka and stability, very important to have a consistent career.

 

[Objective observer]

Ok, I won't hold it against you then

Thanks!

 

[Objective observer]

No.

Why? Because we've seen this stodgy, uncreative routine performed an endless amount of time within this forum, nearly every single week: Some new (or usually 'new') poster with some edgy username comes in, and their first act is to create a shrine of transparent, artless agitation following the template of "Player XYZ is overrated / won in a weak era / not goat / blah blah blah." Naturally, Federer is the most popular object of this sort of agitation, but fret not, the other players have received plenty of this 'love' as well. So you see, you are not presenting anything that hasn't been blathered to death a limitless amount of times already, in the same tired form that it has always been presented in.

Well I'm new and I thought it was a good topic to speak about.
Obviously I haven't been here as long as you to see all the endless posts over the years... I wasn't trying to imitate anyone

 

[Sysyphus]

Well I'm new and I thought it was a good topic to speak about.
Obviously I haven't been here as long as you to see all the endless posts over the years... I wasn't trying to imitate anyone

My reaction was overblown, and I apologize for that.

But yes, this the kind of thread that has been seen thousands of times and always ends in fan wars throwing weak era slurs at each other's favorite male idols.

 

[Objective observer]

My reaction was overblown, and I apologize for that.

But yes, this the kind of thread that has been seen thousands of times and always ends in fan wars throwing weak era slurs at each other's favorite male idols.

Luckily I haven't seen much of that yet
Maybe I'll also become grumpy if I stay here long enough (jk)

 

[I Am Finnish]

 

[Subway Tennis]

Your obsession with us is pathetic.

There will always be friction with certain Federer fans towards Djokovic. Djokovic stimulates their insecurities and fears.

Everything from the way Djokovic brashly announced his intentions to overthrow Federer as a confident teenager in the mid-2000s, to the way he eventually came to master Federer, beating him in some of the most heartbreaking losses of his career.

The result is rarely in doubt when they play now. I still love the matchup, though, as much for the dramatic subtext as the quality of the tennis.

 

[Devin]

So which poster is this?

 

[Standaa]

From my point of view, peak Federer is underrated!

 

[Deleted member 757377]

Most consecutive wins against 6+ slam finalists:

Djokovic 11 (active)
Lendl 7
Nadal 6
Sampras 6
McEnroe 4
Connors 4
Courier 4
Wilander 4
Borg 3
Becker 3
Edberg 3
Agassi 2
Murray 2
Federer 2

 

[astronautzor]

Djokovic would have slain Federer 2005-2007 any day, If Djokovic 2015 played vs Federer 2005-2007 in 10 matches? i´d say 9-1 to Novak, and im not even kidding.

Federer 2015 would also beat a 2005 Federer.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Overrated by some (who think he was invincible in best form in most conditions and could have never lost unless he was off), underrated by others (who think he was a glorified Murray and Djokodal would've made short work of him if only they were present). The usual thing.

 

[astronautzor]

What is the difficulty in understanding ? I am not saying big rival h2h does not count . But ask yourself - which is worse - having a losing h2h against a no name rival or a big rival ?

If Djoker's h2h resume is stain free, we can THEN debate and dissect his h2h with Fed.

Let Djoker fix his h2h versus everyone and we will talk about Fed's record with him

Wtf are you on about?

Federer has 10 negative H2H´s vs other opponents, Djokovic has 3..

 

[Deleted member 757377]

Overrated by some (who think he was invincible in best form in most conditions and could have never lost unless he was off), underrated by others (who think he was a glorified Murray and Djokodal would've made short work of him if only they were present). The usual thing.

2010-16 Murray was 131-6 in slams against non-GOATs.

Lord knows how many slams he would have won in 2000-06...

 

[tennisaddict]

Wtf are you on about?

Federer has 10 negative H2H´s vs other opponents, Djokovic has 3..

Let us talk about Djokovic vs lesser opponents first before talking about Fed vs Agassi or Fed vs Djokovic

 

[Deleted member 757377]

Most consecutive wins against 6+ slam finalists:

Djokovic 11 (active)
Lendl 7
Nadal 6
Sampras 6
McEnroe 4
Connors 4
Courier 4
Wilander 4
Borg 3
Becker 3
Edberg 3
Agassi 2
Murray 2
Federer 2

I like this stat A LOT

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

2010-16 Murray was 131-6 in slams against non-GOATs.

Lord knows how many slams he would have won in 2000-06...

Beating Tsonga, Berdych, Ferrer, Isner, Nishikori etc. doesn't necessarily translate to beating Sampras, Agassi, Ferrero, Roddick, Hewitt, Safin and a host of claycourters on clay.

 

[SuperSpinner]

Didn't peak Djokovic struggle against Istomin? Istomin is probably a bit better than Agassi.

 

[CYGS]

Let us talk about Djokovic vs lesser opponents first before talking about Fed vs Agassi or Fed vs Djokovic

Fed has losing h2h against more lesser opponents than Djokovic does. Check your facts before making a fool of yourself.

 

[KINGROGER]

Sorry about that.

Still ,what is your opinion on 11 year older agassi having baseline game to match peak Fed but Federer being a servebot and cannon fodder
for 6 year younger Djokovic

Despite being 11 years older

Djokovic's win over 6 year older Federer don't count however, because Federer was a servebot with no baseline game...........

Agassi and Federer are not the same player.

The situations are not comparable.

Wtf is this dumb trolling? At least use some stats like Lew does to support your trolling.

 

[KINGROGER]

Yeah I agree it's funny how Djokovic is criticized for not totally crushing 6 year older Federer but Federer gets a free pass for somewhat struggling with 11 year older Agassi

Federer was something like 8-0 vs old Agassi. Nole lost about 6 matches vs old Fed over BO3.

 

[Objective observer]

Agassi and Federer are not the same player.

The situations are not comparable.

Wtf is this dumb trolling? At least use some stats like Lew does to support your trolling.

Yes Federer is supposed to be much better than Agassi at old age that is the point

Also I was illustrating the massive age difference between Agassi and Federer

 

[Objective observer]

Federer was something like 8-0 vs old Agassi. Nole lost about 6 matches vs old Fed over BO3.

So? Fed was still useless in slams
A few serve botting fast court wins doesn't change the fact that Agassi was a bigger thread from the baseline to 11 year younger Fed than Fed to 6 year younger Djokovic

 

[KINGROGER]

Yes Federer is supposed to be much better than Agassi at old age that is the point

Also I was illustrating the massive age difference between Agassi and Federer

I’d rate 04-05 Agassi better than 14-15 Federer from the baseline in terms of pure ball striking. Obviously I’d put Fed’s movement and S&V higher.

2017 Fed reached a close to prime baseline level again once he adjusted to the new racket.

 

[KINGROGER]

So? Fed was still useless in slams
A few serve botting fast court wins doesn't change the fact that Agassi was a bigger thread from the baseline to 11 year younger Fed than Fed to 6 year younger Djokovic

What point are you trying to prove? That Fed in 04-05 had tougher competition than 14-16 Djokovic?

I agree.

 

[KINGROGER]

I'm not bothered with his peak level, it's something that cannot be put to weight just like that. Fed having weak opponents in his Slam quest is a fact, well known fact. He is perfect example of good player vulturing on weak field and being pushed to something he didn't deserve to full extent.

Yes. Just like Nadal and Djokovic.

 

[Objective observer]

What point are you trying to prove? That Fed in 04-05 had tougher competition than 14-16 Djokovic?

I agree.

You don't find it somewhat embarassing that grandpa agassi is miles better than grandpa fed?

 

[KINGROGER]

You don't find it somewhat embarassing that grandpa agassi is miles better than grandpa fed?

He isn’t miles better. I think he played with better overall baseline depth but that’s about it.

They’re pretty about equal competition at slams on HC, with Federer being better on grass.

 

[SuperSpinner]

So? Fed was still useless in slams
A few serve botting fast court wins doesn't change the fact that Agassi was a bigger thread from the baseline to 11 year younger Fed than Fed to 6 year younger Djokovic

11 years to 6 years is pretty much the same considering the conditions back then which allowed great ball strikers to still remain in the game. No way that same Agassi could compete on today's slower surfaces and baseline grinding. The game has changed.

 

[Objective observer]

11 years to 6 years is pretty much the same considering the conditions back then which allowed great ball strikers to still remain in the game. No way that same Agassi could compete on today's slower surfaces and baseline grinding. The game has changed.

Interesting. This could be true since old Fed was consistently beating Djokovic on faster courts in bo3

Although 11 years can't be the same as 6 no matter what conditions lol

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

So? Fed was still useless in slams
A few serve botting fast court wins doesn't change the fact that Agassi was a bigger threat from the baseline to 11 year younger Fed than Fed to 6 year younger Djokovic

Which nobody should find surprising, as Agassi may have well been the best pure ballstriker ever. To make the term clear: shotmaking quality (separated from strategy/tactics, just the quality of individual shots) results as a sum of two parts: moving to get into position and then actually hitting the ball. For an ATG, Agassi wasn't a particularly good mover on court, so his peak baseline game, on aggregate, was below any of the Big 3, but the quality of his strokes when he did get into position was probably the best. That means that his baseline game was relatively less dependent on physicality, so he was able to retain a greater chunk of it in his thirties. No question 30+ Agassi was a better baseliner than 30+ Federer. Federer was still the better player overall with his serve and trickery. If we compare Agassi-Fed and Fed-Djok specifically, though, mental focus was a bigger difference imo. Agassi really played the best he was capable of at that point on HC (AO 05 being the exception), while Federer kept tightening up, very disappointing as he did have the game to at least take Peakovic to 5 in both Wimbledon and USO, but not the nerve for it.

 

[TheFifthSet]

No.

Why? Because we've seen this stodgy, uncreative routine performed an endless amount of time within this forum, nearly every single week: Some new (or usually 'new') poster with some edgy username comes in, and their first act is to create a shrine of transparent, artless agitation following the template of "Player XYZ is overrated / won in a weak era / not goat / blah blah blah." Naturally, Federer is the most popular object of this sort of agitation, but fret not, the other players have received plenty of this 'love' as well. So you see, you are not presenting anything that hasn't been blathered to death a limitless amount of times already, in the same tired form that it has always been presented in.

If I may add an abridged, Tl;dr version: you're not special, @Objective observer.

 

[ChrisRF]

Funny you mention that.

Agassi at same age went toe to toe with peak Safin in 2004 AO(who was a decade younger) with brutal ballstriking

Maybe Federer's own longevity is slightly overrated?

Then tell me what Agassi did at the same age when Federer won his 20th Grand Slam title, also at the Australian Open. Any idea, you objective observer?

 

[TheFifthSet]

Well I'm new and I thought it was a good topic to speak about.
Obviously I haven't been here as long as you to see all the endless posts over the years... I wasn't trying to imitate anyone

My reaction was overblown, and I apologize for that.

But yes, this the kind of thread that has been seen thousands of times and always ends in fan wars throwing weak era slurs at each other's favorite male idols.

Luckily I haven't seen much of that yet
Maybe I'll also become grumpy if I stay here long enough (jk)

Ah ffs, I should have read the entire thread before chipping in.

Alright, I'll retract that previous post and say you're very special.

 

[NatF]

Which nobody should find surprising, as Agassi may have well been the best pure ballstriker ever. To make the term clear: shotmaking quality (separated from strategy/tactics, just the quality of individual shots) results as a sum of two parts: moving to get into position and then actually hitting the ball. For an ATG, Agassi wasn't a particularly good mover on court, so his peak baseline game, on aggregate, was below any of the Big 3, but the quality of his strokes when he did get into position was probably the best. That means that his baseline game was relatively less dependent on physicality, so he was able to retain a greater chunk of it in his thirties. No question 30+ Agassi was a better baseliner than 30+ Federer. Federer was still the better player overall with his serve and trickery. If we compare Agassi-Fed and Fed-Djok specifically, though, mental focus was a bigger difference imo. Agassi really played the best he was capable of at that point on HC (AO 05 being the exception), while Federer kept tightening up, very disappointing as he did have the game to at least take Peakovic to 5 in both Wimbledon and USO, but not the nerve for it.

Yeah, even though Agassi was a better ball striker the serve is still the most important shot in tennis and Federer's serve gave him way more free or attackable balls than Agassi's did - not to mention the ability to defend. Still if you compare the actual matches the Agassi that hitting the lines with huge shots off both wings was definitely better than sometimes brilliant, sometimes awful Federer who panicked on the biggest points.

 

[Sysyphus]

Ah ffs, I should have read the entire thread before chipping in.

Alright, I'll retract that previous post and say you're very special.

LOL!

 

[Objective observer]

Then tell me what Agassi did at the same age when Federer won his 20th Grand Slam title, also at the Australian Open. Any idea, you objective observer?

Agassi retired due to his troublesome back .

No reason he couldn't play at a higher level than Federer at same age

 

[TheGreatOne1997]

Fed was real good at his peak, but looking like "peak form" when you're playing a 35 year old Agassi with sciatica who just went through three 5-setters in a row, you're Peak form is gonna look godly. ROFLMAO.

Late 2005-2007 were poor years for tennis so this enabled Fed's form to "look" unstoppable but it really wasn't.

 

[Objective observer]

Which nobody should find surprising, as Agassi may have well been the best pure ballstriker ever. To make the term clear: shotmaking quality (separated from strategy/tactics, just the quality of individual shots) results as a sum of two parts: moving to get into position and then actually hitting the ball. For an ATG, Agassi wasn't a particularly good mover on court, so his peak baseline game, on aggregate, was below any of the Big 3, but the quality of his strokes when he did get into position was probably the best. That means that his baseline game was relatively less dependent on physicality, so he was able to retain a greater chunk of it in his thirties. No question 30+ Agassi was a better baseliner than 30+ Federer. Federer was still the better player overall with his serve and trickery. If we compare Agassi-Fed and Fed-Djok specifically, though, mental focus was a bigger difference imo. Agassi really played the best he was capable of at that point on HC (AO 05 being the exception), while Federer kept tightening up, very disappointing as he did have the game to at least take Peakovic to 5 in both Wimbledon and USO, but not the nerve for it.

I agree
I really think Federer should have beaten Djokovic at USO 2015 or atleast taken him to 5 even more than Wimbledon
His level of play before the final was truly superb