Peak Federer is overrated

Jaitock1991

Hall of Fame
You are wrong. What you showed is yet to be developed player, much worse than today. This is peak Federer:



Then going by this theory of yours(which I actually agree with to some extent), would it not make sense to say that the same actually applies for oldman Agassi in 2005?

His game had really matured by 2005, and from a technical standpoint it was likely up there with the best of his capabilities during this time, especially towards the end of the USO that year, when winning one last major before retiring after all he'd been through actually became a realistic opportunity for him.

What stopped Andre from really challenging Fed to the end here imo was not being able to physically hang with him for five sets, much like what we've seen with Fedovic during the last years of their rivalry. So even though his actual game may be better than ever, his body has declined too much physically for him to be able to execute it well enough to beat a younger and therefore physically stronger opponent(who in these cases also happen to be GOATs of the game).

We can't have it both ways. If we're going to diminish Fed's win(s) over Agassi for the reasons listed in this thread(not saying you are, but a lot of people are) we also have to do the same with Djoker's win(s) over Fed.
 
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tennisaddict

Bionic Poster
I agree
I really think Federer should have beaten Djokovic at USO 2015 or atleast taken him to 5 even more than Wimbledon
His level of play before the final was truly superb
You do realize 4 tougher sets is same as 5 sloppy ones ?

USO 15 was contested as much as USO 10/11 5 setters, where we also had a few 6-1. 6-2, 6-3 sets.
 

SuperSpinner

Semi-Pro
Interesting. This could be true since old Fed was consistently beating Djokovic on faster courts in bo3

Although 11 years can't be the same as 6 no matter what conditions lol
You have no idea what the relation is. It could be 11 years back then is 3 years now. The point is we know that the game has slowed. What Federer is doing now is unheard of. Fed went to 5 against all-time great at his peak. A nobody, beat peak Djokovic at his pet slam.
 
I agree
I really think Federer should have beaten Djokovic at USO 2015 or atleast taken him to 5 even more than Wimbledon
His level of play before the final was truly superb
The USO final was a massive choke, Djok was very clearly beatable (with top tennis of course) but Fedr faltered spectacularly when it came to it. Novak's mental strength should be noted, though - the crowd kinda sucked against him yet he took it to the chin and kept confident. Novk was clearly better in the Wimbledon final so he may win in four anyway, but Federer being totally useless on return after only two sets was disgusting to see. That's all Fed's fault though, Djovak did well and no cheap wins here.
 

robthai

Hall of Fame
Courts back then were faster as well. Agassi would have struggled much more against that Federer on the modern slow as molasses surfaces of today.
 
Math and Statistics are still impartial sciences.
How you apply and interpret them is up to you, though. Every measurement is an approximation.
I infer Djokovic's major wins have been a little harder on average, but his losses have been easier than Federer's too, which balances it out. Fed having the most big3 H2H losses speaks for him here as it means he lost less to others.
 

OhYes

Legend
Out of the last 3 I would only class 2018 Wimbledon as difficult.

In the other two his main threats were took out by Murray and Del Potro, respectively.
Are we talking about Roger easy Slams ? What Wimby 2018 ? You mean Djokovic 2 Slams ?
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Fed has losing h2h against more lesser opponents than Djokovic does. Check your facts before making a fool of yourself.
But that doesn't tell the whole story. If you believe Nole was more consistent during their prime/peak period because he beat more lesser players, then he should have more season with 90+ winning percentage.

Highest Season Winning Percentage
1. John McEnroe (1984) .965 82–3
2. Jimmy Connors (1974) .959 93–4
3. Roger Federer (2005) .953 81–4
4. Roger Federer (2006) .948 92–5
5. Björn Borg (1979) .933 84–6
6. Novak Djokovic(2015) .932 82-6
7. Roger Federer (2004) .925 74–6
= Ivan Lendl (1986) .925 74–6
9. Ivan Lendl (1985) .923 84–7
10. Ivan Lendl (1982) .922 106–9
11. Björn Borg (1980) .921 70–6
= Novak Djokovic (2011) 0.921 70-6
13. Ivan Lendl (1989) .919 79-7
= Jimmy Connors(1975) .919 79-7
15. Jimmy Connors(1976) .918 90-8
16. Jimmy Connors(1978) .917 66-6
17. Björn Borg(1977) .916 76-7
18. Rafael Nadal (2013) .915 75-7
19. Ivan Lendl (1987) .914 74-7
20. Roger Federer (2017) .912 52–5
 

Meles

Bionic Poster


This is peak federer vs 35 year old 11 year older agassi

Look at how much federer is struggling against grandpa agassi
He was down a break in the third set and barely edged it out before agassi became tired

Peak fed was struggling with agassi's ballstriking

This is despite agassi being 11 years older!!
We all know how much fed fanboys cry about federer just being 6 years older than Djokovic

Also agassi had an extremely weak draw and barely beat journeyman ginepri in the semi yet he gave peak federer quite a scare LOL

Semi-retired Sampras owned Agassi in 2002 USO but absolute peak Federer was struggling against grandpa agassi in 2004, 2005 USO LMAO

Just shows how overrated Federer's peak is being matched from the baseline from a grandpa who is 11 years older LOL
Its 60's Weed @stringertom :eek:
 

David Le

Hall of Fame
It’s funny that his username reflects what he’s doing on here. Also how long have you been watching tennis?
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
Djokovic 2015 USO similarily struggled against Fraud. No big deal.



Watch Peak Fraud
at

WB 2003 SF , maybe Roddick won't be top 100 in this strong era but I am yet to see a man on grass move on the court like that and hit such shots one after another.

Before weak era , I would love to know what does opponents strength has to do with movement and hitting winners from inconceivable positions.
Roddick had zero return game, not unusual in the 2003-2007 environment.
 
It is more difficult for Djoker because he loses 3 majors each to Andy and Stan. If he played at a high level that Fed did when he was at his peak, then chances are he was not losing to Murray and Stan.

The bottom line is Djoker missed his chances that he got to amass his tally. Fed took his.
Well to be fair Murray and wawrinka are probably better players than anyone from 2003-2007 bar Agassi
 

jukka1970

Professional
Not something to be that proud about

1. Agassi is 11 years older than Fed but Fed is just 6 years older than Djokovic
2. Agassi was very inconsistent in the rankings in old age while Federer always stayed in the top 2 mostly in 2014-2015.
3. Federer's peak is supposed to be much higher than Djokovic's
4. Federer is supposed to much better than Agassi at old age due to advances in nutrition, technology etc
Also Federer with 20 slams is supposed to be way more talented than Agassi with just 8 slams
Always find it amazing how a new user picks apart specific matches instead of looking at the career. I mean what's next Nadal is overrated because he lost to Soderling at the French Open where he's dominated 95% of his career?
 

jukka1970

Professional
If i say Federer is GOAT will I be called an alt?
I don't think so..

I have just made an observation based on fact that Federer struggled with 11 year older Agassi
What is wrong about that somebody please tell me...
The issue is your statement of Peak Federer is overrated based on the one match.
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
You can be rest assured that when someone calls him "Objective Observer" that he/she is anything but that.
An absolute rule in TTW.

But the #1 accepted truth is that anyone who begins their post with the words, "I am a huge fan of Rafa! (or Djokovic or Federer!") is actually a hater of that player but pretending otherwise. At least 10% of the threads here start with "I love Rafa, but when I analyze it, Nole is like so much better!" Or variations thereof... "Let's just say at the beginning that I'm like the biggest ever Novak fan and live in Belgrade, but Rafa is really just so epic!"

These types of posts are transparent to all except the disingenuous liar starting all these threads. Legit fans of a player never announce it. The content of their posts makes it obvious.
 

tennisaddict

Bionic Poster
Well to be fair Murray and wawrinka are probably better players than anyone from 2003-2007 bar Agassi
While that is debatable , it is very evident and factual that both Fed and Nadal , at their primes , defeated players who brought similar levels to major finals, without losing any opportunity.

Djoker missed plenty of chances . Even against Fed and Nadal it was never easy for him to close the door in those finals and SF. That is the reason why his conversion rates are inferior . He had the chance to achieve as much as them. He had the same number of opportunities with slightly inferior opponents and also the luxury of playing an older Federer and older Nadal
 

Standaa

G.O.A.T.
An absolute rule in TTW.

But the #1 accepted truth is that anyone who begins their post with the words, "I am a huge fan of Rafa! (or Djokovic or Federer!") is actually a hater of that player but pretending otherwise. At least 10% of the threads here start with "I love Rafa, but when I analyze it, Nole is like so much better!" Or variations thereof... "Let's just say at the beginning that I'm like the biggest ever Novak fan and live in Belgrade, but Rafa is really just so epic!"

These types of posts are transparent to all except the disingenuous liar starting all these threads. Legit fans of a player never announce it. The content of their posts makes it obvious.
Let’s just say at the beginning that I’m like the biggest ever Beatles fan and I live in Liverpool, but Justin Bieber is really just so epic!
 

Pheasant

Hall of Fame
I love the word "struggle" here. Peak Fed was 8-0 vs Agassi. I'll take that kind of "struggle" anytime.

Old man Agassi owned Peak Fed. Agassi won 5 sets against Peak Fed. We shouldn't pay any attention to the fact that Fed won 19 sets and was 8-0 vs Agassi. This includes Fed dishing out 2 bread sticks and a bagel. Agreed. Peak Fed was owned by Old Man Agassi. This is the same exact thing as Old Man Fed going 6-7 vs Djokovic from 2014-2015, or 6-9 vs Djokovic from 2014-present. 0-8 is actually better than 6-9 Congrats to Djoker! And in 2017, Fed was "ducking" Djokovic. It is a guaranteed fact that Djokovic would have triple-bageled Fed, had they met at the 2017 AO, 2017 IW, or even Miami. Better yet, Djoker at the 2018 AO wouldn't have allowed a single point to Federer. But Fed ducked Djoker from 2017-2018. This has all been proven.

Do you guys know who else is overrated? Peak Lendl. Lendl had a tough time against Dinosaur Connors in the 1987 Key Biscayne final. He won that 3-6, 7-6, 7-6, 6-3. This is much closer than Fed's 2005 USO final match with Agassi. Better yet, Lendl squeaked by Connors in a classic 5-setter in the Boca Raton semis in 1986. Peak Lendl "struggled" against Old Man Connor.

Peak Lendl is arguably the worst player in history, based on how much he struggled with Old Man Connors. Of course, I'm leaving out the fact that Lendl ended his career with Connors by winning the last 17 straight matches against him. However, some of the matches were quite close

Bottom line:

Peak Fed struggled with Old Man Agassi by going 8-0 against him. Peak Lendl struggled with Old Man Connors by going 17-0 against him. Peak Lendl and Peak Federer are arguably the worst players ever. They flat-out sucked.

However, Peak Djokovic from 2014-present has owned Old Man Fed by going 9-6 against him.
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
No.

Why? Because we've seen this stodgy, uncreative routine performed an endless amount of time within this forum, nearly every single week: Some new (or usually 'new') poster with some edgy username comes in, and their first act is to create a shrine of transparent, artless agitation following the template of "Player XYZ is overrated / won in a weak era / not goat / blah blah blah." Naturally, Federer is the most popular object of this sort of agitation, but fret not, the other players have received plenty of this 'love' as well. So you see, you are not presenting anything that hasn't been blathered to death a limitless amount of times already, in the same tired form that it has always been presented in.
Generally I find big 3 / big 4 threads beyond tiresome, but this one not so bad to me for some reason. Guess I've missed the 11 year ancienterer Agassi line of attack before.:rolleyes:
 

ABCD

Hall of Fame
I love the word "struggle" here. Peak Fed was 8-0 vs Agassi. I'll take that kind of "struggle" anytime.

Old man Agassi owned Peak Fed. Agassi won 5 sets against Peak Fed. We shouldn't pay any attention to the fact that Fed won 19 sets and was 8-0 vs Agassi. This includes Fed dishing out 2 bread sticks and a bagel. Agreed. Peak Fed was owned by Old Man Agassi. This is the same exact thing as Old Man Fed going 6-7 vs Djokovic from 2014-2015, or 6-9 vs Djokovic from 2014-present. 0-8 is actually better than 6-9 Congrats to Djoker! And in 2017, Fed was "ducking" Djokovic. It is a guaranteed fact that Djokovic would have triple-bageled Fed, had they met at the 2017 AO, 2017 IW, or even Miami. Better yet, Djoker at the 2018 AO wouldn't have allowed a single point to Federer. But Fed ducked Djoker from 2017-2018. This has all been proven.

Do you guys know who else is overrated? Peak Lendl. Lendl had a tough time against Dinosaur Connors in the 1987 Key Biscayne final. He won that 3-6, 7-6, 7-6, 6-3. This is much closer than Fed's 2005 USO final match with Agassi. Better yet, Lendl squeaked by Connors in a classic 5-setter in the Boca Raton semis in 1986. Peak Lendl "struggled" against Old Man Connor.

Peak Lendl is arguably the worst player in history, based on how much he struggled with Old Man Connors. Of course, I'm leaving out the fact that Lendl ended his career with Connors by winning the last 17 straight matches against him. However, some of the matches were quite close

Bottom line:

Peak Fed struggled with Old Man Agassi by going 8-0 against him. Peak Lendl struggled with Old Man Connors by going 17-0 against him. Peak Lendl and Peak Federer are arguably the worst players ever. They flat-out sucked.

However, Peak Djokovic from 2014-present has owned Old Man Fed by going 9-6 against him.
I hate to argue with you, but flaw in your argumentation is a statement that any other Federer apart from 2015 and later Federer is a peak Federer. This is based on Federer self-assessment. As opposed to many others, I consider you more than reasonable; in fact very clever and honest. Do you think that this statement should be ignored or taken very seriously. Djokovi recently said that he played USO2018 and China as well as ever. I accept this statement and consider that this is the best version of Djokovic.
 

Federev

Hall of Fame


This is peak federer vs 35 year old 11 year older agassi

Look at how much federer is struggling against grandpa agassi
He was down a break in the third set and barely edged it out before agassi became tired

Peak fed was struggling with agassi's ballstriking

This is despite agassi being 11 years older!!
We all know how much fed fanboys cry about federer just being 6 years older than Djokovic

Also agassi had an extremely weak draw and barely beat journeyman ginepri in the semi yet he gave peak federer quite a scare LOL

Semi-retired Sampras owned Agassi in 2002 USO but absolute peak Federer was struggling against grandpa agassi in 2004, 2005 USO LMAO

Just shows how overrated Federer's peak is being matched from the baseline from a grandpa who is 11 years older LOL
Look how peak Djokovic struggled against past prime Fed at RG 11 (lost) , WB '12 (lost) and almost lost to him at WB '14 and continued to lose to him pretty evenly in BO3s' until Fed's injury in 2016.

Look how Grampererer destroyed 5 years young Nadal all year last year and hasn't lost to him since 2014.

We've all got our numbers and assessments dude.
 
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Federev

Hall of Fame
I love the word "struggle" here. Peak Fed was 8-0 vs Agassi. I'll take that kind of "struggle" anytime.

Old man Agassi owned Peak Fed. Agassi won 5 sets against Peak Fed. We shouldn't pay any attention to the fact that Fed won 19 sets and was 8-0 vs Agassi. This includes Fed dishing out 2 bread sticks and a bagel. Agreed. Peak Fed was owned by Old Man Agassi. This is the same exact thing as Old Man Fed going 6-7 vs Djokovic from 2014-2015, or 6-9 vs Djokovic from 2014-present. 0-8 is actually better than 6-9 Congrats to Djoker! And in 2017, Fed was "ducking" Djokovic. It is a guaranteed fact that Djokovic would have triple-bageled Fed, had they met at the 2017 AO, 2017 IW, or even Miami. Better yet, Djoker at the 2018 AO wouldn't have allowed a single point to Federer. But Fed ducked Djoker from 2017-2018. This has all been proven.

Do you guys know who else is overrated? Peak Lendl. Lendl had a tough time against Dinosaur Connors in the 1987 Key Biscayne final. He won that 3-6, 7-6, 7-6, 6-3. This is much closer than Fed's 2005 USO final match with Agassi. Better yet, Lendl squeaked by Connors in a classic 5-setter in the Boca Raton semis in 1986. Peak Lendl "struggled" against Old Man Connor.

Peak Lendl is arguably the worst player in history, based on how much he struggled with Old Man Connors. Of course, I'm leaving out the fact that Lendl ended his career with Connors by winning the last 17 straight matches against him. However, some of the matches were quite close

Bottom line:

Peak Fed struggled with Old Man Agassi by going 8-0 against him. Peak Lendl struggled with Old Man Connors by going 17-0 against him. Peak Lendl and Peak Federer are arguably the worst players ever. They flat-out sucked.

However, Peak Djokovic from 2014-present has owned Old Man Fed by going 9-6 against him.
THIS, THIS, THIS-ERRIFIC.
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
Federer in 2015 was overall clearly better than older Agassi but he played within himself in big matches.
on outdoor HC (agassi's best condition) he wasn't really. Generally, 11-12 Federer is similar to 04 Agassi on all but the quickest HC and same goes for 14-15 Fed and 05 Agassi.

Look at the results
04 AO loses to Safin in 5, not any worse than losing to Nadal in 4
04 IW loses to Federer in a tight match where Fed has to GOAT at the end of the third set to avoid losing, 11 loses to peak Djokovic in a not as tight match in a barrage of UFE.
No one cares about Miami/Canada
Cincy, 04 Agassi way better than 11 obviously and a little worse than 12, although he beat much tougher opponents
USO, 04 Agassi better than 12, about the same as 11

05 AO Agassi>05 AO Federer
05 Miami Agassi's level was more impressive vs Fed than 15 Federer was vs Djokovic at IW (Federer as totally overmatched besides a brief spell when Djokovic went on walkabout, Agassi stuck with Fed the whole time)
Agassi obviously worse at Dubai/Cincy but those surfaces are much faster than the ones at either slam and Federer botted pretty epicly in those too.
USO about the same, Agassi at least played well for 3 sets in the final vs 2.

Essentially, the fact that old Agassi's ballstriking was much better allowed him to at least be competitive against elite baseliners. Old Fed was totally f'd when his serve wasn't working well, which it wasn't at 15 USO or 16 AO because he was totally unable to control the baseline vs any kind of decent baseliner who hit with any depth. There was much less decline in Agassi's pure ballstriking because it wasn't as footwork reliant as Federer's was. Agassi got by just by hitting the ball in the center of strings, every time, if he could get to it. Old Agassi's ballstriking was almost on par with peak Fed's, and at times, better. Just an amazing talent.
 
on outdoor HC (agassi's best condition) he wasn't really. Generally, 11-12 Federer is similar to 04 Agassi on all but the quickest HC and same goes for 14-15 Fed and 05 Agassi.

Look at the results
04 AO loses to Safin in 5, not any worse than losing to Nadal in 4
04 IW loses to Federer in a tight match where Fed has to GOAT at the end of the third set to avoid losing, 11 loses to peak Djokovic in a not as tight match in a barrage of UFE.
No one cares about Miami/Canada
Cincy, 04 Agassi way better than 11 obviously and a little worse than 12, although he beat much tougher opponents
USO, 04 Agassi better than 12, about the same as 11

05 AO Agassi>05 AO Federer
05 Miami Agassi's level was more impressive vs Fed than 15 Federer was vs Djokovic at IW (Federer as totally overmatched besides a brief spell when Djokovic went on walkabout, Agassi stuck with Fed the whole time)
Agassi obviously worse at Dubai/Cincy but those surfaces are much faster than the ones at either slam and Federer botted pretty epicly in those too.
USO about the same, Agassi at least played well for 3 sets in the final vs 2.

Essentially, the fact that old Agassi's ballstriking was much better allowed him to at least be competitive against elite baseliners. Old Fed was totally f'd when his serve wasn't working well, which it wasn't at 15 USO or 16 AO because he was totally unable to control the baseline vs any kind of decent baseliner who hit with any depth. There was much less decline in Agassi's pure ballstriking because it wasn't as footwork reliant as Federer's was. Agassi got by just by hitting the ball in the center of strings, every time, if he could get to it. Old Agassi's ballstriking was almost on par with peak Fed's, and at times, better. Just an amazing talent.
Great poast!

Only a note: Agassi wasn't bad in 04 Miami at all, Calleri just had a GOAT day - was making immense angles in the first set especially. Canada yes, it's only one tournament though (and lesser tournaments are indeed irrelevant for that).
And Fed's attacking baseline play was working quite well throughout USO 15, he just choked the final big time. Not much to do with Djokovic suffocating him as he did at AO, just a slew of errors every time he had a look. A very annoying loss since he was really playing slam-winning tennis...
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
Great poast!

Only a note: Agassi wasn't bad in 04 Miami at all, Calleri just had a GOAT day - was making immense angles in the first set especially. Canada yes, it's only one tournament though (and lesser tournaments are indeed irrelevant for that).
And Fed's attacking baseline play was working quite well throughout USO 15, he just choked the final big time. Not much to do with Djokovic suffocating him as he did at AO, just a slew of errors every time he had a look. A very annoying loss since he was really playing slam-winning tennis...
I think the attacking baseline play works very well against Darcis and Gasquet who can't hit 3 balls past the service line if their lives depended on it, and inconsistent Wawrinka. Against Djokovic who can hit with consistent depth from nearly any position (although he had plenty of lapses in that match) it very quickly falls apart. At AO he was just schooled the first 2 sets, he has nothing at this age besides epic serve botting to counter a Djokovic in that form, but even then in the 4th set he had looks and it was a similar deal to USO. Had 0-30 in the first game and then netted 4 straight routine returns, 2-3 on second serves i think.

While his baseline game in 2017 was a little better, I think Nadal's depth of shot made him look better than he was and Djokovic would have exposed him, similar thing. When watching tennis, I feel a lot of people just watch where someone hits the ball, where they were when they hit the ball makes a ton of difference. Actually it means everything. Hence the great "Nadal effect" of everyone GOATing against him.
 
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