Peak Federer is overrated

metsman said:
on outdoor HC (agassi's best condition) he wasn't really. Generally, 11-12 Federer is similar to 04 Agassi on all but the quickest HC and same goes for 14-15 Fed and 05 Agassi.

Look at the results
04 AO loses to Safin in 5, not any worse than losing to Nadal in 4
04 IW loses to Federer in a tight match where Fed has to GOAT at the end of the third set to avoid losing, 11 loses to peak Djokovic in a not as tight match in a barrage of UFE.
No one cares about Miami/Canada
Cincy, 04 Agassi way better than 11 obviously and a little worse than 12, although he beat much tougher opponents
USO, 04 Agassi better than 12, about the same as 11

05 AO Agassi>05 AO Federer
05 Miami Agassi's level was more impressive vs Fed than 15 Federer was vs Djokovic at IW (Federer as totally overmatched besides a brief spell when Djokovic went on walkabout, Agassi stuck with Fed the whole time)
Agassi obviously worse at Dubai/Cincy but those surfaces are much faster than the ones at either slam and Federer botted pretty epicly in those too.
USO about the same, Agassi at least played well for 3 sets in the final vs 2.

Essentially, the fact that old Agassi's ballstriking was much better allowed him to at least be competitive against elite baseliners. Old Fed was totally f'd when his serve wasn't working well, which it wasn't at 15 USO or 16 AO because he was totally unable to control the baseline vs any kind of decent baseliner who hit with any depth. There was much less decline in Agassi's pure ballstriking because it wasn't as footwork reliant as Federer's was. Agassi got by just by hitting the ball in the center of strings, every time, if he could get to it. Old Agassi's ballstriking was almost on par with peak Fed's, and at times, better. Just an amazing talent.
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Yeah on HC older Agassi especially in big slam matches held his own better.

But I was talking across the entire year.
 
metsman said:
I think the attacking baseline play works very well against Darcis and Gasquet who can't hit 3 balls past the service line if their lives depended on it, and inconsistent Wawrinka. Against Djokovic who can hit with consistent depth from nearly any position (although he had plenty of lapses in that match) it very quickly falls apart. At AO he was just schooled the first 2 sets, he has nothing at this age besides epic serve botting to counter a Djokovic in that form, but even then in the 4th set he had looks and it was a similar deal to USO. Had 0-30 in the first game and then netted 4 straight routine returns, 2-3 on second serves i think.

While his baseline game in 2017 was a little better, I think Nadal's depth of shot made him look better than he was and Djokovic would have exposed him, similar thing. When watching tennis, I feel a lot of people just watch where someone hits the ball, where they were when they hit the ball makes a ton of difference. Actually it means everything. Hence the great "Nadal effect" of everyone GOATing against him.
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Superb post.

*awaits “won 53 of 56 sets vs players not Djokovic between W15 and AO 16”
 
I can't believe I'm wading into this moronic thread, but let's just briefly review peak Fed's best years, shall we?

2004:

Won three majors

W-L record: 74–6 (92.50%)

2006:

Won three majors

W-L record: 92–5 (94.84%)

2007:

Won three majors

W-L record: 68–9 (88.31%)

So according to some hate-filled poster, Federer was "overrated" in his peak years.

Compared to who, exactly?
 
BeatlesFan said:
I can't believe I'm wading into this moronic thread, but let's just briefly review peak Fed's best years, shall we?

2004:

Won three majors

W-L record: 74–6 (92.50%)

2006:

Won three majors

W-L record: 92–5 (94.84%)

2007:

Won three majors

W-L record: 68–9 (88.31%)

So according to some hate-filled poster, Federer was "overrated" in his peak years.

Compared to who, exactly?
Click to expand...
God? Other than that they all need to shut the hell up.
 
Objective observer said:


This is peak federer vs 35 year old 11 year older agassi

Look at how much federer is struggling against grandpa agassi
He was down a break in the third set and barely edged it out before agassi became tired

Peak fed was struggling with agassi's ballstriking

This is despite agassi being 11 years older!!
We all know how much fed fanboys cry about federer just being 6 years older than Djokovic

Also agassi had an extremely weak draw and barely beat journeyman ginepri in the semi yet he gave peak federer quite a scare LOL

Semi-retired Sampras owned Agassi in 2002 USO but absolute peak Federer was struggling against grandpa agassi in 2004, 2005 USO LMAO

Just shows how overrated Federer's peak is being matched from the baseline from a grandpa who is 11 years older LOL
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At least Fed won those matches. ;)

On your '11 years' mark.. at WB17 35.9yo Fed lost a combined ZERO sets against ALL 24.9yo players (nor anyone else), includes Djokodalray. ;)

AO18 36.5yo Fed lost ZERO sets combined against ALL 25.5yo players, and lost ONLY 2sets against the whole field only bc he choked those 2 sets. ;)

Cinci2012 30.9yo Fed won and bageled 25.2yo peakiest-Djokovic. ;)

WTF2011 30.2yo Fed won and allowed 25.5yo peak-Nadal 3 games, includes a bagel. ;)

You were saying? :)
 
MichaelNadal said:
Then you should read more, they definitely are, which to me is hilarious bc they have no reason to be. Yet they are as sensitive as the inside of a peach.
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I'm Fedal and I was including you and jm along with everybody else that posts here in my appraisal. Federer and Nadal fans suck equally.
 
Ann said:
I'm Fedal and I was including you and jm along with everybody else that posts here in my appraisal. Federer and Nadal fans suck equally.
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And me too, maybe more than others because I know better and still stick around.
 
Ann said:
I'm Fedal and I was including you and jm along with everybody else that posts here in my appraisal. Federer and Nadal fans suck equally.
Click to expand...

Tbh even though I know there's bad apples in every base, I just don't see many horrible Rafa fans. There are a select few that don't like Fed, like Octo that go on and on, but it's really literally 3-4 posters, the rest of us just love Nadal. We don't start as much **** collectively. Djokovic fans have been better lately too. Hell, on that tangent, maybe we are all becoming more mature, or ready to see the next-gen break out, but lately there's sort of a peace between all of us. The younger/new posters are the ones that troll. I think they are all so great at this point, it's splitting hairs.
 
MichaelNadal said:
Then you should read more, they definitely are, which to me is hilarious bc they have no reason to be. Yet they are as sensitive as the inside of a peach.
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That's the conundrum though.
If fans leave the world 'ignorant' to facts just to prove that they are 'secure' by staying mum, then the world stays ignorant. If fans try to educate with facts, they are then called 'insecure'.

It's lose/lose, but at least the 2nd path leaves the world a bit less ignorant. What's in a name? ;)
 
oldmanfan said:
That's the conundrum though.
If fans leave the world 'ignorant' to facts just to prove that they are 'secure' by staying mum, then the world stays ignorant. If fans try to educate with facts, they are then called 'insecure'.

It's lose/lose, but at least the 2nd path leaves the world a bit less ignorant. What's in a name? ;)
Click to expand...

You have a point there :)
Idk I just feel like if I was a Maestronian, I would slay without it being so "but... but.... but...." they really have nothing to prove, Fed is clearly the GOAT imo.
 
MichaelNadal said:
You have a point there :)
Idk I just feel like if I was a Maestronian, I would slay without it being so "but... but.... but...." they really have nothing to prove, Fed is clearly the GOAT imo.
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I hear ya, but it's hard sometimes. Imagine fans of NextGen disparaging Nadal's clay mastery and RG wins, saying he would win next to none RGs in any other era.

It can be ignored, but it will be tough for Nadalfans to. This is what grates some Fedfans when 'weak era' is brought up. The man is still owning the tour at 35yo+! The only reason it's not worse is that he had GOATs Djokodal to keep him in check. lul
 
oldmanfan said:
I hear ya, but it's hard sometimes. Imagine fans of NextGen disparaging Nadal's clay mastery and RG wins, saying he would win next to none RGs in any other era.

It can be ignored, but it will be tough for Nadalfans to. This is what grates some Fedfans when 'weak era' is brought up. The man is still owning the tour at 35yo+! The only reason it's not worse is that he had GOATs Djokodal to keep him in check. lul
Click to expand...

Ok you fully convinced me now, I'd act a fool :p
 
BeatlesFan said:
I can't believe I'm wading into this moronic thread, but let's just briefly review peak Fed's best years, shall we?

2004:

Won three majors

W-L record: 74–6 (92.50%)

2006:

Won three majors

W-L record: 92–5 (94.84%)

2007:

Won three majors

W-L record: 68–9 (88.31%)

So according to some hate-filled poster, Federer was "overrated" in his peak years.

Compared to who, exactly?
Click to expand...
If you aren't guaranteed clowns like Roddick and Baghdatis in slam finals, then slam titles aren't guaranteed either. The competition changed dramatically after the vacuum window of 2003--2007 got shut.
 
Anyone can handpick matches during ATGs peaks & ridicule them.

Djoker was down two sets to love vs Kandyman in Wimbledon 2015 .

Who's better '05 USO Agassi or '15 Wimbly Kandy?

No peak player in history can ever play their peak tennis 100% of the time , we aren't machines.

Selectively slicing out sets from individual matches will always show this .

An interesting stat to view would be , slams won without the loss of any sets ...

& even then you could theoretically play @ a lower level & still not drop a set en-route to winning a slam vs playing @ a higher level whilst still getting straight-setted by some lower ranked player that's playing lights out.

Small probabilities I know , but it shows how basic we can all be when it comes to judging things we see.
 
Objective observer said:


This is peak federer vs 35 year old 11 year older agassi

Look at how much federer is struggling against grandpa agassi
He was down a break in the third set and barely edged it out before agassi became tired

Peak fed was struggling with agassi's ballstriking

This is despite agassi being 11 years older!!
We all know how much fed fanboys cry about federer just being 6 years older than Djokovic

Also agassi had an extremely weak draw and barely beat journeyman ginepri in the semi yet he gave peak federer quite a scare LOL

Semi-retired Sampras owned Agassi in 2002 USO but absolute peak Federer was struggling against grandpa agassi in 2004, 2005 USO LMAO

Just shows how overrated Federer's peak is being matched from the baseline from a grandpa who is 11 years older LOL
Click to expand...

Of course he struggled with Agassi's ballstriking! Agassi's one of the best ballstrikers all time and that hadn't diminished in 2005 like you seem to think it did. When a guy like that goes aggressive off any ball he can get even a semi-clean look at, you're going to have a tough time no matter who you are, especially considering the speed of the surface; that's no knock on Federer, that's a credit to Andre Agassi's A: otherworldly hand-eye coordination and B: ridiculously clean and efficient groundstrokes. Make no mistake, very few players could have withstood that kind of consistent barrage on the faster USO hard courts.

Grandpa Agassi indeed. This is what you get when you use YouTube highlights as the sole basis of player evaluation. Good grief. This is right up there with the people that argue that Roddick's forehand was never big.
 
BeatlesFan said:
I can't believe I'm wading into this moronic thread, but let's just briefly review peak Fed's best years, shall we?

2004:

Won three majors

W-L record: 74–6 (92.50%)

2006:

Won three majors

W-L record: 92–5 (94.84%)

2007:

Won three majors

W-L record: 68–9 (88.31%)

So according to some hate-filled poster, Federer was "overrated" in his peak years.

Compared to who, exactly?
Click to expand...


That's an easy one ...

Compared to when , not who ...

Compared to specifically carved out portions of matches that lay within your aforementioned timeframe.
 
MichaelNadal said:
You know they are insecure. It's a hallmark trait of Maestronians.

VamosBrigade: Proud
Ultronians: Reaching beyond the pram
Maestronians : Insecure
Click to expand...

I always found it to be the other way around actually.

As we're replying to the insecure threads from the Nadalovic fanbase.

Insecurity is taking the time to constantly bash Fed's achievements in the first place as opposed to talking about your own favorites in general first & foremost.

I really appreciate Djoker's 14/14 & NCGS ...

Those are achievements that Fed won't ever have (greed)

I'm worried that Djoker will tie fed in WTFs in the coming weeks , despite it being a poetic return slap given how Fed tied Djoker @ AO earlier this year with 6 being the magic number in both situations along with joint ownership of #1 along the way.

If Djoker reaches 6 Wimbledons in the next 2 editions then we can become to feel insecure about the Wimbledon record lol.

I take it as a positive anyway as Federer always seems to be in the conversation .

The worst thing is to not receive a reaction.

I'm not sure if Fed would be a pure Babyface considering how much heat he generates around this place .

Djoker is heel through & through . That night @ USO in '08 QFs was hilarious.


P.s Djoker is the only guy that gives Nadal the yips from baseline rallies which is a cool bonus :p
 
Last edited:
Ann said:
God? Other than that they all need to shut the hell up.
Click to expand...
I get loving a certain player, I never got hating their rivals. Some people here start endless threads hating on Fed (or Rafa or Nole) which just showcases the collective inadequacy of their own lives.

Why not just announce to the world that you have no life, no career, no friends and utterly no joy in your lives? Fandom is about loving a certain player, getting excited about their matches, but accepting they will experience bitter losses. You love 'em anyway. You don't hate their rivals, you respect them because on certain days they're just better than your guy. It's not about loathing and obsessing over rivals who occasionally best them and then posting 5,000 threads a week:

Fed Weak Era!
Fed Skips Clay, what a loser!
Fed Only Won Because He's Lucky!
Fed is fat. Mirka is fat!
His twins are ugly and raised by nannies!

It's not calling the greatest player to ever hold a racket "Fraud" or "Fred" or whatever deleterious nickname you pull out of a hat to make yourself feel better about yourself. Get amped up over whoever your guy is and be endlessly happy when they win a match or a tournament. If I can love Rafa when he's beaten Roger's ass into the ground for the past 13 years, then anyone can embrace the rival of their favorite.

Rant over. :p
 
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Reactions: Ann
Enga said:
Federer seems to catch the most **** for not being a perfect tennis player.
Click to expand...

Because Federer is the most accomplished tennis player in history in terms of achievements.

Djoker is closing the gap however despite still being clearly behind , time will tell.
 
metsman said:
I think the attacking baseline play works very well against Darcis and Gasquet who can't hit 3 balls past the service line if their lives depended on it, and inconsistent Wawrinka. Against Djokovic who can hit with consistent depth from nearly any position (although he had plenty of lapses in that match) it very quickly falls apart. At AO he was just schooled the first 2 sets, he has nothing at this age besides epic serve botting to counter a Djokovic in that form, but even then in the 4th set he had looks and it was a similar deal to USO. Had 0-30 in the first game and then netted 4 straight routine returns, 2-3 on second serves i think.

While his baseline game in 2017 was a little better, I think Nadal's depth of shot made him look better than he was and Djokovic would have exposed him, similar thing. When watching tennis, I feel a lot of people just watch where someone hits the ball, where they were when they hit the ball makes a ton of difference. Actually it means everything. Hence the great "Nadal effect" of everyone GOATing against him.
Click to expand...





Agree Federer struggles with depth from the baseline

Forget grandpa, even peak Federer was having quite some trouble with Agassi here as I have shown
 
BeatlesFan said:
I can't believe I'm wading into this moronic thread, but let's just briefly review peak Fed's best years, shall we?

2004:

Won three majors

W-L record: 74–6 (92.50%)

2006:

Won three majors

W-L record: 92–5 (94.84%)

2007:

Won three majors

W-L record: 68–9 (88.31%)

So according to some hate-filled poster, Federer was "overrated" in his peak years.

Compared to who, exactly?
Click to expand...




Level of play has nothing to do with achievements

Also I don't hate Federer but I do dislike some of his annoying fans who criticize the person instead of the argument
 
KINGROGER said:
Superb post.

*awaits “won 53 of 56 sets vs players not Djokovic between W15 and AO 16”
Click to expand...


Looking at Agassis path to USO 2005 final vs Federer's in 2015 it's clear who dominated his opponents more

You can't ignore Fed crushing a player like Wawrinka while Agassi didn't even face any top 30 and still had multiple 5 setters
 
FD3S said:
Of course he struggled with Agassi's ballstriking! Agassi's one of the best ballstrikers all time and that hadn't diminished in 2005 like you seem to think it did. When a guy like that goes aggressive off any ball he can get even a semi-clean look at, you're going to have a tough time no matter who you are, especially considering the speed of the surface; that's no knock on Federer, that's a credit to Andre Agassi's A: otherworldly hand-eye coordination and B: ridiculously clean and efficient groundstrokes. Make no mistake, very few players could have withstood that kind of consistent barrage on the faster USO hard courts.

Grandpa Agassi indeed. This is what you get when you use YouTube highlights as the sole basis of player evaluation. Good grief. This is right up there with the people that argue that Roddick's forehand was never big.
Click to expand...



I was not saying that Agassi was bad in 2005

Rather I was saying the opposite: If Agassi at 35 can still be so good no reason Federer can't be even better
 
Objective observer said:
Looking at Agassis path to USO 2005 final vs Federer's in 2015 it's clear who dominated his opponents more

You can't ignore Fed crushing a player like Wawrinka while Agassi didn't even face any top 30 and still had multiple 5 setters
Click to expand...

Wawrinka played a terrible match. Blake and yes even the maligned Ginepri played much better - Blake especially probably would have gone 5 sets with either finalist in 2015 IMO.
 
It is true that you look better than you really are against inferior opposition, and you look worse than you really are against superior one. This still holds true for Federer...
 
NatF said:
Wawrinka played a terrible match. Blake and yes even the maligned Ginepri played much better - Blake especially probably would have gone 5 sets with either finalist in 2015 IMO.
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Wawrinka beat Djokovic the next year and beat Djokovic at RG that year

I have a feeling it was Federer who made him play terrible and he would have done much better against Djokovic..
 
And fed wasn't really at his peak 05... I would say 07 was peak fed. His defensive game wasn't as good. He picked up way more shots in 07 than 05.
 
Objective observer said:
Wawrinka beat Djokovic the next year and beat Djokovic at RG that year

I have a feeling it was Federer who made him play terrible and he would have done much better against Djokovic..
Click to expand...

Wawrinka also beat Federer at the FO, Djokovic in 2016 at the USO was lucky to make it to the final.

He was just terrible IMO, he's given Federer tough matches on HC before even if he's not gotten the win. Both he and Cilic were pathetic in those SF's - though Cilic was injured. Neither guy had tougher draws to the final than Agassi based on how the opponents actually played.
 
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