Peak Federer is overrated

NatF said:
Wawrinka also beat Federer at the FO, Djokovic in 2016 at the USO was lucky to make it to the final.

He was just terrible IMO, he's given Federer tough matches on HC before even if he's not gotten the win. Both he and Cilic were pathetic in those SF's - though Cilic was injured. Neither guy had tougher draws to the final than Agassi based on how the opponents actually played.
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Federer also was spectacular though and everyone was talking about how well he was playing

He was also considered slight favourite before the final against Djokovic
Let's not act like he was a huge underdog
 
Objective observer said:
Any Federer fan will tell you that Agassi was playing badly in that match
Take their 2004 IW match for example or 2004 USO
Click to expand...

And Dubai a few months later when Agassi got trashed even worse? How many times are you going to blame it on poor play? US Open 05 was windy conditions/borderline storm
 
Objective observer said:
Federer also was spectacular though and everyone was talking about how well he was playing

He was also considered slight favourite before the final against Djokovic
Let's not act like he was a huge underdog
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Who's acting like he was an underdog? Evidently you've gone in here with a bone to pick, try to cut out the strawman arguments.

Federer did look very good at the USO in 2015, I thought he played very well against Wawrinka - not so much against Djokovic because he was making bad mistakes in winning positions in rallies too frequently.
 
NatF said:
Who's acting like he was an underdog? Evidently you've gone in here with a bone to pick, try to cut out the strawman arguments.

Federer did look very good at the USO in 2015, I thought he played very well against Wawrinka - not so much against Djokovic because he was making bad mistakes in winning positions in rallies too frequently.
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I agree he couldn't handle the pressure in the final

Still my point is that Federer was playing very well at USO 2015 which you pretty much agree with
 
I think the peak of skills of a player is between the first and the last multi-slam winning season/streak. One title can happen, but to win two you have to be really great.

Peak:

Djokovic 2011-2018
Nadal 2008-RG18
Federer 2004-AO18

Obviously there can be slumps between those years, but doesn't mean you were too young or too old, otherwise you wouldn't have won before and after.

Some will say: Federer WI15-AO16 won zero slam but you would have claimed he was at peak? True. But he lost 3 slams in a row + a YEC to only one of the greatest ever. The others were destroyed 59 sets to 3. Luckily Federer in 2017-18 confirmed that winning 3 slams out of 5.
 
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Slams meetings of the Big3 between their first and last multi-slam seasons (2011-17):

Djokovic 11-6
Nadal 7-5
Federer 3-10

Slams won:

Djokovic 11
Nadal 7
Federer 3
 
Heuristic said:
And fed wasn't really at his peak 05... I would say 07 was peak fed. His defensive game wasn't as good. He picked up way more shots in 07 than 05.
Click to expand...

His FH wasn’t as good in 2007 though. He started doing that whipping follow through motion, shorter takeback which resulted in a bit less power and easy winners. Explains his struggles at W/Montreal/USO with Nadal and Djokovic.
 
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Fedr's return/baseline game decline lines up very clearly with his losses/wins to MC 14 - AO 16 ********, except that terrible USO 15 choke. Look at all the other matches, though:

MC 14 - Fedr unbroken, wins in 2 (breaks 3 times)

Wim 14 - Fedr breaks 3 times, but all in the 4th set when Djovak tightened up. Other than that, no breaks and nary a BP by Fedr, hence the loss. (Djovk could have won in str8s actually - he had a SP on serve in 1st set TB.)

Shanghai 14 - Fedr unbroken, wins in 2 (breaks twice)

IW 15 - Fedr breaks once, loses in 3 (broken 4 times, should've lost in str8s had Djovak not decided to throw in a quadruple fault for fun)

Dubai 15 - Fedr unbroken, wins in 2 (breaks twice)

Rome 15 - Fedr never breaks, loses in 2 (broken twice)

Wim 15 - Fedr breaks once, loses in 4 (broken four times)

Cincy 15 - Fedr unbroken, wins in 2 (breaks once)

YEC RR - Fedr broken once, wins in 2 (breaks four times, three of them in set 2 which Djoe half-tanked)

YEC F - Fedr never breaks, loses in 2


Conclusion: old ****** needed to cling to his serve at all costs to beat the younger -ovic. Even though his botting was at its peak, it's very tough to keep a clean sheet against Djokester, amazing that old fedr managed it 4 times in two years. Fed's return game was mug stuff compared to the days of youre, though, so once he was broken, he was toast, unable to break back. Excepting two throwaway sets by the ******** when he got broken thrice in each, Fedr could only break when his botting worked perfectly, otherwise if even the serve wasn't enough, then the return wasn't, either.
USO 15 was different from all others in that Federer was actually in ominous form and had a very real chance that he absolutely shyted up. That one is not an age thing, as we've seen old AA stay mentally strong and run the best HC players close - just a disgusting choke, far from the first time (though when he was younger, he'd take those to five except vs Claydal).
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
Fedr's return/baseline game decline lines up very clearly with his losses/wins to MC 14 - AO 16 ********, except that terrible USO 15 choke. Look at all the other matches, though:

MC 14 - Fedr unbroken, wins in 2 (breaks 3 times)

Wim 14 - Fedr breaks 3 times, but all in the 4th set when Djovak tightened up. Other than that, no breaks and nary a BP by Fedr, hence the loss. (Djovk could have won in str8s actually - he had a SP on serve in 1st set TB.)

Shanghai 14 - Fedr unbroken, wins in 2 (breaks twice)

IW 15 - Fedr breaks once, loses in 3 (broken 4 times, should've lost in str8s had Djovak not decided to throw in a quadruple fault for fun)

Dubai 15 - Fedr unbroken, wins in 2 (breaks twice)

Rome 15 - Fedr never breaks, loses in 2 (broken twice)

Wim 15 - Fedr breaks once, loses in 4 (broken four times)

Cincy 15 - Fedr unbroken, wins in 2 (breaks once)

YEC RR - Fedr broken once, wins in 2 (breaks four times, three of them in set 2 which Djoe half-tanked)

YEC F - Fedr never breaks, loses in 2


Conclusion: old ****** needed to cling to his serve at all costs to beat the younger -ovic. Even though his botting was at its peak, it's very tough to keep a clean sheet against Djokester, amazing that old fedr managed it 4 times in two years. Fed's return game was mug stuff compared to the days of youre, though, so once he was broken, he was toast, unable to break back. Excepting two throwaway sets by the ******** when he got broken thrice in each, Fedr could only break when his botting worked perfectly, otherwise if even the serve wasn't enough, then the return wasn't, either.
USO 15 was different from all others in that Federer was actually in ominous form and had a very real chance that he absolutely shyted up. That one is not an age thing, as we've seen old AA stay mentally strong and run the best HC players close - just a disgusting choke, far from the first time (though when he was younger, he'd take those to five except vs Claydal).
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USO 15 is a clear one

Still, for example in Wimbledon 15 Federer served brilliantly against Murray but failed badly in the final
Even if he was outmatched from the ground no reason for his serving to be worse

Murray is about as good a returner as Djokovic on grass
 
Objective observer said:
USO 15 is a clear one

Still, for example in Wimbledon 15 Federer served brilliantly against Murray but failed badly in the final
Even if he was outmatched from the ground no reason for his serving to be worse

Murray is about as good a returner as Djokovic on grass
Click to expand...

Not in 2015, though.
Federer served well in the first two sets, only broken once. Had Djokovic got hesitant serving to stay in the first set ike Murray did, Federer could've been two sets to love up again. Instead, it was one set all with Fed barely wrestling the 2nd set after saving 7 SPs, and Djok didn't seem any more tired for that, so it looked like an increasingly uphill battle - a different situation, both physically and mentally, and that's when his game began to leak.
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
Not in 2015, though.
Federer served well in the first two sets, only broken once. Had Djokovic got hesitant serving to stay in the first set ike Murray did, Federer could've been two sets to love up again. Instead, it was one set all with Fed barely wrestling the 2nd set after saving 7 SPs, and Djok didn't seem any more tired for that, so it looked like an increasingly uphill battle - a different situation, both physically and mentally, and that's when his game began to leak.
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Yeah I agree

Federer managed to break early in the first set but Djokovic broke back and after that he was always behind
 
Lew said:
I think the peak of skills of a player is between the first and the last multi-slam winning season/streak. One title can happen, but to win two you have to be really great.

Peak:

Djokovic 2011-2018
Nadal 2008-RG18
Federer 2004-AO18

Obviously there can be slumps between those years, but doesn't mean you were too young or too old, otherwise you wouldn't have won before and after.

Some will say: Federer WI15-AO16 won zero slam but you would have claimed he was at peak? True. But he lost 3 slams in a row + a YEC to only one of the greatest ever. The others were destroyed 59 sets to 3. Luckily Federer in 2017-18 confirmed that winning 3 slams out of 5.
Click to expand...
Federer declined in 2013-2016 then improved in 2017.
 
The mistake OP is making is not recognizing that Agassi was a huge underachiever in his prime years with all his personal problems, and that if he had loved the sport back then and put in the same kind of effort Federer did in his prime, he may very well be in the GOAT discussion today.

As it was, an age-declined version of Agassi was about on par with the player he was in his prime years because he was actually putting in the effort in his later years.

And on hardcourt, he was an especially great player. A dedicated Agassi would have likely dominated the AO to where Federer and Djokovic were still chasing his total there, and won at least another couple of USO titles.
 
Not sure anyone playing at 5.5 or below has much idea how good Federer is

It will all just be a mystery at that level


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Heuristic said:
And Dubai a few months later when Agassi got trashed even worse? How many times are you going to blame it on poor play? US Open 05 was windy conditions/borderline storm
Click to expand...
it's not a matter of blame, here's the full breakdown of those 8 matches

03 TMC RR-both guys played well, Federer barely won
03 TMC F-Federer played one of his best matches ever and destroyed Agassi who played decent 2 of the 3 sets and godawful the other set.
04 IW SF-Federer started slow eventually got cooking, but still Agassi came very close to winning in the third
04 USO QF-Federer's BH went off for a bit, Agassi played extremely well, the weather probably extended the match to a 5th, where Federer adapted a bit better
05 AO/Dubai-Agassi played bad, peak Fed rolled him
05 Miami-Agassi played about as well as he could at that time, and Federer was also at his best and edged him in a tight two setter.
05 USO-Similar story to 04 USO QF except Agassi was a step slower, didn't have the physical ability to keep fighting after losing the third, and no rain delay/weather conditions to save him so Federer beat him easily in the 4th.

Overall, this is about how you'd expect an aging ATG to perform against a peak ATG who is also better. Plenty of tight matches, a few whitewashings, but no actualized victories and a only a couple matches where victory was even within grasp.

The reasonable conclusion from their whole matchup is that a lot of is dependent on Federer's BH consistency. If it's on, Agassi doesn't have many weaknesses to attack, although a younger better moving Agassi will still be very competitive with peak Federer, if it's not, Agassi can exploit it better than just about anyone not named Nadal can. As a result, peak for peak it's close to even on slow/medium HC (maybe 55-45 Fed) where Fed's BH has a bigger chance of going off for extended stretches due to the higher bounce and the conditions just benefits Agassi more, and a clear edge to Fed (about 70-30) on faster ones where Fed's BH is not going off for long enough to cost him a whole match.
 
Thread pretty much shows how little OP knows about the match. Federer made SO MANY unforced errors in that final. He honestly didn't play very well, and still reached a level late in the match that Agassi couldn't match. I think he had over 30 unforced errors on the backhand alone by the end? He just hit through it until he had the edge, but definitely not one of his better performances in a slam final.

http://www.tennisabstract.com/charting/20050911-M-US_Open-F-Roger_Federer-Andre_Agassi.html

He played a not-great match. Agassi also saved a ton of BP's. This match is more like a 2007 FO final for Federer than say a 2010 AO Final. Not a good match to use for "Peak" Fed. Peak ********, maybe.
 
Maybe his opponents weren't as the super highest quality that they would become in later years. However, one thing that stands out when you look at Fed's highlights from those years is how ridiculously fast he moved around the court and how he pummeled his forehand at every opportunity. The one thing I remember from 2004(after US Open) was Federer was being talked about for his 'fearhand', nobody had ever seen a forehand like that before. Scary weapon that would take the field years to catch up to and that was correct.
 
Cup8489 said:
Thread pretty much shows how little OP knows about the match. Federer made SO MANY unforced errors in that final. He honestly didn't play very well, and still reached a level late in the match that Agassi couldn't match. I think he had over 30 unforced errors on the backhand alone by the end? He just hit through it until he had the edge, but definitely not one of his better performances in a slam final.

http://www.tennisabstract.com/charting/20050911-M-US_Open-F-Roger_Federer-Andre_Agassi.html

He played a not-great match. Agassi also saved a ton of BP's. This match is more like a 2007 FO final for Federer than say a 2010 AO Final. Not a good match to use for "Peak" Fed. Peak ********, maybe.
Click to expand...

People view his 2003-2007 era with rose-tinted glasses. Fact is he had some stinker finals. Two come to mind:

2006 AO final. He was trailing a set and a break to Baghdatis and a break point to go down a double break. Virtually the match right there, but he turned it all around big time.
2007 AO final. He made a ton of UFE in the first set, still bagged it due to Gonzalez choking on those 2 set points. After that he cleaned up his game.

The really clean, immortal matches people remember are 2004 US Open final, 2005 Wimbledon final, 2006 Wimbledon finals, 2007 AO semis.
 
smoledman said:
People view his 2003-2007 era with rose-tinted glasses. Fact is he had some stinker finals. Two come to mind:

2006 AO final. He was trailing a set and a break to Baghdatis and a break point to go down a double break. Virtually the match right there, but he turned it all around big time.
2007 AO final. He made a ton of UFE in the first set, still bagged it due to Gonzalez choking on those 2 set points. After that he cleaned up his game.

The really clean, immortal matches people remember are 2004 US Open final, 2005 Wimbledon final, 2006 Wimbledon finals, 2007 AO semis.
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Baghdatis was playing some high quality tennis from the baseline for the first 2 sets , Fed did really well to take that second set.

Still if Fed was down 0-2 I think he could have still won it , I doubt the loss of the second was the reason why Baghdatis only managed 2 games in the 3rd & 4th sets.

Most low ranked players can only keep up ATG level tennis for around 1.5 - 2 sets before they drop off back closer to what their rankings suggest.

But yes it wasn't Fed's best performance , but who knows how much of that was due to the deep heavy hitting of Baghy from the baseline rallies & how much of it was due to Fed's own game.
 
FedFosterWallace said:
As the duly appointed TTW Salt Chronicler™, I am here to gauge the salinity levels and record the results.

It’s for science. Have I come to the right place?
Click to expand...
I humbly request you re-adjust my fedr salinity reading to "minimal", I believe your reading may have been off the last time

Instead, I also request you adjust my djkr salinity reading to "maximum", because I'm salty that he became no 1 by default (although I fully admit he deserves the position after winning two slams this year)
 
smoledman said:
People view his 2003-2007 era with rose-tinted glasses. Fact is he had some stinker finals. Two come to mind:

2006 AO final. He was trailing a set and a break to Baghdatis and a break point to go down a double break. Virtually the match right there, but he turned it all around big time.
2007 AO final. He made a ton of UFE in the first set, still bagged it due to Gonzalez choking on those 2 set points. After that he cleaned up his game.

The really clean, immortal matches people remember are 2004 US Open final, 2005 Wimbledon final, 2006 Wimbledon finals, 2007 AO semis.
Click to expand...

it wasn't a ton of UEs, but yeah , there were some UEs from fed (as well as from Gonzalez) . That was due to windy conditions.
last 2 sets were epic level from Fed, up there with the Roddick semi.
so that final was nowhere remotely close to a stinker. It was a great perf. from Federer.
Gonzalez didn't choke at all on either of those SPs. Federer saved them both with great clutch play.
 
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Cup8489 said:
Thread pretty much shows how little OP knows about the match. Federer made SO MANY unforced errors in that final. He honestly didn't play very well, and still reached a level late in the match that Agassi couldn't match. I think he had over 30 unforced errors on the backhand alone by the end? He just hit through it until he had the edge, but definitely not one of his better performances in a slam final.

http://www.tennisabstract.com/charting/20050911-M-US_Open-F-Roger_Federer-Andre_Agassi.html

He played a not-great match. Agassi also saved a ton of BP's. This match is more like a 2007 FO final for Federer than say a 2010 AO Final. Not a good match to use for "Peak" Fed. Peak ********, maybe.
Click to expand...

Federer's level did dip in 2nd set and first half of 3rd set (mainly BH), but match was hardly at 2007 FO level.
He played great tennis in the 1st set and then 2nd half of 3rd set and the 4th set.

Federer served at ~75% for the match. Still Agassi was able to break 3 times. great returning and hitting from him.

As per official stats, Federer ended at
69 winners to 37 UEs.
Also forced 35 errors from Agassi.
http://web.archive.org/web/20051111...n.org:80/en_US/scores/stats/day20/1701ms.html
 
Lew said:
Slams meetings of the Big3 between their first and last multi-slam seasons (2011-17):

Djokovic 11-6
Nadal 7-5
Federer 3-10

Slams won:

Djokovic 11
Nadal 7
Federer 3
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Dude is a whole generation older than Djokdal.

LOL.

Of course he should look obviously worse in the time frame you pick out - which is way past his prime and very much includes some of theirs.

It never ceases to amaze, how often Fed’s generational gap with Djokdal is totally ignored.

The fact that you’re still battling w ancient Fed just adds more credibility to his GOATNESS.
 
Objective observer said:


This is peak federer vs 35 year old 11 year older agassi

Look at how much federer is struggling against grandpa agassi
He was down a break in the third set and barely edged it out before agassi became tired

Peak fed was struggling with agassi's ballstriking

This is despite agassi being 11 years older!!
We all know how much fed fanboys cry about federer just being 6 years older than Djokovic

Also agassi had an extremely weak draw and barely beat journeyman ginepri in the semi yet he gave peak federer quite a scare LOL

Semi-retired Sampras owned Agassi in 2002 USO but absolute peak Federer was struggling against grandpa agassi in 2004, 2005 USO LMAO

Just shows how overrated Federer's peak is being matched from the baseline from a grandpa who is 11 years older LOL
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Im confused fed actually won this match and even delieverd a bakery product set. What you are looking for is peak world no 1 in form djokovic getting destroyed in FINAlS by the likes of slamless mugs and ohers zverev, kachinov, murray, wawrinka

Novak is the king maker. He made wawrinka a multi slam champ, murray one, zverev and kachinov virgin champs. Lol imagine nadal losing a slam final while peak to murray
 
Objective observer said:
Yes he beat 6 year younger Djokovic but useless in slams since 2014

Agassi is 11 years older and took peak Fed to 5 in USO 2004 and would have probably in 2005 if he wasn't tired

Federer couldn't even take Djoker to 5 once in 2015-16
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Yeah but thats the whole point. So not only is novak a weak era slam vulture, his few wins over peak fed and nadal mean even less as fed and nadal themselves are overated and winning weak era slams. And to make it worse peak novak still loses a large number of matches to the old weak version of already weak era inflated fed... So in summary despite the luxury of vulturing doing the weakest era of all time novak does not hold the record in:

Slams
Wtf
M1000
Atp 500
Olympics
Ye no 1
Weeks no 1
No slam final or semi etc records
No consistency records
 
unknown.png
 
I see none other than an one sided match, Agassi was much older and further from his prime at that point. He was there for first 2 sets but first set Federer played too well to negate the effect.

Agassi started to use all his energy to redline in the 2nd set but it won't last long, Federer dropped his initiative in 2nd set to conserve energy.

Its the same story as Djokovic vs Federer in 2015 slam meetings. By the time 3rd set Federer has no more legs as he is 6 yrs older. Age really count a lot.

2004 Agassi vs Federer is more even match.

Don't compare with Sampras vs Agassi, Federer played to Agassi's strengths by not going to net every point.
 
Lew said:
I think the peak of skills of a player is between the first and the last multi-slam winning season/streak. One title can happen, but to win two you have to be really great.

Peak:

Djokovic 2011-2018
Nadal 2008-RG18
Federer 2004-AO18

Obviously there can be slumps between those years, but doesn't mean you were too young or too old, otherwise you wouldn't have won before and after.

Some will say: Federer WI15-AO16 won zero slam but you would have claimed he was at peak? True. But he lost 3 slams in a row + a YEC to only one of the greatest ever. The others were destroyed 59 sets to 3. Luckily Federer in 2017-18 confirmed that winning 3 slams out of 5.
Click to expand...

one of the greatest ever? hahah djokovic is tier 3-4 ATG. Don't mistake career inflation with results. I mean even with inflation he stil does not hold the record in:

Total slams
AO
FO
WIMB
USO
WTF
Masters 1000
Atp 500
Atp 250
Olympics
YE no 1
Weeks no 1
H2H
Any consistency records e.g. slam finals, semis etc, years in top 1 or 2 etc

one of the best ever in what exactly?
 
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