Peak Federer is the second greatest clay court player of all time? Agree?

Where does Peak Federer lie on the clay all time list?

  • 1st

    Votes: 8 7.2%
  • 2nd

    Votes: 11 9.9%
  • 3rd

    Votes: 14 12.6%
  • 4th

    Votes: 17 15.3%
  • 5-7

    Votes: 34 30.6%
  • 8-10

    Votes: 18 16.2%
  • Outside the top 10

    Votes: 9 8.1%

  • Total voters
    111

REKX

Rookie
As a Federer and Nadal fan, I have enjoyed their styles of play more than any other players. Both are attacking in their own way, it’s no wonder they produced matches like Wimbledon 2008.

I think peak Federer beats any other clay court player in history apart from Nadal. He has an incredible record there and without Nadal he would have won multiple French Opens.

I think the Federer from around 2006-2009 is an unbelievably high level. Barring the final of 2008 where Nadal had the mental advantage and 2008 Nadal being the best anyone has played on clay in history, Federer was beating everyone on clay - and in great style. The 2011 match against Djokovic showed that a past prime Federer beats a prime Djokovic.

Federer’s high spin forehand (although not as high as Nadal’s) has been a great shot on clay. And his speed and movement was unbelievable during those years. I know it’s different eras, but Federer beats Borg (who is widely considered the second greatest of all time on clay) at Roland Garros. Federer is technically much better than Borg in almost every aspect, he wins quite easily. (Peak Federer we are talking about here). And he did manage to take sets of Nadal during those years.

Do you agree?
 

Rosstour

G.O.A.T.
I'm not sure if this is still the case, but for a long time Federer was the 2nd-winningest player on clay behind Rafa.

The only thing that could have changed that is Djok, so at worst Fed is the third-winningest player on clay of all time. I'm glad to be corrected if this is not the case.
 

Marco Rotim

Semi-Pro
And his speed and movement was unbelievable during those years. I know it’s different eras, but Federer beats Borg (who is widely considered the second greatest of all time on clay) at Roland Garros. Federer is technically much better than Borg in almost every aspect, he wins quite easily. (Peak Federer we are talking about here).
Do you agree?

Mr Borg and his arch rival Vilas used to have 50-60 shot rallies, longest rally they ever had was probably an 86 shot one.

Are you sure that Mr Federer is capable of having such cruel rallies on clay before being hailed as the second best clay courter of all time?
 
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StringGuruMRT

Semi-Pro
Nadal, Borg, Kuerten, Muster are all better clay players than Fed. Bruguera, Wilander and Lendl might be. I put Fed in the 6-10 range. He for sure would have at least 4 FO's if Rafa was never born
 

BorgTheGOAT

Legend
IMO it's a tough argument to put Federer above the following: Lendl, Wilander, Kuerten, Muster, Vilas

IMO, you can credibly make arguments for the following as being ahead of Federer: Laver, Courier, Agassi, Bruguera
Disagree with Muster and Agassi. Objectively speaking Federer is more accomplished than both of them and I wouldn’t see their peak level as incredibly high either.
 

FrontHeadlock

Hall of Fame
Disagree with Muster and Agassi. Objectively speaking Federer is more accomplished than both of them and I wouldn’t see their peak level as incredibly high either.

To be clear, I have Federer ahead of Agassi.

I just think you can make credible arguments for Agassi. He barely played on clay, and even at that he won Rome and got to the RG finals thrice winning once.
 

BorgTheGOAT

Legend
To be clear, I have Federer ahead of Agassi.

I just think you can make credible arguments for Agassi. He barely played on clay, and even at that he won Rome and got to the RG finals thrice winning once.
Agassi skipped the FO less than Wimbly or the Australian Open. Yes he skipped the clay masters regularly but the FO he played almost every year and Fed is still slightly ahead here. Agree though that one could make credible arguments for him. For Muster I cannot see it, especially as you said it would be ‘tough’ to put Fed ahead of him. Both have 6 clay masters but Fed is way better at the French where it matters most, so I cannot see why it would be tough to put him ahead.
 
He couldn’t even beat missing hip kuerten at the French so no. Or even make it competitive. Top 7-8 maybe. I don’t care about his “potential RG” titles either since its moot point because the clay field has been average and most of the time subpar at best since the 1990s. All the depth of talent for the last 20 some years have been concentrated on hards NOT grass or clay
 

Patriots

Semi-Pro
Rene Lacoste
Rod Laver
Tony Trabert
Ken Rosewall
Gustavo Khuerten
JIm Courier
Sergei Bruguera
Bjorn Borg
Novak Djokovic
Guillermo Vilas (sheer domination 1977)
Ivan Lendl
Matts Wilander

Off the top of my head...12 and counting....
 

REKX

Rookie
He couldn’t even beat missing hip kuerten at the French so no. Or even make it competitive. Top 7-8 maybe. I don’t care about his “potential RG” titles either since its moot point because the clay field has been average and most of the time subpar at best since the 1990s

Federer played him in what 2004? Was so far behind his clay peak. His game was far more accomplished on clay from 2006 to 2009 so this isn't a fair comparison.
 

Patriots

Semi-Pro
Jaroslav Drobný was a great player from the 1940's you have to include him in ATG on clay....

So Federer maybe top 15 all time...but with just one title it's hard to place him higher...
 

FrontHeadlock

Hall of Fame
Agassi skipped the FO less than Wimbly or the Australian Open. Yes he skipped the clay masters regularly but the FO he played almost every year and Fed is still slightly ahead here. Agree though that one could make credible arguments for him. For Muster I cannot see it, especially as you said it would be ‘tough’ to put Fed ahead of him. Both have 6 clay masters but Fed is way better at the French where it matters most, so I cannot see why it would be tough to put him ahead.

I’m not sure I agree, but I think your view is reasonable so it’s hard for me to disagree strongly. Muster definitely underperformed at RG.
 

Patriots

Semi-Pro
Federer played him in what 2004? Was so far behind his clay peak. His game was far more accomplished on clay from 2006 to 2009 so this isn't a fair comparison.

It's not fair to Khuerten either that Roger didn't have to compete against PEAK Khuerten on red clay... (Federer fans don't have the patent on "peak form" usage )
 
D

Deleted member 765728

Guest
Look at his draws en route to Nadal 06-08. They were garbage
I think this is a good way to look at it. When you list the great CC players Fed had beaten at RG during his best years (let's say 2005-2012), who is there? Moya (once), Djokovic (once) and I don't see anyone else. Even if we extend the list and add Wawrinka (and that's quite a liberal/forgiving approach since he never really beat prime Stan there), that's like 3 names in a span of 7/8 years.

As much as I love Fed, I am pretty sure his results (and Novak's as well) would suffer against a decent (90s) field and no way they he reaches 5 or 6 RG finals in a more competitive era. The same applies to Nadal regarding grass.
 

wangs78

Legend
As a Federer and Nadal fan, I have enjoyed their styles of play more than any other players. Both are attacking in their own way, it’s no wonder they produced matches like Wimbledon 2008.

I think peak Federer beats any other clay court player in history apart from Nadal. He has an incredible record there and without Nadal he would have won multiple French Opens.

I think the Federer from around 2006-2009 is an unbelievably high level. Barring the final of 2008 where Nadal had the mental advantage and 2008 Nadal being the best anyone has played on clay in history, Federer was beating everyone on clay - and in great style. The 2011 match against Djokovic showed that a past prime Federer beats a prime Djokovic.

Federer’s high spin forehand (although not as high as Nadal’s) has been a great shot on clay. And his speed and movement was unbelievable during those years. I know it’s different eras, but Federer beats Borg (who is widely considered the second greatest of all time on clay) at Roland Garros. Federer is technically much better than Borg in almost every aspect, he wins quite easily. (Peak Federer we are talking about here). And he did manage to take sets of Nadal during those years.

Do you agree?
A case can be made that Fed would have 5 RG titles if not for Nadal, and bc 2011 Fed beat a red hot Djokovic, that Fed is the #2 clay courter in history. As a Fed fan, I would love for that to be the case, but I try hard not to base my views on woulda, shoulda, coulda arguments. Given his number of RG finals appearances, who he played against, I would put him in the top 5, with Rafa being the clear #1. Borg, Djokovic, Fed and some other player would round out the rest.
 

FrontHeadlock

Hall of Fame
I think this is a good way to look at it. When you list the great CC players Fed had beaten at RG during his best years (let's say 2005-2012), who is there? Moya (once), Djokovic (once) and I don't see anyone else. Even if we extend the list and add Wawrinka (and that's quite a liberal/forgiving approach since he never really beat prime Stan there), that's like 3 names in a span of 7/8 years.

As much as I love Fed, I am pretty sure his results (and Novak's as well) would suffer against a decent (90s) field and no way they he reaches 5 or 6 RG finals in a more competitive era. The same applies to Nadal regarding grass.

He did beat some very solid clay courters in his Hamburg wins though.

2002: Kuerten
2004: Gaudio (the year he won RG), Moya, Coria
2005: Robredo, Coria
2007: JCF, Ferrer, Moya, Nadal
 

vamos22

Rookie
I think he is top 5 for level/achievements

1. Nadal
2. Djokovic
3. Borg
4. Kuerten
5. Federer


Without big 2 he would have 5-6 RG, 2 Rome, 3 Monte Carlo, 9 Hamburg/Madrid
 
D

Deleted member 765728

Guest
He did beat some very solid clay courters in his Hamburg wins though.

2002: Kuerten
2004: Gaudio (the year he won RG), Moya, Coria
2005: Robredo, Coria
2007: JCF, Ferrer, Moya, Nadal
Was talking about his RG runs only, BO3 is a different story.

His 2004 Hamburg run was his most impressive one on clay imo.
 
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