Peak Serena Williams using her Modern Racquet vs Peak (Borg/Mcenroe/Laver) using Wooden Racquets ...Who Wins?

[Razer]

Peak Serena uses Modern Racquet vs Peak (Borg, Laver and Mcenroe) who are all using Wooden Racquet and having same fitness levels that they had their peak

Best of 3 Sets

One 1 match against each players on all surfaces (Modern Grass, Clay, Outdoor HCs)

Total of 3*3 = 9 matches

Who comes out with a winning h2h in the end ?

 

[ppma]

Too many factors I think.
No top spin nor crazy overwhelming power of the >95sqin heads. Only touch. I do not think it'd be a fair game.

 

[Razer]

Too many factors I think.
No top spin nor crazy overwhelming power of the >95sqin heads. Only touch. I do not think it'd be a fair game.

She is a woman, they are men, so why is it not fair to give her some evolutionary advantage ?

I mean if she can beat them then it is proven that current WTA tour > 60s/70s Men's tour levelwise

 

[ppma]

I mean if she can beat them then it is proven that current WTA tour > 60s/70s Men's tour levelwise

But that's comparing apples and pears.

 

[Mr.Lob]

Peak Serena, without the physical advantage she held against the rest of the WTA tour, would get thumped. She'd walk home with her souvenir gifted breadsticks and have a nice meal.

 

[GoatNo1]

Most popular option fore now Peak Serena will Beat all 3 of them .... It is just evolution .... !!!

records:

100m
bolt 9,58 2009 - joyner 10,49 1988
200m
bolt 19,19 2009 - joyner 21,34 1988
400m
niekerk 43,03 2016 - koch 47,60 1985
800m
rudisha 1,40,91 2012 - kratochvilova 1,53,28 1983

 

[Baseline_Bungle]

Peak, bunker-bound Serena would probably beat all of them. I don't think anyone holding one of them tiny ovals could cope with that kind of power and spin. MAAAYBE JMac could keep it interesting thanks to the serve.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Most popular option fore now Peak Serena will Beat all 3 of them .... It is just evolution .... !!!

records:

100m
bolt 9,58 2009 - joyner 10,49 1988
200m
bolt 19,19 2009 - joyner 21,34 1988
400m
niekerk 43,03 2016 - koch 47,60 1985
800m
rudisha 1,40,91 2012 - kratochvilova 1,53,28 1983

Since all women’s records are from the 80s your reasoning about evolution is sarcasm right?

 

[GoatNo1]

Since all women’s records are from the 80s your reasoning about evolution is sarcasm right?

this + pretty huge difference from mans records

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Serena wouldn’t beat any of them. Borg did try a comeback with wooden racquets and while it was not successful at all he still won games from serious ATP players (and that was not peak Borg but Borg after ten years partying and not playing tennis). This would still be enough for Serena if we take peak Borg from the 70s.

 

[Pheasant]

My older sister was an all conference tennis player through the 1970s. So I got her hand-me-down rackets. Today, a 20.00 racket from Walmart absolutely destroys her high-end rackets from that era. It’s almost like comparing a ping pong paddle to a tennis racket. I love my 20.00 rackets from Walmart.

Given that, I will go with the following;

Serena beats Borg 2-1 on clay, 3-0 on grass, and 3-0 on fast hard court(cinci).

Serina would sweep Mac and Laver.

This handicap is way too big, folks. I’d say it’s 5 times bigger than the handicap world #4 Navratilova was givenover #75 Connors in their famous 1992 match where Connors took home the 500k winner’s check.

Connors only got one serve and Martina got to hit to a court that was 4 feet wider(got one of the doubles lines).

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

this + pretty huge difference from mans records

I mean it is even more evident in things like weightlifting where the record in the lowest men’s division is still better across the board than the records in the women’s heavyweight. I think you need to go to the female open weight division to beat the record of the lowest male class. As a rule of thumb: the best 15 years old boys usually beat the best women in the world (can be seen in all track and field disciplines as well as in football).

 

[GoatNo1]

I mean it is even more evident in things like weightlifting where the record in the lowest men’s division is still better across the board than the records in the women’s heavyweight. I think you need to go to the female open weight division to beat the record of the lowest male class. As a rule of thumb: the best 15 years old boys usually beat the best women in the world (can be seen in all track and field disciplines as well as in football).

people seem to refuse to understand that women's and men's tennis are two completely different sports! it's such an ape word that people starting to mix records on the women's and men's side and also amateur and professional eras.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Odds and ends.

Hope Beijing starts soon.

 

[Pheasant]

That being said, I wish McEnroe would have played Serena straight up in 2009 when he was 50 years old. I saw him play live in 2011 at a PowerShares series event. He served harder at that event than during his peak, thanks to modern rackets. That serve of his had a wicked spin out-wide. And he was remarkably fit for a 52 year old. Michael Chang was at that event and he has by far the fastest guy there(Agassi was there, as was Todd Martin, Jim Couriier, and a few other guys). Chang ran like Halep, despite being almost 40 years old at that time.

 

[NeutralFan]

Serena wouldn’t beat any of them. Borg did try a comeback with wooden racquets and while it was not successful at all he still won games from serious ATP players (and that was not peak Borg but Borg after ten years partying and not playing tennis). This would still be enough for Serena if we take peak Borg from the 70s.

Strings were not poly , with his opponent using poly it would have been 360 turn around and Borg would have been loosing badly against his opponents.

 

[Razer]

Serena wouldn’t beat any of them. Borg did try a comeback with wooden racquets and while it was not successful at all he still won games from serious ATP players (and that was not peak Borg but Borg after ten years partying and not playing tennis). This would still be enough for Serena if we take peak Borg from the 70s.

Borg is faster than Serena, no denying, but the racquets will make a huge difference, he will lose to Serena if he is using wood.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Strings were not poly , with his opponent using poly it would have been 360 turn around and Borg would have been loosing badly against his opponents.

He still lost badly but so would Serena. I do think that Arrese from the Borg match would beat Serena easily even without poly.

 

[onehandbh]

Who wins in a 100 meter sprint if both are at their peaks? No handicaps for either.

Sha'Carri Richardson
vs
Charles Paddock

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Borg is faster than Serena, no denying, but the racquets will make a huge difference, he will lose to Serena if he is using wood.

Not sure about it. Jordi Arrese was top 30 when he beat Borg 6-2, 6-3 after the latter hadn’t been active for ten years. Even without poly that guy would easily beat Serena. Assume now peak Borg from the 70s who is a completely different animal than his 91 version. It could be close but I would give him the edge over Serena.
It is tough to see Serena hitting winners. She (and Venus) said that when they played K.Braasch one of the biggest problems was that he could run down everything and that shots that would have been winners on the WTA didn’t bother him too much. Now imagine peak Borg instead of chain smoker Braasch.

 

[NeutralFan]

He still lost badly but so would Serena. I do think that Arrese from the Borg match would beat Serena easily even without poly.

Go watch Dimi playing with old rackets and string, it looked like he was playing a different game. Can you expect old rackets and strings to have a shot tolerance of 70-80mph fH or even 50 MPH? I don't think so. With wooden rackets it would be even worse and Borg would struggle to even defend let alone hitting winners against someone using poly. Borg was faster but what's the use if Rackets doesn't have shot tolerance against a ball that has been hit by poly string and modern rackets? mere physicality won't suffice. Tools would make a day and night difference.

 

[Razer]

Not sure about it. Jordi Arrese was top 30 when he beat Borg 6-2, 6-3 after the latter hadn’t been active for ten years. Even without poly that guy would easily beat Serena. Assume now peak Borg from the 70s who is a completely different animal than his 91 version. It could be close but I would give him the edge over Serena.
It is tough to see Serena hitting winners. She (and Venus) said that when they played K.Braasch one of the biggest problems was that he could run down everything and that shots that would have been winners on the WTA didn’t bother him too much. Now imagine peak Borg instead of chain smoker Braasch.

Borg's top serve speed was under 120 with wood I think so, right ?

Serena served highest at 128

This means Serena has more power than what Borg had with his wood.

 

[NeutralFan]

Borg's top serve speed was under 120 with wood I think so, right ?

Serena served highest at 128

This means Serena has more power than what Borg had with his wood.

Funny thing is how wooden racket without poly is gonna deal with FH speed of 60-90mph , Serena with poly and modern rackets won't have problem dealing with the weak shots hit by wooden rackets that would be considered defensive shots by modern standard.

 

[Razer]

Funny thing is how wooden racket without poly is gonna deal with FH speed of 60-90mph , Serena with poly and modern rackets won't have problem dealing with the weak shots hit by wooden rackets that would be considered defensive shots.

Yup.

Whether we like it or not, but the tennis played now by both genders is at a higher level than what men played in 50s/60s/70s, scary but true, evolution of mankind has been such ..... Today's men would crush the 60s players if the 60s guys used what they did back then.

 

[NeutralFan]

Yup.

Whether we like it or not, but the tennis played now by both genders is at a higher level than what men played in 50s/60s/70s, scary but true, evolution of mankind has been such ..... Today's men would crush the 60s players if the 60s guys used what they did back then.

With old rackets and string it looked like pushing due to racket's limitation and now compare it to women's hitting by Serena using poly . Not sure how Borg's racket would deal with the hard hitting and way more MPH off both wing.

The difference is day and night in the hitting and power.

 

[urban]

A couple of days ago the Marathon record for women was broken by an Ethiopean woman with a time of 2.11. and something. That was a full 2 minutes faster than the previous record for women, and 1 minute faster than the famous Bikila Abebe in the world record time at Tokyo 1964. The explosion on the long distance running this year, has to do with new shoes, which give the runners a springbock effect (also they make them vulnerable to muscle injuries).

Of course, equipment is a big deal. A Mondo Duplantis jumps 1 and a half meters higher than a Cornelius Warmerdam, the old milestone for pole vault in the 1940s. But he jumps with the newest space material, Warmerdam jumped with wooden sticks. Within the (more or less) same equipment, the differences are not that high. Duplantis is not much better than Bubka, who jumped 20 years before. In discliplines with less of a major equipment factor, the oldtimers do still very well. Jesse Owens of 1935 with his best jump still would be 5th in the long jump this year 2023 at the World Championships. And he run with old shoes and on clay, not tartan.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Borg's top serve speed was under 120 with wood I think so, right ?

Serena served highest at 128

This means Serena has more power than what Borg had with his wood.

Venus also served harder than Agassi. Wouldn’t beat him in a match though. She might have more power with the modern racquets, but he is also faster and could run down most of her shots.

 

[Razer]

Venus also served harder than Agassi. Wouldn’t beat him in a match though. She might have more power with the modern racquets, but he is also faster and could run down most of her shots.

Let Agassi use wood.

Venus will beat him or at least make it very close.

 

[Bill Lobsalot]

While today you may think that the old wooden rackets are weak, but those male players were very good with them. They used gut and pros still do. Serena doesn't beat any of them.

 

[recreationalplayer]

Is this question relevant? It is broadly hypothetical. Is a biplane better than a single wing prop plane, is a turboprop better than a prop plane, is a jet better than a turbo prop. Maybe we should appreciate players, conditions, equipment, etc., from each era for what they were then. Example, traveling to Australia isn't easy now. I don't see how the old Aussie greats did what they did 50+/- yrs ago.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Duplantis is not much better than Bubka, who jumped 20 years before. In discliplines with less of a major equipment factor, the oldtimers do still very well. Jesse Owens of 1935 with his best jump still would be 5th in the long jump this year 2023 at the World Championships. And he run with old shoes and on clay, not tartan.

You can see it in all sports where not much money is involved and where equipment us not so crucial. Take Beamons’s and Lewis’/Powell’s long jumps for instance or other records from the eighties in the throwing disciplines. Even in the tuning events on the women’s side the records from the eighties still stand (as shown by @GoatNo1 above).

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Let Agassi use wood.

Venus will beat him or at least make it very close.

What I wanted to say is that serve speed and power doesn’t necessarily mean you win the match. You and @NeutralFan still haven’t addressed the point that Borg could easily run down all of Serena’s shots (I mean freaking Braasch was able to do that). As for Mac, he would constantly be attacking. Curious to se his Serena would handle his serve and volley.

 

[NeutralFan]

What I wanted to say is that serve speed and power doesn’t necessarily mean you win the match. You and @NeutralFan still haven’t addressed the point that Borg could easily run down all of Serena’s shots (I mean freaking Braasch was able to do that). As for Mac, he would constantly be attacking. Curious to se his Serena would handle his serve and volley.

I already addressed that in my posts. Read it carefully.

 

[Razer]

I already addressed that in my posts. Read it carefully.

What I wanted to say is that serve speed and power doesn’t necessarily mean you win the match. You and @NeutralFan still haven’t addressed the point that Borg could easily run down all of Serena’s shots (I mean freaking Braasch was able to do that). As for Mac, he would constantly be attacking. Curious to se his Serena would handle his serve and volley.

It will be interesting to see Borg vs Swiatek She is very athletic and fast and using powerful racquet, I feel Borg could lose in straight sets.

 

[ryushen21]

Peak Serena uses Modern Racquet vs Peak (Borg, Laver and Mcenroe) who are all using Wooden Racquet and having same fitness levels that they had their peak

Best of 3 Sets

One 1 match against each players on all surfaces (Modern Grass, Clay, Outdoor HCs)

Total of 3*3 = 9 matches

Who comes out with a winning h2h in the end ?

Society. Society and the swans.

 

[Kralingen]

Michael Chang was at that event and he has by far the fastest guy there(Agassi was there, as was Todd Martin, Jim Couriier, and a few other guys). Chang ran like Halep, despite being almost 40 years old at that time.

I love the intimation that Chang got on the sauce at age 39 to dominate the senior tour

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

I already addressed that in my posts. Read it carefully.

Yea you did. Must have missed it somehow. Borg had to return serves of Roscoe Tanner who reportedly served at 153 mph once, with wooden racquets. If you can serve and return 153 mph serves with wood then sure as hell you can defend 50 mph forehand’s so guess you are wrong.
Dimi is btw a really bad example as he didn’t grow up with wood but only tried it once just for fun. A guy who played all his life with wood is completely different.

 

[Pheasant]

Borg is faster than Serena, no denying, but the racquets will make a huge difference, he will lose to Serena if he is using wood.

That rackets are a game-changer, especially today with the spin and how massive the sweet spot is. The size of the sweet spot is almost a bigger deal.

Tennis and racquetball technology are a lot a like, when it comes to the progression of racket technology(I’ve played since the 1980s; but a lot more racquetball than tennis. I have a 1990 racquetball racket and I used it as once recently.

1. The sweet spot sucks. I had lots of missed kill shots and blown serves. If felt like using a ping pong paddle. Once I connected, I could get pace. But taking a full swing resulted in a ton of shanks. It was embarrassing. So I swung at 80% power to avoid a ton of unforced errors.

2. Far more torque on the elbow. I’m retiring the 1990 racket again. I had elbow pain immediately after a match. Note. When I was in my 20s, I constantly had to wear an elbow brace from chronic elbow pain. Thankfully, the change in racket technology and especially the ball technology allows me to play with less pain now in my 50s than my peak years 3+ decades ago.

Having peak Borg play with those trash rackets would be like having peak Mario Andretti race high schoolers today with a school bus. Andretti had insane reflexes, ridiculous peripheral vision, and otherworldly 20/8 vision. But with a school bus, he will get roasted in a race.

Clay would allow Borg to maybe win a match against Serena with that crap racket. That’s a maybe.

2011 McEnroe on a fast surface with a modern racket would have a better chance. 2013 Mac played 2013 Roddick tough; lost 7 games to 5 IIRC. Now granted, Roddick was retired and now on the senior tour. But Andy was only 32. And he could still bring 130+ mph serves.

 

[Pheasant]

I almost forget about the grips on the rackets. The grips are far better nowadays. In this early days, Ivan Lendl kept sawdust in his pockets for a better grip. Can you imagine the Big 3 doing that?

 

[Pheasant]

Good thread, OP. It's really addressing the change in technology, which is far bigger than most realize. And I'm not trashing my all-time favorite player McEnroe by saying he'd get swept by Serena. I'm trashing the technology. As I said, I was shocked when Mac played Roddick so tough when he was 54 and Roddick was 32. So yeah, we can laugh watching old film. But the technology was a joke back then.

Here's one of my very favorite videos ever that explains the differences in technology across several sports, along with several other factors as to why athletes have continued to completely destroy records across time. When I first saw it 9 years ago, I was blown away. But it makes complete sense.

If you don't have 15 minutes to spare, I'll highlight a few of the main points, regarding technology.

The world record for the most miles bicycled in one hour(as of 2014, the year this video came out):
1972: 30 miles and 3774 feet, or 30.71477 miles
1996: 35 miles and 1531 feet, or 35.28996 miles(with a drastically better bike, 14.895% improvement over 1972)
2014(with same bike technology as 1972): 30 miles 4657 feet, or 30.882 miles(0.53% improvement over 1972)

Note: The women's record using modern bike technology went 30.605 miles, which is extremely close to the man's record on a 1972 bike.

Jesse Owens with crummy track finishes last in the 2013 World Championship 100 meter race; finishing 14 feet behind Bolt. With a modern track, mathematicians said he'd finish in 2nd place. And he'd be less than a stride behind Bolt.

 

[Razer]

Good thread, OP. It's really addressing the change in technology, which is far bigger than most realize. And I'm not trashing my all-time favorite player McEnroe by saying he'd get swept by Serena. I'm trashing the technology. As I said, I was shocked when Mac played Roddick so tough when he was 54 and Roddick was 32. So yeah, we can laugh watching old film. But the technology was a joke back then.

Here's one of my very favorite videos ever that explains the differences in technology across several sports, along with several other factors as to why athletes have continued to completely destroy records across time. When I first saw it 9 years ago, I was blown away. But it makes complete sense.

If you don't have 15 minutes to spare, I'll highlight a few of the main points, regarding technology.

The world record for the most miles bicycled in one hour(as of 2014, the year this video came out):
1972: 30 miles and 3774 feet, or 30.71477 miles
1996: 35 miles and 1531 feet, or 35.28996 miles(with a drastically better bike, 14.895% improvement over 1972)
2014(with same bike technology as 1972): 30 miles 4657 feet, or 30.882 miles(0.53% improvement over 1972)

Note: The women's record using modern bike technology went 30.605 miles, which is extremely close to the man's record on a 1972 bike.

Jesse Owens with crummy track finishes last in the 2013 World Championship 100 meter race; finishing 14 feet behind Bolt. With a modern track, mathematicians said he'd finish in 2nd place. And he'd be less than a stride behind Bolt.

Yeah, under the right circumstances records do get broken, humans are not getting as much better as it looks, a lot of that is amplified, but the amplification is definitely real.

 

[urban]

I think, Borg in his comeback, was beaten by Jordi Arrese pretty clearly, 2 and 3 or 2 1nd 1 or so. Borg played with his old rackets. I don't think, that Serana would win so many games against Arrese or any other male pro.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

I think, Borg in his comeback, was beaten by Jordi Arrese pretty clearly, 2 and 3 or 2 1nd 1 or so. Borg played with his old rackets. I don't think, that Serana would win so many games against Arrese or any other male pro.

2-3, exactly what I said above. Even without poly I do think that Arrese who was top 30 at that time would beat Serena by a similar score. Factor in that 91 Borg was light years away from peak Borg and he would likely beat Serena even with wood.

 

[jackson vile]

Not a chance, if women actually stood a chance against men they wouldn’t have their own separate leagues

They lose to random high school kids

 

[jm1980]

I don't think some here realize how good pros can still be with wooden racquets. Here are two guys who didn't even grow up playing with wood:

 

[RelentlessAttack]

Yup.

Whether we like it or not, but the tennis played now by both genders is at a higher level than what men played in 50s/60s/70s, scary but true, evolution of mankind has been such ..... Today's men would crush the 60s players if the 60s guys used what they did back then.

The crux of the argument here is technology, and then you go to talk about the evolution of mankind which is a totally different thing. Technology has massively improved since the 60s. Humans haven’t changed that much. Nutrition, sports medicine, and training have changed, but not nearly as much as the technology

 

[Arjuntino]

I think Williams would win.
The hypothesis is peak serena would be estimated to be at utr mid 13's to low 14's (iga peak thisbyear was around 13.4). That's around atp 700-1000 (mid 13) and 400-700 (low 14).
 

So if the question was rephrased could men's 1000 with a modern racket beat Borg/Mcenroe/Laver using wooden rackets, I'd say probably.

Defenitly men's 400 would win.

 

[Bill Lobsalot]

Go watch Dimi playing with old rackets and string, it looked like he was playing a different game. Can you expect old rackets and strings to have a shot tolerance of 70-80mph fH or even 50 MPH? I don't think so. With wooden rackets it would be even worse and Borg would struggle to even defend let alone hitting winners against someone using poly. Borg was faster but what's the use if Rackets doesn't have shot tolerance against a ball that has been hit by poly string and modern rackets? mere physicality won't suffice. Tools would make a day and night difference.

And Dimi used that racket for 20 minutes. Borg and all used them for 20 years.

 

[Dane_is_Finnish_OJ]

My older sister was an all conference tennis player through the 1970s. So I got her hand-me-down rackets. Today, a 20.00 racket from Walmart absolutely destroys her high-end rackets from that era. It’s almost like comparing a ping pong paddle to a tennis racket. I love my 20.00 rackets from Walmart.

Given that, I will go with the following;

Serena beats Borg 2-1 on clay, 3-0 on grass, and 3-0 on fast hard court(cinci).

Serina would sweep Mac and Laver.

This handicap is way too big, folks. I’d say it’s 5 times bigger than the handicap world #4 Navratilova was givenover #75 Connors in their famous 1992 match where Connors took home the 500k winner’s check.

Connors only got one serve and Martina got to hit to a court that was 4 feet wider(got one of the doubles lines).

Do you think Serena would beat Lendl on clay? No? Because borg did. With wood. And on hardcourt. And indoors.

 

[Razer]

The crux of the argument here is technology, and then you go to talk about the evolution of mankind which is a totally different thing. Technology has massively improved since the 60s. Humans haven’t changed that much. Nutrition, sports medicine, and training have changed, but not nearly as much as the technology

Serena is 5'9 or 5'10

Laver is 5'7

So evolution also has some role here