Peak Serena Williams using her Modern Racquet vs Peak (Borg/Mcenroe/Laver) using Wooden Racquets ...Who Wins?

[Dane_is_Finnish_OJ]

And Dimi used that racket for 20 minutes. Borg and all used them for 20 years.

Dimitrov plays with a racket from the '50s. Borg played with a far newer racket. And he beat top guys who played with graphite.

 

[Dane_is_Finnish_OJ]

I think Williams would win.
The hypothesis is peak serena would be estimated to be at utr mid 13's to low 14's (iga peak thisbyear was around 13.4). That's around atp 700-1000 (mid 13) and 400-700 (low 14).
 

So if the question was rephrased could men's 1000 with a modern racket beat Borg/Mcenroe/Laver using wooden rackets, I'd say probably.

Defenitly men's 400 would win.

Would they beat Lendl playing with a graphite racket? Borg and McEnroe did it with wood rackets.

 

[Dane_is_Finnish_OJ]

I almost forget about the grips on the rackets. The grips are far better nowadays. In this early days, Ivan Lendl kept sawdust in his pockets for a better grip. Can you imagine the Big 3 doing that?

No, but I could easily see him trashing Serena and a lot of todays' male mugs with that racket.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

There had been matches between guys with wood and guys with graphite and guys with against guys without poly and while of course the newer technology gave advantages it was never such a beat-down it would need to be to indicate, that women with poly would beat men with wood.
The Dimi example is particularly stupid as me and others have pointed out.

 

[NeutralFan]

And Dimi used that racket for 20 minutes. Borg and all used them for 20 years.

Yes and Borg was hitting as hard as modern players with that Racket and it didn't look like pushing by modern standard ,smh

 

[Pheasant]

Serena is 5'9 or 5'10

Laver is 5'7

So evolution also has some role here

This falls into the "right size" part of the equation that the video explains.

Olympic female gymnasts' average height:
1980s: 5 foot 3
2010s: 4 foot 9

Summing up, he said the players have gotten taller for sports where height was an advantage, shorter for sports where size was a disadvantage, and quirkier for sports requiring quirkier dimensions. Example here: Phelps at 6 foot 4 had the same leg length as a runner that stood 5 foot 9.

The training part is mind-blowing as well. Roger Bannister trained 45 minutes at a time while was blowing off gynecology lectures. And yet, he was the first person to break a 4 minute mile.

If we time-machine a great from the past to today, then he's going to be in big trouble in the vast majority of cases. But if we give him the property training and tools, then he will be competitive, IMHO. But you are right. The players from 40+ years ago using 1980s equipment and tools in a time machine match will get destroyed. It's not even a fair matchup.

 

[RelentlessAttack]

Serena is 5'9 or 5'10

Laver is 5'7

So evolution also has some role here

A 5’7” man is still going to beat a 5’10” woman if they’re both highly trained so technology is still the heart of the argument.

Evolution is also the wrong term here, people have gotten taller and fatter due to nutritional factors and improved hygiene/disease reduction, not an underlying change in our genetics

 

[Dane_is_Finnish_OJ]

A 5’7” man is still going to beat a 5’10” woman if they’re both highly trained so technology is still the heart of the argument.

Evolution is also the wrong term here, people have gotten taller and fatter due to nutritional factors and improved hygiene/disease reduction, not an underlying change in our genetics

Couple of weeks ago I saw little Baez beat the crap out of powerhouse Thiem. Seen him beat Rublev too. Easily. So there.

 

[Bambooman]

Go watch Dimi playing with old rackets and string, it looked like he was playing a different game. Can you expect old rackets and strings to have a shot tolerance of 70-80mph fH or even 50 MPH? I don't think so. With wooden rackets it would be even worse and Borg would struggle to even defend let alone hitting winners against someone using poly. Borg was faster but what's the use if Rackets doesn't have shot tolerance against a ball that has been hit by poly string and modern rackets? mere physicality won't suffice. Tools would make a day and night difference.

How do you think Borg handled Tanner's serve?

 

[Bambooman]

I almost forget about the grips on the rackets. The grips are far better nowadays. In this early days, Ivan Lendl kept sawdust in his pockets for a better grip. Can you imagine the Big 3 doing that?

Nadal has done that and Alcaraz used sawdust this year.

 

[matterer]

The Rocket wouldn't need to be at his peak to beat Serena

 

[JoshDragon]

Peak Serena uses Modern Racquet vs Peak (Borg, Laver and Mcenroe) who are all using Wooden Racquet and having same fitness levels that they had their peak

Best of 3 Sets

One 1 match against each players on all surfaces (Modern Grass, Clay, Outdoor HCs)

Total of 3*3 = 9 matches

Who comes out with a winning h2h in the end ?

Is this a serious question?

Serena wouldn't take a set off these guys.

 

[JoshDragon]

I think Williams would win.
The hypothesis is peak serena would be estimated to be at utr mid 13's to low 14's (iga peak thisbyear was around 13.4). That's around atp 700-1000 (mid 13) and 400-700 (low 14).
 

So if the question was rephrased could men's 1000 with a modern racket beat Borg/Mcenroe/Laver using wooden rackets, I'd say probably.

Defenitly men's 400 would win.

No. A player ranked 1000 in the world wouldn't beat Laver, McEnroe or Borg.

Even on their best day.

The technology makes a difference, but not to that level.

 

[metsman]

Borg/Mac easily. Peak Borg/Mac would probably still be in the men's top 100 with a wooden racket and that's very conservative (personally I think they would have every chance against top 10/20 players, but fall short of players of similar ability using much better tech), considering it's highly likely a late 30s physically busted Borg with wood would have made the men's top 100 or maybe even 50 if he cared enough to really try.

A 38 year old Borg way out of shape in DGAF mode after a decade of drugs and whatever other nonsense was able to win 5 games off the world number 50 (and better than that on clay) in his comeback match in the 90s, he very nearly beat the world number 17 and USO SFist indoors the next year. There is zero chance peak Serena wins 5 games off a top 100-200 men's pro if they are trying all out, even if the man plays without poly.

Obviously if anyone played tennis at any kind of level and understood that movement and footwork is #1, #2, and #3 when it comes to tennis ability (apart from serving outliers) we wouldn't get these absurd questions.

 

[mental midget]

Would they beat Lendl playing with a graphite racket? Borg and McEnroe did it with wood rackets.

exactly.

also i think there's a misperception concerning the speed of the game with wood. i would encourage people to check out this vid of a 34yo laver v. borg:

borg/mac/laver...you're talking 3 of the best over. no chance for serena

 

[Razer]

Borg/Mac easily. Peak Borg/Mac would probably still be in the men's top 100 with a wooden racket and that's very conservative (personally I think they would have every chance against top 10/20 players, but fall short of players of similar ability using much better tech), considering it's highly likely a late 30s physically busted Borg with wood would have made the men's top 100 or maybe even 50 if he cared enough to really try.

A 38 year old Borg way out of shape in DGAF mode after a decade of drugs and whatever other nonsense was able to win 5 games off the world number 50 (and better than that on clay) in his comeback match in the 90s, he very nearly beat the world number 17 and USO SFist indoors the next year. There is zero chance peak Serena wins 5 games off a top 100-200 men's pro if they are trying all out, even if the man plays without poly.

Obviously if anyone played tennis at any kind of level and understood that movement and footwork is #1, #2, and #3 when it comes to tennis ability (apart from serving outliers) we wouldn't get these absurd questions.

If you think Serena lacks movement then we could have Iga there against Mac and Borg. No matter how great Borg was, he wont be in the Men's top 100 now with that racquet lacking power. Borg's backhand would be butchered by modern day players both ATP and WTA if he uses wooden racquet, no power at all in it, any attacking shot from it would be like a defensive shot today, lol. The passing shots from Poly Strings will go past Borg all day no matter how quick he is. He is not the DC comics hero Flash, he is still human.

 

[NeutralFan]

Borg/Mac easily. Peak Borg/Mac would probably still be in the men's top 100 with a wooden racket and that's very conservative (personally I think they would have every chance against top 10/20 players, but fall short of players of similar ability using much better tech), considering it's highly likely a late 30s physically busted Borg with wood would have made the men's top 100 or maybe even 50 if he cared enough to really try.

A 38 year old Borg way out of shape in DGAF mode after a decade of drugs and whatever other nonsense was able to win 5 games off the world number 50 (and better than that on clay) in his comeback match in the 90s, he very nearly beat the world number 17 and USO SFist indoors the next year. There is zero chance peak Serena wins 5 games off a top 100-200 men's pro if they are trying all out, even if the man plays without poly.

Obviously if anyone played tennis at any kind of level and understood that movement and footwork is #1, #2, and #3 when it comes to tennis ability (apart from serving outliers) we wouldn't get these absurd questions.

Peak Mc with no ground game by modern standard and with a wooden racket will be in top 20 , okay! TTW scholars for you.

 

[NeutralFan]

Borg's backhand would be butchered by modern day players both ATP and WTA if he uses wooden racquet, no power at all in it, any attacking shot from it would be like a defensive shot today, lol. The passing shots from Poly Strings will go past Borg all day no matter how quick he is. He is not the DC comics hero Flash, he is still human.

You nailed it, even their attacking FH from 80s look like a defensive shot and pushing by modern standard

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

If you think Serena lacks movement then we could have Iga there against Mac and Borg. No matter how great Borg was, he wont be in the Men's top 100 now with that racquet lacking power. Borg's backhand would be butchered by modern day players both ATP and WTA if he uses wooden racquet, no power at all in it, any attacking shot from it would be like a defensive shot today, lol. The passing shots from Poly Strings will go past Borg all day no matter how quick he is. He is not the DC comics hero Flash, he is still human.

He does not need to be in men’s top 100 to beat Serena or Iga, top 500 will easily do it. If Serena with poly can beat Borg with wood it would mean that a top 200 player on the men’s side would double-bagel Borg with wood. There had been matches though in the past where players with wood beat players with graphite and where players with Kevlar/Nylon beat players with poly. The switch to poly came gradually, same as the switch from wood to graphite. If it had made such a difference that even women would beat men with the better equipment, we would have seen multiple matches where poly users double bagel players not using poly and all players would have switched immediately.

 

[mental midget]

The Rocket wouldn't need to be at his peak to beat Serena

even better than the video i posted. thread-ending evidence right here, laver was an absolute beast.

 

[Arjuntino]

Would they beat Lendl playing with a graphite racket? Borg and McEnroe did it with wood rackets.

So according to Google Lendl's racket head size was 75 sq inch.

I have no idea how a 75sq inch racket would perform with poly/hybrid strings.

I would guess there is a big difference between 75 sq in and 85 sq in terms of topspin etc.

 

[Dane_is_Finnish_OJ]

He does not need to be in men’s top 100 to beat Serena or Iga, top 500 will easily do it. If Serena with poly can beat Borg with wood it would mean that a top 200 player on the men’s side would double-bagel Borg with wood. There had been matches though in the past where players with wood beat players with graphite and where players with Kevlar/Nylon beat players with poly. The switch to poly came gradually, same as the switch from wood to graphite. If it had made such a difference that even women would beat men with the better equipment, we would have seen multiple matches where poly users double bagel players not using poly and all players would have switched immediately.

We can look at it like this: Borg beat Lendl who beat Agassi who beat Federer. Sure, Federer with a wooden racket might have some problems getting into top 100. But you have to look at the class of these players.

 

[Dane_is_Finnish_OJ]

So according to Google Lendl's racket head size was 75 sq inch.

I have no idea how a 75sq inch racket would perform with poly/hybrid strings.

I would guess there is a big difference between 75 sq in and 85 sq in terms of topspin etc.

Lendl beat everybody anyway with that tiny stick. He could hit flat and with heavy topsin. But look at guys like Borg, Vilas, Gomez and Arias. All hit heavy topspin with ancient technology.

 

[Bambooman]

To some degree enhanced topspin came from people realizing they weren't maxing out the capacity of the equipment they had by altering technique.

You can watch the Grand Prix final of '81 with Borg and Lendl and try to imagine Serena running around and power rallying endlessly. Not likely in any world, even with an actual fitness coach.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

We can look at it like this: Borg beat Lendl who beat Agassi who beat Federer. Sure, Federer with a wooden racket might have some problems getting into top 100. But you have to look at the class of these players.

Yeah exactly. As I said there is not much indicating that Serena, even with superior technology could beat she top men from the 70s/80s. But those two posters are passionately arguing against it.

 

[BGod]

Borg with the heavy wood beats her in triple breadsticks on clay or grass. Reality is he would simply adjust to her weaknesses.

 

[chrischris]

Borg's top serve speed was under 120 with wood I think so, right ?

Serena served highest at 128

This means Serena has more power than what Borg had with his wood.

Tennis is not only about the speed of serve.. Speed of foot is more a factor. Borg was fast. Serena not really. Borg would best her.

 

[Dane_is_Finnish_OJ]

Tennis is not only about the speed of serve.. Speed of foot is more a factor. Borg was fast. Serena not really. Borg would best her.

It's also about spin. The men can du so much more with it. And then there's stamina. Serena would have a tough time getting all those balls back in her court from Borg. Because they would come back over and over again.

 

[Razer]

Tennis is not only about the speed of serve.. Speed of foot is more a factor. Borg was fast. Serena not really. Borg would best her.

It's also about spin. The men can du so much more with it. And then there's stamina. Serena would have a tough time getting all those balls back in her court from Borg. Because they would come back over and over again.

Iga ?
The quickest ladies do have better conditioning today than the past athletes, they can give males a run for their money. With these racquets it will tilt in their favor.

 

[NeutralFan]

Iga ?
The quickest ladies do have better conditioning today than the past athletes, they can give males a run for their money. With these racquets it will tilt in their favor.

Modern women tennis is faster than the men's tennis that was played in early 80s. People have no idea how modern racket changed the game.

 

[Dane_is_Finnish_OJ]

Modern women tennis is faster than the men's tennis that was played in early 80s. People have no idea how modern racket changed the game.

Yeah, well ...

 

[Dane_is_Finnish_OJ]

Iga ?
The quickest ladies do have better conditioning today than the past athletes, they can give males a run for their money. With these racquets it will tilt in their favor.

You think Iga could outrun Borg? What about stamina? Nah.
Saw men's tennis (ATP) in the '80s live. Saw women's tennis live in WTA Rome this year. The female players are not even close to that level.

 

[Vincent-C]

Yeah, well ...

Thanks *very much* for that link. Ball-striking aside for the moment, the movement of the very best women
would not be adequate for a man ranked in the top 1000.

I feel a bit sorry for Petra Kvitova in that video, though; I like and admire her.

 

[Dane_is_Finnish_OJ]

Yeah, well ...

Iga ?
The quickest ladies do have better conditioning today than the past athletes, they can give males a run for their money. With these racquets it will tilt in their favor.

Borg and McEnroe both beat Lendl. You think any version of Lendl would lose to Serena? Oh yeah, over the hill McEnroe beat Becker. You think Serena would beat Becker? McEnroe beat Wilander, Edberg, Agassi, Ivanisevic too. Any of these guys?

 

[Dane_is_Finnish_OJ]

Would the NBA winners of 1982 lose to against the 2023 WNBA winners? I mean both training methods, equipment etc have changed radically. Those guys were hung over, on drugs and stuff like that. Would Italy's 1982 men's world cup winning side lose to whoever won the women's world cup this year. Jesse Owens ran the 100 meters in 10.2 in the '30s. No woman has ever beaten that. Not even with modern equipment.

 

[Winners or Errors]

I almost forget about the grips on the rackets. The grips are far better nowadays. In this early days, Ivan Lendl kept sawdust in his pockets for a better grip. Can you imagine the Big 3 doing that?

He did that his entire career, and overgrips were definitely widely used at the time. Are you suggesting Serena would stand a chance against Lendl playing with his GTX Pro? That’s delusional, and IIRC, Lendl lost to Borg playing with that racquet.

 

[Winners or Errors]

So according to Google Lendl's racket head size was 75 sq inch.

I have no idea how a 75sq inch racket would perform with poly/hybrid strings.

I would guess there is a big difference between 75 sq in and 85 sq in terms of topspin etc.

It’s 73.

 

[mental midget]

man this thread is still going? the connors/laver vid posted above should be all the evidence you need to realize she'd have no shot whatsoever.

btw this is no knock against serena, she was a phenomenal player...we're just talking apples and oranges here.

 

[Vincent-C]

It's trivially easy for a decent male player to wrong-foot even the best female player. That alone makes
the idea a non-starter.

 

[NeutralFan]

Yeah, well ...

Yeah sure that's the pace at Kvitova and Serena play tennis lol why don't you look at the real matches of peak Serena and see how hard she hits.

 

[Vincent-C]

Yeah sure that's the pace at Kvitova and Serena play tennis lol why don't you look at the real matches of peak Serena and see how hard she hits.

the guy: "we can hit a little harder, if you want."

 

[NeutralFan]

the guy: "we can hit a little harder, if you want."

Yeah we saw how hard it was in 80s and their shots looked liked a pushing by modern standard.

 

[Vincent-C]

Yeah we saw how hard it was in 80s and their shots looked liked a pushing by modern standard.

Think how much munny SW could make, proving she can outplay the men!
Do you happen to remember Navratilova's comments when Estep was
coaching her?

 

[NeutralFan]

Think how much munny SW could make, proving she can outplay the men!
Do you happen to remember Navratilova's comments when Estep was
coaching her?

Did Serena play the guy with the wooden rocket?no, wooden rocket won't have the shot tolerance of balls with speed of 70-00 mph , even the offensive shots hit by the wooden racket looks like pushing by the modern standard.

 

[Vincent-C]

Did Serena play the guy with the wooden rocket?no, wooden rocket won't have the shot tolerance of balls with speed of 70-00 mph , even the offensive shots hit by the wooden racket looks like pushing by the modern standard.

OK.

 

[Alcawrath]

This thread could easily be answered scientifically. What were the mphs of all pros referenced with their equipment? It's as simple as that. Serve and groundstrokes speed edge goes to Serena. Way too many people on this thread didn't read the actual premise and just want to argue that the male ATGs are better than the ATG woman.

 

[Dane_is_Finnish_OJ]

Yeah sure that's the pace at Kvitova and Serena play tennis lol why don't you look at the real matches of peak Serena and see how hard she hits.

I watched Coco and Badosa live in Rome. They can both beat Serena (they can lose too). The power of the men even in the '80s would be impossible for them. Yes, I watched ATP live in the '80s. The thing is, Serena would not be able to overpower the guys in the long run. You think Serena could beat Ivan Lendl?

 

[Dane_is_Finnish_OJ]

Yeah we saw how hard it was in 80s and their shots looked liked a pushing by modern standard.

Did you watch it live or on YouTube?

 

[Dane_is_Finnish_OJ]

Yeah we saw how hard it was in 80s and their shots looked liked a pushing by modern standard.

So you really think Serena could beat Ivan Lendl 1984? What about Boris Becker 1985?

 

[Dane_is_Finnish_OJ]

This thread could easily be answered scientifically. What were the mphs of all pros referenced with their equipment? It's as simple as that. Serve and groundstrokes speed edge goes to Serena. Way too many people on this thread didn't read the actual premise and just want to argue that the male ATGs are better than the ATG woman.

That doesn't mean she could beat them. All her shots are coming back and she'll go down physically pretty fast.