Peak Stanislas Wawrinka is the only player who can beat peak Novak Djokovic today?

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Tsitsipas comments after the match seemed very oblivious to me. "Nadal has the talent to make you play bad" was basically taking something that applies to himself and applying that to everyone. He literally seemed to compare himself to Federer and then he thought that having a somewhat similar game would actually help him vs Federer's worst nightmare. And when that delusion got exposed for what it was, he was crushed.

I think he was just in shock. He beat Federer and played well to get there to just get destroyed. He's a little naive in thinking he can compare his game and Federer's game and not understand how Federer can beat Nadal and he can't. I think he needs a little more maturity to understand the difference.
 

Red Rick

Bionic Poster
I think he was just in shock. He beat Federer and played well to get there to just get destroyed. He's a little naive in thinking he can compare his game and Federer's game and not understand how Federer can beat Nadal and he can't. I think he needs a little more maturity to understand the difference.
He's 20, not 12. I'd expect a tennis professional who's trained all his life and who's top 20 in the world to understand those kinds of things.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
He's 20, not 12. I'd expect a tennis professional who's trained all his life and who's top 20 in the world to understand those kinds of things.

In tennis age though, that's still kind of young and he hasn't been on the big stages long. It's not uncommon for someone younger to get a tad bit overconfident after a big win and then just get knocked flat on their a** and end up shellshocked. Lol. Give him a little more time to mature some more.
 

zalive

Hall of Fame
I think he was just in shock. He beat Federer and played well to get there to just get destroyed. He's a little naive in thinking he can compare his game and Federer's game and not understand how Federer can beat Nadal and he can't. I think he needs a little more maturity to understand the difference.

Tsitsi's game is not the type of game which could harm fit Nadal. You can't beat Nadal with topspin based game, it's his strength, he's the best there. You must attack him with more direct balls and lots of pace. Besides, Tsitsi's return could not match Rafa's serve so he was pretty secure to hold.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Tsitsi's game is not the type of game which could harm fit Nadal. You can't beat Nadal with topspin based game, it's his strength, he's the best there. You must attack him with more direct balls and lots of pace. Besides, Tsitsi's return could not match Rafa's serve so he was pretty secure to hold.

Yep and he played right into Rafa's hands, leading himself blindly into the slaughter. There was no pace on that forehand for one and if you cannot dictate Rafa with your forehand then just forget it. Also, the backhand was just mincemeat for Rafa. He pounded that shot into oblivion. Lol. Tsits' return has got to improve if he wants to challenge these guys.
 

zalive

Hall of Fame
Yep and he played right into Rafa's hands, leading himself blindly into the slaughter. There was no pace on that forehand for one and if you cannot dictate Rafa with your forehand then just forget it. Also, the backhand was just mincemeat for Rafa. He pounded that shot into oblivion. Lol. Tsits' return has got to improve if he wants to challenge these guys.

I think he's really good for his age. And I do think his FH is a weapon. It's just harder in conditions like AO 2019...besides his natural game is not all out attack but he needed to play like this because he hasn't got as good footwork as Rafa, attacking was his only chance. As for returning, well he's a big guy...al the best returners in the game are bit shorter than him...one can't expect he can ever become as good as Nole or Rafa.

Anyway let's give those young guns few more years...big three improved constantly in many aspects over their career and young players are dealing with latest versions of them, with all the tricks, experience, variety of their game, tactical width...take Rafa for the example, he was much more defensively oriented player when young, he didn't quite have all what he has now.
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
It might be true.... If so , does that mean Stan hits much Heavier ball than RAFA ?? That is really surprising cause I always though reverse was true. Novak seem to handle RAFA's balls with ease these days but then when he plays Stan, he seem to get pushed around by his heavy shots when Stan is on his A game.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
I think he's really good for his age. And I do think his FH is a weapon. It's just harder in conditions like AO 2019...besides his natural game is not all out attack but he needed to play like this because he hasn't got as good footwork as Rafa, attacking was his only chance. As for returning, well he's a big guy...al the best returners in the game are bit shorter than him...one can't expect he can ever become as good as Nole or Rafa.

Anyway let's give those young guns few more years...big three improved constantly in many aspects over their career and young players are dealing with latest versions of them, with all the tricks, experience, variety of their game, tactical width...take Rafa for the example, he was much more defensively oriented player when young, he didn't quite have all what he has now.

I agree with most of this. I think he can hit his forehand better than he did against Nadal but his return is pretty weak. I don't think he has to be necessarily as good Novak or Rafa on the return but he needs to become better than he is now.
 
I'm a Federer fan but I've come to accept that peak Djokovic > peak Federer at pretty much any surface. Apart from clay maybe. Djokovic is just on another level to Federer. I mean, you can't lose two back to back finals and not be considered inferior by a quite a margin as Federer did against Djokovic in his best tournament (Wimbledon) at 2014 and 2015. Djokovic would probably beat any version of Federer on grass and clay. Sample size is now big enough!

Don't disguise as a fed fan, djok fan...
And lol at peak djok being greater than peak fed...
Its 55-45 fed on clay
60-40 djok on slow hard
65-35 fed on fast/medium fast hard
70-30 fed on grass
 

KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
Its not only wawrinka who can beat peak djokovic ...
90sq in Fed in form or 97sq in fed on a good serving day..(RG11, Wim12, Cincy 12, Dubai 14, MC14, Shanghai 14, Dubai 15, Cincy 15, WTF 15 RR)...
In form Nadal on clay (MC 12, Rome 12, RG12, RG13, RG14)....
Ready-to-Grind murray on his good day...

There are so many...

Its not like peak djoker is invincible thanos with infinity stones... He's a human tennis player, who, can be defeated. Its not impossible
Yep. 2004-2012 Fed can beat peak Novak on grass, USO HC, clay etc. 2004-2007 level would be needed to challenge at AO.

Sadly, that player doesn’t exist anymore and I doubt we will see another of his type.
 

KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
I'm a Federer fan but I've come to accept that peak Djokovic > peak Federer at pretty much any surface. Apart from clay maybe. Djokovic is just on another level to Federer. I mean, you can't lose two back to back finals and not be considered inferior by a quite a margin as Federer did against Djokovic in his best tournament (Wimbledon) at 2014 and 2015. Djokovic would probably beat any version of Federer on grass and clay. Sample size is now big enough!
Does it not register with you, that it was 33-34 year old Fed with a larger racket and a non existent FH?

Watch their 2012 match for an indication of how a peak for peak grass match would go. That’s as close as you’ll get.

As for USO, see their 07-12 matches.
 

pikku05

Rookie
Khachanov and Zverev beat Novak in two sets easily. RBA beat Novak too. Medvedev could have beat Novak at AO if not for his lack of fitness.
 
Yep. 2004-2012 Fed can beat peak Novak on grass, USO HC, clay etc. 2004-2007 level would be needed to challenge at AO.

Sadly, that player doesn’t exist anymore and I doubt we will see another of his type.
AO rebound ace 65-35 fed
AO plexicushion slow 65-35 nole
AO plexicushion fast medium 60-40 fed..

I still wonder how these djoker fans can consider peak djok to be greater than peak fed, when even a declined older fed managed to be the only player going toe to toe with peak novak on a consistent basis...
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
The exception is probably when winning or losing determines #1 for the year. My take was that Novak, in his mind, was not feeling great and was already planning for 2019.

Strongly disagree. WTF meant a great deal to Novak since it would have tied him with Fed with 6 WTF trophies. Whether he felt lousy in his mind or not, that was a match that had strong legacy connotations for him and he knew it.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
I think he was just in shock. He beat Federer and played well to get there to just get destroyed. He's a little naive in thinking he can compare his game and Federer's game and not understand how Federer can beat Nadal and he can't. I think he needs a little more maturity to understand the difference.
Tsitsi had all his life to study Nadal and also had 2 matches against him to get a hang of playing with him.
 

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
Does it not register with you, that it was 33-34 year old Fed with a larger racket and a non existent FH?

Watch their 2012 match for an indication of how a peak for peak grass match would go. That’s as close as you’ll get.

As for USO, see their 07-12 matches.

As a Fed fan, I feel that you are cherry-picking your data.

2012 Wimbledon was very impressive from Roger, but let's not forget that he almost lost to Benneteau that year! Fed's form in 2015 was AWESOME going into the final (watch highlights of his SF against Murray if you don't believe me) and he basically became a mental midget in that final.

Peak Fed vs. Peak Novak is basically a coin toss in my eyes. Peak Fed never dominated Nadal the way Novak just did.
 

R_Federer

Professional
Would people shut the eff up about Djokovic? Another thread about him and I will explode. Just another dummy who is the new flavor of the month. Just as Nadal was to beat Federer's record.

To answer your question please look at how easily Federer would thump Djokovic when Federer was in his prime (not even peak).
 

R_Federer

Professional
As a Fed fan, I feel that you are cherry-picking your data.

2012 Wimbledon was very impressive from Roger, but let's not forget that he almost lost to Benneteau that year! Fed's form in 2015 was AWESOME going into the final (watch highlights of his SF against Murray if you don't believe me) and he basically became a mental midget in that final.

Peak Fed vs. Peak Novak is basically a coin toss in my eyes. Peak Fed never dominated Nadal the way Novak just did.

HUH? Wimbledon 2005 and 2006???
 

OldschoolKIaus

Hall of Fame
Oh, finally a thread with a good topic ... wait, no, insecure fans came up with excuses to downgrade the worst opponent of their idol.

Come on, he won AO19, stop cyring!
 

KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
As a Fed fan, I feel that you are cherry-picking your data.

2012 Wimbledon was very impressive from Roger, but let's not forget that he almost lost to Benneteau that year! Fed's form in 2015 was AWESOME going into the final (watch highlights of his SF against Murray if you don't believe me) and he basically became a mental midget in that final.

Peak Fed vs. Peak Novak is basically a coin toss in my eyes. Peak Fed never dominated Nadal the way Novak just did.
2012 Fed had a higher top level at Wimbledon and still had a fearsome FH/BH slice with his serve being just as good.

I personally go by surface. Slow HC to Nole, grass/fast HC to Fed with clay being 50/50.
 

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
I think Djoko with time would have figured out Wawrinka.

Anyway yes, he is a very tough match up for him.
 

mikeeeee

Professional
2013 and 2014 AO matches were two of the best I've ever seen. Both players were out of their mind and split the two 1-1 both going 5 sets. Peak Stan didn't give a fu*k when he was playing Novak and I think it's because they practiced together a lot. He knew that he could last 4+ hours just murdering the ball down the lines and he could come out with the win more than other players on tour.

If he was in the same form against Nadal in 2017 as he was in the 2015 final, I don't know if he would have won, but I think it would have been 5 sets.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
As a Fed fan, I feel that you are cherry-picking your data.

2012 Wimbledon was very impressive from Roger, but let's not forget that he almost lost to Benneteau that year! Fed's form in 2015 was AWESOME going into the final (watch highlights of his SF against Murray if you don't believe me) and he basically became a mental midget in that final.

Peak Fed vs. Peak Novak is basically a coin toss in my eyes. Peak Fed never dominated Nadal the way Novak just did.
It depends which Nadal. Prime Fed would be licking his chops if he were facing 2019 AO final Nadal.
 

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
It depends which Nadal. Prime Fed would be licking his chops if he were facing 2019 AO final Nadal.

2019 Nadal was basically DOMINANT at the AO this year until the final. No version of Nadal at the AO (including 2009) was statistically a match for this version of Nadal. Just look at the serve stats.

Clearly, given his vast improvement on the serve and his more aggressive baseline style, 2019 Nadal at AO>>>2005/2006 Nadal at AO.
2005/2006 Nadal was a significant problem for Fed on HC.


Moreover, the irony is that "prime Fed" was less a problem for Nadal than the 2017 Backhanderer.

There are basically three ways to beat Nadal:
1) Hit him off the court (Gonzalez, Soderling, Delpo, Thiem)
2) Counter the heavy topspin FH into the BH and not allow yourself to get pushed around in rallies.

The first strategy is not going to work most of the time. You basically need to be completely in the zone, as all of those guys have been. But none of the guys I mentioned have consistently beaten Rafa, because hitting Nadal off the court means generating lots of UE.
Djokovic since 2011 is the only guy that can really get the job done consistently, mainly because he completely negates Nadal's greatest weapon--the FH into the BH. Fed was never able to do that because of the BH liability, which is why 2017 was so huge.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
2019 Nadal was basically DOMINANT at the AO this year until the final. No version of Nadal at the AO (including 2009) was statistically a match for this version of Nadal. Just look at the serve stats.

Clearly, given his vast improvement on the serve and his more aggressive baseline style, 2019 Nadal at AO>>>2005/2006 Nadal at AO.
2005/2006 Nadal was a significant problem for Fed on HC.


Moreover, the irony is that "prime Fed" was less a problem for Nadal than the 2017 Backhanderer.

There are basically three ways to beat Nadal:
1) Hit him off the court (Gonzalez, Soderling, Delpo, Thiem)
2) Counter the heavy topspin FH into the BH and not allow yourself to get pushed around in rallies.

Djokovic has done the second thing exceptionally well since 2011. Fed was never able to do that because of the BH liability, which is why 2017 was so huge.
2005/2006 Nadal wasn't a significant problem for Fed on HC.

And no, there is no universe in which 2019 AO Nadal is better than 2009 AO Nadal. Stats be damned.
 

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
2005/2006 Nadal wasn't a significant problem for Fed on HC.

And no, there is no universe in which 2019 AO Nadal is better than 2009 AO Nadal. Stats be damned.

Fed had to fight tooth and nail to stay in this match and win it. This was against a slamless teenager ranked 29 in the world that had beaten him in straights the year before.

Basically Nadal won the first four sets he ever played against Fed on HC.
 

Gary Duane

Talk Tennis Guru
Strongly disagree. WTF meant a great deal to Novak since it would have tied him with Fed with 6 WTF trophies. Whether he felt lousy in his mind or not, that was a match that had strong legacy connotations for him and he knew it.
Strongly disagree with what? That he was fighting as hard as he could? Because that's not what I saw. I don't know WHY, but I saw nothing like the desire, intensity or focus that we saw at the end of AO. I just don't know what the reasons were. Logically I would agree with you. Logically he is going to want to get anything Fed has, or better it, to assure his place in history.

Bear in mind I'm not more fan that you are. I wanted Fed to win AO. I wanted him to come roaring back after losing a set to T, and what we saw is still not clear in my mind. It could be age, but for the most part he was just terribly off and could not get a BP to save his soul.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster

Fed had to fight tooth and nail to stay in this match and win it. This was against a slamless teenager ranked 29 in the world that had beaten him in straights the year before.

Basically Nadal won the first four sets he ever played against Fed on HC.

And this is the same guy who has a 3-21 record against Fed and yet he is 2-1 in Miami against the great man.

It's more of Miami not being one of Fed's best masters than anything.
 

Night Slasher

Professional
Peak Wawrinka has the ability to do something that almost nobody in men's tennis can do - to overpower/outmuscle Nole's backhand with the heaviness of his own and win the BH2BH exchanges more often than any other player. This completely disrupts Nole's basic strategy of dominating his opponent with his backhand. Furthermore, Stan is not troubled with the depth of Djokovic's groundstrokes because he feels pretty comfortable while positioning himself 2-3 meters behind the baseline, because he has enough power to do some serious damage even from far behind.

Basically, he has the answer to Nole's biggest weapons and that's why he represents such a big challenge.
 

icedevil0289

G.O.A.T.
2015 Roland Garros final was an example of both being at their peak, and Wawrinka blasting Djokovic out of the court. Djokovic didn't even make too many errors or mistakes. He simply had an opponent in Wawrinka who kept hitting winners and there was nothing he could do about that.

that was one of their best matches imo and one of stan's best wins. I know AO is kind of clouded for some due to rafa's injury and I think USO 2016, if I'm not mistake novak had something with his foot and was obviously burning out, but damn 2015 and had some sweet tennis
 

Druss

Hall of Fame
It will be interesting to see how Thiem matches up to Djoko come clay. Also Zverev at the clay Masters has proven he’s a contender. He just needs to overcome his mental dilemma at the slams. Unfortunately, I don’t see Wawa getting back to his best, mainly due to age.
 

Mkiske

Semi-Pro
Wawrinka, no way.
Stanislas played very well at Roland Garros-15, well-done!
But at USOpen-16 the serbian has already presented several physical problems (elbow, shoulder, wrist, and not to mention that he was mentally bad).
The truth is that Djokovic was crawling on the court.
Stan is very good player. But with peak Djokovic, Wawrinka has no chance.
 

icedevil0289

G.O.A.T.
As a Fed fan, I feel that you are cherry-picking your data.

2012 Wimbledon was very impressive from Roger, but let's not forget that he almost lost to Benneteau that year! Fed's form in 2015 was AWESOME going into the final (watch highlights of his SF against Murray if you don't believe me) and he basically became a mental midget in that final.

Peak Fed vs. Peak Novak is basically a coin toss in my eyes. Peak Fed never dominated Nadal the way Novak just did.


you are correct, not an excuse ofc because it is what it is, fed/rafa have that match up issue in a way nadal/novak don't but results are results at the end of the day
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Wawrinka, no way.
Stanislas played very well at Roland Garros-15, well-done!
But at USOpen-16 the serbian has already presented several physical problems (elbow, shoulder, wrist, and not to mention that he was mentally bad).
The truth is that Djokovic was crawling on the court.
Stan is very good player. But with peak Djokovic, Wawrinka has no chance.
LOL.
 
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