Peak Stanislas Wawrinka is the only player who can beat peak Novak Djokovic today?
- Thread starter Ganstaz003
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DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
kyrgios in his prime and should have defeat a 37+ player.
nadal is not that old and was playing clearly better than federer and tsitsipas is in development process, so no surprise he lost.
Purplemonster
Hall of Fame
He was beaten in finals on 2 of those occasions so he must have been playing well. If the pressure got to Djokovic on those occasions he only has himself to blame, handling pressure is part of the sport. It’s exaclty what Djokovic just did to Nadal a few days ago.
DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
is about confidence.
nadal is an utter disgrace playing djokovic and a player like medmedev can trouble the serbian for a while.
You got the point didn't you?
I help you.
Djoko vs Waw at slams:
2013 US Open
Novak Djokovic
26 764 36 63 64
2013 Australian Open
Novak Djokovic
16 75 64 675 1210
2014Australian Open
Stan Wawrinka
26 64 62 36 97
2015Australian Open
Novak Djokovic
761 36 64 46 60
2015Roland Garros
Stan Wawrinka
46 64 63 64
2016US Open
Stan Wawrinka
671 64 75 63
It does prove that Waw has "no chance against peak Novak" lol
Pheasant
Legend
Peak Stan is gone for good, as is Peak Rafa, Peak Fed, and Peak Murray. Will Khachanov get to a point that he's a tough match up for Djokovic occasionally(like a 1 in 3 chance)? Maybe. But that remains to be seen.
Djokovic is 2-3 levels above the entire field. A young heavy hitter that is playing the best match of his career might have slight chance. It'll take a heavy hitter like Khacanov that is serving at 80% and crushing rallies on the lines all afternoon to take out Djoker in 5 sets. I.e, let's not hold our breath.
Peak Old Age and Peak Injury will ultimately stop Djokovic. Peak Old Age and Peak Injury are co-GOATS.
Djokovic is unique in that he's playing arguably the best tennis of his career right now. He just tied Laver's Open era record by winning 3 consecutive slam finals in straight sets. That is remarkable.
I think it's come to a point where if Nadal and Djokovic meet in the FO final, then Fed's record will be safer if Nadal beats Djoker. Either way, Fed's record isn't looking that safe. Djoker is looking like even-money or better to take over Fed's slam record and claim the GOAT status.
Djokovic is 2-3 levels above the entire field. A young heavy hitter that is playing the best match of his career might have slight chance. It'll take a heavy hitter like Khacanov that is serving at 80% and crushing rallies on the lines all afternoon to take out Djoker in 5 sets. I.e, let's not hold our breath.
Peak Old Age and Peak Injury will ultimately stop Djokovic. Peak Old Age and Peak Injury are co-GOATS.
Djokovic is unique in that he's playing arguably the best tennis of his career right now. He just tied Laver's Open era record by winning 3 consecutive slam finals in straight sets. That is remarkable.
I think it's come to a point where if Nadal and Djokovic meet in the FO final, then Fed's record will be safer if Nadal beats Djoker. Either way, Fed's record isn't looking that safe. Djoker is looking like even-money or better to take over Fed's slam record and claim the GOAT status.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
I'm just saying that the impression one gets from these boards is that Peak Novak has no chance against Wawrinka
uscwang
Hall of Fame
Interesting
daddy
Legend
Completely off subject. He was not playing peak tennis so we can not simply assume that peak Stanimal is better then peak Djoko is the subject.
His 2015 serve seems to be a little better, but his ground game 2011 is much superior. No version of Stan can touch a hair of that Djokovic.
D
Deleted member 762343
Guest
Zverev and Tsitsipas are the only ones who beat an in form Djokovic though.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
The gap is still enormous.
It is business. He was out for 2 years to let Fedal have a go at slams one more time without him, to increase ratings and sponsors' funds.His 15/16 run was bad for business, adjustments were desparately needed.
He will lose some M1000 finals. He will lose some sets on majors. But, if he plays only what he has to, out of slams, and wins masters only needed to stay #1, he does not even need RG19 or RG20 to equal Federer, both GS titles and weeks #1 by end of 2020.
He now turns AO19 SF/F mode at will, only when really called for. He knows he must/should not oveuse it. It is beyond what we consider human. And lowers ratings when used all the time. Hence losses are about to happen as he will use masters for getting in shape for slams playing some in 4 sets deliberately, and he will lose probably in finals to keep it human and keep Nadal at distance from #1, except for when he plays Nadal or Federer in finals when he will deploy full on mode - H2H and # of titles won.
But this does not mean he will not go after RG19 with everything he has and knows. I mean, after 3, equaling Rod Laver, comes 4 consecutive slam finals won in straight sets, right? Nadal should be at his best by RG and that is the toughest challange he can face on the only race he runs now, so we shall see.
Sure, age might take it's toll before he equals Federer. But there will be no more 5 weak explanations, like children telling lies, and there will be no more funny 2 year breaks. We are about to find out what his real unhindered limit is. Chances are, it will be a ride to remember.
And business will be taken care of, to continue once Big 3 are retired. We all are only having fun, and business rarely does, if ever.
Simon_the_furry
Hall of Fame
Delpo could give Novak some trouble, potentially.
Deon Sanders
Legend
Ahahahaha
Ganstaz003
Rookie
It's crazy to think that Wawrinka has beaten Djokovic on every grand slam tournament at least once, except Wimbledon.
Ganstaz003
Rookie
Djokovic was far from at his best in 2012. In fact, it was one of his worst years since 2011. He only won one grand slam that year, lost to Murray a bunch of times uncharacteristically, including the defeats in 2012 US Open final and Olympic semi-final. Almost lost to Nadal in his best slam that is Australian Open and that was the only slam he won that year.
Roger Federer was at his peak in 2015. He couldn't have played better but still got outplayed and lost to Djokovic. in the Wimbledon final I mean, he produced arguably his best performance ever against Andy Murray in the semi-final, leading up to the final. His serve was on point and Murray, who is one of the best returners ever, couldn't do anything about Federer's serve. It was a masterclass performance in serving and in hitting winners. I can't remember Federer ever having a better performance against Murray, especially on grass. That was the ABSOLUTE pinnacle and peak of Federer, playing with a style that suited him best.
Yet, those same tactics were rendered useless and ineffective against Djokovic. His best attacks, his best shots, his best serves and all the things that were effective and successful against Murray, were futile against Djokovic. Meaning, peak Djokovic > peak Federer on grass. On top of the fact that Djokovic beat him not once, but in two back to back finals.
And on hard courts, the same is the case. Djokovic beat Federer in two back to back hard court grand slams, only a few months between them. Djokovic thoroughly outplayed Federer in the 2015 US Open final where Federer looked totally clueless as to what to do and then did the same a few months later in the 2016 Australian Open Semi.
The truth is, Djokovic has reached a new level that is beyond peak Federer, as much as it pains me to say.
Ganstaz003
Rookie
I agree with clay. But on any hard court, Djokovic has the 65% or 70% edge whilst on grass, it's 60% in my opinion.
Ganstaz003
Rookie
Numbers can be often misleading. On average, Wawrinka is nothing but an ordinary player. However, when he's at his best, his style of play matches up very well and effectively for him, against Djokovic, even if Djokovic himself is also at his best. But keep in mind that Wawrinka's 'best' or 'peak' is a rare occurrence, as rare as asteroids going past Earth.
It's merely a stylistic concept! This is not to belittle or downplay Djokovic, but rather to show how great he is, that it takes only one or two players who are usually inferior to him, to be at their very best to be able to beat him at his peak due to their styles matching up.
Djokovic's consistency is what has him ahead in the head to head. But peak Wawrinka, although an extremely rare occurrence, poses one of the biggest threats to peak Djokovic, proven by the 2015 Roland Garros final.
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Absolute load of rubbish. 2015 Fed at Wimbledon ranks below 2003-2009, 2012 and 2017.
His FH was worse than ever in 2015, with it now being even worse in late 2018/2019.
Peak Fed at W/USO is better than Nole.
HetTheGreaterer
Banned
MeatTornado
Talk Tennis Guru
I think a lot of us thought that 5 months ago too. Delpo looked to be in the best form of anyone at the US Open for 2 weeks.
But in the final he couldn't even take a single set off Novak.
Night Slasher
Professional
Unfortunately for him, he can't even reach him in the biggest events.
Simon_the_furry
Hall of Fame
He was gassed in the final, though. :/
ForehandRF
Legend
I don't think that Federer's forehand was that bad in 2015.Definitely was worse than in his best years, but that's mainly because his movement has already declined at that point.Djokovic was the only one good enough to exploit that.
Pheasant
Legend
I highly doubt that Stan will ever get back to his 2014-2017 levels. Also, Djoker serves better now. I would be absolutely shocked if Stan could push Djoker to 5 sets at any major, let alone beat him.
Djoker can be caught off guard in a best of 3 where he's not giving it 100% effort like he did before. I think that Djoker paces himself nowadays to avoid the mental burnout that he suffered in 2016.
Djoker can be caught off guard in a best of 3 where he's not giving it 100% effort like he did before. I think that Djoker paces himself nowadays to avoid the mental burnout that he suffered in 2016.
It was reliable as a putaway shot but was weak as a neutral rally shot and his trademark inside out FH was almost non existent.
It’s ridiculous to claim 2015 was his best form ever when he didn’t have his main weapon.
I would love to see Stan get a 4th slam before retiring. It might be a miracle to hope for but I want that more than I want anything pretty much. Even Djokovic getting the slam record, and I am a big Djokovic fan.
If nothing else than to see the hilarious Wawrinka vs Murray threads which would be bound to be popping up all over the place.
I dont think if it somehow ever happened it would be by beating Djokovic again though. I think his days of Djokovic's nemisis are over even if he regains form, and Djokovic will be the one he needs to avoid like everyone else. As funny as it sounds given their history I think he will even have a better chance vs Federer or Nadal (except Nadal on clay) from now on then Djokovic.
Pheasant
Legend
I'd love to see Stan get another slam title. He's one of my favorite players. That outfit that he wore during the 2015 FO was hilarious.
Especialy when he made light of it and the shorts afterwords. You have to love him.
Phoenix1983
G.O.A.T.
Wawrinka knew how to dismantle Novak Djokovic, for sure. Shame he has fallen so far from his best.
One thing I am interested is if Djokovic ends up tied/ahead of Federer and/or Nadal in slam wins, how many people will bring up how poorly he did against a relative also ran (among greats) like Wawrinka when Federer and Nadal handled him so easily. I could see that happening a lot and some interesting debates stemming from that.
Djokodalerer31
Hall of Fame
Wawrinka doesn't lead him at grand slams, so stop the nonsense! He only defeated hi mtwice in finals, in one of them Novak came in disadvantage depleted from his semi-final two-day thriller with Murray, second time he was glad he even reached the final on the first place, because he thought of even skipping the tournament entirely! LOL first time its a physical thing, second defeat due to mental burnout...not so much of an achievement...if Wawrinka had a "luck" to run into the same Djokovic, that we have seen in AO 2019 final against Nadal he would get his a-s-s straight setted, just like Rafa and maybe even get a breadstick or a baggel along the way!
A lot of what you said is speculation, what people will judge is what actually happened. Fact is even an old way past his prime Federer had it easy with Wawrinka outside of clay, while prime/peak Djokovic had a hard time and took some losses even on hard courts. An old way past his prime Nadal had it pretty easy for the most part apart from 1 loss.
D
Deleted member 735320
Guest
When Stan plays a decent match or two in a row, let us know. Maybe he and RF could go on a retirement tour together. Good riddance.
underground
G.O.A.T.
Novak was too passive that day. But, Stan is only one of the few people that can make him pay for it.
ForehandRF
Legend
I believe Djokovic underestimated Wawrinka in 2015 RG final; he didn't expected such a high level of tennis from his opponent.Stan played one of the best matches in the history of Roland Garros, everything was perfect for him that day.
Nole was gassed in RG 2015, he was over confident, he wasn't prepared, there are a lot of things. If you remember the match closely, he was challenging like crazy for almost every shot Wawarinka hit on the line, specially in the first two sets. That showed he just wasn't prepared for the battle, wanted the easy way out. And that's what Becker said too,he wanted to win it easily. Also, he was just over using the drop shots, again it showed his lack of intent for a fight.
If you remember this years AO before Medvedev,everyone believed this was going to be a battle, since Med lost just one match in the whole year and no sets in AO open, Novak was quoted" I am ready for a battle for as long as it plays out" something like that. It showed he was prepared.
US 16 Final was just a non event. Novak was burnt out badly by then, he played like a drunk man during the whole Tournament, I was surprised he reached the finals.Taking no credit from the opponent, you still need to be in Top Form to take out out of form Novak and Wawarnka did that.
But somehow I feel, he just doesn't feel as eager to beat Wawarinka as he does facing Fedal, it just doesn't get him in the mood as much as facing Fedal.
Also, the Myth of Wawarinka was born because Nole was too passive, allowed him to hit into form. Otherwise, why Stanimal came from the 2nd Set onwards, why didn't he come in the first set?
If you remember this years AO before Medvedev,everyone believed this was going to be a battle, since Med lost just one match in the whole year and no sets in AO open, Novak was quoted" I am ready for a battle for as long as it plays out" something like that. It showed he was prepared.
US 16 Final was just a non event. Novak was burnt out badly by then, he played like a drunk man during the whole Tournament, I was surprised he reached the finals.Taking no credit from the opponent, you still need to be in Top Form to take out out of form Novak and Wawarnka did that.
But somehow I feel, he just doesn't feel as eager to beat Wawarinka as he does facing Fedal, it just doesn't get him in the mood as much as facing Fedal.
Also, the Myth of Wawarinka was born because Nole was too passive, allowed him to hit into form. Otherwise, why Stanimal came from the 2nd Set onwards, why didn't he come in the first set?
Flash O'Groove
Hall of Fame
I fully agree that Wawrinka's peak match-up well with Djokovic, and that's why as an inferior player overall, he has none the less been able to have a lot of success against Djokovic.
In a a normal day, Wawrinka would try to attack Djokovic, get frustrated with Djokovic's defense, then overhit and finally implode. On a peak day however, he can stay in long rallies, be patient, and slowly improve the pressure on Djokovic until he has the right opening for the finishing winner. He can feed and grow from the rythm Djokovic give him (which for example he couldn't do against the variety of Murray at RG 2016). In my opinion, Djokovic's being on top of his game or not is not important for this to be true: others players play Djokovic when he is not at his absolute top, and mostly they fail, including Nadal and Federer. So Wawrinka does have something that allow him to pass the hurdle despite the fact that Djokovic's level is so consistently high. RG 2015 might not have been the best Djokovic, but still it took a breathtaking performance from Stan to beat him and others would have failed in his stead.
Also peak Wawrinka remain vulnerable to others players like Nadal (still too hard to deal with the forehand on the backhand) and Federer (can hold his service game thanks to his superior offensive skills and serve), or even Murray's mastermind variety (RG 2016). In the recent years, I think there weren't really any other players good enough to beat prime Wawrinka, although anyone can beat him in an off day.
If there weren't match-up, tennis would be a lot less interesting.
Z
Djokovic played well in the first set, but zverevs monster serve broke him. He simply gave up after the first set
Djokovic played well in the first set, but zverevs monster serve broke him. He simply gave up after the first set
Tshooter
G.O.A.T.
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