Perpetual defensive topspin lob rally?

TimeToPlaySets

TimeToPlaySets

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Yesterday, I was practicing rally ball depth with a partner.
Both of us needed to work on shot tolerance.
The goal was to hit the ball deep with huge net clearance with max topspin.
The goal was to have your deep rally ball generate a short reply for an approach shot to finish the point.

I was hitting heavy depth and really pushing him back.
The ball was also bouncing high, so he was almost at the curtain sometimes.
He would try to attack that deep ball, and it often caused a UE.

So, I also advised my partner to try hitting a defensive topspin lob when he is pushed that far back.
This is what I was taught, and it reliably keeps me in the point.
The partner picked up this concept quickly, and instantly the rallies went from 3-4 shots to 10+ shots.
He was staying in the point, and his own deep lob returns were now forcing short balls from me.

But now, we were both using the same strategy.
When pushed back by a high bouncing topspin lob, we both would just topspin lob it back.
It was like we were stuck in a loop, since the easiest reply to a lob is a lob.

I rarely see this happen in other matches (mostly since points never last this long)
So, I am not sure what to make of it, when points start looking like this (moonball rally)
Eventually, if his lob was low or shorter, I would come forward and flatten out the return into a hard FH.
Is that the only way to break the loop?


3 great high ball returns at :45, :47, and :50
This is what I mean by perpetual moonball rally.
 
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TimeToPlaySets said:
Yesterday, I was practicing rally ball depth with a partner.
Both of us needed to work on shot tolerance.
The goal was to hit the ball deep with huge net clearance with max topspin.
The goal was to have your deep rally ball generate a short reply for an approach shot to finish the point.

I was hitting heavy depth and really pushing him back.
The ball was also bouncing high, so he was almost at the curtain sometimes.
He would try to attack that deep ball, and it often caused a UE.

So, I also advised my partner to try hitting a defensive topspin lob when he is pushed that far back.
This is what I was taught, and it reliably keeps me in the point.
The partner picked up this concept quickly, and instantly the rallies went from 3-4 shots to 10+ shots.
He was staying in the point, and his own deep lob returns were now forcing short balls from me.

But now, we were both using the same strategy.
When pushed back by a high bouncing topspin lob, we both would just topspin lob it back.
It was like we were stuck in a loop, since the easiest reply to a lob is a lob.

I rarely see this happen in other matches (mostly since points never last this long)
So, I am not sure what to make of it, when points start looking like this (moonball rally)
Eventually, if his lob was low or shorter, I would come forward and flatten out the return into a hard FH.
Is that the only way to break the loop?
Click to expand...
You need a stronger OH shot to win this pattern.

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk
 
you can break the loop:

1. by stepping in and taking the ball out of the air with an approach volley - you don't see this in pro tennis much any longer but in the 1970s and 1980s this was fairly common. Jimmy Connors was a master at stepping in and taking moon balls out of the air.
2. or you can step in and hit the ball on the rise.
3. You can also step back and try to hit a crisp high topper to their weaker side where you are less likely to get the deep high roller back. you may have to change direction and go DTL to get to their weaker side but if you are careful and realize you are just trying to get the ball to their weaker side and not going for a DTL winner, you can do it.

I hit drills with a guy who use the high topspin FH a lot. I usually go with option 2 or 3 above and will occasionally go with option 1. Of course, patience is the other option and sometimes you just have to hang in there until they leave one a little short or lower.
 
This is what happens when players can't hit offensive shoulder height and higher forehands. I love when people hit me these shots. Aim for the corner, unload a completely flat FH, follow it in to volley away the inevitable weak defensive reply.

Or if the pace/spin is so amazing (unlikely) that you really can't time a shoulder height FH you can wait until the last moment b/f they hit the moonball and charge in, take it out of the air, direct to a corner, volley away the reply.
 
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You don't need a killer shot to get out of this pattern, just aim the next lob at his backhand. I would be very surprised if a player at that level can hit a deep backhand topspin lob.
 
zaph said:
You don't need a killer shot to get out of this pattern, just aim the next lob at his backhand. I would be very surprised if a player at that level can hit a deep backhand topspin lob.
Click to expand...

Good point. Most reply lobs from that side will come in weakly.
Instead of forcing the attack on a midLob, I just kept it going.
Eventually, I got a legitimate short ball and I didn't need to force it.

Now that I think about it, the 10 ball lob rally was the exception to the rule.
Most of the time, I'd get a short ball (or UE) within 3 lobs or less.
 
vex said:
This is what happens when players can't hit offensive shoulder height and higher forehands. I love when people hit me these shots. Aim for the corner, unload a completely flat FH, follow it in to volley away the inevitable weak defensive reply.

Or if the pace/spin is so amazing (unlikely) that you really can't time a shoulder height FH you can wait until the last moment b/f they hit the moonball and charge in, take it out of the air, direct to a corner, volley away the reply.
Click to expand...

Yes, my eyeball level FH is out of practice. I drilled that over the summer, but prefer to topLob it back.
For the eye level FH, my coach had me do a very high take back ("High to high"), and it was often a flat deep reply.

My topLob is so good right now that I don't feel the pressure to to the flat high FH.
But, I will give it a try next time I do this drill (rally->approach->volley)

My topLob is much better than the typical 3.5 topLob.
I take a 100% cut and spin the crap out of the ball.
It's a beautiful shot to watch. And a very offensive one under 5.0
 
TennisCJC said:
I hit drills with a guy who use the high topspin FH a lot. I usually go with option 2 or 3 above and will occasionally go with option 1. Of course, patience is the other option and sometimes you just have to hang in there until they leave one a little short or lower.
Click to expand...

To clarify, this is not a baseline groundstroke high topspin FH.
This is a specific reply to a very deep high bouncing ball that is at eye level.
For a basic rally ball that is waist high and in front of me, I pound it low, not topLob.
 
I often "slice serve" them back. Works *at my level* well enough, opponent loses the control a bit, and give me something easier. I've practiced killing high short balls flat with a downwards follow through, so that is of course the course of action if the opponents hits a short one. I can also hit relatively well from the rise, which might be a choice (as an approach shot), though risky.
 
weelie said:
I often "slice serve" them back. Works *at my level* well enough, opponent loses the control a bit, and give me something easier. I've practiced killing high short balls flat with a downwards follow through, so that is of course the course of action if the opponents hits a short one. I can also hit relatively well from the rise, which might be a choice (as an approach shot), though risky.
Click to expand...

Yes, I also sometimes "serve slice" but that tends to be a lower control shot (sails long, sails wide)
I find my topLob return is more +EV than a serve slice. I might do that if I am inside the baseline.
In general, I prefer not to overhead from behind the baseline.
 
You do realize that some, if not a lot, of the advice your world class coach gave you might be specific to your case knowing that teaching you stronger offensive skills might be a tall order? Most great coaches try to work within the context of a student's inherent limitations.

As for the solution someone had already posted this a while ago. Sneak up on one of the moonballs and take your opponent's shot in the air and try to finish up the point.
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
Yes, my eyeball level FH is out of practice. I drilled that over the summer, but prefer to topLob it back.
For the eye level FH, my coach had me do a very high take back ("High to high"), and it was often a flat deep reply.

My topLob is so good right now that I don't feel the pressure to to the flat high FH.
But, I will give it a try next time I do this drill (rally->approach->volley)

My topLob is much better than the typical 3.5 topLob.
I take a 100% cut and spin the crap out of the ball.
It's a beautiful shot to watch. And a very offensive one under 5.0
Click to expand...

What if he targets your BH?
 
mcs1970 said:
You do realize that some, if not a lot, of the advice your world class coach gave you might be specific to your case knowing that teaching you stronger offensive skills might be a tall order? Most great coaches try to work within the context of a student's inherent limitations.
.
Click to expand...

Works against anything under 5.0, so it's fine for this lifetime.
This guy was a smart player that crushed "dumb players" who take stupid risks.
 
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TimeToPlaySets said:
I'm setting I rarely see this happen in other matches (mostly since points never last this long)
So, I am not sure what to make of it, when points start looking like this (moonball rally)
Eventually, if his lob was low or shorter, I would come forward and flatten out the return into a hard FH.
Is that the only way to break the loop?
Click to expand...
There is no way to break this pattern and it becomes an infinite loop. There are 2 guys on court 3 right now that have been playing the same rally since 1947.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
What if he targets your BH?
Click to expand...
my eye level backhand lob is pretty solid at this point. Well not as vicious as the topspin forehand LOB, I can reliably hit it back hi deep and with spin.

Sometimes I incorporate medium lob with my backhand even in normal rallying because it's such a high percentage shot that will not be attacked

But this thread is giving me a good idea. Normally at eye level, I just lob it back without thinking of placement I just only think spin. Now I'm going to try to hit it to their back hand side
 
r2473 said:
There is no way to break this pattern and it becomes an infinite loop. There are 2 guys on court 3 right now that have been playing the same rally since 1947.
Click to expand...
Actually what seems to happen is the lobs get bigger and bigger and higher and deeper until they become unhittable... Skimming the ceiling..... And then the short ball
 
Might be semantics, but I define an approach shot as a weak short ball that you run forward to, and angle away.
For my skill level, replying a tobLob with my own topLob is the high % play. To get to 4.0, high % is the mindset I'll be taking.
It's easier to miscue and hit a short hop short. I know my topLob will always be deep.
 
vex said:
This is what happens when players can't hit offensive shoulder height and higher forehands.
Click to expand...

That is precisely why we started this drill.
I noticed that my topLobs were generally my last shot in the point. (his UE)
My opponent does not hit a flat eyelevel FH, but also did not topLob back, either.
He was mostly trying to take a regular groundstroke, and launching it long.
That is when I suggested me join the topLob club, and stay in the point longer.
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
Might be semantics, but I define an approach shot as a weak short ball that you run forward to, and angle away.
Click to expand...

An approach is any shot that you follow into the net. It doesn't have to be in response to a weak, short ball; it doesn't have to be angled away [approaching DTM straight at one's opponent is a valid and overlooked tactic].

An extreme example: in doubles, we are both at net. We get lobbed. I run back behind the BL, counter-lob, notice my opponents haven't taken the net, and I run back to the net. That counter-lob was an approach, technically.

I don't think this is just semantics: if you look at it in the more general way, it broadens your horizons of what can get you into the net, IMO.
 
I've seen everyone up to 4.5 struggle with this ball. So the derision in this thread seems unjustified. I've used this tactic before and it works against a lot of otherwise good players. A good topspin moonball is hard to hit aggressively with a volley or half volley. It's moving vertically with topspin and will tend to float off your racket. It kicks hard enough off the court, it throws your timing off if you try to take it early.

We have a 4.0 player at our club that specializes in this tactic and he's tough to beat. You can get into these endless rallies until one of you messes up, or you can try to break it up and screw up yourself. Pick your poison.

Best answer I've found is to take it at the apex and slice a ball CC and short.
 
Dartagnan64 said:
I've seen everyone up to 4.5 struggle with this ball. So the derision in this thread seems unjustified. I've used this tactic before and it works against a lot of otherwise good players. A good topspin moonball is hard to hit aggressively with a volley or half volley. It's moving vertically with topspin and will tend to float off your racket. It kicks hard enough off the court, it throws your timing off if you try to take it early.

We have a 4.0 player at our club that specializes in this tactic and he's tough to beat. You can get into these endless rallies until one of you messes up, or you can try to break it up and screw up yourself. Pick your poison.

Best answer I've found is to take it at the apex and slice a ball CC and short.
Click to expand...
The shot is legit. But OP said cooperative rallying during practice is a waste of time. Under this premise, the perpetual toplob rally is cooperative rallying and therefore is a waste of time! Plus you should practice skills you need for match play. In match play, you should try to disrupt your opponents rhythm. Perpetual rallying is the opposite of disrupting rhythm. :D
 
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TimeToPlaySets said:
I'm setting myself up for 2.5 ridicule here, but here goes...

Yesterday, I was practicing rally ball depth with a partner.
Both of us needed to work on shot tolerance.
The goal was to hit the ball deep with huge net clearance with max topspin.
The goal was to have your deep rally ball generate a short reply for an approach shot to finish the point.

I was hitting heavy depth and really pushing him back.
The ball was also bouncing high, so he was almost at the curtain sometimes.
He would try to attack that deep ball, and it often caused a UE.

So, I also advised my partner to try hitting a defensive topspin lob when he is pushed that far back.
This is what I was taught, and it reliably keeps me in the point.
The partner picked up this concept quickly, and instantly the rallies went from 3-4 shots to 10+ shots.
He was staying in the point, and his own deep lob returns were now forcing short balls from me.

But now, we were both using the same strategy.
When pushed back by a high bouncing topspin lob, we both would just topspin lob it back.
It was like we were stuck in a loop, since the easiest reply to a lob is a lob.

I rarely see this happen in other matches (mostly since points never last this long)
So, I am not sure what to make of it, when points start looking like this (moonball rally)
Eventually, if his lob was low or shorter, I would come forward and flatten out the return into a hard FH.
Is that the only way to break the loop?
Click to expand...
After a few years of playing ghetto tennis on hardcourts with dead balls, this became the norm for us also. Actually I developed a very stylish and federer-esque forehand drive volley to deal with this nonsense rally. I'd lose that rally more often than not, because i was less fit. So it was out of necessity really.
 
Dartagnan64 said:
I've seen everyone up to 4.5 struggle with this ball. So the derision in this thread seems unjustified. I've used this tactic before and it works against a lot of otherwise good players. A good topspin moonball is hard to hit aggressively with a volley or half volley. It's moving vertically with topspin and will tend to float off your racket. It kicks hard enough off the court, it throws your timing off if you try to take it early.

We have a 4.0 player at our club that specializes in this tactic and he's tough to beat. You can get into these endless rallies until one of you messes up, or you can try to break it up and screw up yourself. Pick your poison.

Best answer I've found is to take it at the apex and slice a ball CC and short.
Click to expand...

The premise of this thread is strange because he's asking how to break out of a perpetual moon ball rally. I've agreed with TTPS before when he embarked on his high clearance strategy with 70% pace that it was a good way to go and that a lot of pros hit it with much more clearance than we think. However, if his world class coach told him to employ this strategy, wouldn't the coach tell him how to look for opportunities to move in when the opponent is also using the same strategy? It's like an instructor teaching how to take off but not to land. No world class coach that I know of will tell someone to just mindlessly hit soft balls (and no...I don't believe the story about vicious cuts with massive topspin based on the videos I've seen) and just wait for an opponent to make a mistake.
 
@mcs1970
I believe the huge cuts generating massive topspin...but I also believe those will land right in front of your feet because they have so much spin. After all, more topspin just means the ball will never clear the net! :D
 
mad dog1 said:
@mcs1970
I believe the huge cuts generating massive topspin...but I also believe those will land right in front of your feet because they have so much spin. After all, more topspin just means the ball will never clear the net! :D
Click to expand...

Fwiw, in a match if I'm in position I started to step into those balls, especially on the bh side (2nd hand helps). Also been practicing the high bh slice - pros make that shot looks so easy, but it aint. But if out of position, looping those back is the high % play.
In practice, however, I'd never loop it - that's just a wasted practice-a-better shot opportunity.
 
mcs1970 said:
The premise of this thread is strange because he's asking how to break out of a perpetual moon ball rally. I've agreed with TTPS before when he embarked on his high clearance strategy with 70% pace that it was a good way to go and that a lot of pros hit it with much more clearance than we think. However, if his world class coach told him to employ this strategy, wouldn't the coach tell him how to look for opportunities to move in when the opponent is also using the same strategy? It's like an instructor teaching how to take off but not to land. No world class coach that I know of will tell someone to just mindlessly hit soft balls (and no...I don't believe the story about vicious cuts with massive topspin based on the videos I've seen) and just wait for an opponent to make a mistake.
Click to expand...

Yea, the idea is to generate a short ball. And then attack it.
Against someone not well versed in the art of topLob, it is usually a winner.
However, when both players can counterplay the topLob, it's much harder to generate a short ball.

Eventually, one of 3 things happens:
1) someone screws up their tobLob because it's impossible to return when it skims the ceiling and lands on the baseline.
2) They try to short hop it and mess it up.
3) They can't topLob is back and hit it short.
 
Dartagnan64 said:
I've seen everyone up to 4.5 struggle with this ball. So the derision in this thread seems unjustified. I've used this tactic before and it works against a lot of otherwise good players. A good topspin moonball is hard to hit aggressively with a volley or half volley. It's moving vertically with topspin and will tend to float off your racket. It kicks hard enough off the court, it throws your timing off if you try to take it early.

We have a 4.0 player at our club that specializes in this tactic and he's tough to beat. You can get into these endless rallies until one of you messes up, or you can try to break it up and screw up yourself. Pick your poison.

Best answer I've found is to take it at the apex and slice a ball CC and short.
Click to expand...
Yes, this is pretty much the @tlm tactic, no?
 
Dartagnan64 said:
I've seen everyone up to 4.5 struggle with this ball. So the derision in this thread seems unjustified. I've used this tactic before and it works against a lot of otherwise good players. A good topspin moonball is hard to hit aggressively with a volley or half volley. It's moving vertically with topspin and will tend to float off your racket. It kicks hard enough off the court, it throws your timing off if you try to take it early.

We have a 4.0 player at our club that specializes in this tactic and he's tough to beat. You can get into these endless rallies until one of you messes up, or you can try to break it up and screw up yourself. Pick your poison.

Best answer I've found is to take it at the apex and slice a ball CC and short.
Click to expand...
On a technical level, I don't have an issue hitting aggressive forehands off high balls, but for me the trouble comes when it is thrown in irregularly.

Cough those balls up once in a blue moon in a game situation and I'm 70% likely to sling that ball into the back fence. Cough them up once in a blue moon in a (non-cooperative) practice and I'll smack them anywhere for winners / to set up a putaway. Cough them up regularly in a practice or a game, and I'm going to groove into the shot and it won't be a problem.

I guess this means I just need to practise them more.

Absolutely no issue dealing with these on my backhand side. I can hit them down flat, topspin lob back, or hit a decently-angled shot to set myself up for the next shot.
 
jm1980 said:
Yes, this is pretty much the @tlm tactic, no?
Click to expand...

I do use this a lot but my shots aren’t lobs though. Probably average 4-7’ over the net and it works pretty well. I can hit topspin loopers side to side pretty consistently and this throws a lot of players off their game.
 
Bender said:
On a technical level, I don't have an issue hitting aggressive forehands off high balls, but for me the trouble comes when it is thrown in irregularly.

Cough those balls up once in a blue moon in a game situation and I'm 70% likely to sling that ball into the back fence. Cough them up once in a blue moon in a (non-cooperative) practice and I'll smack them anywhere for winners / to set up a putaway. Cough them up regularly in a practice or a game, and I'm going to groove into the shot and it won't be a problem.

I guess this means I just need to practise them more.

Absolutely no issue dealing with these on my backhand side. I can hit them down flat, topspin lob back, or hit a decently-angled shot to set myself up for the next shot.
Click to expand...


There is a difference between a lob and a good kicking topspin shot. I’ve rarely seen a player that can attack a deep kicking looper consistently especially off the backhand side.
 
tlm said:
There is a difference between a lob and a good kicking topspin shot. I’ve rarely seen a player that can attack a deep kicking looper consistently especially off the backhand side.
Click to expand...
I'm lucky in that I'm very good at hitting hard and flat, on the rise on my backhand side. I almost never give up court positioning off my backhand wing--I can virtually half-volley off the baseline on that wing without much difficulty, and still hit them back with interest.

Obviously it's not going to hold up against someone like Nadal or (more realistically) some 5.0 Nadal lite, but against most topspin forehands going to my backhand side (especially against lefties), it holds up pretty well.

My ROS on that wing is better as well, so most people I play with, including lefties end up serving to my forehand, and taking chances during rallies to my forehand instead, because my forehand breaks down a lot more often than I would like.

I tend to overhit or underhit on that wing if I am off my rhythm.

Not saying I'm sort of amateur Safin or Djokovic, but my backhand is the most reliable part of my game, which is extremely weird even for me considering how little effort I've put into it to improve it.
 
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my $0.02.
i practice the deep heavy topspin lob drill from time to time...
it's a great strategy, and great tool to have in the toolbox.

honestly, if you can just lob the ball high (topspin or not) and hit within 1 ft of the baseline, you could probably win through the 5.0 level (presuming your conditioning is excellent, because you'll be running ALOT) before folks have enough fire power to move you out completely out of your comfort zone (ie. illicit a short ball)... santoro was a master at this (but even he eventually gave up a short ball).

this will be you:

the things that would counter my "lobbing" plan:
* i can't lob everything deep consistently... eventually i'll hit a short ball... ie after getting moved all over the court
* i find it harder to lob every shot, than drive through it.... lobbing the lob is easiest, but lob a short slice ball is tough
* i better have the conditioning to play the attrition game
* better players will:
1) hit a swinging groundie out of the air, and approach
2) lob and approach, wait for the OH (or swinging volley)
3) take it on the rise
4) maneuver you til you're running out of your comfort zone

against folks that can't step it (ie. 3.5-low4.0), the lobbing strat is excellent... even at mid-low 4.5 you'll find folks that will have trouble with this style (presuming you're consistent with it)
 
An opponent regularly gave me lobs in our recent match
I tried to step in and hit it on the short hop, and I framed it.
So much for that.
 
This week, I started to hit the topLob to the BH.
When I hit this ball in perpetual rally, there is plenty of time to aim it.
Very effective. Some don't come back, and any that do are short.
TopLob to the BH and I take a few steps inside the baseline.
Then I hit to the open court, and make him run a bit.

Thanks for the tip. @zaph
 
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