Peter Freeman on Mental Game

100% right

Just because your strokes are technically and mechanically better doesn't mean they are better strokes.

They have better ceiling and higher potential sure... but if you have been playing with your technically and mechanically better strokes for 6 months, and someone is playing with their worse ones for 15 years, your strokes are nowhere near as good, consistent and good under pressure than their strokes, at least not yet.
Their strokes have 100 more reps, so its completely natural that they are more solid and consistent.
But if you keep at it and work at it for years and years, its inevitable that you will pass the guy with worse technique and mechanics, their strokes are limited to a certain ceiling, and your strokes have a higher ceiling.
You just have to keep working hard on it, have alot of passion for the sport, enjoy playing, enjoy the process, enjoy the practice, have fun, enjoy the journey, don't think about losing to someone with uglier strokes, think of matches, sets, points as a stepping stone, an opportunity to work on your strokes under pressure, improve them, as a learning thing both physically and mentally, not about winning or losing, thats not important at this point in your journey.
 
Wow that is awesome!! @FiReFTW I want to address your specific comments as they relate to this podcast and my own experiences...

I picked up a racquet with the intent to learn to ACTUALLY play tennis in January of 2017. My thinking at that time was that I wanted to learn to be a REAL tennis player - with proper strokes and with good mechanics. At that time I was using a bunch of online instruction to get the hang of hitting with topspin and serving with an advanced service motion and within a couple months of that, had engaged a coach for regular weekly instruction. Meanwhile some folks on the neighborhood mixed dubs team saw me and my wife working on the courts every day and asked us to join the team, which we did. The captain of the team was a big blowhard who didn't play himself, but was full of advice for everyone else and he was all about having a winning league team at the 3.0 to 3.5 level and he preached simple mechanics. He fancied himself a coach, but when I really pushed him on details of his philosophy of the game and whatnot, it turned out all he was preaching was to be consistent and dumb down the technique until you can do it reliably as a 3.0/3.5 player and never worry about being any better than that. He preached flat shots and "cut shots" which is his term for hacky slices on forehand and backhand - old school wooden racquet stuff - and he preached "just get the point started" on the serve with remarks like "in any given game, how many of the total strokes are your serve? Seven, ten percent? Just get the thing in and get the point started." (When I would argue this point with him, I'd go out and show him with a love hold and 3 aces, how many strokes in the game were my serve...) He'd tell women "just keep the point alive for your male partner to put it away, don't go for a winner over just keeping the ball alive..." and on and on and on... So basically I said "f*ck this guy" and didn't listen to a word he had to say, even when he was criticizing my game to others without specifically mentioning me, but talking about my "complicated" forehand/backhand strokes and emphasis on the serve... he'd pantomime his idea of a "good enough" forehand or backhand - with this hacky sh*tty sorta-slice "cut shot" swing... and then pantomime my stroke, exaggerating the loopiness and takeback and everything... I'd just laugh and played my game.

Anyway, my philosophy was that there is a reason why the pros hit with these elaborate "looping" strokes to impart topspin on the ball, and hit serves with a proper motion, and slice properly rather than these sh*tty little cut shots all the time, and that reason was that this was what was required for them to hit this way, given the current racquet and string technology, they were maximizing performance with that technique. As a rec player, I figured that having that proper technique meant that I had a much higher ceiling on the performance I could achieve. I LITERALLY used that exact language talking to my coach a couple weeks ago. He was talking about this 3.0 women's dubs team that he teaches group lessons to and how they have so many bad habits from other coaches and were so complacent with their individual games and mechanics (women's ALTA teams especially, as opposed to men's ALTA teams in this region are HUGE on taking group lessons). I was talking to my coach about this and about many of the other coaches in the area and what they do and why I insisted that he teach me to be a REAL tennis player, not an ALTA hack. Even though Wilson wasn't ever going to be knocking on my door to sponsor me, I know that the ceiling on REAL strokes is much higher. I went on a little rant to my coach saying "What's the ceiling on the waiter's tray serve? For a man, maybe, MAYBE a 90 mph skidder if you're REALLY strong and your elbow can take it and you practice it for 10 years, you'll get that to the point that you get it in 70% of the time, and just like the fastball, everyone can hit it once they get used to it. What's the ceiling on a proper serve motion? The ceiling is John f*cking Isner, that's what the ceiling is... huge pace, kickers that bounce over peoples heads, and/or slices that take them 10 feet off the court, THAT's the ceiling, John Fkn Isner." He laughed his a** off (I think he was imagining trying to give THAT speech to his 3.0 women's dubs team haha), but admitted the truth of what I was saying... anyway...

I hang out with my coach from time to time off the court - as a pal, drinking beers, cooking out, whatever, and occasionaly at his backyard cookouts he has some of his other teaching pro friends come over - and we BS about politics, ATP/WTA current events, golf, whatever... I asked these guys one time "What do you guys think about ALTA?" The one coach said "Are you kidding? We have ALTA to thank for our livelihoods! ALTA is the reason we are here!" I acknowledge the truth of this and then I asked "But I mean, what do you think of the typical ALTA player's approach to the game?" That same coach laughed and pantomimed to me these hacky sh*tty "cut shot" strokes on his forehand and backhand *just* like the old team captain I spoke about above did, but this coach was demonstrating with disdain and derision. He said "You mean this?" and I laughed and laughed and laughed...

The old blowhard captain had a point with his approach - if your only aspiration is to play and win at 3.0/3.5, then that's what you do... but you have to accept that as your ceiling. I don't accept that as my ceiling and I am willing to take a beating for a while until I get my own game in order, at which point I'll be passing those hacks by (after whipping their a**es for a bit).

@TimeToPlaySets thanks for sharing this podcast and especially pointing out this particular gem in the middle of it. This is more advice I will be taking to heart!
 
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Wow that is awesome!! @FiReFTW I want to address your specific comments as they relate to this podcast and my own experiences...

I picked up a racquet with the intent to learn to ACTUALLY play tennis in January of 2017. My thinking at that time was that I wanted to learn to be a REAL tennis player - with proper strokes and with good mechanics. At that time I was using a bunch of online instruction to get the hang of hitting with topspin and serving with an advanced service motion and within a couple months of that, had engaged a coach for regular weekly instruction. Meanwhile some folks on the neighborhood mixed dubs team saw me and my wife working on the courts every day and asked us to join the team, which we did. The captain of the team was a big blowhard who didn't play himself, but was full of advice for everyone else and he was all about having a winning league team at the 3.0 to 3.5 level and he preached simple mechanics. He fancied himself a coach, but when I really pushed him on details of his philosophy of the game and whatnot, it turned out all he was preaching was to be consistent and dumb down the technique until you can do it reliably as a 3.0/3.5 player and never worry about being any better than that. He preached flat shots and "cut shots" which is his term for hacky slices on forehand and backhand - old school wooden racquet stuff - and he preached "just get the point started" on the serve with remarks like "in any given game, how many of the total strokes are your serve? Seven, ten percent? Just get the thing in and get the point started." (When I would argue this point with him, I'd go out and show him with a love hold and 3 aces, how many strokes in the game were my serve...) He'd tell women "just keep the point alive for your male partner to put it away, don't go for a winner over just keeping the ball alive..." and on and on and on... So basically I said "f*ck this guy" and didn't listen to a word he had to say, even when he was criticizing my game to others without specifically mentioning me, but talking about my "complicated" forehand/backhand strokes and emphasis on the serve... he'd pantomime his idea of a "good enough" forehand or backhand - with this hacky sh*tty sorta-slice "cut shot" swing... and then pantomime my stroke, exaggerating the loopiness and takeback and everything... I'd just laugh and played my game.

Anyway, my philosophy was that there is a reason why the pros hit with these elaborate "looping" strokes to impart topspin on the ball, and hit serves with a proper motion, and slice properly rather than these sh*tty little cut shots all the time, and that reason was that this was what was required for them to hit this way, given the current racquet and string technology, they were maximizing performance with that technique. As a rec player, I figured that having that proper technique meant that I had a much higher ceiling on the performance I could achieve. I LITERALLY used that exact language talking to my coach a couple weeks ago. He was talking about this 3.0 women's dubs team that he teaches group lessons to and how they have so many bad habits from other coaches and were so complacent with their individual games and mechanics (women's ALTA teams especially, as opposed to men's ALTA teams in this region are HUGE on taking group lessons). I was talking to my coach about this and about many of the other coaches in the area and what they do and why I insisted that he teach me to be a REAL tennis player, not an ALTA hack. Even though Wilson wasn't ever going to be knocking on my door to sponsor me, I know that the ceiling on REAL strokes is much higher. I went on a little rant to my coach saying "What's the ceiling on the waiter's tray serve? For a man, maybe, MAYBE a 90 mph skidder if you're REALLY strong and your elbow can take it and you practice it for 10 years, you'll get that to the point that you get it in 70% of the time, and just like the fastball, everyone can hit it once they get used to it. What's the ceiling on a proper serve motion? The ceiling is John f*cking Isner, that's what the ceiling is... huge pace, kickers that bounce over peoples heads, and/or slices that take them 10 feet off the court, THAT's the ceiling, John Fkn Isner." He laughed his a** off (I think he was imagining trying to give THAT speech to his 3.0 women's dubs team haha), but admitted the truth of what I was saying... anyway...

I hang out with my coach from time to time off the court - as a pal, drinking beers, cooking out, whatever, and occasionaly at his backyard cookouts he has some of his other teaching pro friends come over - and we BS about politics, ATP/WTA current events, golf, whatever... I asked these guys one time "What do you guys think about ALTA?" The one coach said "Are you kidding? We have ALTA to thank for our livelihoods! ALTA is the reason we are here!" I acknowledge the truth of this and then I asked "But I mean, what do you think of the typical ALTA player's approach to the game?" That same coach laughed and pantomimed to me these hacky sh*tty "cut shot" strokes on his forehand and backhand *just* like the old team captain I spoke about above did, but this coach was demonstrating with disdain and derision. He said "You mean this?" and I laughed and laughed and laughed...

The old blowhard captain had a point with his approach - if your only aspiration is to play and win at 3.0/3.5, then that's what you do... but you have to accept that as your ceiling. I don't accept that as my ceiling and I am willing to take a beating for a while until I get my own game in order, at which point I'll be passing those hacks by (after whipping their a**es for a bit).

@TimeToPlaySets thanks for sharing this podcast and especially pointing out this particular gem in the middle of it. This is more advice I will be taking to heart!

Well said and great story.

Thats why it depends what your goal is.

First thing me and my coach talked about is my goal, and only when we were both clear of my goal did we start talking what the plan is to reach that goal.

If someones goal is to play casual tennis with friends and wants to get better as soon as possible and with 5 lessons in the next 1 month, then he does not need complex high level strokes, because in such a short time he wont even come close to executing them yet alone consistently.

So his lessons should be tailored to his goals, a more simple motion with some corrrections in some mechanics to make it more effective as much as it can be done in such a short time.

If someones goal is high level tennis, as high as possible, like my goal is for example, and im willing to put time, dedication, effort and sacrifice things..then everything completely changes.

Theres no longer a short term goal, theres a long term goal, and many many short term targets, proper technique and proper mechanics to maximize the strokes and level and give the highest possible ceiling.
And this from GROUND up, everything, not only strokes but footwork, fitness, tactical, mental etc...

And in this case, results are the lowest thing on the priority list, infact you have to be willing to sacrifice results for a long time while u build such a player, and he has to be willing to accept that, as part of the process, otherwise it cant work.
 
Well said and great story.

Thats why it depends what your goal is.

First thing me and my coach talked about is my goal, and only when we were both clear of my goal did we start talking what the plan is to reach that goal.

If someones goal is to play casual tennis with friends and wants to get better as soon as possible and with 5 lessons in the next 1 month, then he does not need complex high level strokes, because in such a short time he wont even come close to executing them yet alone consistently.

So his lessons should be tailored to his goals, a more simple motion with some corrrections in some mechanics to make it more effective as much as it can be done in such a short time.

If someones goal is high level tennis, as high as possible, like my goal is for example, and im willing to put time, dedication, effort and sacrifice things..then everything completely changes.

Theres no longer a short term goal, theres a long term goal, and many many short term targets, proper technique and proper mechanics to maximize the strokes and level and give the highest possible ceiling.
And this from GROUND up, everything, not only strokes but footwork, fitness, tactical, mental etc...

And in this case, results are the lowest thing on the priority list, infact you have to be willing to sacrifice results for a long time while u build such a player, and he has to be willing to accept that, as part of the process, otherwise it cant work.
Amen! I could break down your post and take each sentence line by line, but I'd only be saying the same thing - "Yep, agreed!" ESPECIALLY your last point, which I am bringing forward again for emphasis:

And in this case, results are the lowest thing on the priority list, infact you have to be willing to sacrifice results for a long time while u build such a player, and he has to be willing to accept that, as part of the process, otherwise it cant work.

It seems you and I and TTPS are all on a similar/same wavelength about this.
 
Amen! I could break down your post and take each sentence line by line, but I'd only be saying the same thing - "Yep, agreed!" ESPECIALLY your last point, which I am bringing forward again for emphasis:

And in this case, results are the lowest thing on the priority list, infact you have to be willing to sacrifice results for a long time while u build such a player, and he has to be willing to accept that, as part of the process, otherwise it cant work.

It seems you and I and TTPS are all on a similar/same wavelength about this.

Yeah, you need to be willing to sacrifice short term results for a higher long term level in the future, not many people are capable of this, too much ego, and too much hard work and patience.

This vid is great, its about developing juniors but it relates to this thread also about the long term.

 
@Cawlin

Your ALTA story is great. I have never encountered such idiocy.

Based on our discussions over the last weeks, you are on the right path.
Read that book we discussed for more reinforcement. It's not easy to stay on the path.
Once you learn to hit big, you will need to learn how to hit soft.

Play the right strokes for a few months, without hesitation, and you won't be able to chopSlap the ball even if you want to.
Train for a year, and then go bash with the ALTA guys. But, if they are 4.0 choppers, be prepared to still lose!
 
@Cawlin

Your ALTA story is great. I have never encountered such idiocy.

Based on our discussions over the last weeks, you are on the right path.
Read that book we discussed for more reinforcement. It's not easy to stay on the path.
Once you learn to hit big, you will need to learn how to hit soft.

Play the right strokes for a few months, without hesitation, and you won't be able to chopSlap the ball even if you want to.
Train for a year, and then go bash with the ALTA guys. But, if they are 4.0 choppers, be prepared to still lose!
So this is the picture of the end table to my immediate left of my couch right this moment, as I am watching Indian Wells matches on the Tennis Channel before I go to bed.

3sLtVHC.jpg


*edit* sorry, I can't figure out how to make that image reasonably sized with this message board code... my apologies. The pic is the book we spoke about.
 
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Ah man, I misread the thread title. I thought it said Peter Frampton. That would have been an interesting conversation.
 
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