Pickle ballers self rate

MAF

New User
I'll make this short, since everyone here knows the debacle of NTRP self rating> This is in a USTA mixed flex league.
Played a guy with 10 years of competitive pickle ball. Has not dropped a set in USTA league play, best record in league play, etc etc.
He self rated 3.0 and is light years better than this guy in the USTA(video).
At what point will a bump be coming?
 
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g4driver

Hall of Fame
This is the tennis section. Leave.
I think he is writing about a) about a 3.0S tennis player who played Pickleball for 10 years who he wants bumped up to 3.5 or b) himself who he thinks should be bumped to 3.5 :unsure:

Perhaps he was posting late at night after too much alcohol or English is a secondary language, but yeah the OP's post would get a D minus on readability of his first post. ;)

When is a bump coming ?: Two options: the 3.0S could be DQed and bumped, or possibly bumped the next time the USTA adjusts Year End Ratings. Maybe in Dec 2021, or if the USTA passes again, Dec 2022. Not dropping a set doesn't ensure a bump up. all about actual results vs expected results. @schmke could give you more information on the player in question.
 
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ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
I'll make this short, since everyone here knows the debacle of NTRP self rating>
10 years of competitive pickle ball. Has not dropped a set in USTA league play, best record in league play, etc etc.
Self rate 3.0 and is light years better than this guy(video)
At what point will a bump be coming?
I think he is writing about a) about a 3.0S tennis player who played Pickleball for 10 years who he wants bumped up to 3.5 or b) himself who he thinks should be bumped to 3.5
Ahhh, maybe. So the question is does 10 years of volley practice automatically give you all the strokes and play above a 3.0 level tennis player.

Some missing pieces here are, what rating and level of play is the person at pickleball? If you think about the reverse of the situation, there are 10 year tennis players that are still playing 3.5 level "competitively", which would mean their athleticism and skill probably wouldn't automatically allow them to compete at the same supposed skill level as the equivalent pickleballer. Now, if a 10 year tennis player was a 4.5 or had reached a pretty proficient level of strokes, control, and fitness to compete, I would think they would be much more able to also compete at a higher pickleball level. Though I don't know if there is a direct correlation there. It is a very different game.

So the easy answer is, if said pickleballer SR's as a 3.0 and really is THAT much better than that level, he will quickly be bumped or even DQ'd if it is that egregious. And overall, since ratings were left as hold-overs for last year, this years normal EOY rating should correct a lot of things anyway. At least it should.
 

MAF

New User
My apologies for the barely coherent post. Yes, I am wondering about Pickle ball player self rating for league tennis. Consistently winning with bagels and bread sticks.
He lowballed his self rate by at least .5.
Thank you for the snark and the helpful answers.
 

Mongolmike

Hall of Fame
Can a pickleballer who converts to tennis be trusted?

Can they be forgiven?

Would you feel comfortable sharing a shower with them (asking for a friend...)?

Or might they be a spy from the dark side infiltrating the tennis ranks to sow discontent and seeds of an uprising?

 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
A pickle ball player won't know how to serve overhead, hit FH or BH groundstrokes. They may not be able to move very fast. But being a high level PB player means they may have excellent hand eye coordination that will allow them to acquire these skills very quickly. But yes they should self rate at 3.0 and then move up as they progress.

I played a lot of racquetball and squash before I took up tennis and I definitely started out as a 3.0 because the topspin groundstrokes and tennis serve were very foreign concepts to me.
 

g4driver

Hall of Fame
My apologies for the barely coherent post. Yes, I am wondering about Pickle ball player self rating for league tennis. Consistently winning with bagels and bread sticks.
He lowballed his self rate by at least .5.
Thank you for the snark and the helpful answers.
my answer was an attempt to be both helpful and funny hence the ;) and :unsure: emojis. did I do both?

Pretty sure you were writing about another player who is a 3.0S who was winning easily at 3.0
 
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FuzzyYellowBalls

Professional
Might be some lost in translation here too, before I started playing around the country outside of Texas I didn't realize there were 2.5 players, everyone in Texas starts as a 3.0. If anyone played raquetball or pickleball at a decent level they should be a 3.5. 3.0 serves aren't "good" so I am sure someone who has had a racket of any kind in their hands for 10 years can figure out how to avoid double faulting.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Might be some lost in translation here too, before I started playing around the country outside of Texas I didn't realize there were 2.5 players, everyone in Texas starts as a 3.0. If anyone played raquetball or pickleball at a decent level they should be a 3.5. 3.0 serves aren't "good" so I am sure someone who has had a racket of any kind in their hands for 10 years can figure out how to avoid double faulting.
Well you could then argue that too many people are over-rating themselves and those that rate themselves properly shouldn't be punished. if you've never held a racket before, you are not a 3.0. I watch those people down at the public courts and they couldn't get a game off a 3.0.

3.0 is the start of intermediate tennis. It should comprise people who've progressed past the beginner stage by playing regularly for a year or beginning people that come to tennis with experience in racket sports.
 

FuzzyYellowBalls

Professional
Well you could then argue that too many people are over-rating themselves and those that rate themselves properly shouldn't be punished. if you've never held a racket before, you are not a 3.0. I watch those people down at the public courts and they couldn't get a game off a 3.0.

3.0 is the start of intermediate tennis. It should comprise people who've progressed past the beginner stage by playing regularly for a year or beginning people that come to tennis with experience in racket sports.
Well, I'll put it this way, beginners are thrown into 3.0, they might not win, but they are 3.0 and stay there usually because in some areas there are no 2.5 teams or matches.
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
I'll make this short, since everyone here knows the debacle of NTRP self rating>
10 years of competitive pickle ball. Has not dropped a set in USTA league play, best record in league play, etc etc.
Self rate 3.0 and is light years better than this guy(video)
At what point will a bump be coming?
What level were they in pickleball?

A bump won't happen until year-end when year-end ratings are published.

But the player could be DQd during the year and promoted too the next higher level should they accrue 3 strikes.

Not dropping a set doesn't necessarily mean match is a strike, or will even result in a bump at year-end. It depends on the score of the sets and also the rating of their opponent. If the sets aren't blowouts and/or the opponents aren't rated very high, there is a chance, albeit likely slim, they aren't bumped up at year-end.
 

MAF

New User
A pickle ball player won't know how to serve overhead, hit FH or BH groundstrokes. They may not be able to move very fast. But being a high level PB player means they may have excellent hand eye coordination that will allow them to acquire these skills very quickly. But yes they should self rate at 3.0 and then move up as they progress.

I played a lot of racquetball and squash before I took up tennis and I definitely started out as a 3.0 because the topspin groundstrokes and tennis serve were very foreign concepts to me.
This guy had no issue with any stroke, and anything higher than 5' he treated it like an overhead. Never missed one.
 

MAF

New User
my answer was an attempt to be both helpful and funny hence the ;) and :unsure: emojis. did I do both?

Pretty sure you were writing about another player who is a 3.0S who was winning easily at 3.0
No worries. I got yours. The "Leave , this is the tennis section" actually made me laugh. I missed a word in the title, and they didn't read the post...
 

MAF

New User
What level were they in pickleball?

A bump won't happen until year-end when year-end ratings are published.

But the player could be DQd during the year and promoted too the next higher level should they accrue 3 strikes.

Not dropping a set doesn't necessarily mean match is a strike, or will even result in a bump at year-end. It depends on the score of the sets and also the rating of their opponent. If the sets aren't blowouts and/or the opponents aren't rated very high, there is a chance, albeit likely slim, they aren't bumped up at year-end.
Said he was not part of a league or anything in pickle ball. No rating.
If he plays Mixed league, or Men's league I will likely file a complaint.
4 matches, the average 2.5 games lost per match. The only match that was decent, was against a pair that appealed down to 3.5. They will not lose a match in the flex league, for sure.
 

MAF

New User
Well, I'll put it this way, beginners are thrown into 3.0, they might not win, but they are 3.0 and stay there usually because in some areas there are no 2.5 teams or matches.
In the Tennessee/Memphis and North Mississippi region a self rated 2.5 is likely able to play & win at 3.5. I've watched it for 3 years now. I asked what to be rated at after 2 clinics. 3.0 Hadn't touched a racquet in 30 years & am 50 pounds bigger.
One gent has about .700 winning% and is a 5.77utr. He is now a 3(was bumped up). He was 4.2utr when he was a 2.5.
 

MAF

New User
Might be some lost in translation here too, before I started playing around the country outside of Texas I didn't realize there were 2.5 players, everyone in Texas starts as a 3.0. If anyone played raquetball or pickleball at a decent level they should be a 3.5. 3.0 serves aren't "good" so I am sure someone who has had a racket of any kind in their hands for 10 years can figure out how to avoid double faulting.
And I love your Youtube Channel.
 

FuzzyYellowBalls

Professional
In the Tennessee/Memphis and North Mississippi region a self rated 2.5 is likely able to play & win at 3.5. I've watched it for 3 years now. I asked what to be rated at after 2 clinics. 3.0 Hadn't touched a racquet in 30 years & am 50 pounds bigger.
One gent has about .700 winning% and is a 5.77utr. He is now a 3(was bumped up). He was 4.2utr when he was a 2.5.
Oh lordy, UTR, I'm a 4.5 and during covid my UTR has fallen to a 4.6, I'm not wrapped up in the number per se, but the implications, I'm going to have to destroy some perhaps pre-teens to get it up to where it should be. That's interesting about the 2.5s you've seen.
And I love your Youtube Channel.
Oh, that's not me, I honestly used this name before even seeing that youtube channel, sorry for any confusion.
 

ttbrowne

Hall of Fame
5.0 Dill Pickler ...
4.5 Sour (Or Half-Sour) Pickler
4.0 Bread and Butter Pickler
3.5 Gherkins
3.0 Hungarian Pickler
2.5 Polish or German Pickler

Junior kids Kool-Aid Pickles.
Any questions?
 

g4driver

Hall of Fame
Said he was not part of a league or anything in pickle ball. No rating.
If he plays Mixed league, or Men's league I will likely file a complaint.
4 matches, the average 2.5 games lost per match. The only match that was decent, was against a pair that appealed down to 3.5. They will not lose a match in the flex league, for sure.
Don't file a complaint or grievance. The most likely outcome with a 99.9% chance of either a complaint or grievance is you get told they did nothing wrong and that is honest. I have never filed a grievance nor will I unless it for a player who physically assaults another player. Yep witnessed that once. Player hit opponent in anger with his frame after a match and then ran like a small animal. Without being physically restrained by three other players, the guy who was hit would have put the moron in the hospital.

The USTA self-rating system allows a lot of room for people to pick a rating. These players like you faced are a very small percentage of tennis and while they value winning more than playing at a competitive level will be bumped in time. Just accept this is rec tennis and these players and more importantly Captains will get players to self rate to low in their quest for fool's gold, a trip to Nationals. :rolleyes:

IMO what is worse is a USTA System that allows these players to appeal down two or three years in a row as their algorithm sucks and then the USTA doesn't bump any one up.


Dont lose sight this is rec tennis. When i face someone who is clearly better than their rating for whatever the reason, I focus on controlling what I can, playing smart tennis as a counter puncher and getting in the head of someone who is more talented than me. You will surprise yourself when you focus on winning rather than you shouldn't be playing player 3.0S, that you are going to win some matches your opponent thought they had in the bag.

Beating an out of level player that I had no business winning is one of the best feelings in tennis to me personally. It means while physically not as talented as my opponent, I found a way to win and gain the respect of not only my opponents but his teammates as well. When the other team tells you well done it feels great.
 
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Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
This guy had no issue with any stroke, and anything higher than 5' he treated it like an overhead. Never missed one.
Then he's very athletic. I've met people that have played tennis for decades and can't hit a topspin groundstroke. For a pickleballer to pick it up just like that means he's just very coordinated and athletic. Not all PBer's will have that skill. The self rate system doesn't ask, "Are you super coordinated". Such a person will always start at an advantage over a mediocre athlete in beginner tennis. The system will sort them out eventually.
 

MAF

New User
IMO what is worse is a USTA System that allows these players to appeal down two or three years in a row as their algorithm sucks and then the USTA doesn't bump any one up.

Beating an out of level player that I had no business winning is one of the best feelings in tennis to me personally. It means while physically not as talented as my opponent, I found a way to win and gain the respect of not only my opponents but his teammates as well. When the other team tells you well done it feels great.
I fully agree with you on these two points. If I lose to an 8.0 mixed couple in a 7.0 league, no big deal. If I win more games against them than anyone else, good for us!

And yes, the NTRP algorithm is complete garbage. As is their self rate guide that no one in my state pays attention to. I prefer the UTR guide.
 

Creighton

Rookie
Don't file a complaint or grievance. The most likely outcome with a 99.9% chance of either a complaint or grievance is you get told they did nothing wrong and that is honest. I have never filed a grievance nor will I unless it for a player who physically assaults another player. Yep witnessed that once. Player hit opponent in anger with his frame after a match and then ran like a small animal. Without being physically restrained by three other players, the guy who was hit would have put the moron in the hospital.

The USTA self-rating system allows a lot of room for people to pick a rating. These players like you faced are a very small percentage of tennis and while they value winning more than playing at a competitive level will be bumped in time. Just accept this is rec tennis and these players and more importantly Captains will get players to self rate to low in their quest for fool's gold, a trip to Nationals. :rolleyes:

IMO what is worse is a USTA System that allows these players to appeal down two or three years in a row as their algorithm sucks and then the USTA doesn't bump any one up.


Dont lose sight this is rec tennis. When i face someone who is clearly better than their rating for whatever the reason, I focus on controlling what I can, playing smart tennis as a counter puncher and getting in the head of someone who is more talented than me. You will surprise yourself when you focus on winning rather than you shouldn't be playing player 3.0S, that you are going to win some matches your opponent thought they had in the bag.

Beating an out of level player that I had no business winning is one of the best feelings in tennis to me personally. It means while physically not as talented as my opponent, I found a way to win and gain the respect of not only my opponents but his teammates as well. When the other team tells you well done it feels great.
Like clockwork. Congrats on another spring local league title!
 

g4driver

Hall of Fame
Was that PR and MM in that playoff match a few years ago?
yep. MM would have killed that idiot. MP and two other guys pinned MM to the fence so that guy could run away. The guy who hit MM was a school teacher and got a one-year ban from the USTA leagues, tournaments, and a one-year ban from LCTA.
 

MisterP

Hall of Fame
yep. MM would have killed that idiot. MP and two other guys pinned MM to the fence so that guy could run away. The guy who hit MM was a school teacher and got a one-year ban from the USTA leagues, tournaments, and a one-year ban from LCTA.
Lost his teaching license a few years later for an “inappropriate relationship” with a student. Classy guy.
 

g4driver

Hall of Fame
Like clockwork. Congrats on another spring local league title!
Like clockwork? Are you making assumptions that my teams won due to underrated players or players who misrepresented themselves when they self-rated? :unsure: I honestly don't know what you meant by your post. Maybe you agreed with me. Maybe you think I condone exploiting the USTA's unlocked front door. I certainly don't agree the latter should be done. Long ago, these shananigans bothered me, then I just accepted that I am a rec player and a hack and if people need to win to validate their emotional stability, I am not going to battle this fight. I feel sorry for players and captains to have such little respect for themselves and others that they need a tennis win/champsionship to make their lives more acceptable.

You can look on the USTA Mobile app to verify my post about the 4.0A and 4.0S players' numbers on each team. LCTA 55+ and LCTA 18+

[/URL]

[/URL]

Here are some facts

My 55+ team just came in second place to a team with five 4.0A (appeal down) players. Both teams have 11-1 records. We beat them in the first match of the season because they had multiple players show for a 9 match at 930 am. Our captain didn't default them. They had 4 players there before the 915 default time period. Our team all agree to allow them to play all three lines in the match late instead of defaulting them. It was the first match of the season and the standard times of 930 am Sat were moved to 9 am. Isn't that the spirit of how rec tennis should be played? Our team won that match 2-1 in three 10 Point TB. They have 5 players who appealed down from 4.5. We have one player who appealed down from 4.5. All of these players are 60+ They are simply much stronger than our team. Our team won seven of 12 matches with 2 wins to 1 or 2-0 (the last match was a double default end of season match that was rained out on Sat wihh my team up , but the other team couldn't play this week. Unable to be made up by this Sat, with the fact the last court help or hurt any team, the 4 players including myself agreed to a double default which allowed the Local League Coordinator close out our 55+ season and declare the other team the winners and advance them to the state playoffs. There is no wildcard for our 55+ 11-1 team and we were a team of players that weren't recruited by the super team that beat us. The first-place team included my fall 55+ Captain who abandoned his teammates to join the recruited team of five 4.0A down players.

On our 18+ team:

We won the local league title without the use of a 4.0S teaching pro who played collegiate tennis and is currently playing 4.5 leagues in addition to 4.0. The team who just got the Wildcard to 18+ states added the 4.0S teaching pro and one other player trying to get to second place and earn a wildcard. The team with wildcard has five (5) 4.0S and three (3) appeal-down players.

We have one 4.0S on our 18+ team who is 6'4", 26 years old. As an old guy, I beat him and his 4.0C partner (who was a 4.5 lady two years ago) 8-1 with my older 4.0C partner who has never been a 4.5. So the 4.0S on our team is clearly rated at the correct level. His best singles win was 2&3 and 4&1 and he has gone to a 10 point TB with another 4.0C and has a loss at doubles. He isn't blowing anyone off the courts and loses to 55+ year 4.0 men in our team practices. FWIW, the 4.0S had a 4.0C partner who was a 4.5 lady two years ago. @MisterP is on the team and was hit with our group of 8.0 Mixed team and can verify the status of our one 4.0S player. We do have two 4.0A players on the team. We beat the team who got the WC during the regular season, so the other Captain went out and added two players to his team to give him what he couldn't do without them and that is win.
 
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g4driver

Hall of Fame
@Creighton

Read my Post #33 and #45... I am all about changing the USTA's pathetic system. In the meantime, I am not filing grievances against player's or captains who want that fool's gold, National Championship trip. Just don't throw shade at people you don't know and don't understand. Fair enough? I've been playing tennis 40+ years and you started what in 2015? These shenanigans will continue as long as the USTA wants league fees. But point fingers at the Captains and players who participate in such shanigands. If you are pointing a finger at my teams, you aren't hitting the dartboard.

 

Creighton

Rookie
Like clockwork? Are you making assumptions that my teams won due to underrated players or players who misrepresented themselves when they self-rated? Please clarify your remark, because your comment comes across as snarky. If that is what you meant, you are barking up the wrong tree.

You can look on the USTA Mobile app to verify my post about the 4.0A and 4.0S players' numbers on each team. LCTA 55+ and LCTA 18+

[/URL]

[/URL]

Never let facts get in the way of a false narrative right?

Here are some facts

My 55+ team just came in second place to a team with five 4.0A (appeal down) players. Both teams have 11-1 records. We beat them in the first match of the season because they had multiple players show for a 9 match at 930 am. Our captain didn't default them. They had 4 players there before the 915 default time period. Our team all agree to allow them to play all three lines in the match late instead of defaulting them. It was the first match of the season and the standard times of 930 am Sat were moved to 9 am. Isn't that the spirit of how rec tennis should be played? Our team won that match 2-1 in three 10 Point TB. They have 5 players who appealed down from 4.5. We have one player who appealed down from 4.5. All of these players are 60+ They are simply much stronger than our team. Our team won seven of 12 matches with 2 wins to 1 or 2-0 (the last match was a double default end of season match that was rained out on Sat wihh my team up , but the other team couldn't play this week. Unable to be made up by this Sat, with the fact the last court help or hurt any team, the 4 players including myself agreed to a double default which allowed the Local League Coordinator close out our 55+ season and declare the other team the winners and advance them to the state playoffs. There is no wildcard for our 55+ 11-1 team and we were a team of players that weren't recruited by the super team that beat us. The first-place team included my fall 55+ Captain who abandoned his teammates to join the recruited team of five 4.0A down players.

On our 18+ team:

We won the local league title without the use of a 4.0S teaching pro who played collegiate tennis and is currently playing 4.5 leagues in addition to 4.0. The team who just got the Wildcard to 18+ states added the 4.0S teaching pro and one other player trying to get to second place and earn a wildcard. The team with wildcard has five (5) 4.0S and three (3) appeal-down players.

We have one 4.0S on our 18+ team who is 6'4", 26 years old. As an old guy, I beat him and his 4.0C partner (whose was a 4.5 lady two years ago) 8-1 with my older 4.0C partner who has never been a 4.5. So the 4.0S on our team is clearly rated at the correct level. His best singles win was 2&3 and 4&1 and he has gone to a 10 point TB with another 4.0C , and has a loss at doubles. He isn't blowing anyone off the courts and loses to 55+ year 4.0 men in our team practices. FWIW, the 4.0S had a 4.0C partner who was a 4.5 lady two years ago. @MisterP is on the team and was hit with our group of 8.0 Mixed team and can verify the status of our one 4.0S player. We do have two 4.0A players on the team. We beat the team who got the WC during the regular season, so the other Captain went out and added two players to his team to give him what he couldn't do without them and that is win.

People on those forums can make assumptions and throw shade at people, but it's really not appreciated especially when they make assumptions and they don't have a clue what they are writing about.
My bad, that wasn't my intention at all. I was just looking for a post to congratulate you on winning another local league title. Guess it did come across snarky in this thread.

My apologies.
 

g4driver

Hall of Fame
Thanks much @Creighton I just edited my post as you were typing as I believed you were being nice and simply posted quickly and your intended message wasn't what got typed. No apology necessary at all. I think you and I see a lot alike. If your going to be in Aiken June 18-20, I might not be there. Work bekons. If we are both there, I will buy you a beer.
 

Creighton

Rookie
Thanks much @Creighton I just edited my post as you were typing as I believed you were being nice and simply posted quickly and your intended message wasn't what got typed. No apology necessary at all. I think you and I see a lot alike. If your going to be in Aiken June 18-20, I might not be there. Work bekons. If we are both there, I will buy you a beer.
Ah that's unfortunate. Yeah we qualified for Aiken with one of my teams, still working on the second one so not sure which level I'll be playing yet. But I'll be there.
 

g4driver

Hall of Fame
And we won't be able to beat Fanning now that he has recruited all those new players. Not sure which teams can beat a team with five (5) 4.0S and four (4) 4.0A players. Teaching pro/ collegiate player at 4.0S, that what I was writing about in how the USTA system needs to be fixed.

I got three wins this season vs 4.0A players so my luck will run out.
 

Creighton

Rookie
And we won't be able to beat Fanning now that he has recruited all those new players. Not sure which teams can beat a team with five (5) 4.0S and four (4) 4.0A players. Teaching pro/ collegiate player at 4.0S, that what I was writing about in how the USTA system needs to be fixed.

I got three wins this season vs 4.0A players so my luck will run out.
Yeah my 4.0 team has no shot against either of your teams. Our ringer 4.0A (his sister was on one of your mixed teams in the past) didn't end up signing up to play with this year so it really hurt us.

We would only be there to enjoy winning a hotly contested local league. Had to go 3-0 in our final 3 matches and won each one 3-2 in some real nailbiting fashion.
 
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