PickleBall and Tennis

TennisDawg said:
It’s comical that someone claims pickle serves are now at 60mph
Click to expand...
It is a game that awards you with just ONE serve. A conservative serving approach is prudent.
60 mph pickel serves? Too funny. :)
In a game where you get only one chance to get the serve in. :-D

Have observed literally thousands of 4.0/4.5 pickelers play in the neighboring courts while waiting for a tennis court to open up.
Their average serve speed is no greater than 30 mph - 40 mph. And even that is being generous.

But let's check out a high-level 5.0 match. Only 2.8% of the entire playing population are 5.0+. And this is a 5.0 Finals match.
These finalists are the best players at a 5.0 Tournament. And this particular 5.0 guy is serving 25 mph.
If some player out there is serving 60 mph, that is not particularly relevant to anything.

Let's please deal with what we see in the real world with 99.99% of the players.

ba8e99aec8204747908623fe1198917f.gif
 
Last edited:
Better_Call_Raul said:
If the tennis ball bounces twice in tennis, the point is dead; you can reach across the net or do whatever you want. Would have expected that rule to have been adapted.

It sounds like you are saying the pball bounced twice and yet you were still called for a violation after the point was dead. Very odd. Maybe it's too hard to determine when the point is over and hence the silly overly strict rule?

The game has been around forever, since at least the 1970s. Granted, it's popularity has boomed recently but the damn game has been played forever. It is hilarious that these picklers are still changing the fundamental rules of the game (2022 banning of pre-spun serves, etc).
Click to expand...
Actually, Pball has been around since 1965. I 1st became aware of it nearly 20 years ago when I started seeing whiffle balls and wooden pickleball bats left on HS tennis courts (from PE classes).

It’s pretty straightforward when the ball is dead in Pball. A 2nd bounce is one possibility. A ball hitting any player in another. If your opponent hits the net on their own side and fails to go over the net is another. Etc.

I looked into the momentum rule a bit further. The way it had been interpreted & explained to me appears to have been a bit off. Seems that many have misinterpreted the momentum rule.

A volleyer can be faulted for stepping in the NVZ or on the kitchen line, even after the ball is “dead”, if it was their volley momentum that caused that action. Merely stepping into the NVZ after a volley is not a fault — as long as it was not their volley momentum that carried them there.
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
Actually, Pball has been around since 1965. I 1st became aware of it nearly 20 years ago when I started seeing whiffle balls and wooden pickleball bats left on HS tennis courts (from PE classes).

It’s pretty straightforward when the ball is dead in Pball. A 2nd bounce is one possibility. A ball hitting any player in another. If your opponent hits the net on their own side and fails to go over the net is another. Etc.

I looked into the momentum rule a bit further. The way it had been interpreted & explained to me appears to have been a bit off. Seems that many have misinterpreted the momentum rule.

A volleyer can be faulted for stepping in the NVZ or on the kitchen line, even after the ball is “dead”, if it was their volley momentum that caused that action. Merely stepping into the NVZ after a volley is not a fault — as long as it was not their volley momentum that carried them there.
Click to expand...

The "swing with an upward arc" on the serve looks tricky to enforce. Have seen picklers squabble about this.
There is already a rule that serve contact must be below the waist. If there is a 6 foot 2 guy serving, and he contacts below waist level, is it even possible
to get it over the net without hitting up? Don't think so. As long as serve contact is below waist, I would forget about the upward arc rule, and allow the server to swing with a linear swing path or any other swing path; just as long as he makes contact below the waist.

Also note that the "make contact below the waist" can also be tricky to enforce. The motion happens quickly. Have seem picklers squabble about this too.
 
Bud said:
There are pros consistently serving in the upper 50's, average. Do some research before commenting.

You hit a fast serve to get a weak reply. Same with the return for the third shot drop or drive. The better your return the more difficult the third shot.

You claim to play occasionally. I'm guessing not very well, based on your comments and knowledge of the game.
Click to expand...
I know a harder serve may force a weak return but that’s not the same as serve+1. Like a big serve followed by a forehand winner. So a harder serve in pickle is more like negotiating a way to the kitchen where the game really is. You’re absolutely correct I don’t claim to be good at pickle. It’s just a social activity for me, just a few laughs, a little exercise, maybe coffee afterwards. I see the game differently then the diehards but I don’t disparage the game. There’s no point in doing that. I’m always invited to play and don’t care about the level of play.
 
I think the sad reality is the biggest threat to tennis is the ballooning cost of land. If you have a declining club in membership people might just choose to sell the club and cash out whereas with larger member base that's going to be less likely
 
sureshs said:
Are you talking about relative weight of ball vs paddle? Sizewise, the ratio is more like tennis, badminton or table tennis than baseball, cricket or golf.
Click to expand...
No. I’m talking about the lack of sweet spot. You hit a baseball 6” from the end of the bat, it feels like a marshmallow. You hit a golf ball on the middle of the club face, it feels like you hit a ball made of rubber. You hit a pickle ball and it feels like you accidentally hit your partner’s elbow.

Maybe a pickleball needs more rubber content.
 
ballmachineguy said:
No. I’m talking about the lack of sweet spot. You hit a baseball 6” from the end of the bat, it feels like a marshmallow. You hit a golf ball on the middle of the club face, it feels like you hit a ball made of rubber. You hit a pickle ball and it feels like you accidentally hit your partner’s elbow.

Maybe a pickleball needs more rubber content.
Click to expand...
A foam ball, like the oversized foam ball used for young kids learning tennis, could work. That ball, or something very similar has been used for quieter, Green Zone, Pickleball.
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
A foam ball, like the oversized foam ball used for young kids learning tennis, could work. That ball, or something very similar has been used for quieter, Green Zone, Pickleball.
Click to expand...
Oh yeah! The noise! The noise, noise, noise, noise! The more I think about this pickleball thing, the more I must stop this whole thing.
 
ballmachineguy said:
No. I’m talking about the lack of sweet spot. You hit a baseball 6” from the end of the bat, it feels like a marshmallow. You hit a golf ball on the middle of the club face, it feels like you hit a ball made of rubber. You hit a pickle ball and it feels like you accidentally hit your partner’s elbow.

Maybe a pickleball needs more rubber content.
Click to expand...
Oh OK that is a given in Pickleball - no feel at all or rather feels like cr*p. It is the main reason I don't like it.
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
Yeah, that momentum rule in P'ball is the dumbest thing I've heard in any sport. Someone called me on it -- for stepping into the kitchen after the point was over. C'mon gimme a break. Hard to take a sport seriously that has such a absurd rule.
Click to expand...

I think the rule is strange also but I have a guess why it was added. Without the rule we would lean forward … maybe on our toes just behind line … and hit overheads immediately followed by our lean taking us into the kitchen. I’m guessing given how the game was designed to not be tennis by moving volleys away from the net to behind kitchen line, they eliminated the lean/volley or overhead/feet immediately follow into kitchen.

Total guess … and seems either way impossible for rec play to actually police kitchen foot violations. We had a similar problem in rec tennis serve foot faults … but just seems like policing kitchen violations in rec play a much bigger issue. I have never once called an opponent out on any foot fault in pickleball (baseline or kitchen). Most of the time in open play if anyone comments it’s just notifying it’s happening. Other than newbies … we all just explain rules during the game as needed.

Edit:

Also make a distinction between hitting a volley standing behind kitchen line then stepping in vs being on full run hitting volley right before any foot touching kitchen vs leaping for overhead from behind kitchen line with feet landing right inside net. ???
 
Last edited:
sureshs said:
Oh OK that is a given in Pickleball - no feel at all or rather feels like cr*p. It is the main reason I don't like it.
Click to expand...

I miss strings and a tennis ball … always will. But question … have you hit carbon face paddle yet? Part of feel is control, grab, spin … and the carbon face paddles help to some degree.
 
sureshs said:
Isn't the Z5 also carbon?
Click to expand...

Z5 Graphite face … vs T700 carbon fiber cloth with outer resin layer applied with peel ply sheet. The resin maintains the texture of the carbon fiber cloth, therefore the added grab/control from paddle face.

Feel is subjective … our graphite faced Prince Response pros felt fine other than limited grab on the ball. That didn’t work for me coming from tennis, and the carbon faced paddles changed that significantly. More control, more spin. It’s never going to be the satisfying feel of hitting a tennis ball with a racquet and strings, but then what is? Ping pong … racquetball… NOT.

Edit:

My guess is they will improve feel when they replace the plastic cores with something else. The new Gearbox paddles is a move in that direction.
 
Last edited:
ByeByePoly said:
Z5 Graphite face … vs T700 carbon fiber cloth with outer resin layer applied with peel ply sheet. The resin maintains the texture of the carbon fiber cloth, therefore the added grab/control from paddle face.

Feel is subjective … our graphite faced Prince Response pros felt fine other than limited grab on the ball. That didn’t work for me coming from tennis, and the carbon faced paddles changed that significantly. More control, more spin. It’s never going to be the satisfying feel of hitting a tennis ball with a racquet and strings, but then what is? Ping pong … racquetball… NOT.

Edit:

My guess is they will improve feel when they replace the plastic cores with something else. The new Gearbox paddles is a move in that direction.
Click to expand...
LOL Table tennis is all about feel and dwell time.
 
sureshs said:
LOL Table tennis is all about feel and dwell time.
Click to expand...

Wasn’t when I last played … I was in college. 8-B Red rubber face with little raised nipples … was an improvement over the sandpaper paddles.

You feel a ping pong ball? … I always knew you was the sensitive type.
 
ByeByePoly said:
yep … this year they will be introducing replacement paddle surfaces like table tennis paddle skins.
Click to expand...
Why did it take this long? Seems like it would completely dampen the noise issue and also enhance spin. The way it is now ... those paddles are like the old sandpaper ones in table tennis. Pickleball is for chumps.
 
ByeByePoly said:
Wasn’t when I last played … I was in college. 8-B Red rubber face with little raised nipples … was an improvement over the sandpaper paddles.

You feel a ping pong ball? … I always knew you was the sensitive type.
Click to expand...
The little raised nipples (not yours) are called small pips. The longer nipples are called long pips. Back when you were in college, you probably played with cheap paddles with no sponge lying around the broken table in the common room.

All modern paddles for intermediates onwards have the rubber sheet as well as sponge and up to 7 plys, of which maximum 3 can be carbon and the remaining wood. It is all about the dwell time and feel. The feel that you get when you hit the ball is exquisite and actually much more nuanced than the tennis feel. The Chinese pros prefer special sticky rubbers which increases the dwell time while the Europeans use more conventional rubbers. My table tennis paddle with the rubbers and sponge cost $300.

But this is all "new" technology. Originally, table tennis was played in China with wooden paddles without sponge or rubber. Even today, there are "hard bat" tournaments. Those bats probably felt lousy and noisy. Sadly, that is where Pickleball paddles stand today - lousy feel and noisy.
 
sureshs said:
Good way to create some employment. Apart from a few pros, no one will need those but there will be psychological pressure to "upgrade."
Click to expand...

Pros don’t need it … get new paddles for free. Depending on quality and pricing … could be great for rec players that play a lot. Instead of replacing paddle that has lost it’s spin every x months, just replace surface with fresh new tires. Just like we do restringing a tennis racquet we play with for years. Don’t you table tennis studs buy new paddle rubbers. I priced them once … $$$ouch$$$.

The cost of the paddle comes into play. If you have a $300+ Selkirk a $50 new surface would be a no-brainer. But for my $90 Vatic Pro Prism … I can replace that every 6 months (even more often if I needed to).

The other thing that comes into play is how fast paddle technology is changing. That’s why I don’t value long warranty coverage … both the $300 Selkirk and my $90 Prism will be obsolete in a year. I will just replace my Prism with the new Prism with 25% more spin (oh please make that true).
 
ByeByePoly said:
Pros don’t need it … get new paddles for free. Depending on quality and pricing … could be great for rec players that play a lot. Instead of replacing paddle that has lost it’s spin every x months, just replace surface with fresh new tires. Just like we do restringing a tennis racquet we play with for years. Don’t you table tennis studs buy new paddle rubbers. I priced them once … $$$ouch$$$.

The cost of the paddle comes into play. If you have a $300+ Selkirk a $50 new surface would be a no-brainer. But for my $90 Vatic Pro Prism … I can replace that every 6 months (even more often if I needed to).

The other thing that comes into play is how fast paddle technology is changing. That’s why I don’t value long warranty coverage … both the $300 Selkirk and my $90 Prism will be obsolete in a year. I will just replace my Prism with the new Prism with 25% more spin (oh please make that true).
Click to expand...
There is something wrong with the sport if the paddle technology is changing so fast.
 
sureshs said:
There is something wrong with the sport if the paddle technology is changing so fast.
Click to expand...

Doesn’t the answer to that depend on who you ask? I feel the same today that I did when I started a year ago … good intermediate doubles is too kitchen centric. Baseline skills (serves, return of serves, topspin) are too diluted, kitchen skills (dinking in particular) weighted too high. I also would not want pickleball to turn into tennis, but doubles could be more balanced than just the kitchen imo. Just watch the best in the game … the Johns brothers … and make the case that the game doesn’t need to be tweaked.

IMO … pickleball improves with a little more spin, but no need for more power than what is already available.

btw … it’s one of the reasons I am talking about topspin lob … a total kitchen disrupter.
 
Last edited:
ballmachineguy said:
The ball needs some changing too.

https://imgur.com/a/PEiHlmD
Click to expand...

I definitely think the ball can and should be improved/replaced. But here is the test for me. The most fun in pickleball … way ahead of what comes in 2nd … is 4 players at the kitchen engaged in rapid firefights. Give me an improved ball that doesn’t degrade that and I’m in. Thinking about it … that annoying click might be part of the joy of the firefight :-D … winning the slots would not be the same without the sound.
 
Dunlop300g said:
Why did it take this long? Seems like it would completely dampen the noise issue and also enhance spin. The way it is now ... those paddles are like the old sandpaper ones in table tennis. Pickleball is for chumps.
Click to expand...

The explosive chump growth is just a couple of years old. The progress in paddles from 2022 to 2023 was incredible … we will see what changes happen in 2024.

This chump was ahead of his time … talking and actually replacing surfaces … pretty sure sandpaper era and noise came up :cool:

Thread 'Silence your paddle and other mods ... how did you do it?'
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/inde...ddle-and-other-mods-how-did-you-do-it.739036/
 
Pball was not intended to be a serious sport. The setup my friends parents had in the backyard in 1982 was wooden paddles and a whiffle ball. They are working on the paddles cuz that is where the money is. It doesn’t even seem like they looked in to developing their own ball. They just made a game out of existing materials. The ball could be a tad livelier and less clunky IMO.
 
ballmachineguy said:
Pball was not intended to be a serious sport. The setup my friends parents had in the backyard in 1982 was wooden paddles and a whiffle ball. They are working on the paddles cuz that is where the money is. It doesn’t even seem like they looked in to developing their own ball. They just made a game out of existing materials. The ball could be a tad livelier and less clunky IMO.
Click to expand...

What paddles and balls can be is governed by these guys … there is an approval process.

en.wikipedia.org

USA Pickleball - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
ballmachineguy said:
Pball was not intended to be a serious sport. The setup my friends parents had in the backyard in 1982 was wooden paddles and a whiffle ball. They are working on the paddles cuz that is where the money is. It doesn’t even seem like they looked in to developing their own ball. They just made a game out of existing materials. The ball could be a tad livelier and less clunky IMO.
Click to expand...
Frowning is frowned upon when engaging in pickleball.
 
Watching PB on tennis channel, both women players were ex NCAA tennis stand out. Funny how commentary doesn’t call them out for their tennis background. Jack Sock comes on…tennis transition this, tennis transition that.

PB is a scam. Maybe Agassi is right…PB is where tennis players go to die, like entertainers and Vegas for their last hurrah.
 
badmice2 said:
Watching PB on tennis channel, both women players were ex NCAA tennis stand out. Funny how commentary doesn’t call them out for their tennis background. Jack Sock comes on…tennis transition this, tennis transition that.

PB is a scam. Maybe Agassi is right…PB is where tennis players go to die, like entertainers and Vegas for their last hurrah.
Click to expand...
I don't get why I'd want to watch Agassi or any other pro play pickleball. He and the other retired tennis pros have an incredible amount of skill in tennis. Watching him play pickleball is like watching a retired professional race car driver in a golf cart race.

Maybe I'm one of the few that actually enjoys watching former tennis players playing against each other in tennis. I don't want to see them playing pickleball
 
The only new stroke tennis players need to excel in Pickleball is the third shot dink. This "drop shot" from the baseline when both opponents are on their way to the net is not feasible in tennis because there is no no-volley zone and also because there is much more room to put it away.

Advice to tennis players: Start with a third shot drive but eventually do add the third shot dink. It needs some practice to get it right.

@ByeByePoly
 
sureshs said:
The only new stroke tennis players need to excel in Pickleball is the third shot dink. This "drop shot" from the baseline when both opponents are on their way to the net is not feasible in tennis because there is no no-volley zone and also because there is much more room to put it away.

Advice to tennis players: Start with a third shot drive but eventually do add the third shot dink. It needs some practice to get it right.

@ByeByePoly
Click to expand...

Only one new shot from tennis? Very fortunate. How good do you have to be at the one new shot so you don’t need two new shots?
 
ByeByePoly said:
Only one new shot from tennis? Very fortunate. How good do you have to be at the one new shot so you don’t need two new shots?
Click to expand...
I have been managing with the third shot drive so far but need to develop the third shot dink. Coming from tennis, the shot seems so absurd that I just don't feel like hitting it. Also, I think it will be highly sensitive to the paddle's power level for accurate execution? Is that the case?
 
sureshs said:
I have been managing with the third shot drive so far but need to develop the third shot dink. Coming from tennis, the shot seems so absurd that I just don't feel like hitting it. Also, I think it will be highly sensitive to the paddle's power level for accurate execution? Is that the case?
Click to expand...

I know you are messing with me … did @Azure recruit you? She does not need any help.

But yes … the third shot drop is just one of many on the absurd list coming from tennis. A good pickleball t-shirt would be “EMBRACE THE ABSURD“
 
ByeByePoly said:
I know you are messing with me … did @Azure recruit you? She does not need any help.

But yes … the third shot drop is just one of many on the absurd list coming from tennis. A good pickleball t-shirt would be “EMBRACE THE ABSURD“
Click to expand...
I asked you if the third shot dink needs you to be grooved into a particular paddle. What is your answer?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

M
Recommend the best gear to me (Budget is no issue)
Replies
31
Views
2K
vex
vex
atatu
Sad to see former tennis player posting pics with pickleball trophies
2
Replies
73
Views
3K
Chris Wilson
C
J
Rant - Smashed a pickleball paddle today
Replies
11
Views
447
jimmy8
J
M
Is pickleball better for herniated disc than tennis?
2
Replies
65
Views
4K
EggSalad
EggSalad
konstantinos kalfountzos
Project Pickleball
Replies
42
Views
1K
konstantinos kalfountzos
konstantinos kalfountzos
Back
Top