Pinpoint vs Platform serve stance

[Deleted member 54265]

Hi Guys

I am experimenting with both pinpoint and platform stance at this moment, I am leaning towards going from PP to PF

Just saw this video from the TTT guys, what is your take on the pro and cons between Pinpoint and Platform stance ?

Pinpoint:
- Better momentum, better rytmn ?
- More power ?
- Better for serv and volley player ?

Platform:
- Better balance ?
- Fewer moving part to coordinate (simpler serve - easier serve) ?
- Perhaps more consistant toss ?

I am not so sure about the higher players using Pin Point stance, as players like Schwartzmann, Goffin, Pouille are using PP and so is most WTA players

What do you think works the best for club players (not pro players)

 

[weelie]

1stly I would say: Either way works, who cares, go with what you know.

But I think platform facilitates better use the trunk rotation and hitting spin serves. In pinpoint, you easily step-through the shot, opening the chest too early, resulting in flatter serves and more foot faults.

Less moving parts... I would rather teach the platform to a beginner.

(I serve PP, as I never felt comfortable with the strangle hold of the platform.)

 

[PMChambers]

Platform is better for S&V. Sampras Federer, Mac, Edberg, Stich, Becker, Goran, etc.
The benefit is in the torso twist, disquise.

 

[Dragy]

But I think platform facilitates better use the trunk rotation and hitting spin serves. In pinpoint, you easily step-through the shot, opening the chest too early, resulting in flatter serves and more foot faults.

Most footfaulting I’ve witnessed comes from stepping forward with front foot. The most vicious cases have been with guys starting with their front foot fully covering the line.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Hi Guys

I am experimenting with both pinpoint and platform stance at this moment, I am leaning towards going from PP to PF

Just saw this video from the TTT guys, what is your take on the pro and cons between Pinpoint and Platform stance ?

Pinpoint:
- Better momentum, better rytmn ?
- More power ?
- Better for serv and volley player ?

Platform:
- Better balance ?
- Fewer moving part to coordinate (simpler serve - easier serve) ?
- Perhaps more consistant toss ?

I am not so sure about the higher players using Pin Point stance, as players like Schwartzmann, Goffin, Pouille are using PP and so is most WTA players

What do you think works the best for club players (not pro players)

Great video from TTT... I had thought platform better allows you to move forward into the court for Serve & Volley, whereas pinpoint was more of a vertical jump than forward into the court. But video says pinpoint allows you to move further into the court than platform.

 

[Raul_SJ]

duplicate

 

[Deleted member 766172]

I vote platform

 

[Deleted member 766172]

Most footfaulting I’ve witnessed comes from stepping forward with front foot. The most vicious cases have been with guys starting with their front foot fully covering the line.

It always confused me that people step forward with that front foot. Seems completely unnatural.

 

[heninfan99]

just remember that there's a case against leg drive

 

[Dragy]

just remember that there's a case against leg drive

Is there a case against getting airborne or against getting any help from legs?

 

[blablavla]

Most footfaulting I’ve witnessed comes from stepping forward with front foot. The most vicious cases have been with guys starting with their front foot fully covering the line.

exactly

 

[blablavla]

Hi Guys

I am experimenting with both pinpoint and platform stance at this moment, I am leaning towards going from PP to PF

Just saw this video from the TTT guys, what is your take on the pro and cons between Pinpoint and Platform stance ?

Pinpoint:
- Better momentum, better rytmn ?
- More power ?
- Better for serv and volley player ?

Platform:
- Better balance ?
- Fewer moving part to coordinate (simpler serve - easier serve) ?
- Perhaps more consistant toss ?

I am not so sure about the higher players using Pin Point stance, as players like Schwartzmann, Goffin, Pouille are using PP and so is most WTA players

What do you think works the best for club players (not pro players)

I would say whatever helps you to increase the percentage of accurate 1st + second service.
Which is not equal to less DF.
Accurate first + second service is a service that lands where you would like to see it, not just somehow in the service box. Now this where is both: the spot (wide, body, down the T) + flat / kick / slice

As at recreational level you don't need to hit pinpoint first serve 70+% at the speed of 120+ mph, and you probably don't need same disguise level like top ATP pros need, my thinking process brings me to the initial point: whatever helps a rec player to consistently serve as intended is OK. Be it pinpoint stance be it platform stance.

 

[am1899]

Platform is better for S&V. Sampras Federer, Mac, Edberg, Stich, Becker, Goran, etc.
The benefit is in the torso twist, disquise.

Just sayin...Edberg, Goran, and Stich dragged the back foot forward.

 

[MajesticMoose]

Probably a little less power using platform but you get more easy shoulder turn and trunk rotation compared to pinpoint. I used to use pinpoint for a long time but I like having my feet balanced now and stationary. Less things to think about but can still pop it 95-105mph with a platform when I want to. Plus better kick on 2nd serves and more disguise.

 

[Kevo]

This is strictly a question of personal preference or whatever works best for you, IMO. You can serve perfectly well with either one and what works better for you may be worse for someone else. So try them both and see what feels better or works better for you. I've used both at different times, but I like platform best so that's what I use. I can serve well with either one though, so if someone walked up to me before a match and said I'll give you $100 to serve pinpoint this match, I'd happily say yes, take the money, and not worry about serves at all. It's a non-issue to my mind.

 

[Deleted member 766172]

Probably a little less power using platform but you get more easy shoulder turn and trunk rotation compared to pinpoint. I used to use pinpoint for a long time but I like having my feet balanced now and stationary. Less things to think about but can still pop it 95-105mph with a platform when I want to. Plus better kick on 2nd serves and more disguise.

I thought platform was the one with more power.

 

[MajesticMoose]

I thought platform was the one with more power.

Few and far between. Look at Taylor Fritz. He uses platform and can hit 140mph serves. Same with Raonic. Those guys are exceptions.

Easier power comes from pinpoint since there is a more pendulum motion happening. Just simple physics at work.

 

[FiReFTW]

Pinpoint is girly, most girls use it.

Real men use platform.

 

[5263]

Hi Guys

I am experimenting with both pinpoint and platform stance at this moment, I am leaning towards going from PP to PF

Just saw this video from the TTT guys, what is your take on the pro and cons between Pinpoint and Platform stance ?

Pinpoint:
- Better momentum, better rytmn ?
- More power ?
- Better for serv and volley player ?

Platform:
- Better balance ?
- Fewer moving part to coordinate (simpler serve - easier serve) ?
- Perhaps more consistant toss ?

I am not so sure about the higher players using Pin Point stance, as players like Schwartzmann, Goffin, Pouille are using PP and so is most WTA players

What do you think works the best for club players (not pro players)

I think you did a good job with their respective strengths....bravo!

 

[5263]

just remember that there's a case against leg drive

can you remind me of the case against leg drive??

 

[JohnYandell]

There is no case against leg drive. All the studies show it's critical. This bs about I can hit 90mph from my knees! Yeah and how many go in and can you generate significant spin? And oh yeah how is your shoulder after you serve from your knees for a while desperately trying to hit 90mph? Amount of leg drive can vary. You get the most use of the back leg in the platform but pinpoint can work well if you don't bring the back leg around the front. Still in my experience a platform from a stance that isn't super wide is the deal.

 

[bitcoinoperated]

Pinpoint is girly, most girls use it.

Real men use platform.

The ATP forehand of tennis serves

Seriously it seems easier to squat your serve like many on the WTA with pinpoint. Kinda jelly of Kyrgios' flowing pinpoint serve though.

 

[Kevo]

There is no case against leg drive. All the studies show it's critical. This bs about I can hit 90mph from my knees! Yeah and how many go in and can you generate significant spin?

I'm sure there are people that can get 90mph from their knees. I don't think I ever got that high, probably about 85mph is about as high as I got. So I wouldn't say it's bs. As far as how many go in and can you get spin, those things are much easier from your feet more because of height and range of motion. When serving from your knees hitting the ground with your racquet is a problem you have to deal with. It really limits your range of motion. In a way that's good because it really forces you to work above your head more than you are used to.

But I call bs on leg drive is critical unless your playing at really high level. What is it really critical for? To go from 85mph serves to 95mph serves? For a rec player it's not critical at all. If a particular player can keep their technique together while using their legs it's certainly helpful, but I've seen lots of players who can't and I'm sure I could get them serving better if they'd agree to forget about their legs. Unfortunately I haven't had one adult player yet take me up on it. They all think it's critical. :-(

 

[JohnYandell]

Well you can serve pretty well standing with minimal leg drive. It's only critical if you want to maximize your abilities. Why? The leg drive adds to the external shoulder rotation in the racket drop. That's not bs--it's been measured by people like Bruce Elliot and Brian Gordon. So it's an important component in racket speed. Second the drive from the back leg accelerates the back hip upward--another critical component in the biomechanical chain and racket speed. Again there are scientists that have proven this, including the two above and also Dr. Ben Kibler. Some leg drive also raises your contact point.
A simple platform stance with knee bend according to your abilities and leg strength will make a difference. I've taught it to dozens and dozens of players 3.0 and all the way up. It will help everyone who gets it technically right proportionate to their level. I usually see 5 to 10mph gain on the radar gun with increased spin and also consistency.

 

[Deleted member 766172]

Some leg drive also raises your contact point.

This right here is probably why I need it. Gotta get up there when you're not that tall.

 

[Deleted member 766172]

I think there was a baseball study once that said 80% of the velocity of a pitch comes from rotational movement and 20% linear movement. If that is the case, I would think platform would provide more velocity on your serve than pinpoint.

 

[JohnYandell]

FR,
I am wary of cross sport analogies. But I do think all things being equal chances are that is true about platform. We saw that quite clearly when Jeff Salzenstein and I worked together to change him from extreme pinpoint to Sampras style platform. The platform generally allows you to rotate your shoulders further away from the ball in the backswing. Generally increases leg drive. On top of that it's simpler.

 

[Deleted member 54265]

Well you can serve pretty well standing with minimal leg drive. It's only critical if you want to maximize your abilities.

Some thoughts:

I came into Tennis in a fairly late age after a career in another sport, so my struggle is timing and getting all the elements working correctly together.

Over this summer I have been working om my serve a lot, and together with a really good coach. I also do videos to analyse the stroke mechanics. All in all I have a pretty good service motion, and get about a foot off the ground at contact point.

I struggle with timing, so leg drive can add a few extra mph, but most often it doesn't as I get the timing wrong. When I take the leg drive out of the equation, I seem to be much more consistant, and I also think my average mph on serve might increase due to better timing.

I am sure that I can maximize my serve with leg drive, but I am thinking that it will be on the expense of consistency - If I was a young man, YES for sure, but as a man in his fifties I am not so sure. So now, even that I have a good leg lift off the ground (used to be a volleyball player, so I can still jump), I am taking the leg drive out of my serve as I can see a benefit of improved timing and consistency, and I am only loosing a little power if any.

John, I know it is a good thing to look at top athlete when molding our strokes, but what is your thoughts on the above for older rec players.

Cheers, Toby

PS, I enjoy your site very much, it is the best out there if you want to dig in deep in certain subjects.

 

[JohnYandell]

Toby,
There are degrees of leg drive. Also it has to be timed correctly. Hard for me to say for you without seeing some video though! Thanks for the great words about Tennisplayer!

 

[Wise one]

I don't understand the question. There is no real difference. I bet many players use a variety of stances depending on the situation.

 

[Shroud]

Just sayin...Edberg, Goran, and Stich dragged the back foot forward.

yep, they were definitely pinpoint and not platform at all.

 

[5263]

yep, they were definitely pinpoint and not platform at all.

yes and it's pretty silly to say that the platform would help everybody or that it would increase leg drive. When was the last time you saw anyone trying for their best vertical leap in a wider stance. Sounds to me that some are touting a narrow platform that is really closer to a wide pinpoint than the standard original platform. I could see how the hybrid could gain a bit of an advantage over the two extremes for some players, but it would be better to call it a hybrid or wider pinpoint instead of trying to claim it is a platform.

 

[Kevo]

Well you can serve pretty well standing with minimal leg drive. It's only critical if you want to maximize your abilities. Why? The leg drive adds to the external shoulder rotation in the racket drop. That's not bs--it's been measured by people like Bruce Elliot and Brian Gordon. So it's an important component in racket speed. Second the drive from the back leg accelerates the back hip upward--another critical component in the biomechanical chain and racket speed. Again there are scientists that have proven this, including the two above and also Dr. Ben Kibler. Some leg drive also raises your contact point.
A simple platform stance with knee bend according to your abilities and leg strength will make a difference. I've taught it to dozens and dozens of players 3.0 and all the way up. It will help everyone who gets it technically right proportionate to their level. I usually see 5 to 10mph gain on the radar gun with increased spin and also consistency.

Agree with all of the above. I've just seen enough Toby14s to have come to the conclusion that legs are at pretty much the bottom of the "critical" list on serves. If you want to be competitive at the 4.5 level and above, then you probably need a decent leg drive on your serve along with decent everything else. For 4.0 and below I'd be interested to know what percentage of players would be or would have been better off not ever hearing anything about leg drive or jumping when they were learning to serve.

 

[JohnYandell]

Shroud,
How is that pinpoint we worked on going?

 

[JohnYandell]

Kevo,
Well it's definitely not a jump!

 

[weelie]

Most footfaulting I’ve witnessed comes from stepping forward with front foot. The most vicious cases have been with guys starting with their front foot fully covering the line.

Yes, I agree. When you go to the courts, it seems like 70% of servers footfault (not every serve though). So it were easy to collect stats if one wanted to.

Yesterday, I played a quick 1h match with a friend. My last 1st serve in the match, I for fun hit platform style, which I always felt awkward. I made the serve, did not feel that bad. I think I will experiment with it, would it be better, would I lose speed etc. Just need to practice a bit and then go to a court with a a speed gun (zenniz). So maybe in a month or so.

 

[Olli Jokinen]

Platform is better for S&V. Sampras Federer, Mac, Edberg, Stich, Becker, Goran, etc.
The benefit is in the torso twist, disquise.

Edberg and Goran served pinpoint, Stich basically too. Most S/V were pinpointers.

 

[Cashman]

Edberg and Goran served pinpoint, Stich basically too. Most S/V were pinpointers.

Yeah, I S&V and I definitely find pinpoint a bit more comfortable in that respect, the flow of the pinpoint stance meshes well with my goal of getting my bodyweight moving forward into the court after serving

Not to say you can't get good forward bodyweight movement with a platform stance, or that there haven't been some very good S&V players who hit platform, but I certainly think pinpoint is a slightly more natural fit for that style of play

But overall I don't think it really matters, IMO platform vs pinpoint is one of the most overrated debates in tennis

 

[mental midget]

Just sayin...Edberg, Goran, and Stich dragged the back foot forward.

yeah...what do you call this exactly? i still feel like those guys were fundamentally a platform stance...when i think 'pure pinpoint', i think of monfils, roddick, simon, guys like that.

i drag my right foot forward as well, probably because i idolized goran years ago...but i feel like i take off from a 'platform' and i don't exactly explode up with both feet very close, more like i use that forward step to close the distance a bit to reach forward a little more.

anyway though to answer the question, i think platform is just more solid, better balance etc for your average player looking for a repeatable stroke.

 

[Olli Jokinen]

yeah...what do you call this exactly? i still feel like those guys were fundamentally a platform stance...when i think 'pure pinpoint', i think of monfils, roddick, simon, guys like that.

i drag my right foot forward as well, probably because i idolized goran years ago...but i feel like i take off from a 'platform' and i don't exactly explode up with both feet very close, more like i use that forward step to close the distance a bit to reach forward a little more.

anyway though to answer the question, i think platform is just more solid, better balance etc for your average player looking for a repeatable stroke.

That's basically how pinpoint works. You start from a platform and drag your back foot forwards. There are variations: Edberg, Goran, Stan, Steffi – different, but it's still pinpoint. It's how you place your feet before impact that defines the term, so if your feet dont move before the trophy position, it's platform (Becker, Sampras, Djoker).

 

[Cashman]

yeah...what do you call this exactly? i still feel like those guys were fundamentally a platform stance...when i think 'pure pinpoint', i think of monfils, roddick, simon, guys like that.

i drag my right foot forward as well, probably because i idolized goran years ago...but i feel like i take off from a 'platform' and i don't exactly explode up with both feet very close, more like i use that forward step to close the distance a bit to reach forward a little more.

It’s not about whether you drag your back foot, it’s about where your feet are when your legs are fully loaded

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

yea...what do you call this exactly? i still feel like those guys were fundamentally a platform stance...when i think 'pure pinpoint', i think of monfils, roddick, simon, guys like that.​

i drag my right foot forward as well, probably because i idolized goran years ago...but i feel like i take off from a 'platform' and i don't exactly explode up with both feet very close, more like i use that forward step to close the distance a bit to reach forward a little more.

anyway though to answer the question, i think platform is just more solid, better balance etc for your average player looking for a repeatable stroke.

Conventionally, PP servers start with a platform (as they start the toss) and bring the back foot up so that it is next to front foot for the trophy phase as subsequent racket drop & upward leg drive. This is what Edberg and most other PP servers do.

Roddick is really more of a narrow platform (or a very wide PP) as seen below. Monfils emulated Roddick's serve for quite a while but it has changed it over time. Most videos show him with a narrow stance than Roddick. In some cases, he starts with a narrow platform but then moves his front foot back so that is is closer to PP for his trophy phase & leg drive. ARod was doing the same thing for a short time in his career. This may have been where Gael M picked up this technique. For most of his pro career, ARod was not moving either prior to launch.

 

[mental midget]

It’s not about whether you drag your back foot, it’s about where your feet are when your legs are fully loaded

i...think i might be a pinpoint server.

 

[Dragy]

Flashnews: Sinner changed (back?) to step up/pinpoint