Pirate Ship Tennis

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Getting to the point where I feel like I should start writing stuff down so it doesn't die with me.

I'd like to use this thread as a parking lot for some of my thoughts and a sort of AMA.

I know a lot of this won't make sense initially. I plan to flesh it out and explain in more detain as we go along.

Section I: Groundstrokes

1) Teach the hand path, relax the hand incrementally in order to give the racquet more agency within the swing path as timing improves.

2) Teach organization of the feet. The stronger the incoming ball, the more the feet must be organized to receive. The weaker the incoming ball, the more the feet may be organized to facilitate the outgoing ball.

3) Teach movement patterns.
Left <==> Right
Forward <==> Backward
Left Diagonal <==> Right Diagonal
Right Diagonal <==> Left Diagonal

4) Explain recovery points, proactive and reactive based on outgoing shots. Avoid shots which cannot be recovered from.

5) As level and competence increase the lower body assumes more of the burden of the shot, this allows the hand to make small adjustments to control the shot and improve accuracy.

6) Dynamic stability is achieved by having a clear understanding of the path to the ball, the organization behind it, and the path to the recovery point. As level increases deceleration becomes more important than acceleration.

---

Section II: Volleys

1) Teach proper grip and shoulder turn for racquet face alignment perpendicular to flight path. Focus on shoulder turn and contact in the middle of the strings.

2) Starting at net, increase distance from the net until footwork becomes necessary.

3) Teach articulation of the racquet face to deal with incoming ball height and trajectory.

4) Teach footwork from deep within the transition area.

5) Bridge the gap between transition volleys which are mostly with the feet and net volleys which are mostly with the hands.

6) Teach routes and timing of the steps to deal with various situations.

Section III: Serves

1) Familiarize the grip and feeling different ratios of spin and power adjusted by turning the hand more or less into contact. Easiest done bouncing the ball on the ground.

2) Work through spatial orientation and hand path vs. stringbed direction.

3) Experiment with effects of different spin directions on flight path and toss locations required to facilitate the spin directions.

4) Organize the lower body to correlate with the grip and swing direction. Assure hip alignment corespondes to grip.

5) Add handspeed, recruit from lower body being sure to maintain balance before and through contact and landing.

6) Build routine, wind up and split step and recovery into the serve.


J
 
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What are the best drills for 5)? I'm desperate for that. When you get a moment...

I do it with hand feeds but you can use a wall or ball machine. The main thing is to have a zero stress environment.

First start with your normal shot and find a nice rhythm. Try to keep the same cadence but ask your arm to do 5% less. The stroke will become a bit wobbly as your body learns to take up the slack in your arm, once it smooths out and you are using your body more to pull your hands through the ball repeat the process again.

Some other things you can do to help the feel:

1) Shadow swing holding a water bottle instead of a racquet. Once you remove awareness of the racquet tip you can focus on the hand path, plus you get enhanced feeling of pulling on the bottle and it passing you and then the bottle pulling on you.

2) Prepare your racquet and then slowly, progressively relax your arm until the racquet begins to drop. This shows the minimum amount of muscle tension needed to keep the racquet in place. Most people use more effort to hold the racquet than an umbrella, no need for extra effort, just hold it in place.

3) Hold the racquet by the throat with your non dominant hand, keep your dominant hand open and just rest it on the grip. Go through the swing and grab the racquet with your dominant hand at the last instant before you swing.

J
 
Watched a video by an old coach meant for old players. He recommended Eastern grip on the forehand for simplicity.

But that is not what I found interesting. I use a SW and am fine with that.

It was what he said about the swing follow through. It always seemed to me that the across the body finish performed by juniors is not suitable for adults when they want to hit DTL. He confirmed that a more old-style straight up follow through to the forehead is easier for DTL shots and a more across finish for CC shots.

I never believed that the across finish for DTL is feasible for adult rec players and he confirmed it.
 
In another video, a coach pointed out that the ATP forehand with laid back wrist in the "slot" requires taking the ball early, having great timing and body coordination, and the ability to generate power with a shorter swing - none of which applies to rec players. He advised not using it if it is not working, or at least trying to incorporate it only a little at a time.
 
In another video, a coach pointed out that the ATP forehand with laid back wrist in the "slot" requires taking the ball early, having great timing and body coordination, and the ability to generate power with a shorter swing - none of which applies to rec players. He advised not using it if it is not working, or at least trying to incorporate it only a little at a time.
Doesn’t seem pirate enough. Overboard.
 
Watched a video by an old coach meant for old players. He recommended Eastern grip on the forehand for simplicity.

But that is not what I found interesting. I use a SW and am fine with that.

It was what he said about the swing follow through. It always seemed to me that the across the body finish performed by juniors is not suitable for adults when they want to hit DTL. He confirmed that a more old-style straight up follow through to the forehead is easier for DTL shots and a more across finish for CC shots.

I never believed that the across finish for DTL is feasible for adult rec players and he confirmed it.
In another video, a coach pointed out that the ATP forehand with laid back wrist in the "slot" requires taking the ball early, having great timing and body coordination, and the ability to generate power with a shorter swing - none of which applies to rec players. He advised not using it if it is not working, or at least trying to incorporate it only a little at a time.
probably depends on what level of commitment a “rec” player has….

I suspect the coaches you’re referencing, are taking about rec players that “practice” 1-2h a week, not very coordinated, max “goal” is to play with friends at the 3.0-3.5 level, etc,…. sinplifying makes sense.

but a rec player that is taking regualr lessons, practices 10h/w, shooting for ntrp4.0+, would benefit from “advanced” technique.

having asked this question many times (what’s your goal?), everyone responds “as high as possible”, but when j ask, what’s your commitment level (2h/w), it’s clear their goal is 3.0-3.5
 
probably depends on what level of commitment a “rec” player has….

I suspect the coaches you’re referencing, are taking about rec players that “practice” 1-2h a week, not very coordinated, max “goal” is to play with friends at the 3.0-3.5 level, etc,…. sinplifying makes sense.

but a rec player that is taking regualr lessons, practices 10h/w, shooting for ntrp4.0+, would benefit from “advanced” technique.

having asked this question many times (what’s your goal?), everyone responds “as high as possible”, but when j ask, what’s your commitment level (2h/w), it’s clear their goal is 3.0-3.5
Most 4.5 rec players also fall into the same category. The "downward" ones which are 4.5 but were junior or college players at one time are able to use the ATP forehand and across the body finish for all forehands. The "upward" ones who started tennis as an adult cannot, no matter how many lessons they take and how many hours they practice.
 
Most 4.5 rec players also fall into the same category. The "downward" ones which are 4.5 but were junior or college players at one time are able to use the ATP forehand and across the body finish for all forehands. The "upward" ones who started tennis as an adult cannot, no matter how many lessons they take and how many hours they practice.
the “upward” ones that i’ve taught, never want to do the “pre work”…

for example, worked on footwork with someone, but their feet were like stones…. no split, slow to move, etc,…

took a step back, and just asked them to do a few jump ropes… completely uncoordinated… gave them “homework” to jump rope 2m a day… and/or 100 continuous jumps on the balls of the feet…

fast forward 3w, i asked about the homework… they didn’t do any of it… I asked what their practice consisted of…
answer: “matches”….
I
was teaching someone else the serve.. but they can’t throw, prescribed hw of throwing a football daily…. similarly they did none of it.

their practice consisted of “pancake serving”

what’s that phrase about the definition of insanity…?

so I call BS that adults can’t learn “adv” technique…
 
the “upward” ones that i’ve taught, never want to do the “pre work”…

for example, worked on footwork with someone, but their feet were like stones…. no split, slow to move, etc,…

took a step back, and just asked them to do a few jump ropes… completely uncoordinated… gave them “homework” to jump rope 2m a day… and/or 100 continuous jumps on the balls of the feet…

fast forward 3w, i asked about the homework… they didn’t do any of it… I asked what their practice consisted of…
answer: “matches”….
I
was teaching someone else the serve.. but they can’t throw, prescribed hw of throwing a football daily…. similarly they did none of it.

their practice consisted of “pancake serving”

what’s that phrase about the definition of insanity…?

so I call BS that adults can’t learn “adv” technique…
Actually, what you said proves that adults can't learn advanced technique.

Not doing the homework is part and parcel of being an adult with a real life, job and family.
 
the “upward” ones that i’ve taught, never want to do the “pre work”…

for example, worked on footwork with someone, but their feet were like stones…. no split, slow to move, etc,…

took a step back, and just asked them to do a few jump ropes… completely uncoordinated… gave them “homework” to jump rope 2m a day… and/or 100 continuous jumps on the balls of the feet…

fast forward 3w, i asked about the homework… they didn’t do any of it… I asked what their practice consisted of…
answer: “matches”….
I
was teaching someone else the serve.. but they can’t throw, prescribed hw of throwing a football daily…. similarly they did none of it.

their practice consisted of “pancake serving”

what’s that phrase about the definition of insanity…?

so I call BS that adults can’t learn “adv” technique…
Please don't respond to them and hope J still has the appetite to finish typing up his thoughts
 
probably depends on what level of commitment a “rec” player has….

I suspect the coaches you’re referencing, are taking about rec players that “practice” 1-2h a week, not very coordinated, max “goal” is to play with friends at the 3.0-3.5 level, etc,…. sinplifying makes sense.

but a rec player that is taking regualr lessons, practices 10h/w, shooting for ntrp4.0+, would benefit from “advanced” technique.

having asked this question many times (what’s your goal?), everyone responds “as high as possible”, but when j ask, what’s your commitment level (2h/w), it’s clear their goal is 3.0-3.5

You want a 6 pack and big muscles, go to the gym and stop eating pizza and drinking beer.

No, that's not it, my metabolism is slowing down.

J
 
Actually, what you said proves that adults can't learn advanced technique.

Not doing the homework is part and parcel of being an adult with a real life, job and family.
Can't and aren't willing to are two very different things.

I fundamentally disagree with how local indoor clubs and academies are run, so I decided to run free professional training for my better students two hours per week.

Almost universally when I invite someone below 8-9 utr and they do the training, the response is "oh, now I understand." The people who are like "this is dumb because xyz," are not invited back. Usually they feel they are doing the optimal thing and there are many reasons that they are not better than they are, none of which include that they are not doing the things the people better than them do which clearly and obviously will not help them.

J
 
Watched a video by an old coach meant for old players. He recommended Eastern grip on the forehand for simplicity.

But that is not what I found interesting. I use a SW and am fine with that.

It was what he said about the swing follow through. It always seemed to me that the across the body finish performed by juniors is not suitable for adults when they want to hit DTL. He confirmed that a more old-style straight up follow through to the forehead is easier for DTL shots and a more across finish for CC shots.

I never believed that the across finish for DTL is feasible for adult rec players and he confirmed it.
across the body is fine, unless your belly is too big.
 
Can't and aren't willing to are two very different things.

I fundamentally disagree with how local indoor clubs and academies are run, so I decided to run free professional training for my better students two hours per week.

Almost universally when I invite someone below 8-9 utr and they do the training, the response is "oh, now I understand." The people who are like "this is dumb because xyz," are not invited back. Usually they feel they are doing the optimal thing and there are many reasons that they are not better than they are, none of which include that they are not doing the things the people better than them do which clearly and obviously will not help them.

J

improvements are certainly possible if the adults are willing to learn. some of my adult friends have seen 0.5-1 NTRP improvements after a few years... does take a lot of work.... have to explain in many ways so they understand why the modern techniques are what they are.

and tennis is much more enjoyable when you play correctly.
 
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improvements are certainly possible if the adults are willing to learn. some of my adult friends have seen 0.5-1 NTRP improvements after a few years... does take a lot of work.... have to explain in many ways so they understand why the modern techniques are what they are.

and tennis is much more enjoyable when you play correctly.
It prevents injuries too.

But modern tennis is not the same as correct tennis.

You can play with an Eastern forehand grip and finish over your forehead. You need not land inside the court with the left foot on the serve but do it as it was done when at least one foot was supposed to be on the ground at impact.

You need not use ATP forehand.

These were the points the two old coaches were making. They both seemed to be very experienced.

As an aside, and not related to old vs new methods, a very practical issue is that any form of proper technique in tennis takes time to learn and become effective. Doubles play is not conducive to this. In singles, players with awful technique (only punt shots and dinky pancake serves) can beat you till and including the 4.0 level. They will sneer at your technically correct shots as you either freeze or overhit under pressure. This is a huge factor for many players as it ruins them psychologically. This must be one of the reasons why Pickleball doubles is so popular. Most shots are punty and dinky so it doesn't matter. @ByeByePoly
 
I'm willing to try, but I'll need some help from you guys. I'm fine addressing people and crowds irl, and don't have a problem recording myself playing or teaching but I kind of glitch when I have to address a camera.

J
Can you record some good students fixing certain problems? Show the before and after, with the drill, record some narrations while going through the videos sitting in front of your computer. The end product would be like some YouTube coaches doing stroke or match analysis. It could take a little bit time to learn the video editing. Once it's on YouTube, you make some money and also attract more students.
 
Can you record some good students fixing certain problems? Show the before and after, with the drill, record some narrations while going through the videos sitting in front of your computer. The end product would be like some YouTube coaches doing stroke or match analysis. It could take a little bit time to learn the video editing. Once it's on YouTube, you make some money and also attract more students.
Maybe over the winter, during the outdoor season I regularly work 70+ hours including 50+ hours of lessons.

J
 
Getting to the point where I feel like I should start writing stuff down so it doesn't die with me.

I'd like to use this thread as a parking lot for some of my thoughts and a sort of AMA.

I know a lot of this won't make sense initially. I plan to flesh it out and explain in more detain as we go along.

Section I: Groundstrokes

1) Teach the hand path, relax the hand incrementally in order to give the racquet more agency within the swing path as timing improves.

2) Teach organization of the feet. The stronger the incoming ball, the more the feet must be organized to receive. The weaker the incoming ball, the more the feet may be organized to facilitate the outgoing ball.

3) Teach movement patterns.
Left <==> Right
Forward <==> Backward
Left Diagonal <==> Right Diagonal
Right Diagonal <==> Left Diagonal

4) Explain recovery points, proactive and reactive based on outgoing shots. Avoid shots which cannot be recovered from.

5) As level and competence increase the lower body assumes more of the burden of the shot, this allows the hand to make small adjustments to control the shot and improve accuracy.

6) Dynamic stability is achieved by having a clear understanding of the path to the ball, the organization behind it, and the path to the recovery point. As level increases deceleration becomes more important than acceleration.

J
For #6, can you explain how to keep the takeback closer to the body (inside of the ball) and the path to the ball and through to follow-through?
 
For #6, can you explain how to keep the takeback closer to the body (inside of the ball) and the path to the ball and through to follow-through?
#6 is about footwork and route to the ball/recovery.

If you are having trouble with the handpath I can write something up.

J
 
#6 is about footwork and route to the ball/recovery.

If you are having trouble with the handpath I can write something up.

J
I have much poorer awareness on forehand handpath for higher balls than lower balls. Other than hitting 5000 balls, is there any quick fix? I'm trying to adjust my hand position during take back to match the height of the expected contact point.
 
I have much poorer awareness on forehand handpath for higher balls than lower balls. Other than hitting 5000 balls, is there any quick fix? I'm trying to adjust my hand position during take back to match the height of the expected contact point.

The two most common mistakes for high forehands are preparing at the same height as you would a waist height ball, and hitting at the same contact distance as a waist high ball.

High forehands require higher preparation and contact further in front of the body, including opening the chest more.

J
 
ok, I thought he was going to tell us how to watch tennis matches online without needing to sign up for another streaming service (maybe use surfshark or something)...
 
Really? I thought outside draw works better for low ball and inside fade is for high FH
I get what you say. You make contact with the inside part of the ball to fade it, particularly to fade it I/O.

But with that racquet head comes from outside. Right to left for a righty. Particularly if you hit straight forward or CC.

That’s what I’m talking about. And hand path also. When you hit a low ball, you will usually come from between the ball and the hip with your hand. When you hit a high ball, you will drop your hand more right behind the ball and then swipe across. Racquet head will go higher than the hand and approach the ball from the outside.
 
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