Pirate Ship Tennis

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I get what you say. You make contact with the inside part of the ball to fade it, particularly to fade it I/O.

But with that racquet head comes from outside. Right to left for a righty. Particularly if you hit straight forward or CC.

That’s what I’m talking about. And hand path also. When you hit a low ball, you will usually come from between the ball and the hip with your hand. When you hit a high ball, you will drop your hand more right behind the ball and then swipe across. Racquet head will go higher than the hand and approach the ball from the outside.
I’m hitting almost all forehands like that now. Never been this confident in my forehand. Inside out swing path is a rubbish myth!
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Really? I thought outside draw works better for low ball and inside fade is for high FH

Doesn't matter which way it fades if it goes mach 2.

Draw and fade are for balls below/at net level where you need rotation to control the shape.

J
 

Addxyz

Hall of Fame
The two most common mistakes for high forehands are preparing at the same height as you would a waist height ball, and hitting at the same contact distance as a waist high ball.

High forehands require higher preparation and contact further in front of the body, including opening the chest more.

J
Isn't there the thing about the shoulder tilt on high balls and low balls?
 

zoingy

Rookie
I get what you say. You make contact with the inside part of the ball to fade it, particularly to fade it I/O.

But with that racquet head comes from outside. Right to left for a righty. Particularly if you hit straight forward or CC.

That’s what I’m talking about. And hand path also. When you hit a low ball, you will usually come from between the ball and the hip with your hand. When you hit a high ball, you will drop your hand more right behind the ball and then swipe across. Racquet head will go higher than the hand and approach the ball from the outside.
tbh I still think all of this stuff is mostly a result of body tilt
 
I get what you say. You make contact with the inside part of the ball to fade it, particularly to fade it I/O.

But with that racquet head comes from outside. Right to left for a righty. Particularly if you hit straight forward or CC.

That’s what I’m talking about. And hand path also. When you hit a low ball, you will usually come from between the ball and the hip with your hand. When you hit a high ball, you will drop your hand more right behind the ball and then swipe across. Racquet head will go higher than the hand and approach the ball from the outside.
He speaks about target you speak about source.
 
Shoulder tilt is a secondary resource if you have completely expended the legs, which I know you guys hate.

Coach Jolly: Bend your f'ing knees.

Student: Well I've got this Babolat RPM and gut hybrid to increase my launch angle so I don't have to.

J
maybe even 3rd or 4th as u'v got hips/tummy b4 shoulder:love::love::love::love::love::love::love::love::love::love::love::love::love:.............

dat's why every now n then those ex top pro commentators saying 'tennis' played by legs'..............but most of idiots focus on rkts/strings/wrist/arms/rkt faces/grips etcetc all sorts of bsht taking the beginners straight to the top end $ride of the learning process misinforming them to make them disorientated w/ admiration. wata disaster n dat's why most of tennis courts are vacant now even w/ lights on so getting pickled is the only way out of the misery:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D.............

lucky our edu system like primo curriculum's not crazy enough to teach kids integration/differentiation b4 +/- or shakespears/apples/bananas/etc b4 alphabet abc.......8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B...........
 
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Dragy

Legend
tbh I still think all of this stuff is mostly a result of body tilt
Body tilt is very rough instrument and far from actual contact. Unless I go really high, like head and above, I won’t be tilting body. Lean forward towards the target maybe.

What I will do is either (or both):
- Prepare high enough, rotate strongly to drive right shoulder more, open chest more, and come to the ball a tad from the outside.
- Load on the right foot behind the ball and explore “into” the ball rather than try to swing through with the stringbed. This is a more spinny option, again brushing diagonally right-to-left as a result.
 

Dragy

Legend
Exactly. Most trustworthy swing path for a fh imo. Just like what you do on a topslice serve.
Mind the grip. For guys with extreme grips this makes it close too much. For E to SW range it gives great RF angle control in addition to other benefits.
 

zoingy

Rookie
Body tilt is very rough instrument and far from actual contact. Unless I go really high, like head and above, I won’t be tilting body. Lean forward towards the target maybe.

What I will do is either (or both):
- Prepare high enough, rotate strongly to drive right shoulder more, open chest more, and come to the ball a tad from the outside.
- Load on the right foot behind the ball and explore “into” the ball rather than try to swing through with the stringbed. This is a more spinny option, again brushing diagonally right-to-left as a result.

I do think a lot of this is a matter of feel vs real, so lemme try to depict what I mean visually:

(oh god have I become one of those guys on the internet drawing lines on videos & overcomplicating inconsequential pixel differences???)


The idea is that your hand is going to be mostly traveling along some sphere centered below the base of your neck (indicated in red circles), because your shoulder doesn't need to move that much independently of the body until close to contact (indicated in purple circles). It's exactly like you've already described - on low balls, of course the natural path is a bit more inside out -- that's the only way to approach the ball with topspin. Similarly, on high balls, the natural path is going to be a bit outside in.

So to use different words to address the discrepancy that @johnmccabe pointed out - Diego's *intention* with the low ball is an outside draw, in order to compensate for the natural inside-out path. Otherwise, the racquet angle would make the ball just go down & right. Therefore you see his body stay more closed, with his arm hooking the ball a bit before contact. And the other way around for the high ball.

Absolutely it's the case that you don't want to use tilt as the primary adjuster - it messes with your balance and racquet angle relative to the court. But IMO if you can adjust up/down purely linearly (i.e. with knee bend or extension), there's no reason to not hit your regular stroke rather than having to think about draw/fade mechanics.

Actually, the opinion I wanted to express was that I don't think most people should jump to consciously changing their stroke too much for high/low balls (beyond body positioning). But of course it's person-to-person, and I don't really have any objective data to suggest this is the better way to teach.
 

Dragy

Legend
there's no reason to not hit your regular stroke rather than having to think about draw/fade mechanics.
My “regular” stroke is either fade or draw. And due to that, whenever I face a situation where this particular variation is suboptimal, I need to do something else.

Way better, in my opinion, is to be well aware of the type of shot you are using. Also there’s that mental thing of what kind of focus works for you personally to achieve desired and optimal result.

Namely, if you use SW grip, it’s hard and suboptimal to hit low balls, or to arc balls high with spin, without draw mechanics. But you also need to approach the ball in a certain way, have corresponding contact point and target the shot with due respect given to curve. You can think of these things all separate, or you can trigger all them as a package. Just like you use topspin vs slice as two distinguished “packages”.

What I personally think, the globe isn’t going to take care of all stroke variations. Because when we receive balls and intend to hit them back, our perception goes with left-right, up-down. We know the court geometry and think of it. No globe is intuitive.
 
The best way to teach is to cultivate the instictive feeling of touch before worrying about the orthodox groundstroke fundamentals. Someone new to tennis should learn how to feel their racquet face angle and modulate force before they ever are concerned with the concept of the unit turn.
 
My “regular” stroke is either fade or draw. And due to that, whenever I face a situation where this particular variation is suboptimal, I need to do something else.

Way better, in my opinion, is to be well aware of the type of shot you are using. Also there’s that mental thing of what kind of focus works for you personally to achieve desired and optimal result.

Namely, if you use SW grip, it’s hard and suboptimal to hit low balls, or to arc balls high with spin, without draw mechanics. But you also need to approach the ball in a certain way, have corresponding contact point and target the shot with due respect given to curve. You can think of these things all separate, or you can trigger all them as a package. Just like you use topspin vs slice as two distinguished “packages”.

What I personally think, the globe isn’t going to take care of all stroke variations. Because when we receive balls and intend to hit them back, our perception goes with left-right, up-down. We know the court geometry and think of it. No globe is intuitive.
You don't think of the globe when you hit but you can use it to analyze externally what the visualizations are causing the body to do.
 

zoingy

Rookie
My “regular” stroke is either fade or draw. And due to that, whenever I face a situation where this particular variation is suboptimal, I need to do something else.

Way better, in my opinion, is to be well aware of the type of shot you are using. Also there’s that mental thing of what kind of focus works for you personally to achieve desired and optimal result.

Namely, if you use SW grip, it’s hard and suboptimal to hit low balls, or to arc balls high with spin, without draw mechanics. But you also need to approach the ball in a certain way, have corresponding contact point and target the shot with due respect given to curve. You can think of these things all separate, or you can trigger all them as a package. Just like you use topspin vs slice as two distinguished “packages”.

What I personally think, the globe isn’t going to take care of all stroke variations. Because when we receive balls and intend to hit them back, our perception goes with left-right, up-down. We know the court geometry and think of it. No globe is intuitive.

Yeah I can totally see how that can be a useful way to encapsulate the adjustments needed. I suppose I'm coming from the other direction, where balance, approach, racquet angle, and contact point are things I'm focusing on anyway, and those will produce some amount of fade or draw that I don't have to specifically target.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
My “regular” stroke is either fade or draw. And due to that, whenever I face a situation where this particular variation is suboptimal, I need to do something else.

Way better, in my opinion, is to be well aware of the type of shot you are using. Also there’s that mental thing of what kind of focus works for you personally to achieve desired and optimal result.

Namely, if you use SW grip, it’s hard and suboptimal to hit low balls, or to arc balls high with spin, without draw mechanics. But you also need to approach the ball in a certain way, have corresponding contact point and target the shot with due respect given to curve. You can think of these things all separate, or you can trigger all them as a package. Just like you use topspin vs slice as two distinguished “packages”.

What I personally think, the globe isn’t going to take care of all stroke variations. Because when we receive balls and intend to hit them back, our perception goes with left-right, up-down. We know the court geometry and think of it. No globe is intuitive.

Yeah I can totally see how that can be a useful way to encapsulate the adjustments needed. I suppose I'm coming from the other direction, where balance, approach, racquet angle, and contact point are things I'm focusing on anyway, and those will produce some amount of fade or draw that I don't have to specifically target.
Time yourself hitting 20 balls up the middle of the court without missing and post the video.

J
 
just wonder any1 can dig out some ancient roman gladiator school curriculum for training the sword warriors instead of dead meat in in the stadium to save tennis from being pickled everywhere lololololololol:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D............
 

TennisCJC

Legend
Isn't Federer hitting inside to outside on every FH in this video? There are a few high FHs between 1 and 2 minutes on the video. It looks like his racket head and hand are inside of the contact point on every FH and the hand moves away from the body to contact. On high FHs, his body is a bit farther away and at contact, he is hitting across more (as well as up) but from transition to forward position in his swing to contact looks like an inside out approach on all his FHs.

 

Dragy

Legend
Isn't Federer hitting inside to outside on every FH in this video? There are a few high FHs between 1 and 2 minutes on the video. It looks like his racket head and hand are inside of the contact point on every FH and the hand moves away from the body to contact. On high FHs, his body is a bit farther away and at contact, he is hitting across more (as well as up) but from transition to forward position in his swing to contact looks like an inside out approach on all his FHs.

It’s an interesting question and it should be defined based on what exactly you focus on. What is optimal and what is opposite/sub-optimal.

Also, saying “inside to outside”, what do you refer to? Camera angle? Court lines? Incoming ball? Outgoing ball?

For example, if you look at high I/O fade forehand, and use target line as reference, the hand will clearly move from straight to the ball first and then curve inward.

But if you examine a CC FH on the run that a player draws back CC, you will see clean inside-to-outside swing that never turns truly back across until follow-through.

You can also say that if hand is taken to 5 or 6 o’clock back, it will then inevitably travel outward towards the ball first. Absolutely! But that’s, for me personally, not the part of the swing where I perceive if my swing is outward or from the outside: I do pay attention to it on the final stage of the swing, where hand isn’t moving with torso uncoil no more, but accelerates to deliver racquet head properly across the ball.

So again, not arguing right or wrong, but for me this talk is important for how you attack the ball from the slot/lag: you get to slot/lag somehow in order to have the hand at good spot to attack the ball — either inside-to-outside, or inward.

Hope I put it clear enough to transmit the idea I rely on.

Another layer to it :laughing: It’s not just which sidespin the ball gets, not just where the ball is sent. It’s also how exactly you execute:

- More uncoil, shoulder forward, wrist held laid back. Fade-type, but can be hit with low ball to produce more clean topspin/flat shot, pulling the handle up and forward. Think Rublev playing low ball. Or same idea but against high ball: think most chest-high I/O power drives.

- A bit more controlled uncoil, torso “slows down” facing the target, arm takes over. Wrist recovers from full layback towards less extended position. Usually used on lower balls to lift, spin and draw… but can be used on higher balls when hitting side leg loads and drives body up and into the ball, and racquet gets released into the ball. Most Rafa high FHs, including buggy-whip are like this. Produces heavy topspin, but less drive and fade.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Isn't Federer hitting inside to outside on every FH in this video? There are a few high FHs between 1 and 2 minutes on the video. It looks like his racket head and hand are inside of the contact point on every FH and the hand moves away from the body to contact. On high FHs, his body is a bit farther away and at contact, he is hitting across more (as well as up) but from transition to forward position in his swing to contact looks like an inside out approach on all his FHs.

Yes.

J
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
It’s an interesting question and it should be defined based on what exactly you focus on. What is optimal and what is opposite/sub-optimal.

Also, saying “inside to outside”, what do you refer to? Camera angle? Court lines? Incoming ball? Outgoing ball?

For example, if you look at high I/O fade forehand, and use target line as reference, the hand will clearly move from straight to the ball first and then curve inward.

But if you examine a CC FH on the run that a player draws back CC, you will see clean inside-to-outside swing that never turns truly back across until follow-through.

You can also say that if hand is taken to 5 or 6 o’clock back, it will then inevitably travel outward towards the ball first. Absolutely! But that’s, for me personally, not the part of the swing where I perceive if my swing is outward or from the outside: I do pay attention to it on the final stage of the swing, where hand isn’t moving with torso uncoil no more, but accelerates to deliver racquet head properly across the ball.

So again, not arguing right or wrong, but for me this talk is important for how you attack the ball from the slot/lag: you get to slot/lag somehow in order to have the hand at good spot to attack the ball — either inside-to-outside, or inward.

Hope I put it clear enough to transmit the idea I rely on.

Another layer to it :laughing: It’s not just which sidespin the ball gets, not just where the ball is sent. It’s also how exactly you execute:

- More uncoil, shoulder forward, wrist held laid back. Fade-type, but can be hit with low ball to produce more clean topspin/flat shot, pulling the handle up and forward. Think Rublev playing low ball. Or same idea but against high ball: think most chest-high I/O power drives.

- A bit more controlled uncoil, torso “slows down” facing the target, arm takes over. Wrist recovers from full layback towards less extended position. Usually used on lower balls to lift, spin and draw… but can be used on higher balls when hitting side leg loads and drives body up and into the ball, and racquet gets released into the ball. Most Rafa high FHs, including buggy-whip are like this. Produces heavy topspin, but less drive and fade.
Double checking that you saw post #71.

J
 

Hnefi

Semi-Pro
1) Teach the hand path, relax the hand incrementally in order to give the racquet more agency within the swing path as timing improves.

2) Teach organization of the feet. The stronger the incoming ball, the more the feet must be organized to receive. The weaker the incoming ball, the more the feet may be organized to facilitate the outgoing ball.
As someone always looking to improve, I am curious why teach hand path? I have always heard instruction that emphasizes the use of the legs and body as the primary and most important parts of the stroke, and that getting those right will mean the arm and hand completely take a backseat. Are you mainly writing this for advanced players i.e., 5.0+ who have already developed the fundamentals to a very high level?
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
what’s your time to beat?
guessing 2 min?
f6649a5c-45fc-4afa-9789-ea4462e4ae19_text.gif


J
 

nyta2

Legend
is that both sides hitting... eg i hit 10, partner hits 10?
(my ref to 20 above, was referring to just me hitting 20 in 2 min...)

haven't done this (doubt i could do either), but i'm curious what my number would be... guessing i'll need to find/hire a utr10+ to do this with :p
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Would it take 6 seconds between your two shots?
He's
is that both sides hitting... eg i hit 10, partner hits 10?
(my ref to 20 above, was referring to just me hitting 20 in 2 min...)

haven't done this (doubt i could do either), but i'm curious what my number would be... guessing i'll need to find/hire a utr10+ to do this with :p

20 for you 20 for them.

J
 

onehandbh

G.O.A.T.
is that both sides hitting... eg i hit 10, partner hits 10?
(my ref to 20 above, was referring to just me hitting 20 in 2 min...)

haven't done this (doubt i could do either), but i'm curious what my number would be... guessing i'll need to find/hire a utr10+ to do this with :p
I can't see the gif. What was the number for 2 minutes?
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
damn, i would have thought 20 in 2 min is decent... doing it in 1 min i presume is pro level?
where are the math wizards to work out the mph required for me and partner to hit 40x over the net in 1min?
How long does it take for your forehand ball to reach your opponent after you hit it? I doubt it will be more than one second. No?
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
As someone always looking to improve, I am curious why teach hand path? I have always heard instruction that emphasizes the use of the legs and body as the primary and most important parts of the stroke, and that getting those right will mean the arm and hand completely take a backseat. Are you mainly writing this for advanced players i.e., 5.0+ who have already developed the fundamentals to a very high level?

I specifically teach top down.

I do this for two separate reasons.

Firstly I want beginners and people new to my coaching to have immediate success.

Most beginners try tennis, it sucks and is hard and they think maybe I need some lessons. 5 minutes into their lesson with Coach Jolly and they are hitting the ball over the net with topspin. This makes it much easier to put in the rest of the work. Very rarely do I tell students you're going to have to trust me on this one. That's the big thing on the continental grip on the serve, they need to see the ball do the thing right away.

Secondly if you start with the legs and body, how does the hand know where to go? This is a breeding ground for bad habits.

I'm a big fan of solving problems in the order they appear, and a big fan of having better problems.

J
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
damn, i would have thought 20 in 2 min is decent... doing it in 1 min i presume is pro level?
where are the math wizards to work out the mph required for me and partner to hit 40x over the net in 1min?

I don't actually care about the time. I just don't think @Dragy can hit 20 balls up the middle of the court without pushing, and is out here writing dissertations on drawing and fading his shots.

J
 

Dragy

Legend
damn, i would have thought 20 in 2 min is decent... doing it in 1 min i presume is pro level?
where are the math wizards to work out the mph required for me and partner to hit 40x over the net in 1min?
Pros have like 1.4 sec racquet to racquet and faster.
Good rec players are below 2 sec racquet to racquet. 20 and 20 shots is 1 min 20 sec.

iirc
 

Dragy

Legend
I don't actually care about the time. I just don't think @Dragy can hit 20 balls up the middle of the court without pushing, and is out here writing dissertations on drawing and fading his shots.

J
Yeah, that would be tough call. But I'm going to try, God bless my hitting partner. Yet you won't discourage me from writing about fade and draw and stuff :p

If you don't want this discussion in your thread, just ask. As I said I respect your call here. Can remove the posts as well if they hurt the cause.
 

nyta2

Legend
As I expected it usually takes about 3 seconds between my shots. That means 20 in a minute. If only I could maintain a 40 ball rally of course!

thx for posting that... never noticed the time it takes (which would indicate how fast we are hitting to get an idea of "avg rally pace" which of course would increase as the levels go up)
[edit]
looked up a vid of myself from ~10y ago (it's the only vids i had easily viewable :p)... was on avg hitting 4x/10s... so 20x/60s is a reasonable goal for me :p.
just looked up in another (tennis) book that the author challenged the reader to hit 600-800 balls per hour (also noting that it needed to be coorperative at "normal rally" pace, else you waste all your time picking up balls, and you never get to that mark..
[edit2]
i need to vid myself again (hopefully) my fh&bh are waaay better than i just watched from ~10y ago...
 
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sureshs

Bionic Poster
I find that my serve is OK only when I am completely relaxed with no muscle tension. But how to achieve this in a competitive setting?
 

MyFearHand

Professional
I find that my serve is OK only when I am completely relaxed with no muscle tension. But how to achieve this in a competitive setting?

Put yourself in a competitive setting more often, particularly in practice. It’s just like public speaking, the more you practice the material the more relaxed you feel when you deliver it.

More physical stuff: take deep breaths. Have a repeated ritual.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Put yourself in a competitive setting more often, particularly in practice. It’s just like public speaking, the more you practice the material the more relaxed you feel when you deliver it.

More physical stuff: take deep breaths. Have a repeated ritual.
I need to be totally relaxed only for the serve. I can play any other shot under any situation. That is what bothers me.
 
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