Pirate Ship Tennis

Hnefi

Semi-Pro
I specifically teach top down.

I do this for two separate reasons.

Firstly I want beginners and people new to my coaching to have immediate success.

Most beginners try tennis, it sucks and is hard and they think maybe I need some lessons. 5 minutes into their lesson with Coach Jolly and they are hitting the ball over the net with topspin. This makes it much easier to put in the rest of the work. Very rarely do I tell students you're going to have to trust me on this one. That's the big thing on the continental grip on the serve, they need to see the ball do the thing right away.

Secondly if you start with the legs and body, how does the hand know where to go? This is a breeding ground for bad habits.

I'm a big fan of solving problems in the order they appear, and a big fan of having better problems.

J
Gotcha. I think I understand the student development angle.

Maybe it's me who has this backwards, but whenever I have thought about specific "hand" actions in tennis I have ended up with bad habits. e.g., when I was trying to learn topspin, people told me to roll the wrist over and make it feel like I was looking at the time on a watch. Just trying to focus on that one motion for too long led me to a very handsy shot that is inconsistent, and I still haven't managed to completely fix. My BH is more consistent than my FH, and I wonder if it's because I have never really focused on the hand action and learned it more ground up...

Myself aside, glad if your students take to this path.

Another related question - why do you say "decleration is more important than acceleration" as level increases?
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Gotcha. I think I understand the student development angle.

Maybe it's me who has this backwards, but whenever I have thought about specific "hand" actions in tennis I have ended up with bad habits. e.g., when I was trying to learn topspin, people told me to roll the wrist over and make it feel like I was looking at the time on a watch. Just trying to focus on that one motion for too long led me to a very handsy shot that is inconsistent, and I still haven't managed to completely fix. My BH is more consistent than my FH, and I wonder if it's because I have never really focused on the hand action and learned it more ground up...

Myself aside, glad if your students take to this path.

Another related question - why do you say "decleration is more important than acceleration" as level increases?

I am not sure what you read, but this is what I wrote.

1) Teach the hand path, relax the hand incrementally in order to give the racquet more agency within the swing path as timing improves.

The hand path starts just behind your hip front to back, just below the ball top to bottom, and about half way between the ball and your body left to right; from there it goes out towards the ball, the racquet passes the hand and hits the ball, and then the racquet pulls the hand around into the follow through.

You were taught wrong/given bad advice/listened to idiots on the internet instead of seeking proper coaching.

What you were attempting to do was use a professional amount of arm roll with an amateur swingspeed. The first thing this does is overspin the ball into the ground/net. The second thing this does after the player says "Wait this can't be right," is slow down the entire swing, make the timing quite late, and create a high archy ball with little rotation or forward speed. At this point the player starts to think "ok, this is looking like topspin, now I just need to swing faster and practice a lot," then they end up lifting the hand to create topspin and rolling the arm for show, spending very little time in the contact zone, shanking balls often off the bottom frame, pulling to the off side, and having an overall erratic swing where most of the speed of the swing occurs after the ball is gone.

J
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Sounded like he was talking about footwork to me :-D

Imo you generally shouldn't tell people to decelerate any part of stroke production even though it happens

Imo if you don't decelerate any part of stroke production you spin around in circles like a 7 year old on his dad's office chair.

J
 

zoingy

Rookie
Imo if you don't decelerate any part of stroke production you spin around in circles like a 7 year old on his dad's office chair.

J
Yea I mean I think it's true, I just think that the more linear release of the throwing cue results in deceleration without potentially introducing hesitation

But I certainly don't have the coaching experience to back that up
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Are we still talking about tennis?

J
Swung the arm, released the ball, now the chest faces the net, why would I continue moving? That’s what I meant. Deceleration concept interesting. When I go to the fridge to get water, do I decelerate or just stop there? I guess nothing can stop without decelerating, or can it? Never mind :D
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Swung the arm, released the ball, now the chest faces the net, why would I continue moving? That’s what I meant. Deceleration concept interesting. When I go to the fridge to get water, do I decelerate or just stop there? I guess nothing can stop without decelerating, or can it? Never mind :D
If you didn't decelerate the chest the arm would not have swung.

J
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
If you didn't decelerate the chest the arm would not have swung.

J
Doesn’t the arm accelerate when my chest accelerates?
By the way I haven’t thought about this before: at what point is the racket head at its highest speed during the swing?
 
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johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
Can you do approach shot?
Sure, anything specific to ask?

J
How to choose the target (e.g. deep, corner, short angle). What kind of ball shape, more drive or more topspin. How to decide whether to follow up to net or back to baseline.

Drills to solidify a high percentage multi shot pattern starting with an approach shot

Common mistakes, tactical or technical, that you see in students.
 
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zill

Legend
As I expected it usually takes about 3 seconds between my shots. That means 20 in a minute. If only I could maintain a 40 ball rally of course!


Geez, my bh look so collapsed here. Looking back, just needed one more month, it's easy in hindsight.
 

Hnefi

Semi-Pro
I am not sure what you read, but this is what I wrote.

1) Teach the hand path, relax the hand incrementally in order to give the racquet more agency within the swing path as timing improves.

The hand path starts just behind your hip front to back, just below the ball top to bottom, and about half way between the ball and your body left to right; from there it goes out towards the ball, the racquet passes the hand and hits the ball, and then the racquet pulls the hand around into the follow through.

You were taught wrong/given bad advice/listened to idiots on the internet instead of seeking proper coaching.

What you were attempting to do was use a professional amount of arm roll with an amateur swingspeed. The first thing this does is overspin the ball into the ground/net. The second thing this does after the player says "Wait this can't be right," is slow down the entire swing, make the timing quite late, and create a high archy ball with little rotation or forward speed. At this point the player starts to think "ok, this is looking like topspin, now I just need to swing faster and practice a lot," then they end up lifting the hand to create topspin and rolling the arm for show, spending very little time in the contact zone, shanking balls often off the bottom frame, pulling to the off side, and having an overall erratic swing where most of the speed of the swing occurs after the ball is gone.

J
I think when I read "teach the hand path", I thought of my own technical struggles which are a mixture of "taught wrong" and then "listened to people on the Internet" instead of paying for a proper coach.

A lot of this misunderstanding comes from me trying to understand your whole teaching philosophy in a few messages without having a series of actual lessons with you.

Starting to understand a bit more after putting it together with the "deceleration" message you wrote.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
I think when I read "teach the hand path", I thought of my own technical struggles which are a mixture of "taught wrong" and then "listened to people on the Internet" instead of paying for a proper coach.

A lot of this misunderstanding comes from me trying to understand your whole teaching philosophy in a few messages without having a series of actual lessons with you.

Starting to understand a bit more after putting it together with the "deceleration" message you wrote.

I would do a free lesson for someone and video it but I couldn't edit the video and nobody is going to watch an hour video.

J
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
@J011yroger
When we throw a ball sidearm we don’t take our hand back making a loop, we take it straight back, then swing from there. Why not do the same on a groundstroke? But how high? I’m thinking as high as the anticipated contact height, more or less. Then how does the racket go under the ball? I tried many times, as long as the grip is loose enough and the racket head is above the hand at the beginning of the forward swing, it always drops below the hand hence below contact point as the swing starts. Thoughts?
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
@J011yroger
When we throw a ball sidearm we don’t take our hand back making a loop, we take it straight back, then swing from there. Why not do the same on a groundstroke? But how high? I’m thinking as high as the anticipated contact height, more or less. Then how does the racket go under the ball? I tried many times, as long as the grip is loose enough and the racket head is above the hand at the beginning of the forward swing, it always drops below the hand hence below contact point as the swing starts. Thoughts?
Because a ball is in your hand and a racquet is outside your hand and applies a torque on your hand question mark

J
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Because a ball is in your hand and a racquet is outside your hand and applies a torque on your hand question mark

J
Rune fh is the closest to what I’m talking about. His hand makes a very minimal loop during take back. I thought rec players’ loop may not be helping considering they struggle with dropping the racket below contact.

 

ballmachineguy

Hall of Fame
Imo you generally shouldn't tell people to decelerate any part of stroke production even though it happens
Correct. Your stroke will be a bit wonky if you decel torso on purpose. It should be the torso responding to the effort to accel the hand.
Rune fh is the closest to what I’m talking about. His hand makes a very minimal loop during take back. I thought rec players’ loop may not be helping considering they struggle with dropping the racket below contact.

There is no intentional loop.
Just like a long jumper doesn’t jump in an arc. He runs fast, jumps as high as he can while running and gravity brings him down.
If you are trying to make a loop, you are doing it wrong.
 
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Curious

G.O.A.T.
There is no intentional loop.
I’ll speak for myself. I feel it’s a silly urge/reflex to lift the hand up during take back. You know how badly I struggled with it on my backhand (better lately). It’s not intentional but it’s wrong and not helpful imo.
 

onehandbh

G.O.A.T.
@J011yroger
Any tips from cramps?

I've tried increasing sodium and staying hydrated, but my forehand still sometimes gets cramped and I hit too close to the body and elbow cannot clear the torso enough. When I get it right, power and spin and control seems to take less effort.

Spacing on my forehand is what I am currently working on. Will try to record a video when I play later today.
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
I’ll speak for myself. I feel it’s a silly urge/reflex to lift the hand up during take back. You know how badly I struggled with it on my backhand (better lately). It’s not intentional but it’s wrong and not helpful imo.
I am not a pirate. And my forehand sucks. But the higher I take back my hand, the less it sucks.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
My forehand sucks less when my hand position at the end of the takeback "matches" the contact point.
That’s the point. Does it really need to go to that ‘contact matching’ height with a loop? I don’t believe in the momentum building with the loop but I understand if some people feel better rhythm that way.
 
That’s the point. Does it really need to go to that ‘contact matching’ height with a loop? I don’t believe in the momentum building with the loop but I understand if some people feel better rhythm that way.
Feeling rhythm is important no matter what you do.
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
At the pro level, 20 years ago — every single Top 100 ATP Pro used a high forehand takeback.*

Today, they don’t teach it anymore and the NextGen players take the hand back lower.

But given the NextGen’s inability to displace the djokodal gen (the last high takeback trained gen), I’d say there is a case that high takeback is superior.

* Mardy Fish is the exception that proves the rule, and his fh sucked.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
At the pro level, 20 years ago — every single Top 100 ATP Pro used a high forehand takeback.*

Today, they don’t teach it anymore and the NextGen players take the hand back lower.

But given the NextGen’s inability to displace the djokodal gen (the last high takeback trained gen), I’d say there is a case that high takeback is superior.

* Mardy Fish is the exception that proves the rule, and his fh sucked.
That’s pro tennis. Rec players struggle getting under the ball and end up having flattish shots. What good does their higher take back do then?
 
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