Guess I'll take you up on the offer then, though I'm not gonna ask my hitting partners to go out of their way to help me do an internet challenge. Whatever footage I get today I'll post a clip of.Yes.
J
Start with your post #91.I suppose I better put more crap in the OP.
J
Can you do approach shot?I suppose I better put more crap in the OP.
J
Gotcha. I think I understand the student development angle.I specifically teach top down.
I do this for two separate reasons.
Firstly I want beginners and people new to my coaching to have immediate success.
Most beginners try tennis, it sucks and is hard and they think maybe I need some lessons. 5 minutes into their lesson with Coach Jolly and they are hitting the ball over the net with topspin. This makes it much easier to put in the rest of the work. Very rarely do I tell students you're going to have to trust me on this one. That's the big thing on the continental grip on the serve, they need to see the ball do the thing right away.
Secondly if you start with the legs and body, how does the hand know where to go? This is a breeding ground for bad habits.
I'm a big fan of solving problems in the order they appear, and a big fan of having better problems.
J
first thought that came to mind... because you want your racquet to fly past your hand like it's at the end of the whip."decleration is more important than acceleration" as level increases?
I thought he meant deceleration and acceleration of the body.first thought that came to mind... because you want your racquet to fly past your hand like it's at the end of the whip.
Sounded like he was talking about footwork to mefirst thought that came to mind... because you want your racquet to fly past your hand like it's at the end of the whip.
Gotcha. I think I understand the student development angle.
Maybe it's me who has this backwards, but whenever I have thought about specific "hand" actions in tennis I have ended up with bad habits. e.g., when I was trying to learn topspin, people told me to roll the wrist over and make it feel like I was looking at the time on a watch. Just trying to focus on that one motion for too long led me to a very handsy shot that is inconsistent, and I still haven't managed to completely fix. My BH is more consistent than my FH, and I wonder if it's because I have never really focused on the hand action and learned it more ground up...
Myself aside, glad if your students take to this path.
Another related question - why do you say "decleration is more important than acceleration" as level increases?
first thought that came to mind... because you want your racquet to fly past your hand like it's at the end of the whip.
I thought he meant deceleration and acceleration of the body.![]()
Sounded like he was talking about footwork to me
Imo you generally shouldn't tell people to decelerate any part of stroke production even though it happens
I got it wrong. I was thinking about deceleration before getting to the ball and to the recovery point to gain balance.Decelerate body...hand passes body...decelerate hand...racquet passes hand.
J
Interesting. When I throw a ball I wonder when I decelerate. Maybe the moment I release the ball.Imo if you don't decelerate any part of stroke production you spin around in circles like a 7 year old on his dad's office chair.
J
Yea I mean I think it's true, I just think that the more linear release of the throwing cue results in deceleration without potentially introducing hesitationImo if you don't decelerate any part of stroke production you spin around in circles like a 7 year old on his dad's office chair.
J
You did not get it wrong.I got it wrong. I was thinking about deceleration before getting to the ball and to the recovery point to gain balance.
I mean you were not talking about what I was thinking. You were talking about swing mechanics, right?You did not get it wrong.
J
You either decelerate your chest when you face the target or you "throw like a girl" as much as I hate that expression.Interesting. When I throw a ball I wonder when I decelerate. Maybe the moment I release the ball.
Why should I continue the action when the job is already done?You either decelerate your chest when you face the target
I was talking about footwork but it all goes together. The footwork facilitates the swing mechanics.I mean you were not talking about what I was thinking. You were talking about swing mechanics, right?
Why should I continue the action when the job is already done?![]()
Swung the arm, released the ball, now the chest faces the net, why would I continue moving? That’s what I meant. Deceleration concept interesting. When I go to the fridge to get water, do I decelerate or just stop there? I guess nothing can stop without decelerating, or can it? Never mindAre we still talking about tennis?
J
If you didn't decelerate the chest the arm would not have swung.Swung the arm, released the ball, now the chest faces the net, why would I continue moving? That’s what I meant. Deceleration concept interesting. When I go to the fridge to get water, do I decelerate or just stop there? I guess nothing can stop without decelerating, or can it? Never mind![]()
Doesn’t the arm accelerate when my chest accelerates?If you didn't decelerate the chest the arm would not have swung.
J
Can you do approach shot?
How to choose the target (e.g. deep, corner, short angle). What kind of ball shape, more drive or more topspin. How to decide whether to follow up to net or back to baseline.Sure, anything specific to ask?
J
As I expected it usually takes about 3 seconds between my shots. That means 20 in a minute. If only I could maintain a 40 ball rally of course!
Only one person posting a 20 ball rally, and a typical brave soul at that. Props to C as usual.
Good stuff J0lly. Interesting methods for development.
I think when I read "teach the hand path", I thought of my own technical struggles which are a mixture of "taught wrong" and then "listened to people on the Internet" instead of paying for a proper coach.I am not sure what you read, but this is what I wrote.
1) Teach the hand path, relax the hand incrementally in order to give the racquet more agency within the swing path as timing improves.
The hand path starts just behind your hip front to back, just below the ball top to bottom, and about half way between the ball and your body left to right; from there it goes out towards the ball, the racquet passes the hand and hits the ball, and then the racquet pulls the hand around into the follow through.
You were taught wrong/given bad advice/listened to idiots on the internet instead of seeking proper coaching.
What you were attempting to do was use a professional amount of arm roll with an amateur swingspeed. The first thing this does is overspin the ball into the ground/net. The second thing this does after the player says "Wait this can't be right," is slow down the entire swing, make the timing quite late, and create a high archy ball with little rotation or forward speed. At this point the player starts to think "ok, this is looking like topspin, now I just need to swing faster and practice a lot," then they end up lifting the hand to create topspin and rolling the arm for show, spending very little time in the contact zone, shanking balls often off the bottom frame, pulling to the off side, and having an overall erratic swing where most of the speed of the swing occurs after the ball is gone.
J
Hopefully as it hits the ball question markDoesn’t the arm accelerate when my chest accelerates?
By the way I haven’t thought about this before: at what point is the racket head at its highest speed during the swing?
I think when I read "teach the hand path", I thought of my own technical struggles which are a mixture of "taught wrong" and then "listened to people on the Internet" instead of paying for a proper coach.
A lot of this misunderstanding comes from me trying to understand your whole teaching philosophy in a few messages without having a series of actual lessons with you.
Starting to understand a bit more after putting it together with the "deceleration" message you wrote.
Don't sell yourself short. Think of it more like a reference work than a quick piece of content.I would do a free lesson for someone and video it but I couldn't edit the video and nobody is going to watch an hour video.
J
Maybe if I get a volunteer we can do something and have them post their side. So we get my pov and theirs and then the video for perspective.Don't sell yourself short. Think of it more like a reference work than a quick piece of content.
Based on Suresh logic, adults are not capable of building muscleYou want a 6 pack and big muscles, go to the gym and stop eating pizza and drinking beer.
Because a ball is in your hand and a racquet is outside your hand and applies a torque on your hand question mark@J011yroger
When we throw a ball sidearm we don’t take our hand back making a loop, we take it straight back, then swing from there. Why not do the same on a groundstroke? But how high? I’m thinking as high as the anticipated contact height, more or less. Then how does the racket go under the ball? I tried many times, as long as the grip is loose enough and the racket head is above the hand at the beginning of the forward swing, it always drops below the hand hence below contact point as the swing starts. Thoughts?
Rune fh is the closest to what I’m talking about. His hand makes a very minimal loop during take back. I thought rec players’ loop may not be helping considering they struggle with dropping the racket below contact.Because a ball is in your hand and a racquet is outside your hand and applies a torque on your hand question mark
J
Correct. Your stroke will be a bit wonky if you decel torso on purpose. It should be the torso responding to the effort to accel the hand.Imo you generally shouldn't tell people to decelerate any part of stroke production even though it happens
There is no intentional loop.Rune fh is the closest to what I’m talking about. His hand makes a very minimal loop during take back. I thought rec players’ loop may not be helping considering they struggle with dropping the racket below contact.
I’ll speak for myself. I feel it’s a silly urge/reflex to lift the hand up during take back. You know how badly I struggled with it on my backhand (better lately). It’s not intentional but it’s wrong and not helpful imo.There is no intentional loop.
I am not a pirate. And my forehand sucks. But the higher I take back my hand, the less it sucks.I’ll speak for myself. I feel it’s a silly urge/reflex to lift the hand up during take back. You know how badly I struggled with it on my backhand (better lately). It’s not intentional but it’s wrong and not helpful imo.
My forehand sucks less when my hand position at the end of the takeback "matches" the contact point.I am not a pirate. And my forehand sucks. But the higher I take back my hand, the less it sucks.
“How to suck less” would be good title for online forehand lesson.My forehand sucks less when my hand position at the end of the takeback "matches" the contact point.
That’s the point. Does it really need to go to that ‘contact matching’ height with a loop? I don’t believe in the momentum building with the loop but I understand if some people feel better rhythm that way.My forehand sucks less when my hand position at the end of the takeback "matches" the contact point.
Feeling rhythm is important no matter what you do.That’s the point. Does it really need to go to that ‘contact matching’ height with a loop? I don’t believe in the momentum building with the loop but I understand if some people feel better rhythm that way.
There’s a rhythm in straight back take back as well.Feeling rhythm is important no matter what you do.
Yes it's something that fits to the individual. Good coaches like our dear OP here are able to recognize that and prescribe the correct one for their pupil.There’s a rhythm in straight back take back as well.
That’s pro tennis. Rec players struggle getting under the ball and end up having flattish shots. What good does their higher take back do then?At the pro level, 20 years ago — every single Top 100 ATP Pro used a high forehand takeback.*
Today, they don’t teach it anymore and the NextGen players take the hand back lower.
But given the NextGen’s inability to displace the djokodal gen (the last high takeback trained gen), I’d say there is a case that high takeback is superior.
* Mardy Fish is the exception that proves the rule, and his fh sucked.