Pirate Ship Tennis

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
That’s pro tennis. Rec players struggle getting under the ball and end up having flattish shots. What good does their higher take back do then?
I try to stay away from these debates. Every ball is different and we just adapt. High or low take back can both generate flat or heavy topspin.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Rune fh is the closest to what I’m talking about. His hand makes a very minimal loop during take back. I thought rec players’ loop may not be helping considering they struggle with dropping the racket below contact.


Sorry, I misunderstood you.

I don't like the overly high takeback, I encourage take back higher than the ball will bounce but just by a bit, then drop under and swing. I don't like the direct to the contact height or lower takeback but I am not 100% against it.

There are a lot of things I say "I believe this is better, but if you feel much more comfortable doing that, I am ok with it."

J
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
@J011yroger
Any tips from cramps?

I've tried increasing sodium and staying hydrated, but my forehand still sometimes gets cramped and I hit too close to the body and elbow cannot clear the torso enough. When I get it right, power and spin and control seems to take less effort.

Spacing on my forehand is what I am currently working on. Will try to record a video when I play later today.
Hit straight up the middle of the court with a hitting partner and alternate hitting forehands and backhands.

If it looks ok when you do this drill, then you are being lazy or have anxiety. If it doesn't look ok in this drill, your spatial awareness sucks.

Both can be fixed, but we need to know what we are dealing with.

J
 

ballmachineguy

Hall of Fame
That’s pro tennis. Rec players struggle getting under the ball and end up having flattish shots. What good does their higher take back do then?
Doesn’t do you any good, if you don’t know why you take it back high. It has to do with momentum, but not for ball velocity. You can’t knock what you don’t understand. What’s next, going on a nuclear energy forum and questioning what nuclear fission is good for, since you can’t seem to do it in your kitchen. Lol
 
That’s pro tennis. Rec players struggle getting under the ball and end up having flattish shots. What good does their higher take back do then?

g=9.8m/t^2 n it's free.........especially if 000s hits everyday, cumulatively save ur energy n less injuries. unless some1 wants 2 cook his/her elbow/wrist amateurishly:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D............
 

Dragy

Legend
Rec players struggle getting under the ball and end up having flattish shots.
Taking into account a lot of rec players use moonballs as their primary rally ball, I question your initial idea. No problems getting under the ball for most.
 

Dragy

Legend
And I question this. Most rec players use sw grip and they hit short.
Again, if they hit with SW grip off hip or belly height, from the baseline — they definitely lift the ball over the net.

What you describe is lack of power, penetration, even the basic level that carries ball deep enough… But who cares about power for rec players, it’s overrated!

PS Of course we may just look at different groups of rec players, not level-related but just randomly assembled. There are a lot of 3.0-3.5 people out there, with different styles and issues. Just look at you Aussies, you play upside down!
 

StringSnapper

Hall of Fame
Looking forward to updates to the OP.

Btw @Curious what he's talking about in deceleration of the chest I've mentioned before. For 1hbh going cross court, chest faces net post (45 deg) and dtl it faces side fence. Im talking it decelerates to stop at those positions, as a rough guide. (For the ideal shot). That happens first before the arm whips through.

Forehand it faces the direction you want to hit.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
@ballmachineguy @Dragy
These are Vic Braden’s words: number one problem in rec tennis is not getting under the ball.
Anyway I believe high take back is a problem for two reasons: a rec player is usually late on prep and secondly he is tense in the arm/grip. Both these compromise racket drop below the ball. Someone with great timing and looseness like Del Potro can still drop the racket head all the way though despite having a giant loop of takeback.
 

Dragy

Legend
he is tense in the arm/grip
Imho, high takeback is one of most efficient ways to fight tightness. Force yourself to prepare higher (and earlier of course) instead of tightening "level".

That's my personal experience, not claiming it to be uniformly applicable, but worth trying. Whenever feel tight and cannot drop below the ball, try preparing way higher, and only then dropping below the ball.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Imho, high takeback is one of most efficient ways to fight tightness. Force yourself to prepare higher (and earlier of course) instead of tightening "level".

That's my personal experience, not claiming it to be uniformly applicable, but worth trying. Whenever feel tight and cannot drop below the ball, try preparing way higher, and only then dropping below the ball.
How can it work without fixing the late prep and tightness in match play? I have doubts.
 

Dragy

Legend
How can it work without fixing the late prep and tightness in match play? I have doubts.
Long-term goals. You start doing it. You figure out you cannot do it if late. You start prioritizing this over staring at the ball, thinking what can go wrong, worrying about this being a break-point.

There’s no immediate fix you can apply to technique in match play. You either already know it and just remind yourself, or you keep struggling.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Long-term goals. You start doing it. You figure out you cannot do it if late. You start prioritizing this over staring at the ball, thinking what can go wrong, worrying about this being a break-point.

There’s no immediate fix you can apply to technique in match play. You either already know it and just remind yourself, or you keep struggling.
Your experience vs mine then. I have cleaner contact with the ball when I lower my take back height.
 

dennis

Semi-Pro
That’s pro tennis. Rec players struggle getting under the ball and end up having flattish shots. What good does their higher take back do then?

I would say one advantage is that it decreases the chances of a player developing a stop-start, pendulum swing.
 

zoingy

Rookie
Am I getting offered free coaching or am I just getting called out? :-D
Guess I'll take you up on the offer then, though I'm not gonna ask my hitting partners to go out of their way to help me do an internet challenge. Whatever footage I get today I'll post a clip of.

Alright I cut together yesterday's footage. We ended up pushing it down the middle for most of the hour anyway since it was so hot & humid. Sadly I was unable to complete the challenge (20 me 20 them in a row) but here's the best I could do:

"26" me and "27" me with breaks in the rally
~25 me 26 them where I may have sent a backhand long in the middle

Rhythm was around 20bpm.

I'll gladly take any feedback!

 

zill

Legend
Alright I cut together yesterday's footage. We ended up pushing it down the middle for most of the hour anyway since it was so hot & humid. Sadly I was unable to complete the challenge (20 me 20 them in a row) but here's the best I could do:

"26" me and "27" me with breaks in the rally
~25 me 26 them where I may have sent a backhand long in the middle

Rhythm was around 20bpm.

I'll gladly take any feedback!

Your bh looks a bit off. Takeback is not optimal. You seem to be trying to take it back like the players in the 90s (Jim Courier?) and early 00’s a bit out dated now. Overall it looks lacking in power.
 

nyta2

Legend
Interesting. When I throw a ball I wonder when I decelerate. Maybe the moment I release the ball.
When we throw a ball sidearm we don’t take our hand back making a loop, we take it straight back, then swing from there. Why not do the same on a groundstroke? But how high? I’m thinking as high as the anticipated contact height, more or less. Then how does the racket go under the ball? I tried many times, as long as the grip is loose enough and the racket head is above the hand at the beginning of the forward swing, it always drops below the hand hence below contact point as the swing starts. Thoughts?
hitting a fh, for me feels like i'm throwing the racquet like i'm skipping a rock...
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
Long-term goals. You start doing it. You figure out you cannot do it if late. You start prioritizing this over staring at the ball, thinking what can go wrong, worrying about this being a break-point.

There’s no immediate fix you can apply to technique in match play
. You either already know it and just remind yourself, or you keep struggling.
Or you slap on an ounce of gorilla tape to your racquet that forces an immediate change to your technique.
 

nyta2

Legend
That’s pro tennis. Rec players struggle getting under the ball and end up having flattish shots. What good does their higher take back do then?
i think the top reason rec players struggle to get under the ball, is that their mental model of hitting a qualtiy shot is wrong:
1. they think "hitting close to the net" is a high quality shot
2. they are trying to hit "as hard as the pros" without developing the control via topspin...
those were my issues anyway (arguably still are :p)
 
i think the top reason rec players struggle to get under the ball, is that their mental model of hitting a qualtiy shot is wrong:
1. they think "hitting close to the net" is a high quality shot
2. they are trying to hit "as hard as the pros" without developing the control via topspin...
those were my issues anyway (arguably still are :p)
Hitting close to the net is strongly correlated with high quality offensive shots tbf
 
Or take a nail clipper and trim off 7g of dead weight on the bottom of the cap grommet on your prestige.
It is funny you mention this because I was looking at my 2021 Prestige Pro yesterday and came suddenly to the conclusion that the CAP system makes little sense to me. No other manufacture but Head seems to implement such a comprehensive coverage of the outer rim of their racquet and I am not sure what it really achieves.
 

MyFearHand

Professional
i think the top reason rec players struggle to get under the ball, is that their mental model of hitting a qualtiy shot is wrong:
1. they think "hitting close to the net" is a high quality shot
2. they are trying to hit "as hard as the pros" without developing the control via topspin...
those were my issues anyway (arguably still are :p)

This is a highly insightful post imo. The balls that look low from the overhead television view are a lot higher than they look. The average rally ball is quite high over the net. But even clean winners that are flat tend to not be clipping the tape.

I was just at the Citi Open this past weekend watching Sabalenka play. She went down 0-4 in 14 minutes slapping the ball and hitting the net a ton. Eventually she starts playing with a bit more margin and lo and behold she is able to recover a break and lose the set 4-6. Even Sabalenka was hitting balls with margin over the net.

I’m not going to say I don’t fall prey to this idea that offense has to be low and hard. I often make this mistake. Especially because being aggressive doesn’t come naturally to me. But when I’m playing my best I’m almost never missing in the net off of a neutral or offensive ball.
 

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
i think the top reason rec players struggle to get under the ball, is that their mental model of hitting a qualtiy shot is wrong:
1. they think "hitting close to the net" is a high quality shot
2. they are trying to hit "as hard as the pros" without developing the control via topspin...
those were my issues anyway (arguably still are :p)
Do you think eventually a good player needs to have good control both with and without a lot of topspin? I found trying to hit a lot of topspin is more error prone in defensive situation, compare to focusing on good placement and redirecting pace.
 

nyta2

Legend
Do you think eventually a good player needs to have good control both with and without a lot of topspin? I found trying to hit a lot of topspin is more error prone in defensive situation, compare to focusing on good placement and redirecting pace.
i'm not aiming for "alot of topspin"... i'm aiming for some combination of pace & spin that let's me put the ball where i want (eg. depth)... as my pace goes up (or as my opponent's pace goes up), i'm usually looking to temper it with more spin so i can lift it with good margin, while still bringing it back down...

defensive situations... my go to is to play with more height and spin if i have time to set up and lift the ball with topspin (moonball/lob/etc...),... but if i don't have time, i'll just slice it back (on both fh and bh sides)... no shame in slicing back a fh if pulled wide (which can be extremely difficult to get under to hit back with topspin)
 

Dragy

Legend
I’m not going to say I don’t fall prey to this idea that offense has to be low and hard. I often make this mistake. Especially because being aggressive doesn’t come naturally to me. But when I’m playing my best I’m almost never missing in the net off of a neutral or offensive ball.
It also depends on the ball you play. If it’s knee height, you can go pretty low over the net with spin, and feel safe enough. You don’t try to lift it extra couple of feet unless with some particular intention.

Now when you play a belly-high ball and want to go deep and hard, trying to drill it low over the net usually is unnatural and risk-prone.

Hit a chest-high ball from inside the court — you might want to drive it flatter (or you may not), it could hit the court relatively short, but clear the net within 2ft window, even though you hit much more straight/down than on other shots.

Just some thoughts.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Alright I cut together yesterday's footage. We ended up pushing it down the middle for most of the hour anyway since it was so hot & humid. Sadly I was unable to complete the challenge (20 me 20 them in a row) but here's the best I could do:

"26" me and "27" me with breaks in the rally
~25 me 26 them where I may have sent a backhand long in the middle

Rhythm was around 20bpm.

I'll gladly take any feedback!

Hey, pretty good!

J
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Looking forward to updates to the OP.

Btw @Curious what he's talking about in deceleration of the chest I've mentioned before. For 1hbh going cross court, chest faces net post (45 deg) and dtl it faces side fence. Im talking it decelerates to stop at those positions, as a rough guide. (For the ideal shot). That happens first before the arm whips through.

Forehand it faces the direction you want to hit.

I added volley stuff to the op yesterday.

Any suggestions for the next thing?

J
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
I didn't give specifics for anything.

J


images
 

MyFearHand

Professional
Alright I cut together yesterday's footage. We ended up pushing it down the middle for most of the hour anyway since it was so hot & humid. Sadly I was unable to complete the challenge (20 me 20 them in a row) but here's the best I could do:

"26" me and "27" me with breaks in the rally
~25 me 26 them where I may have sent a backhand long in the middle

Rhythm was around 20bpm.

I'll gladly take any feedback!


I wish I had a blurry wall that moved and hit my balls back!
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
How to choose the target (e.g. deep, corner, short angle). What kind of ball shape, more drive or more topspin. How to decide whether to follow up to net or back to baseline.

Drills to solidify a high percentage multi shot pattern starting with an approach shot

Common mistakes, tactical or technical, that you see in students.
Sorry I missed this post.

Choose target:

If their backhand sucks most of the time you just approach there.

Failing that most of the time you want to approach deep down the line. This keeps your opponent at bay and allows you to close the net more. Approaching cross court means you need to cover the other side of the court, so you have to move more L/R and can't get as close. Approaching to the open court, approaching to the middle and approaching with a short chip or drop shot are valid tactics as well.

Good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgment.

I do structured live ball drills and if I see a problem area I drill that on hand feeds or dead ball.

Common mistakes: Hitting approach shots they can't cover, trying to get to the net before they hit the ball, hitting too high over the net and missing long.

J
 

zoingy

Rookie
Your bh looks a bit off. Takeback is not optimal. You seem to be trying to take it back like the players in the 90s (Jim Courier?) and early 00’s a bit out dated now. Overall it looks lacking in power.

Thanks for the feedback! Yeah it was pretty bad that day - I've got some old habits that creep in whenever I try to control the ball too much.

I think it ultimately stems from subconsciously wanting to feel the connected & firm right arm/wrist of a 1hbh -- but the conti grip and attached left hand means that I get stuck in an extra low & close "left-pocket" position where I have to open up my body too much in order to swing. To make it worse, I'll often not turn enough when I get in that pushing mindset.

Often I can fix it by telling myself to loosen up, lean forward, separate my arms from my body, and allow my wrist to "break"... but those don't stick very well when I tense up.

Good point re: the takeback though - I'm gonna experiment with forcing my right arm to be more across the body in the takeback (rather than diagonally down), and hopefully that'll force everything else to fall into place with less mental effort.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I feel like it’s a good idea to develop the habit of creating spin on every ball be it an offensive or defensive groundstroke, approach, neutral rally ball, serve … thoughts coach?
 
This is a highly insightful post imo. The balls that look low from the overhead television view are a lot higher than they look. The average rally ball is quite high over the net. But even clean winners that are flat tend to not be clipping the tape.

I was just at the Citi Open this past weekend watching Sabalenka play. She went down 0-4 in 14 minutes slapping the ball and hitting the net a ton. Eventually she starts playing with a bit more margin and lo and behold she is able to recover a break and lose the set 4-6. Even Sabalenka was hitting balls with margin over the net.

I’m not going to say I don’t fall prey to this idea that offense has to be low and hard. I often make this mistake. Especially because being aggressive doesn’t come naturally to me. But when I’m playing my best I’m almost never missing in the net off of a neutral or offensive ball.
When I'm playing my best I'm not missing in the net on balls targeted with <1ft clearance.
 
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