Placement of a Kick-Serve Ball Toss vs. Execution of Biomechanics

Do you use a consistent leg drive(only for the purpose of gaining a higher angle) on serve?

  • Yes

  • No

Results are only viewable after voting.
CAREDDINGTON

CAREDDINGTON

Semi-Pro
Good day to all of you! I am a recently joined member of this forum looking for an answer I have been searching for a couple years. A little nomenclature: I am a 17 year old playing D1 HS tennis, been playing all of my life and have a moderate-advanced experience level. NTRP 5.0 and UTR 11.5. Over the past couple years I have been working with my local ret. pro to specifically help me shrink my margin of error and to have better overall consistency on serve. As of right now, I am able to hit a flat serve at 115+ mph, 'topspin'(I realize the controversy surrounding topspin and true kick serve) at 105+ mph, and slice at 100 mph, consistently. However, when I try to exert the same potential-kinetic energy(starting with the same 'routine'-shifting of weight to the back foot, followed by ball toss, weight shifted back forward, foot sliding into pinpoint stance, leg drive, and pronation of both the wrist(snap) and the elbow- I use on the other three serves(despite ball toss difference) to hit a true side-spiraling kick serve, I cannot hit a ball over 90 mph. I have even shifted the ball toss in front of me in the place of a topspin serve, attempting to throw my weight under it and drive up on the ball, however I have not had much success. I know for a fact that throwing the ball behind me in a more rec. style toss will only result in higher rotation count and not greater velocity. Any wisdom from the wise?

A Biomechanically Based Observational Tennis Serve Analysis Method Can be Used to Assess Serve Mechanics
 
At you level, seeking highly technical details here may not result in what you expect. Before you take any reply seriously, ask the poster how fast he ever hit a serve or how many high level juniors he ever coached. I can't even hit a flat serve above 100 myself. So I'll just shut up and learn in case someone really know the answer shows up.

This place is mostly for recreational old men killing time and can be incredibly helpful for beginner to intermediate level self-taught adults. you may get people telling you that you don't need a 90+ kick serve. Or someone sounds extremely experienced but actually can't even hit a decent flat serve.
 
So, you are getting enough topspin (bounce height) and kick (ball moves towards the right after the bounce), but lack only the pace you are looking for? Or do you want more height and/or sideways kick also?
 
onehandbh said:
What percentages are you able to get in each of your serves?

115 mph flat?
105 topsin?
100 slice?
Click to expand...
Over 85 percent on all. After 3 hours of serving every day for 2 years you become very consistent. However, if you had to rank, my topspin is probably most consistent.
 
johnmccabe said:
At you level, seeking highly technical details here may not result in what you expect. Before you take any reply seriously, ask the poster how fast he ever hit a serve or how many high level juniors he ever coached. I can't even hit a flat serve above 100 myself. So I'll just shut up and learn in case someone really know the answer shows up.

This place is mostly for recreational old men killing time and can be incredibly helpful for beginner to intermediate level self-taught adults. you may get people telling you that you don't need a 90+ kick serve. Or someone sounds extremely experienced but actually can't even hit a decent flat serve.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the acknowledgment, johnmcabe. I will take that into consideration.
 
socallefty said:
So, you are getting enough topspin (bounce height) and kick (ball moves towards the right after the bounce), but lack only the pace you are looking for? Or do you want more height and/or sideways kick also?
Click to expand...
I have the required height(bounce after contact)on the ball, but lack enough sidespin and pace.
 
cr623 said:
Good day to all of you! I am a recently joined member of this forum looking for an answer I have been searching for a couple years. A little nomenclature: I am a 17 year old playing D1 HS tennis, been playing all of my life and have a moderate-advanced experience level. NTRP 5.0 and UTR 11.5. Over the past couple years I have been working with my local ret. pro to specifically help me shrink my margin of error and to have better overall consistency on serve. As of right now, I am able to hit a flat serve at 115+ mph, 'topspin'(I realize the controversy surrounding topspin and true kick serve) at 105+ mph, and slice at 100 mph, consistently. However, when I try to exert the same potential-kinetic energy(starting with the same 'routine'-shifting of weight to the back foot, followed by ball toss, weight shifted back forward, foot sliding into pinpoint stance, leg drive, and pronation of both the wrist(snap) and the elbow- I use on the other three serves(despite ball toss difference) to hit a true side-spiraling kick serve, I cannot hit a ball over 90 mph. I have even shifted the ball toss in front of me in the place of a topspin serve, attempting to throw my weight under it and drive up on the ball, however I have not had much success. I know for a fact that throwing the ball behind me in a more rec. style toss will only result in higher rotation count and not greater velocity. Any wisdom from the wise?

A Biomechanically Based Observational Tennis Serve Analysis Method Can be Used to Assess Serve Mechanics
Click to expand...
Taking into account I am 6 feet, 170.
 
Dragy said:
You want more sidespin for side-bounce or curve?
Click to expand...
Side-bounce. My arc over the net is 4 feet from center, followed by a step drop of about 35 degrees. My bounce upon contact is about 5 feet of kick, however, it stretches about 2 feet from where it makes contact. Good amount of topspin, but not enough sidespin. I have even tried to duplicate a slice-out-wide and get under the ball to kick it, but, just like the first, I either shank it to the sky or hit a hard slice.
 
cr623 said:
Side-bounce. My arc over the net is 4 feet from center, followed by a step drop of about 35 degrees. My bounce upon contact is about 5 feet of kick, however, it stretches about 2 feet from where it makes contact. Good amount of topspin, but not enough sidespin. I have even tried to duplicate a slice-out-wide and get under the ball to kick it, but, just like the first, I either shank it to the sky or hit a hard slice.
Click to expand...
I have seen, and played with, guys who can kick 100+ and stretch off court 5 feet. Just trying to get a grasp on what small technical detail might need to be shifted.
 
cr623 said:
I have seen, and played with, guys who can kick 100+ and stretch off court 5 feet. Just trying to get a grasp on what small technical detail might need to be shifted.
Click to expand...
Interesting, I'm not in doubt it's technically possible or whether you saw what you describe. For example, here Federer makes it to "only" 99 mph:

It's not sidespin which makes the ball bounce sideways - slice serve doesn't, for instance. And to not dive deep into details, you'd have bigger "break" with slower ball flight - and more of curve before bounce. That is why most pros who go for kick serves end up in 90s or sometimes high 80s. Top pros I mean, really good players/servers.

Meanwhile, you can get huge off-the-court angle with 100mph "topspin serve" by placing it on the sideline while standing farther from the middle, for example.

Alcaraz 90mph kick:
 
Yes, I understand the concept of slower ball flight and more in front ball toss(driving underneath the ball and up) to compensate for both the topspin, to dive into the court, and spiralspin, to drive out of the court. My question is: In changing your ball toss to a more pro toss(in front) would this theoretically allow you to exert enough spin on the ball to drive 5 feet off the court. Or, like Federer serves, is the over-the-head platform stance beneficial, and pace unnecessary.
 
cr623 said:
Yes, I understand the concept of slower ball flight and more in front ball toss(driving underneath the ball and up) to compensate for both the topspin, to dive into the court, and spiralspin, to drive out of the court. My question is: In changing your ball toss to a more pro toss(in front) would this theoretically allow you to exert enough spin on the ball to drive 5 feet off the court. Or, like Federer serves, is the over-the-head platform stance beneficial, and pace unnecessary.
Click to expand...
A more aggressive placement of the ball toss^
 
cr623 said:
Good day to all of you! I am a recently joined member of this forum looking for an answer I have been searching for a couple years. A little nomenclature: I am a 17 year old playing D1 HS tennis, been playing all of my life and have a moderate-advanced experience level. NTRP 5.0 and UTR 11.5. Over the past couple years I have been working with my local ret. pro to specifically help me shrink my margin of error and to have better overall consistency on serve. As of right now, I am able to hit a flat serve at 115+ mph, 'topspin'(I realize the controversy surrounding topspin and true kick serve) at 105+ mph, and slice at 100 mph, consistently. However, when I try to exert the same potential-kinetic energy(starting with the same 'routine'-shifting of weight to the back foot, followed by ball toss, weight shifted back forward, foot sliding into pinpoint stance, leg drive, and pronation of both the wrist(snap) and the elbow- I use on the other three serves(despite ball toss difference) to hit a true side-spiraling kick serve, I cannot hit a ball over 90 mph. I have even shifted the ball toss in front of me in the place of a topspin serve, attempting to throw my weight under it and drive up on the ball, however I have not had much success. I know for a fact that throwing the ball behind me in a more rec. style toss will only result in higher rotation count and not greater velocity. Any wisdom from the wise?

A Biomechanically Based Observational Tennis Serve Analysis Method Can be Used to Assess Serve Mechanics
Click to expand...
In answer to the question no, it's part of my natural serving rhytmn and I wouldn't want to mess with that.

90mph is pretty decent for pro level kick serves as has been said. I think at 80 plus you start to get a decent kicker (ie reasonable movement).

At lower serve speeds you're not generating enough spin with that speed and its an accelerating fast moving racket that's producing both the spin and speed in all service types it's just going more to spin with a kicker.

When you hit any ball energy is going to spin and speed as well as been dissipated into things like heat and sound. A kick serve would I imagine have a more oblique contact which will help spin but hurt speed as you are holding your shoulders sideways longer and your hitting arm is going less forward and more sideways throughout the contact zone.

Edit: So if contacts viewed as 3d and you're going to some degrees say up forward and out when serving then in a kicker there's a bit more up and out and a bit less forward which impacts the speed and spin rates as well as the axis of spin when considering a true kicker.
 
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I should have worded that better, my fault. I meant that I play high school level tennis(which is a joke) but already have offers for Division 1 collegiate teams. So, at this point in my "career," I do not practice or match against anyone that is not collegiate. (Unless it's a regional or state HS tournament)
 
If you have correct placement, which I do, then I believe in making the best use of my kinetic energy. It is not necessary at all, and at HS level no one can even return my topspin serve(much less kick), but if you can play to the best of your ability why not? At my age it is the best use of my time to take advantage of metabolic efficiency and hormones. Haha.
 
Happi said:
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It is a great serve, I do agree. About 85 mph with a 6 and a half foot topspin-kick(the tape could have effected that imho). He sacrificed velocity(speed and direction) and sidespin for topspin, however. If you hit it harder and slow the revolutions to around 1800rpm, with adjacent sidespin, you will receive the same affect when the ball hits the court. It may not bounce over the returners head, but then again that's not the really the point. The balls rotations will double when it contacts the court, followed by the drive off the court to the side at an angle. Go watch Roddick's serve and compare it to Federer's.
 
cr623 said:
Here's another thought: What racket is your preference and string setup? Vibration damper? No damper?
Click to expand...
I was told heavy racquets help kick serve. My normal racquet is 328gram total. I have a vcore pro 97 weighted up to 342gram. Decided to give it a try and really really liked it for the kickers.
 
I already like you more, johnmccabe. I am a Yonex man also, 23 Vcore 98 with 4g weight on the throat. It keeps it at a nice 4pt HL. I like a monofilament on the mains and a polyester on the crosses. Tension is a massive player with these rackets. Also I hate dampers with a passion.
 
High school, eh?

giphy.gif
 
cr623 said:
Yeah. Some people the skill comes natural. Lol
Click to expand...

There are plenty of high school kids who are 11.5 UTR, hell my son played in a tournament last month that had an 8th grader who was UTR 11. None of them talk like you.

But maybe you are actually a kid, if so it's great that you're so into tennis!
 
@cr623
FYI, as far as I know, @J011yroger is the only person on TTW that has posted a video of a serve that is a legit 120+ mph. I think he even hit a 100+ serve using a wood racquet.

A lot of other people claiming to have 100+ serves but they all somehow are unable to record and post a video. They must be sasquatch serves.
 
cr623 said:
Side-bounce. My arc over the net is 4 feet from center, followed by a step drop of about 35 degrees. My bounce upon contact is about 5 feet of kick, however, it stretches about 2 feet from where it makes contact. Good amount of topspin, but not enough sidespin. I have even tried to duplicate a slice-out-wide and get under the ball to kick it, but, just like the first, I either shank it to the sky or hit a hard slice.
Click to expand...
There is a lot of misinformation out there about how to make a kick serve bounce more sideways.

It is actually more simple than most people realize. If you think about hitting across the back of the ball, with the back of the ball as a clock face, then each type of serve has the following swingpath across the clock:

1. Pure slice: 9 to 3
2. Topspin / Slice: 8:30 to 2:30
3. “Topspin”: 8 to 2
4. American Twist (“kick”): 7:30 to 1:30

As you progress from serve types 1 to 4, the orientation of the axis of rotation the ball’s spin changes from vertical (for the pure slice) to about 45 deg from horizontal (for the kick).

1. The pure slice slides at the bounce and stays low to the ground, with the spin axis totally vertical.

2. The topspin-slice starts to grab the ground just enough to make it kick a little, but because of the curvature pre bounce, the kick direction is to the left of the line of sight of server.

3. The “Topspin” serve spin axis is horizontal enough to grab the ground a little more, so that it bounces up straight ahead with respect to the line of sight, giving it the illusion of pure topspin.

4. The American Twist finally has enough ground grab to cause the desired side kick to the right.

The human body has anatomical limitations that make it difficult for most players to generate the needed 1:30 to 7:30 clock angle swingpath with as much racquet speed as with the other types of serves.
 
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travlerajm said:
The human body has anatomical limitations that make it difficult for most players to generate the needed 1:30 to 7:30 clock angle swingpath with as much racquet speed as with the other types of serves.
Click to expand...
Which is overcome if athletic person leans and drives with the legs enough from under the toss. Strong core is also a must here to not get the motion fall apart in such a position

0V3kDnN.png
 
optic yellow said:
Strong core is a must in everything I've found.
Click to expand...
It kind of missed my attention for quite a time. I mean, I’m lean and trained myself, and have been maintaining core strength. But didn’t think about it with relation to tennis and serve particularly until recently. Some BJJ videos triggered me :-D
 
A few quick biomechanical checkpoints. Your coach has probably already addressed these, but might as well:

1. Pull your left hand down farther to the right of your stomach on the kick serve than on your other serves. This will cause the entire torso to stay more sideways, and transpose more of the kinetic energy into spin.
2. Related - exaggerate the shoulder-over-shoulder position by contact.
3. Contact the ball earlier in your motion than on a pure flat or slice serve. This effect is slight, but significant.

The kick serve is awkward because we want to use our throwing kinetic chain, but that chain naturally goes forward, and not up. It's easy to hit slow kick - just drop your elbow down low while you prepare, and swing up and out on the ball. What's hard to do is create that same contact, but with velocity. To do that, you need to drop the elbow low in space without dropping it with respect to the torso. Get a really deep trophy pose, and then yank that left arm down across your stomach, which will whip your right arm up in a cartwheel, resulting in almost vertical shoulders by contact.

Kick serves will always be slower than flat, but by your post, it seems like you can feel the fact that you can't quite recruit your throwing chain the same way on the kick that you can on the others. I think you're right to press it for perfection.

Again, that's just the basics so you probably already know it, but figured I might as well post, in case one of those somehow triggers an ahah moment.

Question: have you ever done it perfectly? Do you have those 1 or 2 reps where you go - wait, that was it. Or does it feel the same every time, and you're just trying to make it better?
 
Dragy said:
It kind of missed my attention for quite a time. I mean, I’m lean and trained myself, and have been maintaining core strength. But didn’t think about it with relation to tennis and serve particularly until recently. Some BJJ videos triggered me :-D
Click to expand...
It's what achieves a stable base and separation on the FH! I did not think about on the serve either. The functionality is slightly more abstract there as is the case with the serve in general.
 
onehandbh said:
@cr623
FYI, as far as I know, @J011yroger is the only person on TTW that has posted a video of a serve that is a legit 120+ mph. I think he even hit a 100+ serve using a wood racquet.

A lot of other people claiming to have 100+ serves but they all somehow are unable to record and post a video. They must be sasquatch serves.
Click to expand...
No I will. Trying to figure out how to on this jacked up platform. It will not let me directly insert it from upload, so I will have to do it from Youtube.
 
Happi said:
UTR 13 you are close to ATP top 1000 :unsure:
Click to expand...
ITF Junior League. I played a tourney in Orlando, was ranked 13.24, came back home and got on my bike, where I then proceeded to hit a marking spire and flipped, landing on my thumb. I have x-rays if you doubt me.
 
travlerajm said:
There is a lot of misinformation out there about how to make a kick serve bounce more sideways.

It is actually more simple than most people realize. If you think about hitting across the back of the ball, with the back of the ball as a clock face, then each type of serve has the following swingpath across the clock:

1. Pure slice: 9 to 3
2. Topspin / Slice: 8:30 to 2:30
3. “Topspin”: 8 to 2
4. American Twist (“kick”): 7:30 to 1:30

As you progress from serve types 1 to 4, the orientation of the axis of rotation the ball’s spin changes from vertical (for the pure slice) to about 45 deg from horizontal (for the kick).

1. The pure slice slides at the bounce and stays low to the ground, with the spin axis totally vertical.

2. The topspin-slice starts to grab the ground just enough to make it kick a little, but because of the curvature pre bounce, the kick direction is to the left of the line of sight of server.

3. The “Topspin” serve spin axis is horizontal enough to grab the ground a little, so that it bounces up straight ahead with respect to the line of sight, giving it the illusion of pure topspin.

4. The American Twist finally has enough ground grab to cause the desired side kick to the right.

The human body has anatomical limitations that make it difficult for most players to generate the needed 1:30 to 7:30 clock angle swingpath with as much racquet speed as with the other types of serves.
Click to expand...
Thank you, travlerajm. You are the first one to actually answer part of my question.
 
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