Played tennis on my 54th birthday - here is the VIDEO and the story

[tdk]

Hi

Turned 54 on Thursday and was lucky enough to play tennis in the afternoon. No cake needed. Here is the video from that session.

Many of you folks are probably much younger than me but for the aging part of this community this video might be of interest. I've been posting here quite a bit so you might have seen me play before but here is a brand new video with some of the things I have been working on for the past 3-4 years. I used to play as a kid and Jr but had a 20y brake. The usual story.

Anyway, 15y ago I picked up playing tennis again but didn't seem to improve much. I usually do stuff properly so I took a bunch of lessons and stuff and played 3-4 times a week but no coaching or advice from good players really seem to help, so I started to investigate in modern tennis technique on my own. One thing that was truly frustrating was that I could not play with head-light rackets. I was taping on lead on all my sticks around the hoop and it was a show I can tell you. I was at the pro-shop every other day. All the guys in the shop said its common that pro players use a lot of tweaking their gear and it seemed cool to be associated with Federer and stuff but I knew the truth. There was something totally wrong with what I was doing and I was a crap player.

Then by accident I did a finding that changed it all. It was actually really simple. How many times haven't we heard our coaches tell us to watch the ball, move forwards as we strike, improve our physical condition or simply play more matches. Don't get me wrong, that is also something we should do and benefit greatly from, but what changed it all for me was the Fore Hand LAG concept. The key to the holy grail in tennis, the ATP Fore Hand. So if you ask me what is the most important thing in a strong pro level FH I will tell you that its the LAG. Without it nothing else matters. After hitting the ball for the first five minutes with LAG I suddenly realized why I had not been able to hit with a head-light racket. If you find this to be true with your own playing keep on reading. Before, with a head heavy racket I could pounder the ball under certain conditions but I had little control and I was hitting flat. And I could not put speed on a sloppy and slow ball.

I went and took a head light racket I had in the bag but never used and for the first time in my life I was hitting consistent hard topspin balls deep in the court. The coach was speechless. That's how big the difference was. For a couple of years I was still fiddling around with rackets before finally I picked up this Dunlop Biomimetic F2 strung with Black Widow strings. Its no longer in production but I'm stocked up now. No lead tape needed. No endless tweaking.

The most simple advice I was presented with and adapted in 5 minutes was to point the racket towards the side fence before swinging at the ball instead of straight backwards commonly known as the WTA FH. When you point the racket towards the side fence the racket head will LAG behind as you swing at the ball instead of just being dragged behind. Now the head comes around in a snapping motion and slaps the ball instead of pushes it. There is a lot more going on such as swinging from low to high and releasing forwards and stuff but that is what you should be working on instead of at this point all sorts of secondary stuff.

Ok, here is the video. Thank you all for a great community.

Any feedback much appreciated.

Tom

 

[coupergear]

Hi

Turned 54 on Thursday and was lucky enough to play tennis in the afternoon. No cake needed. Here is the video from that session.

Many of you folks are probably much younger than me but for the aging part of this community this video might be of interest. I've been posting here quite a bit so you might have seen me play before but here is a brand new video with some of the things I have been working on for the past 3-4 years. I used to play as a kid and Jr but had a 20y brake. The usual story.

Anyway, 15y ago I picked up playing tennis again but didn't seem to improve much. I usually do stuff properly so I took a bunch of lessons and stuff and played 3-4 times a week but no coaching or advice from good players really seem to help, so I started to investigate in modern tennis technique on my own. One thing that was truly frustrating was that I could not play with head-light rackets. I was taping on lead on all my sticks around the hoop and it was a show I can tell you. I was at the pro-shop every other day. All the guys in the shop said its common that pro players use a lot of tweaking their gear and it seemed cool to be associated with Federer and stuff but I knew the truth. There was something totally wrong with what I was doing and I was a crap player.

Then by accident I did a finding that changed it all. It was actually really simple. How many times haven't we heard our coaches tell us to watch the ball, move forwards as we strike, improve our physical condition or simply play more matches. Don't get me wrong, that is also something we should do and benefit greatly from, but what changed it all for me was the Fore Hand LAG concept. The key to the holy grail in tennis, the ATP Fore Hand. So if you ask me what is the most important thing in a strong pro level FH I will tell you that its the LAG. Without it nothing else matters. After hitting the ball for the first five minutes with LAG I suddenly realized why I had not been able to hit with a head-light racket. If you find this to be true with your own playing keep on reading. Before, with a head heavy racket I could pounder the ball under certain conditions but I had little control and I was hitting flat. And I could not put speed on a sloppy and slow ball.

I went and took a head light racket I had in the bag but never used and for the first time in my life I was hitting consistent hard topspin balls deep in the court. The coach was speechless. That's how big the difference was. For a couple of years I was still fiddling around with rackets before finally I picked up this Dunlop Biomimetic F2 strung with Black Widow strings. Its no longer in production but I'm stocked up now. No lead tape needed. No endless tweaking.

The most simple advice I was presented with and adapted in 5 minutes was to point the racket towards the side fence before swinging at the ball instead of straight backwards commonly known as the WTA FH. When you point the racket towards the side fence the racket head will LAG behind as you swing at the ball instead of just being dragged behind. Now the head comes around in a snapping motion and slaps the ball instead of pushes it. There is a lot more going on such as swinging from low to high and releasing forwards and stuff but that is what you should be working on instead of at this point all sorts of secondary stuff.

Ok, here is the video. Thank you all for a great community.

Any feedback much appreciated.

Tom

Excellent story.

Nice hitting. Still looks a little stiff and arming the ball. like you're still thinking about the stroke a lot, which is natural. The next step is loosening that arm motion and grip and being a lot more fluid with it.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

 

[heninfan99]

Congrats brah. I watched the first 20 seconds. Move your feet is my feedback.

 

[LeeD]

I turned 54 in 2004..
Couple months ago, I played a set with Matt Lin (22), VitaminL (25), and his bud (26). I'm a bad 4.0. Matt almost made the UCLA varsity team, but missed. VitaminL and his bud were close to making the UC Davis team but didn't. I think I was the slowest dude on court. 2 year's ago now, I played the USTA National 12 Girl's No. 54, and got to 4-4 taking well over an hour.

 

[TCF]

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[GuyClinch]

Nice hitting. Still looks a little stiff and arming the ball. like you're still thinking about the stroke a lot, which is natural. The next step is loosening that arm motion and grip and being a lot more fluid with it.

This. Pretty solid hitting so I don't want to bash much.. But I have a theory about this I have been thinking about. I notice LOTS of rec players hit like this - kinda stiff. And I think it's because of the stroke start. They hold it up high like a pro does but they use their arm to move into position and then pull and usually start stroke with arm.. What you should do IMHO is allow your arm to relax and drop while also turning your hips.. The idea here is to actually use gravity and the weight of the racquet and use that stored energy.. as well as hip rotation to power your shot..

This is very apparent in the one hand backhand which can be very pendulum like - and that's partly why IMHO a 1HBH can look so graceful. 1HBH has a lot of power from stored energy but the hip rotation stops earlier..

This will also result in a longer more fluid stroke. Whats happening now - is that racquet is a kind of 'set up' part and then the stroke..

 

[onehandbh]

Looking stiff may be from actually being stiff and less flexible and being too tense.

I see a lot of rec players focus on the arm and hand in the stroke instead of footwork and initiating the swing from the legs and core after a full unit turn -- myself included.

 

[5263]

Hi

Turned 54 on Thursday and was lucky enough to play tennis in the afternoon. No cake needed. Here is the video from that session.

The most simple advice I was presented with and adapted in 5 minutes was to point the racket towards the side fence before swinging at the ball instead of straight backwards commonly known as the WTA FH. When you point the racket towards the side fence the racket head will LAG behind as you swing at the ball instead of just being dragged behind. Now the head comes around in a snapping motion and slaps the ball instead of pushes it. There is a lot more going on such as swinging from low to high and releasing forwards and stuff but that is what you should be working on instead of at this point all sorts of secondary stuff.

Any feedback much appreciated.
Tom

Looking good at 54 my friend, way to go! I was expecting you to be all wristy with your shots after the "slap the ball" comment, but no, you hold the lag nicely and start the gentle release with good timing on the Fh. I would suggest you work to do the same a bit more with your Bh though. You start with a good lag to drag the racket, but then use the wrist to force the head around in stead of just changing the direction of your pull as you do so well on the Fh side. Try to drag the hand near the contact, then continue the pull, but more across to accel and bring the strings to the ball (no wrist push required)....see what you think.
Nice hitting and way to stay with it.

 

[KingBugsy]

Overall, looks good! You can loosen your right arm a bit more, as others have noted, it is a bit stiff at times. Also, learn to split step on your opponents contact. You are standing flat footed.

 

[NLBwell]

The idea here is to actually use gravity and the weight of the racquet and use that stored energy.. as well as hip rotation to power your shot.

This is what kids learn as long as they aren't playing with rackets that are too light for them. (Otherwise, they swat at the ball and never learn good strokes.)

 

[LeeD]

Rankings in G12s are meaningless after the top 5 or so. The top 2-3 girls at any given time are scary good, then it drops like a rock. So being 54th in G12s or 354th means little, its all whose parents can chase points the most.

If you played vs a top 2-3 G12, you would realize they are in another stratosphere than one ranked 54th.

NorCal Girl's 12 No. 2. They don't travel to every point scoring tourney, so their National points are less than many of her peers. As you know, there are National Point tourneys 9 months of the year, all over the USA.

 

[GuyClinch]

Looking stiff may be from actually being stiff and less flexible and being too tense.

Sure. but not here IMHO. Every player has the flexibility to let the racquet drop and use a smoother more fluid swing..

I see a lot of rec players focus on the arm and hand in the stroke instead of footwork and initiating the swing from the legs and core after a full unit turn -- myself included.

Agree but I think there is a reason for this. I don' think its really being too tense. OP just hasn't learned the correct feeling. You can test it out pretty quickly..

1) Turn sideways hold the racquet at a 5 or 6 clock position(racquet back position) - and swing the racquet at the ball without moving your hips (or swaying your body) and starting the racquet low (with racquet face in line with imaginary ball) - this is only arm.
2) Turn sideways - hold the racquet at the same 5 or 6 position (aka racquet back position with racquet head up) and just let the arm drop - go limp. Racquet will still go forward a bit and probably hit you in the side..
3) Turn sideways in the high racquet position of (from step 2) and this time turn your hips and sway your body some - this is a the feeling of a better smoother forehand.

It's pretty easy to combine the hip turn with the high start. Its not so easy to combine a hip turn with a very low start - you will want to use your arm to get going. Now OP has a high enough start - but he doesn't really use the gravity like in step 2. He just kind of starts with his arm and adds his hips. If you use this style alot of your forehands are 'arm - then some hips'.. Whereas the pro forehand is going to be some gravity and some hips - and some arm there at the end.. So it can look quite similiar racquet path wise - but the actual feel of the stroke is quite different. The people that have the right feel IMHO tend to have smoother longer 'effortless' looking stroke. To them it feels like the arm is only providing 'guidance' and the stroke is power via hips and gravity..

It took me a while to get this. Its hard to get teh 'arm' out of your stroke if you are a rec play. We become very used to starting our stroke via arm. Some people even power thorugh it. This is why again the 'most beautiful' stroke in tennis the OHBH frequently looks so ugly for rec players. With the OHBH you can start with the racquet low and back and just arm it through. You can even not use your hips. This is a OHBH - but its also an ugly and low powered shot.

Again tons of people tell you to use your 'body' and not your 'arm' this is sensible 100%. But how do you actually do this. That's what I was trying to explain above..

I think that good fundamentals in tennis are are bit like so called 'common sense' aka not that common. Additionally its still tough. You have to contact the ball out in front (ideally with your arm extended). You need to be prepared early enough to perform this relaxed swing - so getting the racquet into that 'set to launch' position is key..

 

[coupergear]

This. Pretty solid hitting so I don't want to bash much.. But I have a theory about this I have been thinking about. I notice LOTS of rec players hit like this - kinda stiff. And I think it's because of the stroke start. They hold it up high like a pro does but they use their arm to move into position and then pull and usually start stroke with arm.. What you should do IMHO is allow your arm to relax and drop while also turning your hips.. The idea here is to actually use gravity and the weight of the racquet and use that stored energy.. as well as hip rotation to power your shot..

This is very apparent in the one hand backhand which can be very pendulum like - and that's partly why IMHO a 1HBH can look so graceful. 1HBH has a lot of power from stored energy but the hip rotation stops earlier..

This will also result in a longer more fluid stroke. Whats happening now - is that racquet is a kind of 'set up' part and then the stroke..

Great post agree with the 1hbh. Funny I can get that natural drop and fluidity on my 1hbh.... Tougher on forehand even though consider fh stronger wing

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

 

[TCF]

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[weelie]

Hi

Turned 54 on Thursday and was lucky enough to play tennis in the afternoon. No cake needed. Here is the video from that session.

Any feedback much appreciated.

Tom

Happy belated Birthday, Tom! No comment on your stroke, really. It does look a bit stiff, like people said, ...but I think you are much better than me, so I'd rather ask to experience it first hand, instead make any remarks based on the video... So when could we have a practice session together?

 

[LeeD]

Good post. This is why the rankings are a joke. There are usually 2-3 girls at the top who are awesome, followed by a bunch who just chase points.

Mixed in here and there are amazing players like the one you describe, who choose not to chase points for various reasons.

Florida is a tough section. But I look through the top 100 and just chuckle. I know many of the players and the ranking order is almost completely out of whack compared to how skilled the players actually are.

Yeah, it's hard to tell how good a junior really is.
I"m a bad 4.0, decent enough strokes, but no wheels, but don't play "conventional" against juniors or kids. Like to mix it up, slice and loopy top, wide serves and heaters up the body. And lefty.
I think this girl would be solid 4.5 men's level if she can concentrate an entire set. However, being as she does have trouble doing that, probably men's 4.0 dead center, but her groundies, serves, and volleys actually better than most solid 4.0 men's. Just hard for a junior to put it together mentally, especially one at age 13-14.
All my peer 4.0's lose badly to her, them not knowing how to play against juniors or girls. I have tons of experience playing against top level women, so can sacrifice a point or two just to take them out of their game.

 

[tdk]

Happy belated Birthday, Tom! No comment on your stroke, really. It does look a bit stiff, like people said, ...but I think you are much better than me, so I'd rather ask to experience it first hand, instead make any remarks based on the video... So when could we have a practice session together?

I play in Tapiola late in the evening usually. I'll drop you a PM....

 

[Limpinhitter]

Hi

Turned 54 on Thursday and was lucky enough to play tennis in the afternoon. No cake needed. Here is the video from that session.

Many of you folks are probably much younger than me but for the aging part of this community this video might be of interest. I've been posting here quite a bit so you might have seen me play before but here is a brand new video with some of the things I have been working on for the past 3-4 years. I used to play as a kid and Jr but had a 20y brake. The usual story.

Anyway, 15y ago I picked up playing tennis again but didn't seem to improve much. I usually do stuff properly so I took a bunch of lessons and stuff and played 3-4 times a week but no coaching or advice from good players really seem to help, so I started to investigate in modern tennis technique on my own. One thing that was truly frustrating was that I could not play with head-light rackets. I was taping on lead on all my sticks around the hoop and it was a show I can tell you. I was at the pro-shop every other day. All the guys in the shop said its common that pro players use a lot of tweaking their gear and it seemed cool to be associated with Federer and stuff but I knew the truth. There was something totally wrong with what I was doing and I was a crap player.

Then by accident I did a finding that changed it all. It was actually really simple. How many times haven't we heard our coaches tell us to watch the ball, move forwards as we strike, improve our physical condition or simply play more matches. Don't get me wrong, that is also something we should do and benefit greatly from, but what changed it all for me was the Fore Hand LAG concept. The key to the holy grail in tennis, the ATP Fore Hand. So if you ask me what is the most important thing in a strong pro level FH I will tell you that its the LAG. Without it nothing else matters. After hitting the ball for the first five minutes with LAG I suddenly realized why I had not been able to hit with a head-light racket. If you find this to be true with your own playing keep on reading. Before, with a head heavy racket I could pounder the ball under certain conditions but I had little control and I was hitting flat. And I could not put speed on a sloppy and slow ball.

I went and took a head light racket I had in the bag but never used and for the first time in my life I was hitting consistent hard topspin balls deep in the court. The coach was speechless. That's how big the difference was. For a couple of years I was still fiddling around with rackets before finally I picked up this Dunlop Biomimetic F2 strung with Black Widow strings. Its no longer in production but I'm stocked up now. No lead tape needed. No endless tweaking.

The most simple advice I was presented with and adapted in 5 minutes was to point the racket towards the side fence before swinging at the ball instead of straight backwards commonly known as the WTA FH. When you point the racket towards the side fence the racket head will LAG behind as you swing at the ball instead of just being dragged behind. Now the head comes around in a snapping motion and slaps the ball instead of pushes it. There is a lot more going on such as swinging from low to high and releasing forwards and stuff but that is what you should be working on instead of at this point all sorts of secondary stuff.

Ok, here is the video. Thank you all for a great community.

Any feedback much appreciated.

Tom

You said: "The most simple advice I was presented with and adapted in 5 minutes was to point the racket towards the side fence before swinging at the ball instead of straight backwards commonly known as the WTA FH. When you point the racket towards the side fence the racket head will LAG behind as you swing at the ball instead of just being dragged behind."

This is a correct statement. But, this is not what you are doing. In most examples, you are actively laying your racquet head back before you initiate your forward swing, and then dragging the racquet head through contact. Further, your swing is generated primarily by hinging from the shoulder - an arm swing. Rather it should be generated primarily by upper body rotation and arm rotation ("The Flip"), simultaneously. There should be only minimal hinging from the shoulder. What you are calling lag is merely laying your wrist back. How your wrist becomes laid back makes a big difference. You are doing it actively and prematurely.

To assure that you and I are on the same page, when you are at the very back of your back swing and you are set up, loaded up, and ready to initiate your forward swing, it is the TOP of the racquet (not the face), that should be pointing to the right side fence with your arm pointing to 5:00 O'Clock (from above), no further back than that. With your grip, the face should be facing down more or less. In an open stance (ideally 45 degrees), with your weight primarily on your right leg, you should initiate the forward swing by FIRST rotating your right hip forward, which pulls your torso, which pulls your shoulders, which pulls your arm and THEN causes your arm to rotate back and the racquet to "flip" back and down below the level of the oncoming ball (external shoulder rotation and forearm supination). This chain of events is commonly called a kinetic chain. As your upper body continues to rotate, the arm then rapidly rotates forward (internal shoulder rotation and forearm pronation), accelerating to contact, and continues to rotate after contact finishing with the elbow pointing to the target and the racquet head down near the left hip, more or less depending on the height of the ball at contact.

In these videos, in addition to what I've described, notice that Federer's upper body rotation is almost 180 degrees, starting with his chest facing about 3:00 O'Clock and finishing with his chest facing almost to 9:00 O'Clock. You are only rotating to about 12:00 O'Clock.

 

[TCF]

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[Curious]

to point the racket towards the side fence before swinging at the ball instead of straight backwards commonly known as the WTA FH. When you point the racket towards the side fence the racket head will LAG behind as you swing at the ball instead of just being dragged behind."

This is a correct statement.

One of the deadliest forehands in ATP ( Dominic Thiem) does not conform to this description. Except for the initial part of his backswing which is quite unique, it looks very much like a WTA forehand.

 

[Limpinhitter]

One of the deadliest forehands in ATP ( Dominic Thiem) does not conform to this description. Except for the initial part of his backswing which is quite unique, it looks very much like a WTA forehand.

It's funny that two people can look at the same forehand and see two different things. In my view, Thiem's forehand conforms to the most important part that distinguishes an ATP forehand, the flip - Thiem's racquet drop occurs as a result of his upper body rotation. It is similar to Djokovic's forehand.

 

[Curious]

It is similar to Djokovic's forehand.

and also to Sharapova's

 

[Curious]

It's funny that two people can look at the same forehand and see two different things

It's getting even funnier now as I don't see any flip in Thiem's forehand! Yes, I can see the lag but as we discussed many times before this is not the same as a flip. All WTA forehands have the lag but not the flip.

 

[LeeD]

Is she a flatter hitter like many of the top girls?

Flattish side/underspin 1hbh, very Serena like forehand topspin, lots of ball speed.

 

[TCF]

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[GuyClinch]

It's funny that two people can look at the same forehand and see two different things. In my view, Thiem's forehand conforms to the most important part that distinguishes an ATP forehand, the flip - Thiem's racquet drop occurs as a result of his upper body rotation. It is similar to Djokovic's forehand.

Thiem has a big loop.. certainly gravity is playing a big part in his racquet drop - on both the forehand and backhand.. Moving the hip around and forward naturally moves the racquet in a circular manner - as your shoulders is connected to the rest of your body..(even if there is considerable lag).

What you want to look for - IMHO is the movement of his back hip if you notice the racquet is dropping down before the back hip starts to rotate forward - again you can see this on both shots - but of course its more pronounced on the forehand which has a lot more hip rotation..

Now if you want to say acceleration from his hips (aka turning those hips) causes the flip - sure. But the racquet drop....I don't see it.

The big difference between the so called ATP and WTA forehands IMHO is just the use of the wrist. In a pure WTA forehand the wrist is cocked back - maximizing leverage for the whole swing (aka Hewitt) whereas for the ATP the wrist is allowed to flex back because of racquet head speed. Muck up the lines even more is that you can kinda split the difference. The wrist is bent some - but not fully..

I continue to think that this whole WTA/ATP thing is a bit of mistake the fundamentals - power via gravity and hip (aka rotation) are fairly similar..

 

[Dolgopolov85]

I would really like to see a video shot from across the other side of the court, so that we don't have see a profile angle. I see your right foot pivoting as you complete the shot. IME that does not happen unless you have rotated your hips. In other words, I am not sure you are arming the ball all that much at all and that the profile view makes you look more open stance than you are. But this is just a hunch and a view from either right behind or right in front of you would make the correct position much clearer. Also preferably a view where the weight of shot is more evident.

 

[tdk]

Excellent story.

Nice hitting. Still looks a little stiff and arming the ball. like you're still thinking about the stroke a lot, which is natural. The next step is loosening that arm motion and grip and being a lot more fluid with it.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Thanks. Yes, I'm still thinking of how to hit that ball. Still, there is probably no shortcut so I just need to be playing more.

 

[tdk]

This. Pretty solid hitting so I don't want to bash much.. But I have a theory about this I have been thinking about. I notice LOTS of rec players hit like this - kinda stiff. And I think it's because of the stroke start. They hold it up high like a pro does but they use their arm to move into position and then pull and usually start stroke with arm.. What you should do IMHO is allow your arm to relax and drop while also turning your hips.. The idea here is to actually use gravity and the weight of the racquet and use that stored energy.. as well as hip rotation to power your shot..

This is very apparent in the one hand backhand which can be very pendulum like - and that's partly why IMHO a 1HBH can look so graceful. 1HBH has a lot of power from stored energy but the hip rotation stops earlier..

This will also result in a longer more fluid stroke. Whats happening now - is that racquet is a kind of 'set up' part and then the stroke..

Thanks for the great video. Hip rotation is indeed important but as you say, on the 1HBH you cannot rotate a whole lot. Would that be mainly arm?

 

[GuyClinch]

Thanks for the great video. Hip rotation is indeed important but as you say, on the 1HBH you cannot rotate a whole lot. Would that be mainly arm?

No, you can experiment quickly and test this out. Grab a racquet - stand sideways hold it up high like a fed starting position - and allow it to drop. Your racquet will drop and swing up (a little) like a pendulum. Now when you do this you can sway your body - or you can step into the shot and you can allow your hips to such that you are moving from a closed position (your back pointing somewhat towards the net) to a neutral position. All of things will add power to your OHBH without needing to feel like you are using your 'arm'. (especially in the beginning of the stroke).

This is why the OHBH is the most elegant shot - and feels so effortless. You can just allow the racquet to glide through via gravity and use of your body - so it 'feels' effortless. Its not really effortless of course - as you have stored potential energy and augmented it with use or your body. But because its not a very hard 'arm' movement it feels 'easy'.

 

[weelie]

I play in Tapiola late in the evening usually. I'll drop you a PM....

I sent you one, wonder if you got it?

 

[TennisCJC]

I skipped around the video. You seem to hit better toward the end - maybe warmed up. I thought one of the FHs later was actually very good. Small prep, flowing take back, and let the racket head lag as you start forward swing with a nice release into WW follow-thru. Maybe try relaxing a bit and also, I use the 2 hands on the throat approach in my prep. Agassi and Federer take the racket back with 2 hands on the racket. On slow balls, they will actually pause there. Then the when they start the swing they will separate and go into the take back. It is hard to see at ATP pace because they likely isn't much if any pause on most balls due to fast pace.

 

[tdk]

You said: "The most simple advice I was presented with and adapted in 5 minutes was to point the racket towards the side fence before swinging at the ball instead of straight backwards commonly known as the WTA FH. When you point the racket towards the side fence the racket head will LAG behind as you swing at the ball instead of just being dragged behind."

This is a correct statement. But, this is not what you are doing. In most examples, you are actively laying your racquet head back before you initiate your forward swing, and then dragging the racquet head through contact. Further, your swing is generated primarily by hinging from the shoulder - an arm swing. Rather it should be generated primarily by upper body rotation and arm rotation ("The Flip"), simultaneously. There should be only minimal hinging from the shoulder. What you are calling lag is merely laying your wrist back. How your wrist becomes laid back makes a big difference. You are doing it actively and prematurely.

Thank you very much for your feedback. I'm all ears. You are perfectly correct. There is something fishy going on with my takeback and the flip. To take a closer look, hare is a comparison between me and Federer in that video you linked.

Please brake it down and tell me what to do?

To assure that you and I are on the same page, when you are at the very back of your back swing and you are set up, loaded up, and ready to initiate your forward swing, it is the TOP of the racquet (not the face), that should be pointing to the right side fence with your arm pointing to 5:00 O'Clock (from above), no further back than that. With your grip, the face should be facing down more or less. In an open stance (ideally 45 degrees), with your weight primarily on your right leg, you should initiate the forward swing by FIRST rotating your right hip forward, which pulls your torso, which pulls your shoulders, which pulls your arm and THEN causes your arm to rotate back and the racquet to "flip" back and down below the level of the oncoming ball (external shoulder rotation and forearm supination). This chain of events is commonly called a kinetic chain. As your upper body continues to rotate, the arm then rapidly rotates forward (internal shoulder rotation and forearm pronation), accelerating to contact, and continues to rotate after contact finishing with the elbow pointing to the target and the racquet head down near the left hip, more or less depending on the height of the ball at contact.

Yes, I'm familiar with the kinetic chain. That's also what I'm trying to do. I'm a little confused regarding what the TOP and FACE are on a tennis racket. Could you explain a bit closer.

In these videos, in addition to what I've described, notice that Federer's upper body rotation is almost 180 degrees, starting with his chest facing about 3:00 O'Clock and finishing with his chest facing almost to 9:00 O'Clock. You are only rotating to about 12:00 O'Clock.

Here is where I disagree with my coach a bit. He has me end chest facing the net. Roger clearly rotates all the way around.

So is the biggest difference between my and rogers FH the FLIP?

 

[tdk]

One of the deadliest forehands in ATP ( Dominic Thiem) does not conform to this description. Except for the initial part of his backswing which is quite unique, it looks very much like a WTA forehand.

Great FH

 

[sureshs]

54 is old, man. I am just 51.

 

[Limpinhitter]

Thank you very much for your feedback. I'm all ears. You are perfectly correct. There is something fishy going on with my takeback and the flip. To take a closer look, hare is a comparison between me and Federer in that video you linked.

Please brake it down and tell me what to do?

Yes, I'm familiar with the kinetic chain. That's also what I'm trying to do. I'm a little confused regarding what the TOP and FACE are on a tennis racket. Could you explain a bit closer.


Here is where I disagree with my coach a bit. He has me end chest facing the net. Roger clearly rotates all the way around.

So is the biggest difference between my and rogers FH the FLIP?

Sometimes a picture is worth 1000 words.

In this set-up position, at the back of his backswing, the top of Fed's racquet is pointing to the right side fence, the face of Fed's racquet is facing down, his hand is pointing to about 5:00 O'Clock (from above), and he is in an open stance with his weight loaded up on his right leg. In this abbreviated backswing, the initiation of the forward swing with hip rotation will have the greatest effect on rotation of the arm - the flip. If you overswing, there is a disconnect between upper body rotation and the flip.

From here, Fed will initiate his forward swing, rotating his hips by driving his right hip forward which will initiate the kinetic chain pulling his torso, which pulls his shoulders, which pulls his arm causing his arm to supinate and the racquet head to drop back and down, and then pronate causing the racquet head to snap back forward to contact. That rapid supination/pronation is the flip.

You are doing none of this. Further, you are supinating your arm prematurely and purposely, rather than letting it happen as a natural result of the kinetic chain and a relaxed arm and grip.

Your first task is to get into this set up position. From there, if you initiate your forward swing with hip rotation and you maintain a loose, relaxed arm and grip, especially at contact, the rest of it is almost self executing.

 

[tdk]

Sometimes a picture is worth 1000 words.

In this set-up position, at the back of his backswing, the top of Fed's racquet is pointing to the right side fence, the face of Fed's racquet is facing down, his hand is pointing to about 5:00 O'Clock (from above), and he is in an open stance with his weight loaded up on his right leg. In this abbreviated backswing, the initiation of the forward swing with hip rotation will have the greatest effect on rotation of the arm - the flip. If you overswing, there is a disconnect between upper body rotation and the flip.

From here, Fed will initiate his forward swing, rotating his hips by driving his right hip forward which will initiate the kinetic chain pulling his torso, which pulls his shoulders, which pulls his arm causing his arm to supinate and the racquet head to drop back and down, and then pronate causing the racquet head to snap back forward to contact. That rapid supination/pronation is the flip.

You are doing none of this. Further, you are supinating your arm prematurely and purposely, rather than letting it happen as a natural result of the kinetic chain and a relaxed arm and grip.

Your first task is to get into this set up position. From there, if you initiate your forward swing with hip rotation and you maintain a loose, relaxed arm and grip, especially at contact, the rest of it is almost self executing.

This discussion is taking me exactly where I wanted to go. Thank you. Here are my thoughts:

The hip drive and the flip are the same move. They take place simultaneously. As the hips turn, the racket flips from 5 o'clock face down to 6 o'clock face side fence. A bad cue is "turning the door knob" since its the opposite way around. Its the door knob that turns your wrist. Right? The flip is not a muscle movement. This could be the trick to make my wrist more relaxed. Now I'm muscling the wrist around.

As the racket head flips it also drops down lower making it possible to strike from low to high. The next cue would be to strike at the ball but cap first and make ball contact in front of the body.

I will keep you posted.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

No, you can experiment quickly and test this out. Grab a racquet - stand sideways hold it up high like a fed starting position - and allow it to drop. Your racquet will drop and swing up (a little) like a pendulum. Now when you do this you can sway your body - or you can step into the shot and you can allow your hips to such that you are moving from a closed position (your back pointing somewhat towards the net) to a neutral position. All of things will add power to your OHBH without needing to feel like you are using your 'arm'. (especially in the beginning of the stroke).

This is why the OHBH is the most elegant shot - and feels so effortless. You can just allow the racquet to glide through via gravity and use of your body - so it 'feels' effortless. Its not really effortless of course - as you have stored potential energy and augmented it with use or your body. But because its not a very hard 'arm' movement it feels 'easy'.

I don't normally hit a 1hbh, but learned it to be able to teach it...
One cue I found useful (found when comparing how I hit a (good) righty 1hbh, vs. a (bad) lefty 1hbh)
* when i hit righty: i let my hips initiate initiate the swing, i can feel pressure between my right pec and right bicep, before it releases
* when i hit lefty: i found myself just arming the ball (swing from the shoulder) vs. letting my hips initiate the swing... sometimes i'd lead with my elbow, or pull back (like a single arm seated row) too much in an attempt to put more oomph into the shot.

 

[sureshs]

I don't normally hit a 1hbh, but learned it to be able to teach it...
One queue I found useful (found when comparing how I hit a (good) righty 1hbh, vs. a (bad) lefty 1hbh)
* when i hit righty: i let my hips initiate initiate the swing, i can feel pressure between my right pec and right bicep, before it releases
* when i hit lefty: i found myself just arming the ball (swing from the shoulder) vs. letting my hips initiate the swing... sometimes i'd lead with my elbow, or pull back (like a single arm seated row) too much in an attempt to put more oomph into the shot.

It is cue

 

[Deleted member 23235]

It is cue

lol thx. too much programming on my brain (fifo, lifo, etc..)

 

[ByeByePoly]

Hi

Turned 54 on Thursday and was lucky enough to play tennis in the afternoon. No cake needed. Here is the video from that session.

Many of you folks are probably much younger than me but for the aging part of this community this video might be of interest. I've been posting here quite a bit so you might have seen me play before but here is a brand new video with some of the things I have been working on for the past 3-4 years. I used to play as a kid and Jr but had a 20y brake. The usual story.

Anyway, 15y ago I picked up playing tennis again but didn't seem to improve much. I usually do stuff properly so I took a bunch of lessons and stuff and played 3-4 times a week but no coaching or advice from good players really seem to help, so I started to investigate in modern tennis technique on my own. One thing that was truly frustrating was that I could not play with head-light rackets. I was taping on lead on all my sticks around the hoop and it was a show I can tell you. I was at the pro-shop every other day. All the guys in the shop said its common that pro players use a lot of tweaking their gear and it seemed cool to be associated with Federer and stuff but I knew the truth. There was something totally wrong with what I was doing and I was a crap player.

Then by accident I did a finding that changed it all. It was actually really simple. How many times haven't we heard our coaches tell us to watch the ball, move forwards as we strike, improve our physical condition or simply play more matches. Don't get me wrong, that is also something we should do and benefit greatly from, but what changed it all for me was the Fore Hand LAG concept. The key to the holy grail in tennis, the ATP Fore Hand. So if you ask me what is the most important thing in a strong pro level FH I will tell you that its the LAG. Without it nothing else matters. After hitting the ball for the first five minutes with LAG I suddenly realized why I had not been able to hit with a head-light racket. If you find this to be true with your own playing keep on reading. Before, with a head heavy racket I could pounder the ball under certain conditions but I had little control and I was hitting flat. And I could not put speed on a sloppy and slow ball.

I went and took a head light racket I had in the bag but never used and for the first time in my life I was hitting consistent hard topspin balls deep in the court. The coach was speechless. That's how big the difference was. For a couple of years I was still fiddling around with rackets before finally I picked up this Dunlop Biomimetic F2 strung with Black Widow strings. Its no longer in production but I'm stocked up now. No lead tape needed. No endless tweaking.

The most simple advice I was presented with and adapted in 5 minutes was to point the racket towards the side fence before swinging at the ball instead of straight backwards commonly known as the WTA FH. When you point the racket towards the side fence the racket head will LAG behind as you swing at the ball instead of just being dragged behind. Now the head comes around in a snapping motion and slaps the ball instead of pushes it. There is a lot more going on such as swinging from low to high and releasing forwards and stuff but that is what you should be working on instead of at this point all sorts of secondary stuff.

Ok, here is the video. Thank you all for a great community.

Any feedback much appreciated.

Tom

Hello and happy 54th. Before I talk about "strokes", I would remind you to make sure you actually play tennis with those 54 years old legs along with the quest for "perfection". I say this because 4 years ago at your age, I was playing some very good singles. I was moving really great for a 54 year old. Judging by me legs, your strokes may be better in 4 years, but your legs will most definitely NOT be better (or at least not as fast).

Your strokes look good ... all you need to enjoy your game into geezer tennis. However you sound like me ... open to technical improvement along the way, even late in the game. I switched to the ... what are we calling it ... ATP FH four years ago. I say switched ... that is just a claim until you watch yourself on video. I have been on a quest for a 2hbh for the last year, and forgot about any progress on the FH side. I recently videoed my 2hbh, and then this morning before going to hit the ball machine I remembered we also videoed a short clip of me hitting FHs. You have probably discovered this ... you often think you are doing one thing, but that isn't what your body and arms are actually doing. I couldn't believe the head of my racquet went straight back (to back fence ... wasn't trying to do that) ... and worse, up high near my head. No way I am playing that video for these "guys" on this thread. Maybe after some work.

Before I forget ... this is my biggest problem with the FH (just assume I mean the ATP FH when I type FH). It's the timing of initiating the loop ... i.e. the release point from the second hand on the throat of the racquet. The initial ready position is no problem ... you can be way early if you want. The main timing problem is the loop from the release of the second hand off the racquet to ball contact is significant. I don't have anything close to this issue with the 2hbh ... I can shoulder turn and grip to the left pocket a bit early and just hold until pulling the trigger. Not so with that FH loop ... much harder to work out the timing. Have you found that to be the case also? Perhaps others here have a good teaching aid to work that out until muscle memory records it. My technique (crude) is to start the loop (2nd hand release) about the time the ball bounces. That helped ... but not perfect. This little swing thought worked for me learning the 2hbh ... as long as my shoulders were turned and grip in pocket position, I had enough time.

OK.. I have read the comments here, and have thought about them in terms of what I feel, or think is going on with the FH. The following are my initial thoughts ... and some differ with the advice here. The guys giving the advice seem to be more versed on what's actually going on... so these are just my opinions of someone who is trying to perfect the FH like you.

1) First ... a comment particular to your swing (and probably mine if I watch some more video). I don't think there is just one pro ATP FH. At the end of this post, I am going to post a video of Ferrer and Murray" FHs. Their racquet head is pointed straight back to the back fence. I question the entire "racquet head pointing to side fence" thing, unless I'm not understanding what is being said. We all try and copy Federer's FH (hell ... I have his slow motion FH video linked on my phone ), and he does seem to be more "side fence" pointed... but maybe 5 o'clock side fence pointed... and sometimes further back. So when I watch your swing.. and look at Ferrer's FH ... I say you are fine. I think what I don't see pros do (and I need to watch more video) ... is take that slight pause you take when your racquet is fully back. Watch Ferrer ... his racquet keeps moving through the back position ... no pause. I guess the loop ... flatter like Ferrer's ... or rounder like Federer's ... all share the trait of NO PAUSE.

2) I have had the exact same thought about gravity being your friend and assistant in the swing. Seriously ... never heard anyone say that before ... but I have been hitting FHs on the ball machine, thinking how smooth Federer looks... and having the thought... let the weight of the racquet start this loop. But I have to say I really don't think this is going on ... and if so, very little. I have watched so much Federer slow motion FH video... I should be able to play it back from my memory. One thing that struck me one day was ... this really isn't a loop ... like a circle or an oval. Watch Federer's racquet drop into the slot, and then it moves into a straight line (sometimes low to high) to contact. To me, it should be called dropping the racquet to the track ... and then whip the racquet along that track to ball contact. I learned this lesson the hard way. I was out there trying to learn to hit the new FH, wondering why I was having such a hard time working out the bottom of the loop (circle) and then making contact. It's not a loop ... maybe I just think I heard that term. Oh yeah ... on the gravity helping thing. Watch Federer in slow motion as the racquet gets to the point where it is slung forward. If we really were talking about a pendulum, then of course gravity would be helping. But this is a change of direction from the drop to the track ... almost a split-second stop. Others can comment ... but that's what I see. You are getting the benefit of not muscling the drop ... and that's probably the comment about kids being able to handle the weight of a heavier racquet (from prep to gravity drop of racquet).

So here are Ferrer and Murray ... straight back to the fence. I think the 1) constant motion from second hand release of the racquet to contact ... 2) lag via leading buttcap, supination, pronation 3) hip rotation ... yada yada yada (btw ... thought you may have nailed with "The hip drive and the flip are the same move") ... are common staples among the pros.

In a different reality, I would meet you for a hit and some beer ... and we could work on that FH perfection. Hell... with enough beer ... we really wouldn't care.

Good hitting ... good video ... keep it up.

 

[ByeByePoly]

lol thx. too much programming on my brain (fifo, lifo, etc..)

you are a programmer ... no wonder you need mini-tennis.

 

[Limpinhitter]

Hello and happy 54th. Before I talk about "strokes", I would remind you to make sure you actually play tennis with those 54 years old legs along with the quest for "perfection". I say this because 4 years ago at your age, I was playing some very good singles. I was moving really great for a 54 year old. Judging by me legs, your strokes may be better in 4 years, but your legs will most definitely NOT be better (or at least not as fast).

Your strokes look good ... all you need to enjoy your game into geezer tennis. However you sound like me ... open to technical improvement along the way, even late in the game. I switched to the ... what are we calling it ... ATP FH four years ago. I say switched ... that is just a claim until you watch yourself on video. I have been on a quest for a 2hbh for the last year, and forgot about any progress on the FH side. I recently videoed my 2hbh, and then this morning before going to hit the ball machine I remembered we also videoed a short clip of me hitting FHs. You have probably discovered this ... you often think you are doing one thing, but that isn't what your body and arms are actually doing. I couldn't believe the head of my racquet went straight back (to back fence ... wasn't trying to do that) ... and worse, up high near my head. No way I am playing that video for these "guys" on this thread. Maybe after some work.

Before I forget ... this is my biggest problem with the FH (just assume I mean the ATP FH when I type FH). It's the timing of initiating the loop ... i.e. the release point from the second hand on the throat of the racquet. The initial ready position is no problem ... you can be way early if you want. The main timing problem is the loop from the release of the second hand off the racquet to ball contact is significant. I don't have anything close to this issue with the 2hbh ... I can shoulder turn and grip to the left pocket a bit early and just hold until pulling the trigger. Not so with that FH loop ... much harder to work out the timing. Have you found that to be the case also? Perhaps others here have a good teaching aid to work that out until muscle memory records it. My technique (crude) is to start the loop (2nd hand release) about the time the ball bounces. That helped ... but not perfect. This little swing thought worked for me learning the 2hbh ... as long as my shoulders were turned and grip in pocket position, I had enough time.

OK.. I have read the comments here, and have thought about them in terms of what I feel, or think is going on with the FH. The following are my initial thoughts ... and some differ with the advice here. The guys giving the advice seem to be more versed on what's actually going on... so these are just my opinions of someone who is trying to perfect the FH like you.

1) First ... a comment particular to your swing (and probably mine if I watch some more video). I don't think there is just one pro ATP FH. At the end of this post, I am going to post a video of Ferrer and Murray" FHs. Their racquet head is pointed straight back to the back fence. I question the entire "racquet head pointing to side fence" thing, unless I'm not understanding what is being said. We all try and copy Federer's FH (hell ... I have his slow motion FH video linked on my phone ), and he does seem to be more "side fence" pointed... but maybe 5 o'clock side fence pointed... and sometimes further back. So when I watch your swing.. and look at Ferrer's FH ... I say you are fine. I think what I don't see pros do (and I need to watch more video) ... is take that slight pause you take when your racquet is fully back. Watch Ferrer ... his racquet keeps moving through the back position ... no pause. I guess the loop ... flatter like Ferrer's ... or rounder like Federer's ... all share the trait of NO PAUSE.

2) I have had the exact same thought about gravity being your friend and assistant in the swing. Seriously ... never heard anyone say that before ... but I have been hitting FHs on the ball machine, thinking how smooth Federer looks... and having the thought... let the weight of the racquet start this loop. But I have to say I really don't think this is going on ... and if so, very little. I have watched so much Federer slow motion FH video... I should be able to play it back from my memory. One thing that struck me one day was ... this really isn't a loop ... like a circle or an oval. Watch Federer's racquet drop into the slot, and then it moves into a straight line (sometimes low to high) to contact. To me, it should be called dropping the racquet to the track ... and then whip the racquet along that track to ball contact. I learned this lesson the hard way. I was out there trying to learn to hit the new FH, wondering why I was having such a hard time working out the bottom of the loop (circle) and then making contact. It's not a loop ... maybe I just think I heard that term. Oh yeah ... on the gravity helping thing. Watch Federer in slow motion as the racquet gets to the point where it is slung forward. If we really were talking about a pendulum, then of course gravity would be helping. But this is a change of direction from the drop to the track ... almost a split-second stop. Others can comment ... but that's what I see. You are getting the benefit of not muscling the drop ... and that's probably the comment about kids being able to handle the weight of a heavier racquet (from prep to gravity drop of racquet).

So here are Ferrer and Murray ... straight back to the fence. I think the 1) constant motion from second hand release of the racquet to contact ... 2) lag via leading buttcap, supination, pronation 3) hip rotation ... yada yada yada (btw ... thought you may have nailed with "The hip drive and the flip are the same move") ... are common staples among the pros.

In a different reality, I would meet you for a hit and some beer ... and we could work on that FH perfection. Hell... with enough beer ... we really wouldn't care.

Good hitting ... good video ... keep it up.

It's a matter of degree. The further back you point the racquet before initiating the forward swing the smaller your "flip," will be. A smaller flip makes it a little easier to time the shot, but, generates less racquet head speed. Ferrer and Murray point their racquets almost, but not quite, straight back and have smaller flips as a result. Federer points his racquet almost sideways and probably has the biggest flip of all time. I've never seen one bigger. Nadal comes close.

 

[ByeByePoly]

It's a matter of degree. The further back you point the racquet before initiating the forward swing the smaller your "flip," will be. A smaller flip makes it a little easier to time the shot, but, generates less racquet head speed. Ferrer and Murray point their racquets almost, but not quite, straight back and have smaller flips as a result. Federer points his racquet almost sideways and probably has the biggest flip of all time. I've never seen one bigger. Nadal comes close.

I like your, and Guy's observations and all of it is helpful for working on my fh. I am new to the vocabulary ... so can you define what you mean by "flip". I think it is the full range of arm turn from:
1) starting from initial arm with wrist supination (door knob to right) on initial grip forward movement ... which allows the pros to point butt way past butt towards ball ***
2) ending at impact position where we have un-supinated to a neutral arm/wrist contact position.

Something like that ... and then after contact pronation continues ... sometimes into a WW follow through.

If that is the definition ... or close ... then I don't see how arm/racquet position (side fence or back fence) effects that "flip supinaion -> un-supination" range. I am sitting here testing my supination maxumum (right thumb to the right) and it's the same.

*** Initially, when trying to point butt of racquet towards ball (much less past that line) I wasn't even coming close... very frustrating. Then after my zillionth watching of slow motion video (Nadal that time) I picked up on his wrist rolling to the right when the grip started forwards. One of those ... "are you f****** kidding me" moments. I could have saved much time with that little nugget. Now ... knowing that ... and doing it is a pretty tough timing issue. I find I revert back to less than full supination. That is kind of a question in itself ... we don't hit balls every day like the pros ... should we really be trying to match this extreme timing, or maybe a bit less. Dumb question ... I want the FULL Federer.

 

[Limpinhitter]

I like your, and Guy's observations and all of it is helpful for working on my fh. I am new to the vocabulary ... so can you define what you mean by "flip". I think it is the full range of arm turn from:
1) starting from initial arm with wrist supination (door knob to right) on initial grip forward movement ... which allows the pros to point butt way past butt towards ball ***
2) ending at impact position where we have un-supinated to a neutral arm/wrist contact position.

Something like that ... and then after contact pronation continues ... sometimes into a WW follow through.

If that is the definition ... or close ... then I don't see how arm/racquet position (side fence or back fence) effects that "flip supinaion -> un-supination" range. I am sitting here testing my supination maxumum (right thumb to the right) and it's the same.

*** Initially, when trying to point butt of racquet towards ball (much less past that line) I wasn't even coming close... very frustrating. Then after my zillionth watching of slow motion video (Nadal that time) I picked up on his wrist rolling to the right when the grip started forwards. One of those ... "are you f****** kidding me" moments. I could have saved much time with that little nugget. Now ... knowing that ... and doing it is a pretty tough timing issue. I find I revert back to less than full supination. That is kind of a question in itself ... we don't hit balls every day like the pros ... should we really be trying to match this extreme timing, or maybe a bit less. Dumb question ... I want the FULL Federer.

The "flip," is a term coined by Rick Macci to describe the rapid door knob turn - back and forth - starting at the beginning of the forward swing. It is a passive movement, not an active or purposeful movement, created by a combination of the kinetic chain, proper arm and racquet position at the back of the backswing, and a loose, relaxed arm and grip. In my opinion, the optimal arm and racquet position to execute the flip (assuming you're a righty), is with the hand pointing to about 5:00 (from above), the top of the racquet pointing to the right and the face of the racquet pointing down. If the racquet is already pointing to the back fence before you begin the forward swing, then there is no potential for the racquet to rapidly snap back and then forward. If your set-up is correct (open stance and unit turn), including the position of your arm and racquet, and your arm and grip are loose and relaxed, the flip is almost self executing. If you want the full Federer, this the most important aspect.

 

[ByeByePoly]

The "flip," is a term coined by Rick Macci to describe the rapid door knob turn - back and forth - starting at the beginning of the forward swing. It is a passive movement, not an active or purposeful movement, created by a combination of the kinetic chain, proper arm and racquet position at the back of the backswing, and a loose, relaxed arm and grip. In my opinion, the optimal arm and racquet position to execute the flip (assuming you're a righty), is with the hand pointing to about 5:00 (from above), the top of the racquet pointing to the right and the face of the racquet pointing down. If the racquet is already pointing to the back fence before you begin the forward swing, then there is no potential for the racquet to rapidly snap back and then forward. If your set-up is correct (open stance and unit turn), including the position of your arm and racquet, and your arm and grip are loose and relaxed, the flip is almost self executing. If you want the full Federer, this the most important aspect.

Thanks ... "flip", and "pat the dog" has the original source... Macci. Got it.

is with the hand pointing to about 5:00

I have found my TE is a great teacher. One of my TE + FH AHA!!! moments was "elbow" position more than arm position. I had not realized it, but I had been hitting the FH with the elbow probably in the 3 or 4 o'clock on the back swing. I was already aware of the concept of closed racquet face, pat the dog, etc... but somewhere in the learning curve my elbow wasn't getting back far enough. Try it sometimes... hit your FH from 3:00 elbow vs 5-6:00 elbow. AHA!!! there was that easy power and racquet head speed ... more racquet head speed = less TE sensitivity. I don't know if the instructors point that out or not ... but to me, no matter what else you do ... you need that elbow back to leverage easy power.

My flip seems to be more "self execution ... i.e. lethal drugs" than "self executing".

 

[Limpinhitter]

Thanks ... "flip", and "pat the dog" has the original source... Macci. Got it.

is with the hand pointing to about 5:00

I have found my TE is a great teacher. One of my TE + FH AHA!!! moments was "elbow" position more than arm position. I had not realized it, but I had been hitting the FH with the elbow probably in the 3 or 4 o'clock on the back swing. I was already aware of the concept of closed racquet face, pat the dog, etc... but somewhere in the learning curve my elbow wasn't getting back far enough. Try it sometimes... hit your FH from 3:00 elbow vs 5-6:00 elbow. AHA!!! there was that easy power and racquet head speed ... more racquet head speed = less TE sensitivity. I don't know if the instructors point that out or not ... but to me, no matter what else you do ... you need that elbow back to leverage easy power.

My flip seems to be more "self execution ... i.e. lethal drugs" than "self executing".

Another way to think of it is leading with the butt cap on the backswing and on the forward swing. The transition in between, which should be initiated with the kinetic chain, not sooner, is the flip. A flying elbow ala Lendl or Sampras enables tremendous internal/external shoulder rotation which they used in lieu of the big supination/pronation the current pros are using. Although both together may seem like a good idea, timing can be very challenging.

Many players (and almost all WTA players), will lay the racquet head back so that it's facing the back fence or even the left side fence, before they initiate the kinetic chain. They can still hit a damn good forehand this way, but, they have squandered the flip and the added racquet head speed associated with it and are merely dragging the racquet through contact.

 

[rkelley]

Another way to think of it is leading with the butt cap on the backswing and on the forward swing. The transition in between, which should be initiated with the kinetic chain, not sooner, is the flip. A flying elbow ala Lendl or Sampras enables tremendous internal/external shoulder rotation which they used in lieu of the big supination/pronation the current pros are using. Although both together may seem like a good idea, timing can be very challenging.

Many players (and almost all WTA players), will lay the racquet head back so that it's facing the back fence or even the left side fence, before they initiate the kinetic chain. They can still hit a damn good forehand this way, but, they have squandered the flip and the added racquet head speed associated with it and are merely dragging the racquet through contact.

I agree most of what Limpin said, but I'll throw in a couple of other thougths:

• Even on the "modern" forehand the WW motion near contact comes mostly from internal shoulder rotation, not pronation. That's a big deal actually because if you're focused on your forearm for that WW motion, even given that it's not a forced motion, you're focusing on the wrong area. The above is why I like to think of the motion just as throwing the edge of the racquet across the ball's path. It's a simpler, more natural mental construct for most people, certainly for me. All of the internal shoulder rotation and pronation will mostly take care of itself. I think John Yandell has data on this.
• I'm not sure that side fence pointing of the racquet in set-up yields more power. It may be more about fast power. If you can get the racquet back and pointed to the side fence, face of the racquet down, you can rip off a fairly powerful fh with good pace and spin with a minimal shoulder turn back into the ball. It's darn handy when someone rifling shots at you. Someone like Federer would really need this because he likes to play up on the baseline so he needs to be able to very quickly set-up and generate power on a ground stroke. Most of Fed's contempories don't play up quite as far as he tends to in the rallies, so they will have a bit more time for set-up. Fed's grip might have something do with it too (being more E than most of his contemporaries).

 

[Rfedisthegoat]

Congrats, TDK!

Looks really good. You have pretty good separation between your hips and arm. The dog is wagging the tail so to speak instead of the other way around.

Two suggestions:

1. I feel like your base could be a bit wider. You don't want to be doing the splits... but a wider base might help you utilize the ground force more, because you ARE using your legs nicely.

2. A few other people have mentioned this, but it's really the key. Just relax. You know what you're doing... you just need to let it go... try checking in on your grip pressure throughout the backswing... somebody should be able to go up to you, pause your motion, and easily grab the racket out of your hand. looks a little stiff... but hey, we all are!

Hope this helps

Congratulations, mate!

Hi

Turned 54 on Thursday and was lucky enough to play tennis in the afternoon. No cake needed. Here is the video from that session.

Many of you folks are probably much younger than me but for the aging part of this community this video might be of interest. I've been posting here quite a bit so you might have seen me play before but here is a brand new video with some of the things I have been working on for the past 3-4 years. I used to play as a kid and Jr but had a 20y brake. The usual story.

Anyway, 15y ago I picked up playing tennis again but didn't seem to improve much. I usually do stuff properly so I took a bunch of lessons and stuff and played 3-4 times a week but no coaching or advice from good players really seem to help, so I started to investigate in modern tennis technique on my own. One thing that was truly frustrating was that I could not play with head-light rackets. I was taping on lead on all my sticks around the hoop and it was a show I can tell you. I was at the pro-shop every other day. All the guys in the shop said its common that pro players use a lot of tweaking their gear and it seemed cool to be associated with Federer and stuff but I knew the truth. There was something totally wrong with what I was doing and I was a crap player.

Then by accident I did a finding that changed it all. It was actually really simple. How many times haven't we heard our coaches tell us to watch the ball, move forwards as we strike, improve our physical condition or simply play more matches. Don't get me wrong, that is also something we should do and benefit greatly from, but what changed it all for me was the Fore Hand LAG concept. The key to the holy grail in tennis, the ATP Fore Hand. So if you ask me what is the most important thing in a strong pro level FH I will tell you that its the LAG. Without it nothing else matters. After hitting the ball for the first five minutes with LAG I suddenly realized why I had not been able to hit with a head-light racket. If you find this to be true with your own playing keep on reading. Before, with a head heavy racket I could pounder the ball under certain conditions but I had little control and I was hitting flat. And I could not put speed on a sloppy and slow ball.

I went and took a head light racket I had in the bag but never used and for the first time in my life I was hitting consistent hard topspin balls deep in the court. The coach was speechless. That's how big the difference was. For a couple of years I was still fiddling around with rackets before finally I picked up this Dunlop Biomimetic F2 strung with Black Widow strings. Its no longer in production but I'm stocked up now. No lead tape needed. No endless tweaking.

The most simple advice I was presented with and adapted in 5 minutes was to point the racket towards the side fence before swinging at the ball instead of straight backwards commonly known as the WTA FH. When you point the racket towards the side fence the racket head will LAG behind as you swing at the ball instead of just being dragged behind. Now the head comes around in a snapping motion and slaps the ball instead of pushes it. There is a lot more going on such as swinging from low to high and releasing forwards and stuff but that is what you should be working on instead of at this point all sorts of secondary stuff.

Ok, here is the video. Thank you all for a great community.

Any feedback much appreciated.

Tom

Hi

Turned 54 on Thursday and was lucky enough to play tennis in the afternoon. No cake needed. Here is the video from that session.

Many of you folks are probably much younger than me but for the aging part of this community this video might be of interest. I've been posting here quite a bit so you might have seen me play before but here is a brand new video with some of the things I have been working on for the past 3-4 years. I used to play as a kid and Jr but had a 20y brake. The usual story.

Anyway, 15y ago I picked up playing tennis again but didn't seem to improve much. I usually do stuff properly so I took a bunch of lessons and stuff and played 3-4 times a week but no coaching or advice from good players really seem to help, so I started to investigate in modern tennis technique on my own. One thing that was truly frustrating was that I could not play with head-light rackets. I was taping on lead on all my sticks around the hoop and it was a show I can tell you. I was at the pro-shop every other day. All the guys in the shop said its common that pro players use a lot of tweaking their gear and it seemed cool to be associated with Federer and stuff but I knew the truth. There was something totally wrong with what I was doing and I was a crap player.

Then by accident I did a finding that changed it all. It was actually really simple. How many times haven't we heard our coaches tell us to watch the ball, move forwards as we strike, improve our physical condition or simply play more matches. Don't get me wrong, that is also something we should do and benefit greatly from, but what changed it all for me was the Fore Hand LAG concept. The key to the holy grail in tennis, the ATP Fore Hand. So if you ask me what is the most important thing in a strong pro level FH I will tell you that its the LAG. Without it nothing else matters. After hitting the ball for the first five minutes with LAG I suddenly realized why I had not been able to hit with a head-light racket. If you find this to be true with your own playing keep on reading. Before, with a head heavy racket I could pounder the ball under certain conditions but I had little control and I was hitting flat. And I could not put speed on a sloppy and slow ball.

I went and took a head light racket I had in the bag but never used and for the first time in my life I was hitting consistent hard topspin balls deep in the court. The coach was speechless. That's how big the difference was. For a couple of years I was still fiddling around with rackets before finally I picked up this Dunlop Biomimetic F2 strung with Black Widow strings. Its no longer in production but I'm stocked up now. No lead tape needed. No endless tweaking.

The most simple advice I was presented with and adapted in 5 minutes was to point the racket towards the side fence before swinging at the ball instead of straight backwards commonly known as the WTA FH. When you point the racket towards the side fence the racket head will LAG behind as you swing at the ball instead of just being dragged behind. Now the head comes around in a snapping motion and slaps the ball instead of pushes it. There is a lot more going on such as swinging from low to high and releasing forwards and stuff but that is what you should be working on instead of at this point all sorts of secondary stuff.

Ok, here is the video. Thank you all for a great community.

Any feedback much appreciated.

Tom

 

[ByeByePoly]

I agree most of what Limpin said, but I'll throw in a couple of other thougths:

• Even on the "modern" forehand the WW motion near contact comes mostly from internal shoulder rotation, not pronation. That's a big deal actually because if you're focused on your forearm for that WW motion, even given that it's not a forced motion, you're focusing on the wrong area. The above is why I like to think of the motion just as throwing the edge of the racquet across the ball's path. It's a simpler, more natural mental construct for most people, certainly for me. All of the internal shoulder rotation and pronation will mostly take care of itself. I think John Yandell has data on this.
• I'm not sure that side fence pointing of the racquet in set-up yields more power. It may be more about fast power. If you can get the racquet back and pointed to the side fence, face of the racquet down, you can rip off a fairly powerful fh with good pace and spin with a minimal shoulder turn back into the ball. It's darn handy when someone rifling shots at you. Someone like Federer would really need this because he likes to play up on the baseline so he needs to be able to very quickly set-up and generate power on a ground stroke. Most of Fed's contempories don't play up quite as far as he tends to in the rallies, so they will have a bit more time for set-up. Fed's grip might have something do with it too (being more E than most of his contemporaries).

I would have double-Liked your post if was an option. I think "swing thoughts" is the best way to learn ... same for golf and tennis. "Throw the edge of the racquet across the balls path" is a very good swing thought ... just passed the shadow swing indoor test.

Maybe since you had that swing thought, you have one for my question above: "how to time the initiation of the racquet going back from the set shoulder turn position". To me ... this FH presents more timing issues than any stroke I have used in tennis. Think McEnroe forehand ... he could get set early and hold it ... no harm. I can get my 1hbh or 2hbh set early ... no problem. Not so with the ATP FH. You can get set early ... think Fed with shoulder turn, racquet high ... both hands still on the racquet. But what you can't do early is start your backswing/loop or you are toast. That is actually a unique longer timing issue ... imo. Obviously I'm just talking about initial learning curve and muscle memory training... it ends up as automatic without thought once we are there with muscle memory.

I think you made a very good "fast" power vs "more" power argument ... but will let Limpin give the rebuttal.

I think the one thing I find is the "butt cap to the ball ... or passed the ball" doesn't happen naturally just from the legs, shoulder turn ... yada yada yada swing. If I take a full relaxed shoulder turn swing ... letting the shoulder, arms and wrist do their thing ... the butt cap remains pointed inside the line of the ball. I would like to hear more about this... I don't think it's just the fact I use a eastern grip (Federer I guess uses a strong Eastern, and he gets way past the line of the ball).

Unfortunately ... while I was agreeing with your shoulder turn (rotation) being king ... it occurred to me my comment about making sure your elbow was 5-6:00 instead of 3:00 was just a total dumbass way to say "take a full shoulder turn". So sad ... so embarrassing.

Oh ... one final thought/question. I made the comment about Tom's (OP) pause with his racquet fully back. I don't see that with the pros (of course, I don't watch that many pros slow motion... the usual suspects ... Fed, Nadal, Murray, etc). Does anyone else think that is to be avoided. After saying that, I'm not sure it really hurts anything ... maybe other than trying to match some idea of "perfect". I was going to use the golf swing as an analogy ... most hardly pause from full backswing to forward swing. But I say most ... because some really good golfers (I think pros) ... totally stop for a pause ... and then go forward. Just curious if others think we must avoid the pause.