ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Yes ... you are right ... "shoulder turn and direction of elbow" is a separate issue from "flying elbow ... or elbow away from the body or tucked in more". For me ... I don't get the AHA unless I "fly the elbow".
Played tennis on my 54th birthday - here is the VIDEO and the story
- Thread starter tdk
- Start date
Yes ... you are right ... "shoulder turn and direction of elbow" is a separate issue from "flying elbow ... or elbow away from the body or tucked in more". For me ... I don't get the AHA unless I "fly the elbow".
For both the fh and bh I generally get the racquet back as soon as I see which side the ball is coming on. My hold position on the fh specifically is with my arm all the way back, racquet pointed to the side, face down-ish (it's actually facing the back fence slightly - I have a SW grip), left arm extended across my body (forcing more separation angle between my shoulder and hips), legs bent with the weight on the back leg mostly. I can hold that all day long before I start the swing. When I watch video of myself I generally don't ever actually completely stop the motion, but when I'm hitting I feel like I hold in that position for a bit unless I'm rushed.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
My hold position on the fh specifically is with my arm all the way back, racquet pointed to the side
Actually, my idea that Fed got into a hold ready position (shoulder turn, both hands still touching the racquet) is not correct. Amazing how you can watch so many of his videos, and still think you saw something else. Look at Limpin's post with three Fed videos... the third one in particular. ( https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...deo-and-the-story.573804/reply"e=10679995 ). Fed (or Nadal) does not get in a paused ready position prior to releasing the leading arm/hand off the racquet. It all goes up and continues into the swing. Now... it looks like they have some "wiggle room" prior to pulling the trigger on the forward swing... but it's basically a constant moving racquet from the start. That's an even bigger timing problem. So I'm thinking I have the luxury to set early... and about the bounce of the ball send the racquet back and release the leading arm/hand. Not so... the timing starts as soon as you start the shoulder turn.
I give up ... going back to McEnroe w/chopper grip.
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Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
My hold position on the fh specifically is with my arm all the way back, racquet pointed to the side
Actually, my idea that Fed got into a held ready position (shoulder turn, both hands still touching the racquet) is not correct. Amazing how you can watch so many of his videos, and still think you saw something else. Look at Limpin's post with three Fed videos... the third one in particular. ( https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...deo-and-the-story.573804/reply"e=10679995 ). Fed (or Nadal) does not get in a paused ready position prior to releasing the leading arm/hand off the racquet. It all goes up and continues into the swing. Now... it looks like they have some "wiggle room" prior to pulling the trigger on the forward swing... but it's basically a constant moving racquet from the start. That's an even bigger timing problem. So I'm thinking I have the luxury to set early... and about the bounce of the ball send the racquet back and release the leading arm/hand. Not so... the timing starts as soon as you start the shoulder turn.
I give up ... going back to McEnroe w/chopper grip.
No problem. Laver used a chopper grip and had a monstrous flip, massive power and heavy topspin with a wood racquet.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
This guy is pretty good and he does have a paused ready position before backward swing
His racquet starts out pointing to sun instead of a fence
and he does have a paused ready position before backward swingHis racquet starts out pointing to sun instead of a fence
tdk
Rookie
I've done some research this weekend. I also went out and practised against wall for an hour to test things out. I did an interesting discovery. Having that Federer position in my head I started to hit the ball against the wall and taped it on video. As I looked at the video straight after I was a bit shocked. Nothing even close. Something that stood out pretty clearly was that I didn't hold the racket horizontal on take back with the face facing the ground. Great thing about this approach is that you can try to fix stuff straight away. I started testing and came to the conclusion that at take back the right arm needs to be held high with the elbow riced up to keep the racket levelled with the ground.
After I got home and started to review the video I noticed that in the ATP FH the pros not only keep the racket levelled with the ground at take back but actually keep it levelled even as late as starting to swing at the ball. The Flip comes a bit later than the initial forward swing start and the racket head Lag. Its first when the racket starts to Whip forwards Lagging behind that the face of the racket opens up to the net. The door knob is not turned at the start of the forward swing. Its turned as the racket head starts to move forwards from that Lagged 7:30 position. It drops down and the face opens up as it comes past 3 o'clock. Then the door knob is turned back instantly after ball contact. So at ball contact the racket head is moving up, the Lag releases and the door knob is turned back.
One more time to clear things out, at take back the racket arm and racket is high and levelled with the ground. Then as it drops the racket remains levelled while the arm starts to point down. As the racket is still moving down and the angle between arm and racket increases the racket gets swinged at the ball. So the racket arm and racket is dropping when the forward swing motion starts and the racket head starts to Lag. This is Murray in particular. As the racket arm reaches its lowest point the racket head whips at 7:30. As the racket arm downward movement stopped this downward movement is transferred into the racket and the racket head drops as a consequence. Is this correct? I didn't say anything about the hips here but we covered that the last time.
My son came by and he filmed me from a few angles:
Did I make any progress?
After I got home and started to review the video I noticed that in the ATP FH the pros not only keep the racket levelled with the ground at take back but actually keep it levelled even as late as starting to swing at the ball. The Flip comes a bit later than the initial forward swing start and the racket head Lag. Its first when the racket starts to Whip forwards Lagging behind that the face of the racket opens up to the net. The door knob is not turned at the start of the forward swing. Its turned as the racket head starts to move forwards from that Lagged 7:30 position. It drops down and the face opens up as it comes past 3 o'clock. Then the door knob is turned back instantly after ball contact. So at ball contact the racket head is moving up, the Lag releases and the door knob is turned back.
One more time to clear things out, at take back the racket arm and racket is high and levelled with the ground. Then as it drops the racket remains levelled while the arm starts to point down. As the racket is still moving down and the angle between arm and racket increases the racket gets swinged at the ball. So the racket arm and racket is dropping when the forward swing motion starts and the racket head starts to Lag. This is Murray in particular. As the racket arm reaches its lowest point the racket head whips at 7:30. As the racket arm downward movement stopped this downward movement is transferred into the racket and the racket head drops as a consequence. Is this correct? I didn't say anything about the hips here but we covered that the last time.
My son came by and he filmed me from a few angles:
Did I make any progress?
tdk
Rookie
This guy is pretty good
His racquet starts out pointing to sun instead of a fence
As he does the Unit Turn his racket head is pointing to the sky with the face facing the side fence. This is ok. But at take back he does not point the head towards the side fence but points it backwards with its face facing the side fence and not down towards the court like Murray and Federer and the rest of the ATP FH guys. Very powerful FH by the way. Only goes to show that the ATP FH is not needed for massive power or control.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
The position of your arm and racquet are better, not quite there yet. However, your stance is not consistently open with your weight on your right leg as it should be. And, you are leading your forward swing with your arm not your right hip, and your arm and grip are too tense and tight. Therefore, there is no kinetic chain, and no flip.
Once again, in an OPEN STANCE, with your weight on your RIGHT LEG, initiate the forward swing by ROTATING YOUR RIGHT HIP FORWARD FIRST. This will pull your torso, which pulls your shoulders which pulls your arm and racquet, with your arm remaining RELAXED and your grip remaining LOOSE, which (if your arm and racquet are in the correct position at set-up - hand pointing to 5:00 O'Clock, top of racquet pointing to the right, face of racquet pointing down), will generate the flip!!!
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
This guy is pretty good
His racquet starts out pointing to sun instead of a fence
Not if you are trying to go "full Federer," it's not. How his racquet starts out is irrelevant. Federer's racquet starts out pointing up too. So what? It's where his arm and racquet are at the back of the backswing when the forward swing is initiated by rotating the hip that matters.
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ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Only goes to show that the ATP FH is not needed for massive power or control.
Or maybe we need to expand our definition of ATP FH.
I will give you an analogy ... once again turning to that evil game called golf. If you watched the senior tour in the past, you would see massive variations in swings ... some frickin ugly. But when they looked in slow motion ... all the swings looked very similar on downswings and contact. To me the lesson is the $ shot is mostly defined by what we do nearer impact then our tendency (me included) to dwell (over analyze) preperation.
What is new is the whip ... many preparations can prepare you for quality whip delivery. { insert sadomasacisim jokes here }
Great thread ... hope you don't mind me working on my FH with you.
Actually, I think it looks really good. You slowed everything down, you get into a good setup, and your swing has most of the elements that we've been discussing. I see a flip (not in love with that concept, but I get it), and I personally think the stance is fine. Good job.
If you want to get more spin, then there's one more thing you can do. Right now you are still basically swinging the face of the racquet into the ball. When your racquet flips, it flips too much from horizontal and you're mostly swinging the face square onto the ball. You're getting some topspin for sure, but you could get a lot more. Go back to that wall, do the same setup, but when you swing think about swinging the edge of the racquet across the ball's path. The path of the racquet and the angle of the racquet face are the same. The racquet's edge leads the entire swing. It's like you could cut the ball in half with the edge of the racquet if the edge hit the center of the ball. Try a face/path angle of 45 degrees to start with. This angle will change depending on the exact shot. But you want the edge of the racquet leading the swing into and through the contact zone for quite a ways. Fed continues that edge leading swing plane for almost the entire rest of the swing.
Yes, you are essentially grazing the top of the ball with the strings of the racquet, but that's where the big spin comes from. With the swing speed you currently show in the video you should be able to hit a slower pace, higher spin ball. Once you learn that feeling you can swing faster and hit higher pace balls that still have a ton of spin.
If you want to get more spin, then there's one more thing you can do. Right now you are still basically swinging the face of the racquet into the ball. When your racquet flips, it flips too much from horizontal and you're mostly swinging the face square onto the ball. You're getting some topspin for sure, but you could get a lot more. Go back to that wall, do the same setup, but when you swing think about swinging the edge of the racquet across the ball's path. The path of the racquet and the angle of the racquet face are the same. The racquet's edge leads the entire swing. It's like you could cut the ball in half with the edge of the racquet if the edge hit the center of the ball. Try a face/path angle of 45 degrees to start with. This angle will change depending on the exact shot. But you want the edge of the racquet leading the swing into and through the contact zone for quite a ways. Fed continues that edge leading swing plane for almost the entire rest of the swing.
Yes, you are essentially grazing the top of the ball with the strings of the racquet, but that's where the big spin comes from. With the swing speed you currently show in the video you should be able to hit a slower pace, higher spin ball. Once you learn that feeling you can swing faster and hit higher pace balls that still have a ton of spin.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
hahaha ... if you read my post to tdk ... you will see I agree. Well ... at least partially. You have to deliver the whip... we agree (probably not on my word whip). You make the additional case arm and racquet position on backswing has to be xxx to do it correctly. Sounds right ... I have to go watch more videos.
Depending on vocabulary ... if Goffin's FH is not deemed a ATP FH, that's fine ... maybe the technique some of us choose just need different terms... i.e. I got a Goffin.
Really enjoy your feedback ... I am not arguing here ... trying to learn.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
When I swing the racquet the way you describe, the ball does not even reach the net
Is it spinning a lot? That's the goal. To get it over the net make the swing plane steeper for that slow, super spinny ball. If you can get that swing, that feeling engrained, then you use the same swing, higher speed and shallower angle, and you can hit hard, higher pace balls with lower net clearance and lots of spin.
Check out this Fed video
. It's slomo and he's just hitting warm-up pace for him, so it's like a rally ball for us. You can see the spin on the ball. He's getting a lot of spin with a fairly relaxed swing. Compare your video. Your set-up is not that much different than Fed's now. But when he swings (and any pro) the edge leads the swing from before contact until well after. The angle of the racquet and swing plane remain unchanged.
That's the magic of the "ATP fh". The pace and the spin combine for a nastier bouncing, harder to handle ball that is still a safe shot for you to hit. This the rally ball that 5263 talks about all of the time. You can certainly swing through the ball more to get a higher pace ball, but you really want to work on that high spin, medium pace ball as your basic shot.
Check out this Fed video
That's the magic of the "ATP fh". The pace and the spin combine for a nastier bouncing, harder to handle ball that is still a safe shot for you to hit. This the rally ball that 5263 talks about all of the time. You can certainly swing through the ball more to get a higher pace ball, but you really want to work on that high spin, medium pace ball as your basic shot.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
hahaha ... if you read my post to tdk ... you will see I agree. Well ... at least partially. You have to deliver the whip... we agree (probably not on my word whip). You make the additional case arm and racquet position on backswing has to be xxx to do it correctly. Sounds right ... I have to go watch more videos.
Depending on vocabulary ... if Goffin's FH is not deemed a ATP FH, that's fine ... maybe the technique some of us choose just need different terms... i.e. I got a Goffin.
Really enjoy your feedback ... I am not arguing here ... trying to learn.
I understand. You are looking for an easier path. The irony is that when you get it for the first time, you are going to realize how easy the Fed forehand is and wonder why you didn't get it before.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
I probably wasn't clear. I dropped the continental grip (now eastern) and traditional FH four years ago. I have a pretty good FH, plenty of topspin when I want it ... but I would like to improve my consistency on timing, and find some more easy pace if I can. (Would also like to win the lottery). For me ... that doesn't have to be Fed ... going to watch more video including mine and experiment. Now I'm going to go post and help Curious with his slice bh ... that I am not confused about.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
I have been looking at pro FH videos, and all of them point the racquet face (not the head) to the side fence. Murray's gets the closest to face being more down ... but still racquet more vertical than face pointing down at court. Look at Fed ... face totally pointing to side fence. Also note his final backswing arm position ... way back near 5_6:00... his forward swing and then "flip" happening like all of them.
Edit: note they all pretty much end up with racquet face pointing straight down at full arm extension backswing ... 5-6:00. I noticed the FH started clicking for me when it felt like "closed" on backswing before forward swing... which I guess that is what racquet face towards side fence is on take away (closed).
Fed @ 0:15
Murray @ 0:03
Djokovic @ 1:01
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tdk
Rookie
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
I agree ... already looks smoother. I know we are suppose to be watching the FH ... but that BH looked really good. I do think hitting against the wall kind of makes my point that it's what happens from that full backswing to contact that is the critical time/part of the stroke. Check where you have to hold your backswing because the ball bounces twice. You still time your legs, hip, shoulders ... and hit a quality shot.
- The $ is made between that closed racquet backswing and contact
- beauty and message board debate it is what happens before
tdk
Rookie
I agree ... already looks smoother. I know we are suppose to be watching the FH ... but that BH looked really good. I do think hitting against the wall kind of makes my point that it's what happens from that full backswing to contact that is the critical time/part of the stroke. Check where you have to hold your backswing because the ball bounces twice. You still time your legs, hip, shoulders ... and hit a quality shot.
- The $ is made between that closed racquet backswing and contact
- beauty and message board debate it is what happens before
Thank you. My backhand was totally lost earlier this fall but after giving it some hard training it seems to have come back and much stronger than before. I don't really understand what you mean with the take back and the two bounces. I'm using two bounces so that I have enough time to prepare for the stroke more in a 1 2 3 1 2 3 rhythm than in a 1 2 1 2 1 2 type of manner. It slows down the take back.
I agree with you totally that what happens from that table top position to the ball impact is the most important but by bringing my arm back at shoulder level and horizontal and slowly lowering it down low as I finally swing at the ball I get a more smooth start to the swing. My problem has been and still is that I try to pull the racket too violently forward instead of accelerating it from very slow to very fast through out the entire length of the swing. Federer stops his take back while Murray keeps the motion going. And the follow through after ball impact has a lot to do with the release. I have been way too stiff in my wrist and done most of the upward motion of brushing the ball by turning my entire arm from a very low position. Now I'm concentrating on raising my entire arm up high through out the swing. Trying to get the upmotion from that whole package and then releasing the racket forward instead of not releasing it at all. Just sort of wind shield wiping it in front of my face with my arm way down low. I don't know if this makes any sense. Please respond. I'm posting a new video here below where you can see me playing with a sparring partner the same day I made the second wall video.
tdk
Rookie
Here folks is a video from my late night session at the tennis club. I didn't make any slowmotion editing, just some of the fore and back hands I thought were of interest.
Focus here has been on:
- split step
- unit turn
- if possible half open stance
- loading up
- point my left hand towards side fence
- take back high and with racket horizontal and facing down at the court
- racket head pointing towards side fence for LAG setup
- lower my arm keeping the racket horizontal
- push off with my back foot and turn the right hip forward
- swing at the ball racket as horizontal as I can get it
- turn the door knob
- let the racket head drop
- keep my right arm completely extended
- let the racket head swing from down to up
- swing at the ball with my entire arm going from down to up butt cap first
- withdraw my left arm
- impact in front
- release the racket forward
- extend forwards
- turn the door knob the other way
- let the follow through as far as it goes at shoulder height
- kiss my shoulder
- elbow pointing forward
Focus here has been on:
- split step
- unit turn
- if possible half open stance
- loading up
- point my left hand towards side fence
- take back high and with racket horizontal and facing down at the court
- racket head pointing towards side fence for LAG setup
- lower my arm keeping the racket horizontal
- push off with my back foot and turn the right hip forward
- swing at the ball racket as horizontal as I can get it
- turn the door knob
- let the racket head drop
- keep my right arm completely extended
- let the racket head swing from down to up
- swing at the ball with my entire arm going from down to up butt cap first
- withdraw my left arm
- impact in front
- release the racket forward
- extend forwards
- turn the door knob the other way
- let the follow through as far as it goes at shoulder height
- kiss my shoulder
- elbow pointing forward
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
You are crushing that FH below in your new video... I particularly liked watching from the back at the end. Pace and technique doesn't mean much without control, and from the back we see your ball flight and control. If you keep improving at this pace you will be playing Mac and Courier on the senior tour.
You said:
I agree with you totally that what happens from that table top position to the ball impact is the most important but by bringing my arm back at shoulder level and horizontal and slowly lowering it down low as I finally swing at the ball I get a more smooth start to the swing.
Yes ... we are on the same page exactly. There is flexibility in getting to the backswing ... i.e. what works for us and our timing. But then from the backswing to contact, things become more standard across players (at least with pros from the videos I have watched).
btw ... that is all I meant by the two bounces ... most of the getting-to-the-backswing timing has been interupted, and yet you still produce a quality stroke from just holding in place the backswing. To me, this just proves it's the mechanics of the forward swing that matter the most. That is all I was trying to say.
My problem has been and still is that I try to pull the racket too violently forward instead of accelerating it from very slow to very fast through out the entire length of the swing.
This is how I see the forward swing. First, I don't agree with any statements that say the arm in the FH forward swing is just being kinetically pulled from the uncoiling. You put some arm muscle into the forward swing. To me the easy (surprising) power that comes from "less" arm muscling than we would have to have done with the traditional FH(McEnroe) is the "whip". I have just recently started to try and post about the FH, so my "whip" vocabulary may just be mine. Here is what I'm trying to say. To me the late racquet acceleration isn't happening from us trying to swing faster later in the swing, but rather from the racquet whip that happens during the forward swing with that buttcap leading whip. This is the same when hitting a drive in golf. You don't try to increase your club head speed later in the swing, it happens because of the late release of the hands club position (think golf club butt pointing at ground near hands at bottom of swing, and then rapidly before hitting ball club catches up with neutral hand contact position).
Also ... WW is just a name given to a follow through, not something to think about before contact. The racquet does this because it's just the natural path of relaxed arms after impact from our more low to high swing path with some of our ATP swings. They had a great article on this at fuzzyyellowballs ... if I find it I will add the link.
Edit:
http://www.tennis4you.com/lesson-lounge/fuzzy-yellow-balls/article-001.htm
More to say ... but this Fed video helped me simplify my thinking
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ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
I have gone from thinking about advice to just enjoying watching you crush FHs. I think maybe you have been punking us with this "learning" thing.
keep my right arm completely extended
I found this to be harder to time than I expected. I wanted some of that easy inside out Fed power (I can dream) and would work on this with ball machine hitting (before TE). When it clicks, it was amazing how much pace came out of an effortless swing. That said ... I'm not sure if that is wise for us mere mortals ... we don't hit a 1000 balls a day.
Hey, that looks pretty good. Nice set-up, swing, and racquet path. With the swing you have in this video SW and and even W grips should seem more reasonable now. I went full SW once I got the feel for the type of swing you're doing. You can do it with a weaker grip, but the SW feels like it supports the racquet really well because you have a bit more of your hand under the racquet.
Maybe keep your head a bit more still through contact. You kept your eyes on the contact point well on some of the swings (head still moved some), but pulled your head up on some others.
Maybe keep your head a bit more still through contact. You kept your eyes on the contact point well on some of the swings (head still moved some), but pulled your head up on some others.
mntlblok
Hall of Fame
Looks like a perfectly usable forehand to me. My sense was that you were sorta being "careful" with it. The swing path and racket face angle are right, so I see no reason why you couldn't just rear back and swing as hard as you want at the ones in yer strike zone. The harder you swing, the more spin you'll get, which ought to still keep it in the court. Congrats!
tdk
Rookie
Thanks. There were three segments. In the middle segment I tried to look at the ball at contact and after the way Federer does. Did that look ok to you? It felt totally wrong but if that's the way it should be done then its just to get used. I realized that it kept me from over rotating and took away much of that unnecessary spinning.
If Fed needs to keep his eyes on the contact point well after contact, then I'm certainly not going to argue with it. Overall, when I watch pros, or even just good players, one of the things they all tend to do is keep their body, and especially their head, very still and quiet near contact.
Over rotating the shoulders can be a problem IMO. This also touches on hitting harder. You can hit the ball really hard with fairly modest shoulder rotation if your motion is efficient. As folks who are playing a few times a week without a coach watching our every swing, and maybe just learning these better techniques, I'd say concentrate on hitting within yourself with a clean, efficient motion. If you try to rip every ball then my experience is that the good motion can break down. Ingrain and constantly reinforce the good motion that you've learned by spending time every hitting session hitting in a controlled, efficient way. This is where the best consistency is too. Spend some time ripping some balls of course (it's fun), but you want the foundation of that good motion. This is one area where we want to be careful about imitating the pros IMO. We see them ripping into balls shot after shot, but we don't see the bazillion hours under the watchful eye of a coach that goes into maintaining that great form when they're swinging that hard.
Over rotating the shoulders can be a problem IMO. This also touches on hitting harder. You can hit the ball really hard with fairly modest shoulder rotation if your motion is efficient. As folks who are playing a few times a week without a coach watching our every swing, and maybe just learning these better techniques, I'd say concentrate on hitting within yourself with a clean, efficient motion. If you try to rip every ball then my experience is that the good motion can break down. Ingrain and constantly reinforce the good motion that you've learned by spending time every hitting session hitting in a controlled, efficient way. This is where the best consistency is too. Spend some time ripping some balls of course (it's fun), but you want the foundation of that good motion. This is one area where we want to be careful about imitating the pros IMO. We see them ripping into balls shot after shot, but we don't see the bazillion hours under the watchful eye of a coach that goes into maintaining that great form when they're swinging that hard.
tdk
Rookie
This is totally true. There are tons of video on YouTube of pros training and I have gone to tournaments and watched the pros warm up and they are hitting surprisingly controlled and soft while the coaches walk around giving comments.
One question I have regarding the above. In order not to hit very hard, should I reduce all the movements such as take back and LAG or should I just do everything exactly the same just slower?
Curious
G.O.A.T.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
This is one area where we want to be careful about imitating the pros IMO. We see them ripping into balls shot after shot, but we don't see the bazillion hours under the watchful eye of a coach that goes into maintaining that great form when they're swinging that hard.
Yeah, I agree, and would separate that into two questions for the adult tennis player thinking about converting to the "modern forehand ***"
1) will you be a better tennis player if you change to the new FH ... your best stroke is one that you can repeat, timing, etc. You could add pace and spin ... but if you introduce a bunch of timing issues and UEs ... what did you gain.
2) once you have decided to go the modern FH route ... which flavor. To me ... I am on the same page with what Tom (OP) is finding out. The most important "new thing" is the lag. It's the main element in the increased RHS IMO. I have not been convinced there is just one right way to deliver that lag for the increased RHS. I think we are talking about two different sets of problems from what Federer faces, and what we face as league tennis players. The Federer short compact delivery is important at his level of play, and pace he faces. Short, powerful delivery is a huge advantage. But we don't face that kind of pace ... so it's a different calculation for us. What is the best, most repeatable "lag" delivery for my game, and the pace of ball I face. Now ... Limpin and NYTA may be correct, it's the same answer for the amateur or the pro ... everyone should be going for the Federer gold standard. I'm not so sure about that. My current swing has a bigger loop ... almost behind head, but ends up in a similar forward slot with lag (at least I think it does ... I might post pics). I have experimented with the shorter ... Fed ... Macci pat the dog ... (Macci really makes the point the racquet head has to come from outside in rather than behind the back and inside out) ... and ... well... not as smooth or fun to hit. Guy made the point above about he liked the idea of smoother swings with gravity and the loop assisting in the swing. Well... seems like you get more with a bigger loop ... and I don't have to face pro pace so you have the time.
*** Modern FH .... I'm sure there are threads here at TT on this, but it seems we need better vocabulary to discuss what we mean when we cay "ATP FH", or "Modern FH". As I said, I think the core change is the "lag" (not the flip ...still not sure about any flip ... kind of tired of looking for supination/pronation flips). I watch a bunch of pro FH slow motion video, and there is quite a bit of variety except the "lag" during the forward swing ... that seems to be a staple for all of them. So maybe we need additional categories ... like "Full Federer with Lag" .... or "outside in w/lag" ... or "inside out with lag".
I know two things:
1) Tom's FH is already good... it's time for him to whoop some opponents
2) he needs to live in a warmer place
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
This is one area where we want to be careful about imitating the pros IMO. We see them ripping into balls shot after shot, but we don't see the bazillion hours under the watchful eye of a coach that goes into maintaining that great form when they're swinging that hard.
Yeah, I agree, and would separate that into two questions for the adult tennis player thinking about converting to the "modern forehand ***"
1) will you be a better tennis player if you change to the new FH ... your best stroke is one that you can repeat, timing, etc. You could add pace and spin ... but if you introduce a bunch of timing issues and UEs ... what did you gain.
2) once you have decided to go the modern FH route ... which flavor. To me ... I am on the same page with what Tom (OP) is finding out. The most important "new thing" is the lag. It's the main element in the increased RHS IMO. I have not been convinced there is just one right way to deliver that lag for the increased RHS. I think we are talking about two different sets of problems from what Federer faces, and what we face as league tennis players. The Federer short compact delivery is important at his level of play, and pace he faces. Short, powerful delivery is a huge advantage. But we don't face that kind of pace ... so it's a different calculation for us. What is the best, most repeatable "lag" delivery for my game, and the pace of ball I face. Now ... Limpin and NYTA may be correct, it's the same answer for the amateur or the pro ... everyone should be going for the Federer gold standard. I'm not so sure about that. My current swing has a bigger loop ... almost behind head, but ends up in a similar forward slot with lag (at least I think it does ... I might post pics). I have experimented with the shorter ... Fed ... Macci pat the dog ... (Macci really makes the point the racquet head has to come from outside in rather than behind the back and inside out) ... and ... well... not as smooth or fun to hit. Guy made the point above about he liked the idea of smoother swings with gravity and the loop assisting in the swing. Well... seems like you get more with a bigger loop ... and I don't have to face pro pace so you have the time.
*** Modern FH .... I'm sure there are threads here at TT on this, but it seems we need better vocabulary to discuss what we mean when we cay "ATP FH", or "Modern FH". As I said, I think the core change is the "lag" (not the flip ...still not sure about any flip ... kind of tired of looking for supination/pronation flips). I watch a bunch of pro FH slow motion video, and there is quite a bit of variety except the "lag" during the forward swing ... that seems to be a staple for all of them. So maybe we need additional categories ... like "Full Federer with Lag" .... or "outside in w/lag" ... or "inside out with lag".
I know two things:
1) Tom's FH is already good... it's time for him to whoop some opponents
2) he needs to live in a warmer place
The most obvious distinguishing characteristic of the ATP forehand (and most important in my view), is the short backswing and the flip. A great forehand can be hit without that. But, all other things being equal, it will result in increased racquet head speed.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
You know you are killing me with this f***ing flip ... right?
I say it's the lag... as long as it arrives late. In fact, I think I have come up with a modern FH teaching "phrase" for MEN (maybe women also) that could eliminate 1000s of TT kinetic chain threads (past and future):
"The modern FH is like sex.... late release is best." (TM)
The guys out there that have been confused now just went ... "OH ... that's what Limpin meant".
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
You know you are killing me with this f***ing flip ... right?
I say it's the lag... as long as it arrives late. In fact, I think I have come up with a modern FH teaching "phrase" for MEN (maybe women also) that could eliminate 1000s of TT kinetic chain threads (past and future):
"The modern FH is like sex.... late release is best." (TM)
The guys out there that have been confused now just went ... "OH ... that's what Limpin meant".
No, that's not what I mean! First, in my view, you are misusing the term lag. Lag best describes the delay in time between the initiation of the forward swing with hip rotation (followed by execution of the sequence of the kinetic chain), and contact with the ball. Supinating the arm is not the lag. Further, you are conflating/confusing supination of the arm (what you refer to as lag), with the flip. Supination is only the first have of the flip. The other half is pronation. Virtually all WTA players supinate their arms in the forward swing. But, virtually none of them execute the flip. Moreover, in order for the flip to occur rapidly, as it is supposed to be executed, it has to be generated by the kinetic chain with a passive arm. If you purposely supinate your arm at the back of the backswing, you have squandered the benefit of the rapid supination/pronation movement that adds RHS to your forehand.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
Nope! Your arm and racquet position at the back of your backswing is improved. That's a start. But, there is still virtually no kinetic chain, and no flip. You are stepping into the shot linearly and swinging with the force of your arm. It takes time to learn a new shot. It takes more time to unlearn an old shot and then learn a new shot.
Again, in the set-up position, when your racquet is at the back of your backswing, in an OPEN STANCE, load up your weight on your RIGHT LEG, and initiate the forward swing by rotating your RIGHT HIP toward the target and rotate around your right leg. This will initiate the kinetic chain. Maintain a loose and relaxed arm and grip throughout. The proper load up position (including the position of the arm and racquet), with a relaxed arm and grip will enable the initiation of the kinetic chain and the flip.
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ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Yeah ... lag is late release like I said, you are just talking about longer foreplay.
Actually, I knew what the two halves of the flip are suppose to be, I just don't see it in video. I watch Federer slo mo FH over and over, but don't see it. I don't even see the supination first half. If I watch the face of his racquet in full backswing ... say at 5 o'clock ... the strings are facing almost toward the ground. As he starts his hand forward ... the butt faces past forward, and head of racquet slides more behind him ... say pointing 8-9:00 o'clock. During that slide, the strings pretty much remain pointing down to ground at same angle. If he was supinating ... turning door knob clockwise ... the leading edge of the racquet would turn up. I don't see it (but I have had two Lasik surgeries mid-30s). I see the pronation on the WW follow through after impact, but that is just natural path for arms and hands after contact. Maybe I need super super super super slow motion.
I need a ATP FH Wikipedia entry.
OK ... give me a term for "from forward arm/hand movement when wrist/racquet first lays back to impact". That ... to me is the "leap" in the new FH. Surely we were using legs,hip,shoulders in the McEnroe chopper FH.
@00:20
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
When you say FH supination/pronation, are you talking about doorknob turn ... both directions? If so, that's a different form of pronation than the serve. The doorknob turn is more wrist rotation and less arm... more subtle.
mntlblok
Hall of Fame
To me, the difference is that the wrist is in a "neutral" or flat position whilst pronation is going on in the serve, but is laid back or in "extension" during the forehand, yielding a much different movement of the racket face for the two shots. For the serve, it yields "hit", or a perpendicular move of the racket face towards the ball and the target. For the forehand, it yields "spin", or a parallel move of racket face, 90 degrees to the target line - or thereabouts. _Technical Tennis_ and the perfesser here tell us that movement of the racket face parallel to the string bed is what causes spin, IIRC.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
ok ... we both agree the sup/pro is different between the serve and fh ... and resulting racquet face movement is different (I assume you agreed less supination with FH).
Yes, obviously when watching Fed in the forward swing, the wrist laying back effects racquet face ... but I would say that is just butt to tip direction, and not closed/open direction which would be supination.
[Serve]
Maybe this example works. If I hold my right arm out fully extended ... and pretend to turn a screw driver counterclockwise ... I see significant forearm roll to the left.
[FH]
Now ... do the same test, but turn the doorknob to the left (do it without wrist laid back). Still forearm roll ... supination, but much less because now wrist is providing much of the turn/rotation.
This is all kind of over-thinking a FH tennis stroke, but I mention it because it's been my sticking point on trying to mimic the Fed FH. Even in super slow motion, it's pretty subtle and confusing right at the point the butt of his racquet starts forward.
I have no illusion that I need to, or maybe even want to use that Fed technique in my FH ... but at this point with so many hours watching Fed video ... I am at least going to understand it.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
This was good video to see where wrist first lays back... and face of racquet. Watch from 1:50 - 1:59 ...
Also interesting at 2:23 contact point his wrist remains fully laid back. I am guilty of claiming on other threads that wrist gets back to neutral at contact. Just goes to show you ... take tennis advice on a messageboard at your own risk.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
If the forward arm/hand movement is the final element of the kinetic chain, and the wrist lays back as a result of the kinetic chain and a short backswing with a relaxed arm and grip, then I call it an ATP FH.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
The doorknob turn is purely supination/pronation. On forehand, there is also a bit of wrist extension and flexion. The laid back wrist on forehand is really a combination of supination and extension. On serve, there is also supination/pronation and some wrist flexion after contact. I don't know what you mean by wrist rotation.
PS: Ultimately, you can't think about all this when playing without being paralyzed. You have to first learn it, memorize what it feels like, and just duplicate that feeling when playing. Video analysis is the best way I know of to confirm that you are doing what you think you are doing.
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Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
As I have read this very interesting thread, I decided to post my very short video. It was recorded several months ago. An attempt to recreate Federer's biomechanics (forehand stroke). Not ideal... but maybe someday.
Link:
Your upper body is static. There is no upper body rotation and, therefore, no kinetic chain - the chain of events beginning with rotation of the right hip toward the target, which pulls the torso, which pulls the shoulders, which pulls the arm and racquet, which leads to the rapid supination pronation of the arm into contact aka "the flip." Rather, your legs and upper body are motionless and you are merely hinging from the shoulder. I will point out that it is difficult to fully execute the modern forehand, with the long finish and upper body rotation, against most walls because the courts aren't deep enough. A full swing will result in the ball bouncing behind you, and you don't have time to recover from the long finish of a modern forehand. Try to find a wall with a court as deep as a tennis court, including the 21 foot backcourt between the baseline and the fence.
This is a basic guideline: In your "set-up" position, at the back of your backswing, you should be set up in a wide, open stance (about 45 degrees to the target line), with your chest facing 3 O'Clock (from above), your right hand pointing to 5 O'Clock, and the top of the racquet pointing to the side fence, initiate your forward swing by rotating your right hip forward and allow the kinetic chain (described above), to activate the rapid supination/pronation of your arm. Your arm and grip should be loose, relaxed and mostly passive throughout the swing and follow through. At the finish, your chest will have turned nearly 180 degrees to 9 O'Clock, your elbow will be pointing to the target, and your racquet head will be down near your left hip.
tdk
Rookie
Hi everybody. I'm back. Been playing this fall maybe 2-3 times a week. On Tuesdays I play with a coach 1 on 1. Last week I was horrible. This week I was the best ever. In the videos here below you can read in the narration what I have been working on lately. One big issue is how I move on the court. That has to be addressed. I need to get that split step ingrained and loose all that annoying stepping I'm doing. Here is what I should be doing:
- split step as opponent strikes ball
- semi western grip
- unit turn asap
- keep both hands on the racket
- drop your CoM by bending legs
- move in position with small steps
- if possible take a closed stance to prevent rotating hips
- be as relaxed as possible
- point the racket towards the side fence as I pat the dog for LAG
- keep my right arm up and my elbow away from my body
- point my right arm back towards the back fence
- keep the racket head face down and as horizontally levelled as possible
- stretch my left arm towards side fence
- shortly stop at this moment for rhythm
- weight transfer to start the swing
- step off of the right back foot
- extend my racket arm as straight as I can
- land on my left front foot
- swing at the ball butt cap first for LAG
- turn the door knob and let the racket head drop down
- use my whole arm to go from low to high
- pull my left arm sideways across my chest for momentum
- extend my legs and move my weight forward
- let my chest lead the way
- try to get the racket to swing a bit sideways into the ball for topspin
- hit the ball with my fist above the ball impact point
- SLAP the ball
- keep my eyes on the ball after impact
- let the release go forwards
- keep your arm moving up
- kiss the shoulder
- butt cap pointing towards net
- elbow pointing towards net
- chest pointing towards net
- let the racket swing over your shoulder
- let the racket head drop down at the end of the swing
- get into position for the next ball
As you can see there is a lot going on. And everything has crossed my mind at some point in my training. Coach is getting a bit annoyed sometimes because of my analytical approach but tells me I'm one of few who really has been able to change my tennis technique. Upgraded it to ATP level hahahaaa. Only joking. But seriously, the ATP FH is the goal.
In these next videos I play some of my best ground strokes ever. Its the same clip slightly edited differently. The last two FH's were truly epic. First I hit a solid half cross to get my Coach out to the right and then I hit a down the middle to his back hand that he actually got back but I was so stoked over how well I hit I goofed up the last shot that's not on the video. Note that the coach is semi pro level himself. It cant get any better than this. Thank you guys for putting up with me and all my self MA and home movie productions. Please keep your comments flowing in. Thank you in advance.
- split step as opponent strikes ball
- semi western grip
- unit turn asap
- keep both hands on the racket
- drop your CoM by bending legs
- move in position with small steps
- if possible take a closed stance to prevent rotating hips
- be as relaxed as possible
- point the racket towards the side fence as I pat the dog for LAG
- keep my right arm up and my elbow away from my body
- point my right arm back towards the back fence
- keep the racket head face down and as horizontally levelled as possible
- stretch my left arm towards side fence
- shortly stop at this moment for rhythm
- weight transfer to start the swing
- step off of the right back foot
- extend my racket arm as straight as I can
- land on my left front foot
- swing at the ball butt cap first for LAG
- turn the door knob and let the racket head drop down
- use my whole arm to go from low to high
- pull my left arm sideways across my chest for momentum
- extend my legs and move my weight forward
- let my chest lead the way
- try to get the racket to swing a bit sideways into the ball for topspin
- hit the ball with my fist above the ball impact point
- SLAP the ball
- keep my eyes on the ball after impact
- let the release go forwards
- keep your arm moving up
- kiss the shoulder
- butt cap pointing towards net
- elbow pointing towards net
- chest pointing towards net
- let the racket swing over your shoulder
- let the racket head drop down at the end of the swing
- get into position for the next ball
As you can see there is a lot going on. And everything has crossed my mind at some point in my training. Coach is getting a bit annoyed sometimes because of my analytical approach but tells me I'm one of few who really has been able to change my tennis technique. Upgraded it to ATP level hahahaaa. Only joking. But seriously, the ATP FH is the goal.
In these next videos I play some of my best ground strokes ever. Its the same clip slightly edited differently. The last two FH's were truly epic. First I hit a solid half cross to get my Coach out to the right and then I hit a down the middle to his back hand that he actually got back but I was so stoked over how well I hit I goofed up the last shot that's not on the video. Note that the coach is semi pro level himself. It cant get any better than this. Thank you guys for putting up with me and all my self MA and home movie productions. Please keep your comments flowing in. Thank you in advance.
tanventure
New User
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
Better! But, you're still supinating your arm actively instead of passively. Also, there is still too much linear momentum (transferring weight from 6-12), rather than angular momentum (upper body rotation).
Notice that Federer's racquet head falls back as a result of his forward upper body rotation in combination with a loose, relaxed arm and grip. You are actively turning your arm back before you begin your forward swing:
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