Players percentages of service games held and return games won

[nadalwon2012]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...rtance-of-the-hold-and-return-game-since-1998

2010:
1. Rafael Nadal: 90% service games held, 29% return games won.
2. Roger Federer: 89% service games held, 27% returns games won.
3. Novak Djokovic: 82% service games held, 32% return games won.

2011:
1. Novak Djokovic 87% service games held, 41% return games won.
2. Rafael Nadal: 84% service games held, 35% return games won.
3. Andy Murray: 80% service games held, 37% return games won.

And from other years:

2004:
1. Roger Federer: 92/30
2. Lleyton Hewitt: 82/32
3. Andy Roddick: 91/22

2005:
1. Roger Federer: 89/31
2. Rafael Nadal: 84/38
3. Andy Roddick: 93/21

2006:
1. Roger Federer: 90/32
2. Rafael Nadal: 86/29
3. Nikolay Davydenko: 80/35

2007:
1. Roger Federer: 89/29
2. Rafael Nadal: 86/33
3. Novak Djokovic: 84/28

2008:
1. Rafael Nadal: 88/33
2. Roger Federer: 89/27
3. Novak Djokovic: 87/30

2009:
1. Roger Federer: 90/24
2. Rafael Nadal: 84/34
3. Novak Djokovic: 85/31

 

[DRII]

41% return games won in the men's tour is nearly insane!

Nadal and Federer have both fallen off vs last year.

 

[abmk]

41% return games won in the men's tour is nearly insane!

Nadal and Federer have both fallen off vs last year.

nadal's return games % won is actually higher by quite a bit ( as of now ), his service games % won has gone down by quite a bit ....

federer's is similar ( 89 and 27 ) in 2010 and 2011 ( so far ) ....

But then why let facts get in the way of your perceptions !?

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

Wow! Nadal improved return games by 8% in 2011 vs. 2010. This proves Nadal is nowhere near decline.

 

[abmk]

Wow! Nadal improved return games by 8% in 2011 vs. 2010. This proves Nadal is nowhere near decline.

Also to be noted that Nadal's 6% decline in service games won is due to Djoker 2.0 ripping apart his serve innumerable no of times

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

nadal's return games % won is actually higher by quite a bit ( as of now ), his service games % won has gone down by quite a bit ....

federer's is similar ( 89 and 27 ) in 2010 and 2011 ( so far ) ....

But then why let facts get in the way of your perceptions !?

Because of feelings?

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

Also to be noted that Nadal's 6% decline in service games won is due to Djoker 2.0 ripping apart his serve innumerable no of times

The data actually show that Nadal is really not different from his 2008 level and in fact is vastly improved on an all surface context.

 

[Netzroller]

Very interesting. Obviously Djokovic's 41% return games won is out of this world for this year :shock:

Here you have all the numbers:
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Matchfacts/Matchfacts-Landing.aspx
For some reason a lot of people still claim Nadal is a bad returner (and then conclude nonsense that he would not have a chance against guys like Sampras...).

However, he has the 2nd best career percentage in return games won ever. On clay he is the all time best in return games won, points won on 1s serve and points won on 2nd serve!

 

[stringertom]

Contrast Djok's 41% to the really low numbers exhibited by Lopez (15%), Isner (13%) & Dr. Ivo (9%). It is superhuman!

 

[nadalwon2012]

Yeah, no surprise the range of returning ability on tour is spread far more than serving prowess which is high throughout the tour. Men's tour known for great serving. The range of women's serving will be spread a lot.

 

[SStrikerR]

Very interesting. Obviously Djokovic's 41% return games won is out of this world for this year :shock:

Here you have all the numbers:
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Matchfacts/Matchfacts-Landing.aspx
For some reason a lot of people still claim Nadal is a bad returner (and then conclude nonsense that he would not have a chance against guys like Sampras...).

However, he has the 2nd best career percentage in return games won ever. On clay he is the all time best in return games won, points won on 1s serve and points won on 2nd serve!

Well his return game - the shot itself - isn't that great. He usually stands pretty far back and gets the ball back in play. Because of his defensive abilities, this works for him. He's able to get himself into long rallies with people, even if he can't neutralize the serve and has to start the point on defense. Also, stats on clay mean nothing about his overall game, as we already know he's the king of clay. Obviously the stats are tilted extremely to his favor there.

 

[Andres]

41% return games won in the men's tour is nearly insane!

Nadal and Federer have both fallen off vs last year.

If he can keep it up for the remaining two months, it'll be a Open Era record, beating Coria's 39% 5 or 6 years ago.

 

[vernonbc]

For some reason a lot of people still claim Nadal is a bad returner (and then conclude nonsense that he would not have a chance against guys like Sampras...).

However, he has the 2nd best career percentage in return games won ever. On clay he is the all time best in return games won, points won on 1s serve and points won on 2nd serve!

For some reason a lot of people claim Nadal is a bad server, a bad returner, a bad volleyer, a bad whatever and that he doesn't have a chance against pretty much anybody. :roll:

Meanwhile, his stats in just about everything are near the top of any list and he remains one of the very best tennis players ever but most of the posters on this forum don't let facts get in the way of their rhetoric.

 

[DRII]

Nadal and Federer have both fallen off vs last year.

Exactly!!!

Can't see your 1x1 pixel, therefore I wont comment...

 

[DRII]

nadal's return games % won is actually higher by quite a bit ( as of now ), his service games % won has gone down by quite a bit ....

federer's is similar ( 89 and 27 ) in 2010 and 2011 ( so far ) ....

But then why let facts get in the way of your perceptions !?

Losing the advantage on your serve is far worse than gaining some advantage on your return!

Really, the stats show that serving has gown down overall vs last year.

 

[DRII]

Wow! Nadal improved return games by 8% in 2011 vs. 2010. This proves Nadal is nowhere near decline.

You're obviously horrible at numbers, yet you constantly bring up 'data' as your focal point. Just admit that you bend the 'data' to fit your own perceptions!

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

You're obviously horrible at numbers, yet you constantly bring up 'data' as your focal point. Just admit that you bend the 'data' to fit your own perceptions!

No, I think I'll take your approach. I don't feel I'm horrible with numbers therefore I must be right.

 

[DRII]

No, I think I'll take your approach. I don't feel I'm horrible with numbers therefore I must be right.

What you can't or won't comprehend is that what you call feeling, which is more accurately referred to as qualitative judgement, is not right or wrong and can certainly not be proven one way or the other!

Yes, my qualitative judgment is that this year's tennis has been lower overall than last year! And i don't care what you say about it, that is my opinion. You may disagree or agree, again i really don't care.

However, it would be nice if you could participate in an intelligent discussion without trolling or bringing up false fallacies...

 

[InspectorRacquet]

These statistics are very interesting. It proves that Federer's prime was from '04-'07 (because some don't believe that). Rafa's 2009 and 2011 years are nearly identical in terms of serve/return percentage games won (where he places second in both years). Therefore, the data suggests Rafa would have a better time regaining the world #1 position if he held his service games more and broke others' serves less, rather than lowering service holds in favor of more return games won.

 

[abmk]

Losing the advantage on your serve is far worse than gaining some advantage on your return!

Really, the stats show that serving has gown down overall vs last year.

yes, but they also show nadal's return games won % has gone up. Federer's numbers are identical ( so far )

Fact is you didn't even see the numbers, just assumed that the numbers of nadal and federer have gone down ....

That was my point.

 

[DRII]

yes, but they also show nadal's return games won % has gone up. Federer's numbers are identical ( so far )

Fact is you didn't even see the numbers, just assumed that the numbers of nadal and federer have gone down ....

That was my point.

Well your point is kind of invalid. I actually focused on serve games won %, which Nadal and Federer are lower than last year!

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

What you can't or won't comprehend is that what you call feeling, which is more accurately referred to as qualitative judgement, is not right or wrong and can certainly not be proven one way or the other!

Yes, my qualitative judgment is that this year's tennis has been lower overall than last year! And i don't care what you say about it, that is my opinion. You may disagree or agree, again i really don't care.

However, it would be nice if you could participate in an intelligent discussion without trolling or bringing up false fallacies...

You seem capable of seeing only one side of the coin. This year's tennis has NOT been lower overall than last year. That it cannot be proven right or wrong is what I've been telling you from the beginning, but you never understood it. I told you over and over again that all subjective assessments cancel out since neither can be proven. Hence all we are left with are the data. But I get the feeling you still won't get it.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

Another stat with Federer overall on top.

 

[DRII]

You seem capable of seeing only one side of the coin. This year's tennis has NOT been lower overall than last year. That it cannot be proven right or wrong is what I've been telling you from the beginning, but you never understood it. I told you over and over again that all subjective assessments cancel out since neither can be proven. Hence all we are left with are the data. But I get the feeling you still won't get it.

Again with your 'data' B.S.!

You have proven that you will certainly delve into the realm of hypotheticals or subjectivity when it suits your position! E.g. your pure conjecture that Federer would have won the 2008 Wimbledon final if it did not get dark during the last set!

Hypocrite!!!

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

Again with your 'data' B.S.!

You have proven that you will certainly delve into the realm of hypotheticals or subjectivity when it suits your position! E.g. your pure conjecture that Federer would have won the 2008 Wimbledon final if it did not get dark during the last set!

Hypocrite!!!

I am no hypocrite. I acknowledge that my claims of W2008 are conjecture. Of course I also take part in subjective evaluations, but I don't pretend that they represent any kind of truth. Unlike you who thinks ones feelings are fact. The data are what they are. Nadal's results in 2011 would have exceeded 2010 had it not been for the improved play of Djoker. Nadal is nowhere near decline, in fact he improved.

 

[FedError]

The ATP website was recently updated to include statistics from previous years', which I guess is where the artice sourced those figures.

Here is career service games won across all surfaces:

1. Ivo Karlovic 91.42%
2. Andy Roddick 90.50%
3. John Isner 89.68%
4. Pete Sampras 88.74%
5. Wayne Arthurs 88.24%
6. Roger Federer 87.84%
7. Richard Krajicek 87.21%
8. Jo-Wilfried Tsonga 86.61%
9. Greg Rusedski 86.49%
10. Boris Becker 85.76%

Goran is 11th and Nadal is 15th.


Career return games won across all surfaces:

1. Guillermo Coria 35%
2. Rafael Nadal 33%
3. Alberto Berasategui 32%
4. Filippo Volandri 32%
5. David Ferrer 32%
6. Andy Murray 32%
7. Jordi Arrese 32%
8. Andre Agassi 32%
9. Thomas Muster 32%
10. Michael Chang 32%

 

[MichaelNadal]

^ Love your TS4 Avatar man

 

[abmk]

Well your point is kind of invalid. I actually focused on serve games won %, which Nadal and Federer are lower than last year!

yes, this post of yours proves that you focused on the service games % won this year ? :lol:.

41% return games won in the men's tour is nearly insane!

Nadal and Federer have both fallen off vs last year.

Give it up, will you !?

Secondly, can you read ? I already mentioned federer's service games won % is identical so far, 89% in 2010 and 2011 ( so is return games %, 27% )

Hint: Check the ATP website , the 'article' does not list the % for federer in 2011

 

[Biscuitmcgriddleson]

For some reason a lot of people claim Nadal is a bad server, a bad returner, a bad volleyer, a bad whatever and that he doesn't have a chance against pretty much anybody. :roll:

Meanwhile, his stats in just about everything are near the top of any list and he remains one of the very best tennis players ever but most of the posters on this forum don't let facts get in the way of their rhetoric.

His serve percentage is more or less tied to him being able to grind out points. I rarely see him win games in 4 or 5 points. Not a bad returner, but he does have more problem with bigger serves than Federer or Djokovic do/did. He isn't a BAD volleyer, but like Federer his volleys are glorified by his fanbase only using percentages rather than their eyes and mind to judge his skills. He doesn't come in frequently. People say that is due to a lack of versatility in his net game that he only comes in for sure things. Hard to say, but it seems to be more fact than fiction.

 

[Clay lover]

The ATP website was recently updated to include statistics from previous years', which I guess is where the artice sourced those figures.

Here is career service games won across all surfaces:

1. Ivo Karlovic 91.42%
2. Andy Roddick 90.50%
3. John Isner 89.68%
4. Pete Sampras 88.74%
5. Wayne Arthurs 88.24%
6. Roger Federer 87.84%
7. Richard Krajicek 87.21%
8. Jo-Wilfried Tsonga 86.61%
9. Greg Rusedski 86.49%
10. Boris Becker 85.76%

Goran is 11th and Nadal is 15th.


Career return games won across all surfaces:

1. Guillermo Coria 35%
2. Rafael Nadal 33%
3. Alberto Berasategui 32%
4. Filippo Volandri 32%
5. David Ferrer 32%
6. Andy Murray 32%
7. Jordi Arrese 32%
8. Andre Agassi 32%
9. Thomas Muster 32%
10. Michael Chang 32%

Damn, Guillermo Coria was really THE MAN when it came to grinding out games. Too bad he is probably last in career service games won % LOL

 

[vernonbc]

His serve percentage is more or less tied to him being able to grind out points. I rarely see him win games in 4 or 5 points. Not a bad returner, but he does have more problem with bigger serves than Federer or Djokovic do/did. He isn't a BAD volleyer, but like Federer his volleys are glorified by his fanbase only using percentages rather than their eyes and mind to judge his skills. He doesn't come in frequently. People say that is due to a lack of versatility in his net game that he only comes in for sure things. Hard to say, but it seems to be more fact than fiction.

Yep, that Nadal has more problem with bigger serves than Fed or Djokovic (sic). Where are they on this list???

Career return games won across all surfaces:

1. Guillermo Coria 35%
2. Rafael Nadal 33%
3. Alberto Berasategui 32%
4. Filippo Volandri 32%
5. David Ferrer 32%
6. Andy Murray 32%
7. Jordi Arrese 32%
8. Andre Agassi 32%
9. Thomas Muster 32%
10. Michael Chang 32%

As I said, don't let the facts get in the way of your rhetoric. :roll:

And who are these "people" who say Nadal lacks versatility in his net game? I have heard many many people say that Nadal is one of the best volleyers they've seen and that he has a terrific net game. John McEnroe for one raves about Rafa's ability to volley all the time.

 

[nadalwon2012]

Yep, that Nadal has more problem with bigger serves than Fed or Djokovic (sic). Where are they on this list???

Career return games won across all surfaces:

1. Guillermo Coria 35%
2. Rafael Nadal 33%
3. Alberto Berasategui 32%
4. Filippo Volandri 32%
5. David Ferrer 32%
6. Andy Murray 32%
7. Jordi Arrese 32%
8. Andre Agassi 32%
9. Thomas Muster 32%
10. Michael Chang 32%

As I said, don't let the facts get in the way of your rhetoric. :roll:

And who are these "people" who say Nadal lacks versatility in his net game? I have heard many many people say that Nadal is one of the best volleyers they've seen and that he has a terrific net game. John McEnroe for one raves about Rafa's ability to volley all the time.

This thread has a new owner.

 

[DRII]

yes, this post of yours proves that you focused on the service games % won this year ? :lol:.



Give it up, will you !?

Secondly, can you read ? I already mentioned federer's service games won % is identical so far, 89% in 2010 and 2011 ( so is return games %, 27% )

Hint: Check the ATP website , the 'article' does not list the % for federer in 2011

Can you walk and chew gum at the same time? Maybe not...

Yes, Nole's return games % won this year is insane. And yes Nadal and Federer have performed wost this year, in several aspects including serving (this is my opinion no matter what the percentages might say)!

That was the info presented; if Federer actually has the same % of service games won, why was he not listed for 2011???

 

[Wolfman Jack]

I am no hypocrite. I acknowledge that my claims of W2008 are conjecture. Of course I also take part in subjective evaluations, but I don't pretend that they represent any kind of truth. Unlike you who thinks ones feelings are fact. The data are what they are. Nadal's results in 2011 would have exceeded 2010 had it not been for the improved play of Djoker. Nadal is nowhere near decline, in fact he improved.

This is kind of moronic, really. You are basically subtracting Djoker from the equation and claiming that, based on your conjecture, Nadal would have done better than last year. Even if this is true, you fail to look at the state of the other people on tour. Let's assume Nadal would have won more than last year. Does that mean that his game is just as good as last year? No, of course not.

If had watched some tennis this year and last year, maybe you would understand how stupid this is. Djoker has taken a big leap forward, but Nadal has declined a lot compared with last year. I don't like the word decline in this context because it almost implies a non-reversible long-term deterioration, which is not always necessarily true. Nadal declined in 2009 with respect to 2008, and again he declined a lot in 2011 with respect to 2010. No amount of number crunching will convince me otherwise, I actually watch the matches.

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

This is kind of moronic, really. You are basically subtracting Djoker from the equation and claiming that, based on your conjecture, Nadal would have done better than last year. Even if this is true, you fail to look at the state of the other people on tour. Let's assume Nadal would have won more than last year. Does that mean that his game is just as good as last year? No, of course not.

If had watched some tennis this year and last year, maybe you would understand how stupid this is. Djoker has taken a big leap forward, but Nadal has declined a lot compared with last year. I don't like the word decline in this context because it almost implies a non-reversible long-term deterioration, which is not always necessarily true. Nadal declined in 2009 with respect to 2008, and again he declined a lot in 2011 with respect to 2010. No amount of number crunching will convince me otherwise, I actually watch the matches.

Sighhhhh, some people will just never get it. It took DRII months to finally admit that his feelings were opinions not facts. I don't have the patience to tutor yet another neophyte.

p.s. I watch more tennis than you.

 

[Wolfman Jack]

Sighhhhh, some people will just never get it. It took DRII months to finally admit that his feelings were opinions not facts. I don't have the patience to tutor yet another neophyte.

p.s. I watch more tennis than you.

What does DRII have to do with this? Can't you have a normal conversation without bringing other people up?

I made some very simple statements in my previous post.

The bottom line is: Get a TV and start watching TV, friendo.

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

What does DRII have to do with this? Can't you have a normal conversation without bringing other people up?

I made some very simple statements in my previous post.

The bottom line is: Get a TV and start watching TV, friendo.

I got here the same way the coin did.

 

[beast of mallorca]

Sighhhhh, some people will just never get it. It took DRII months to finally admit that his feelings were opinions not facts. I don't have the patience to tutor yet another neophyte.

p.s. I watch more tennis than you.

Maybe that's why you have a pungent social trait. Maybe you should play more tennis with people rather than watch it. It will not only improve your tennis, it may also improve your social skills. Just saying.

 

[abmk]

Can you walk and chew gum at the same time? Maybe not...

geez, what a stupid analogy

Nadal and Federer have both fallen off vs last year.

where on earth this anywhere mention 'serve' ?

Yes, Nole's return games % won this year is insane. And yes Nadal and Federer have performed wost this year, in several aspects including serving (this is my opinion no matter what the percentages might say)!

That was the info presented; if Federer actually has the same % of service games won, why was he not listed for 2011???

maybe if you actually paid a little bit of attention to what was posted instead of staying in your own world of perceptions, you'd notice the stats are for the top 3 players every year ( federer is #4 now )

P.S. What your perceptions are is one thing, what the stats are is another. But don't say wrong things based on stats in a thread about stats ....

 

[Benhur]

Yep, that Nadal has more problem with bigger serves than Fed or Djokovic (sic). Where are they on this list???

Career return games won across all surfaces:

1. Guillermo Coria 35%
2. Rafael Nadal 33%
3. Alberto Berasategui 32%
4. Filippo Volandri 32%
5. David Ferrer 32%
6. Andy Murray 32%
7. Jordi Arrese 32%
8. Andre Agassi 32%
9. Thomas Muster 32%
10. Michael Chang 32%

As I said, don't let the facts get in the way of your rhetoric. :roll:
.

This is what happens: What’s understood by "a good returner" is usually based on a narrow definition. If you look at the names on list ranked by percentage of service games won, you see they are all very good servers.

You should expect that the list by percentage of return games won would, likewise, contain very good returners. And in fact it does, IF you take a broader, practical perspective to what a good returner is.

Someone who makes frequent flashy returns for winners, or to gain the advantage right away, is not necessarily a great returner unless he can do that often enough to win him a high percentage of return games, in which case he should appear high on that list. Of course, if you can hit a winner off the return, that’s great any time you can do it. But the question is: how often can you do it? And especially this: What do you do between one return winner and the next?

Many of the names on that list are very good returners not because they hit a lot of flashy returns, but because they are able to put the the ball back in play in a way that the opponent cannot easily attack. That's the most important ability you can have as a returner. In other words, they know how to use the return to simply cancel the advantage of the server and bring the point to neutral, and they can do this more consistently than many of the ones who have flashier returns. It doesn't look like a spectacular ability, but it is by far the most important one as a returner.

 

[abmk]

Yep, that Nadal has more problem with bigger serves than Fed or Djokovic (sic). Where are they on this list???

Career return games won across all surfaces:

1. Guillermo Coria 35%
2. Rafael Nadal 33%
3. Alberto Berasategui 32%
4. Filippo Volandri 32%
5. David Ferrer 32%
6. Andy Murray 32%
7. Jordi Arrese 32%
8. Andre Agassi 32%
9. Thomas Muster 32%
10. Michael Chang 32%

As I said, don't let the facts get in the way of your rhetoric. :roll:

huh, care to check nadal's stats for grass and hard ?

hard: 29%
grass:23%

Nadal's overall return stats are bloated by his clay stats. ( 43% )

Of course return games % is bound to be higher on clay, but the difference is too much and that's because he's dominant on clay

Care to account for the fact that nadal does better after putting the serve back in play more than almost anyone else ??? Its not his return as a single stroke that is very good ( its good, but not among the greatest ) , but his return game as a whole that is excellent.

His return is good, but he does have more problems with returning big serves when compared to fed/djoker/murray.

And who are these "people" who say Nadal lacks versatility in his net game? I have heard many many people say that Nadal is one of the best volleyers they've seen and that he has a terrific net game. John McEnroe for one raves about Rafa's ability to volley all the time.

LOL, one of the best volleyers ? seriously ? He's decent at the net, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[DRII]

This is kind of moronic, really. You are basically subtracting Djoker from the equation and claiming that, based on your conjecture, Nadal would have done better than last year. Even if this is true, you fail to look at the state of the other people on tour. Let's assume Nadal would have won more than last year. Does that mean that his game is just as good as last year? No, of course not.

If had watched some tennis this year and last year, maybe you would understand how stupid this is. Djoker has taken a big leap forward, but Nadal has declined a lot compared with last year. I don't like the word decline in this context because it almost implies a non-reversible long-term deterioration, which is not always necessarily true. Nadal declined in 2009 with respect to 2008, and again he declined a lot in 2011 with respect to 2010. No amount of number crunching will convince me otherwise, I actually watch the matches.

Thank you for schooling him!

 

[DRII]

Sighhhhh, some people will just never get it. It took DRII months to finally admit that his feelings were opinions not facts. I don't have the patience to tutor yet another neophyte.

p.s. I watch more tennis than you.

I fully understand my opinion is, just that, my opinion. I have never stated otherwise!

You're the one who claims to find it impossible to make subjective or qualitative judgements but can only moronically deal with 'data'! Although, as i have pointed out, you hypocritically conjecture all the time.

Why even participate on a discussion board, if you refuse to make any subjective analysis???

Please get a clue!

 

[Benhur]

huh, care to check nadal's stats for grass and hard ?

hard: 29%
grass:23%
.

Right but those are high percentages as well, about 7 percentage points above the field on each of those surfaces.

 

[Netzroller]

huh, care to check nadal's stats for grass and hard ?

hard: 29%
grass:23%

Nadal's overall return stats are bloated by his clay stats. ( 43% )

Of course return games % is bound to be higher on clay, but the difference is too much and that's because he's dominant on clay

Huh, care to check it yourself?

Federer:
hard: 27%
grass: 25%

Why is the difference 'too much'? Of course clay is his strongest surface but his stats on the other surfaces are not bad either.
You might notice that his return games won on hardcourt is higher than Federer's (and this guy is widely considered to be the greatest hc-player ever). So he seems to be doing pretty well as a returner across all surfaces.

Care to account for the fact that nadal does better after putting the serve back in play more than almost anyone else ??? Its not his return as a single stroke that is very good ( its good, but not among the greatest ) , but his return game as a whole that is excellent.

Sure, everyone who watches him play knows that. Getting the ball back in almost everytime in such a way that the server hardly has any advantage is sign of a very good return. This is exactly the skill you need against big servers

His return is good, but he does have more problems with returning big serves when compared to fed/djoker/murray.

Federer 9 - 1 Karlovic
Murray 3 - 0 Karlovic
Djokovic 1 - 1 Karlovic
Nadal 4 - 0 Karlovic

Federer 2 - 0 Isner
Murray 2 - 0 Isner
Djokovic 2 - 0 Isner
Nadal 3 - 0 Isner

Federer 20 - 2 Roddick
Murray 7 - 3 Roddick
Djokovic 3 - 5 Roddick
Nadal 7 - 3 Roddick

So why does he have arguably the best H2H records against Isner and Karlovic and the second best against Roddick?
Not to forget that he is doing pretty well against Federer (also a good server), too.

 

[DRII]

geez, what a stupid analogy

Nadal and Federer have both fallen off vs last year.

where on earth this anywhere mention 'serve' ?



maybe if you actually paid a little bit of attention to what was posted instead of staying in your own world of perceptions, you'd notice the stats are for the top 3 players every year ( federer is #4 now )

P.S. What your perceptions are is one thing, what the stats are is another. But don't say wrong things based on stats in a thread about stats ....

I did not state anything based on stats besides the actual stat that I quoted regarding Nole's return winning %. All i said in the cited exchange was "Nadal and Federer have both fallen off vs last year"; perhaps you should stop making assumptions. However, I will admit that I did not know the stats were for just the top 3 players of each year. I thought Federer's serve stats dropped out of the top 3 and thats why his stats were not there for 2011.

Although, i must say, I am very surprised that Federer's return and serve stats are the same as last year. He has not dropped his level as much as Nadal vs a year ago but he has dropped (IMO, regardless of what any statistics say).

 

[abmk]

Huh, care to check it yourself?

Federer:
hard: 27%
grass: 25%

Why is the difference 'too much'? Of course clay is his strongest surface but his stats on the other surfaces are not bad either.
You might notice that his return games won on hardcourt is higher than Federer's (and this guy is widely considered to be the greatest hc-player ever). So he seems to be doing pretty well as a returner across all surfaces.

yes, he's good as a returner across surfaces, but not among the best. His clay stats bloating his overall return games % seem to suggest he is among the best, but he's not.

re: federer vs nadal on HC, federer has gone deeper into the HC tournaments more often, which reduces his stats. He's also done much better in the fast HC seasons ( after wimbledon ), where nadal is quite a bit lesser, meaning federer faces the better players more often ....

There's also the fact that federer holds serve more easily, meaning he doesn't have to ( and doesn't ) have to bother that much about return games after getting a break when compared to nadal

Sure, everyone who watches him play knows that. Getting the ball back in almost everytime in such a way that the server hardly has any advantage is sign of a very good return. This is exactly the skill you need against big servers

yes, and he struggles to get the returns into play against big serves at times , more than the likes of federer/djokovic/murray do. That was my point.

Federer 9 - 1 Karlovic
Murray 3 - 0 Karlovic
Djokovic 1 - 1 Karlovic
Nadal 4 - 0 Karlovic

Federer 2 - 0 Isner
Murray 2 - 0 Isner
Djokovic 2 - 0 Isner
Nadal 3 - 0 Isner

Federer 20 - 2 Roddick
Murray 7 - 3 Roddick
Djokovic 3 - 5 Roddick
Nadal 7 - 3 Roddick

So why does he have arguably the best H2H records against Isner and Karlovic and the second best against Roddick?
Not to forget that he is doing pretty well against Federer (also a good server), too.

care to check nadal's first serve return % points won against those servers when they are serving well: example: karlovic queens 2008, roddick miami 2010, roddick YEC 2010 or even some of the murray matches ?

 

[abmk]

I did not state anything based on stats besides the actual stat that I quoted regarding Nole's return winning %. All i said in the cited exchange was "Nadal and Federer have both fallen off vs last year"; perhaps you should stop making assumptions.

When the thread heading is % of service games held and return games won, what else is one supposed to assume ?

However, I will admit that I did not know the stats were for just the top 3 players of each year. I thought Federer's serve stats dropped out of the top 3 and thats why his stats were not there for 2011.

Although, i must say, I am very surprised that Federer's return and serve stats are the same as last year. He has not dropped his level as much as Nadal vs a year ago but he has dropped (IMO, regardless of what any statistics say).

^^my point , you did not look into the stats before commenting ...

 

[Benhur]

huh, care to check nadal's stats for grass and hard ?

hard: 29%
grass:23%

Nadal's overall return stats are bloated by his clay stats. ( 43% )
.

His average percentage of return games won (all surfaces) is 10 points lower than it is on clay but only 4 points higher than on hard courts, so “bloating” is a bloated word here. Nadal is about 9-10 percentage points above the field on percentage of return games won overall, and 7 perecentage points above the field on grass and hard courts. It's hard to be overly bloated from a surface on which you played about 37% of your total games.

You also make it sound as if returners on clay didn’t have to overcome any advantage by the server. Yet servers on clay still win about 75% of the games against the field (but 57% against Nadal). If you are measuring return performance, then return stats are not irrelevant regardless of surface.

 

[Wolfman Jack]

Thank you for schooling him!

I am doing it pro bono (given his special needs.)