Players percentages of service games held and return games won

[abmk]

His average percentage of return games won (all surfaces) is 10 points lower than it is on clay but only 4 points higher than on hard courts, so “bloating” is a bloated word here. Nadal is about 9-10 percentage points above the field on percentage of return games won overall, and 7 perecentage points above the field on grass and hard courts. It's hard to be overly bloated from a surface on which you played about 37% of your total games.

not that hard if someone is as dominant as nadal is on clay. Pretty sure borg's case would be somewhat similar.

You also make it sound as if returners on clay didn’t have to overcome any advantage by the server. Yet servers on clay still win about 75% of the games against the field (but 57% against Nadal). If you are measuring return performance, then return stats are not irrelevant regardless of surface.

its not irrelevant, but its the surface where the return as a standalone shot is of the least significance. I'd give a lot more credit to his ground game than his return here .....

 

[DRII]

When the thread heading is % of service games held and return games won, what else is one supposed to assume ?



^^my point , you did not look into the stats before commenting ...

I understand what you're saying, but you are still making assumptions. I would have commented (and have commented) on Nadal's noticeable decline and that of Federer's (to a lesser extent) regardless of which stats are or were presented!

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

I fully understand my opinion is, just that, my opinion. I have never stated otherwise!

You're the one who claims to find it impossible to make subjective or qualitative judgements but can only moronically deal with 'data'! Although, as i have pointed out, you hypocritically conjecture all the time.

Why even participate on a discussion board, if you refuse to make any subjective analysis???

Please get a clue!

Backtracking now I see. From the very beginning I told you your subjective interpretations were meaningless and you kept denying it. Only now do you realize.

 

[Benhur]

not that hard if someone is as dominant as nadal is on clay. Pretty sure borg's case would be somewhat similar.

If domination by surface translates into “bloating”, then you would have to extend the notion of bloating to many other cases that are much more clear. Consider: Nadal's percentage of return games won overall is 4 points higher than his percentage on hard courts. By comparison, Djokovic percentage of return games won overall this year is 7 points higher on hard courts than it is on clay, which brings his all surface results 6 points higher than on clay (in addition, he plays much more on hard courts than on clay, like most everyone else). Yet I never heard anyone suggest that Djokovic’s numbers are “bloated” by hard court results.

 

[DRII]

Backtracking now I see. From the very beginning I told you your subjective interpretations were meaningless and you kept denying it. Only now do you realize.

No one's subjective interpertations, more commonly referred to as opinions, are meaningless (particularly on a discussion board). Another postulate you fail to realize and thus do not inherently add merit to any discussion.

Again, get a clue!

 

[DjokovicForTheWin]

No one's subjective interpertations, more commonly referred to as opinions, are meaningless (particularly on a discussion board). Another postulate you fail to realize and thus do not inherently add merit to any discussion.

Again, get a clue!

They are meaningless in determining the truth value of something.

 

[Biscuitmcgriddleson]

Yep, that Nadal has more problem with bigger serves than Fed or Djokovic (sic). Where are they on this list???

Career return games won across all surfaces:

1. Guillermo Coria 35%
2. Rafael Nadal 33%
3. Alberto Berasategui 32%
4. Filippo Volandri 32%
5. David Ferrer 32%
6. Andy Murray 32%
7. Jordi Arrese 32%
8. Andre Agassi 32%
9. Thomas Muster 32%
10. Michael Chang 32%

As I said, don't let the facts get in the way of your rhetoric. :roll:

And who are these "people" who say Nadal lacks versatility in his net game? I have heard many many people say that Nadal is one of the best volleyers they've seen and that he has a terrific net game. John McEnroe for one raves about Rafa's ability to volley all the time.

Where are they? In the later rounds of hard court majors........ A place that Nadal infrequently visits. As others have said, his clay stats boost the overall number. If Nadal was such a great returner, then there would have been NO REASON for him to not blossom on hard courts at a much earlier age. You said it youself, people say Nadal has a bad serve. If he's so great at everything where was he? Was his movement inferior? Nope. So I guess that based on stats Rafa is the best volleyer in the game ever right? His number are higher than McEnroe's for the most part. What's that you say? He comes in maybe 7 times a match to finish off floaters? Ohhhhhhh I guess numbers don't say everything do they.

 

[vernonbc]

Maybe that's why you have a pungent social trait. Maybe you should play more tennis with people rather than watch it. It will not only improve your tennis, it may also improve your social skills. Just saying.

"Pungent social trait". Bwahahah!!! I love that. So descriptive and so apt. :lol:

 

[abmk]

If domination by surface translates into “bloating”, then you would have to extend the notion of bloating to many other cases that are much more clear. Consider: Nadal's percentage of return games won overall is 4 points higher than his percentage on hard courts. By comparison, Djokovic percentage of return games won overall this year is 7 points higher on hard courts than it is on clay, which brings his all surface results 6 points higher than on clay (in addition, he plays much more on hard courts than on clay, like most everyone else). Yet I never heard anyone suggest that Djokovic’s numbers are “bloated” by hard court results.

because in general, its easier to return on clay than on hard courts.

Besides you are focusing too much on the return games won % as a proof of how good the return is. The return is only a part of it.

 

[vernonbc]

Where are they? In the later rounds of hard court majors........ A place that Nadal infrequently visits. As others have said, his clay stats boost the overall number.

The later rounds of hard court majors is a place that Nadal infrequently visits???? LOL You're just too funny. You're talking about the youngest man to win a career slam in the open era. That career slam includes hard court majors.

Since 2006, when he was 20 years old, he missed the Australian in 06 and was injured in 10 and 11. In 07, 08 and 09 he reached the quarters, the semis and then won. At the USO, he reached quarters, 4th round, semis, semis, WIN, and final.

I seem to recall a lot of talk when Federer got knocked out in the quarters of Wimbledon and the French Open that quarters was a good result, and of course semis was wonderful - Roger was the god of semis, but now for Rafa that's not considered a late round visit?? Okey dokey.

As for Rafa's record on hard courts, he has the 5th best record on tour this year and he is #13 on the all time list of career winning percentage. So enough about this nonsense of Rafa being so bad on hard courts. It's not his best surface but he is very very good, one of the best in the world and of all-time.

 

[Clarky21]

The later rounds of hard court majors is a place that Nadal infrequently visits???? LOL You're just too funny. You're talking about the youngest man to win a career slam in the open era. That career slam includes hard court majors.

Since 2006, when he was 20 years old, he missed the Australian in 06 and was injured in 10 and 11. In 07, 08 and 09 he reached the quarters, the semis and then won. At the USO, he reached quarters, 4th round, semis, semis, WIN, and final.

I seem to recall a lot of talk when Federer got knocked out in the quarters of Wimbledon and the French Open that quarters was a good result, and of course semis was wonderful - Roger was the god of semis, but now for Rafa that's not considered a late round visit?? Okey dokey.

As for Rafa's record on hard courts, he has the 5th best record on tour this year and he is #13 on the all time list of career winning percentage. So enough about this nonsense of Rafa being so bad on hard courts. It's not his best surface but he is very very good, one of the best in the world and of all-time.

It's not "nonsense",and he is not "very very good" on hardcourts. In his entire career he has never ever defended one title off of clay yet you want us to believe he is some beast on hard courts when he is clearly not? He can be beaten by just about anyone with a decent serve,a solid 2 handed backhand,who hits a flatter ball,and who pushes him behind the baseline(he's usually already a mile behind it,anyway). He has always been vulnerable on hard courts because he tries to play topspin dirtball tennis instead of adapting his game to suit the surface more. His defense is mostly what has won him titles off of clay,but he cannot defend like his life depends on it like he used to be able to due to his decline. He will most likely never win another title off of clay,if he can even win those.

 

[nadalwon2012]

LOL how can you not be very very good on hardcourt yet win an AO, USO, Olympics, reach a World Tour Finals final, all on hardcourt? What is Murray on hardcourt? I'm pretty sure he is very very good, and therefore Nadal too. What about Federer on clay? Only defended ONE clay event, so not very very good on clay?

 

[Clarky21]

LOL how can you not be very very good on hardcourt yet win an AO, USO, Olympics, reach a World Tour Finals final, all on hardcourt? What is Murray on hardcourt? I'm pretty sure he is very very good, and therefore Nadal too. What about Federer on clay? Only defended ONE clay event, so not very very good on clay?

I already explained why he was able to win on hard courts. His defense and nothing more. Go back and watch the 2009 Aussie Open and tell me differently,and that is just one example of many. He was dirtballing throughout that entire slam just as he always does on hard courts.

And the one title Roger defended on clay is still more than the zero Nadal has defended off of clay. Roger was also able to defend multiple grass court titles as well. How about Nadal?

 

[Lsmkenpo]

Yep, that Nadal has more problem with bigger serves than Fed or Djokovic (sic). Where are they on this list???

Career return games won across all surfaces:

1. Guillermo Coria 35%
2. Rafael Nadal 33%
3. Alberto Berasategui 32%
4. Filippo Volandri 32%
5. David Ferrer 32%
6. Andy Murray 32%
7. Jordi Arrese 32%
8. Andre Agassi 32%
9. Thomas Muster 32%
10. Michael Chang 32%

As I said, don't let the facts get in the way of your rhetoric. :roll:

And who are these "people" who say Nadal lacks versatility in his net game? I have heard many many people say that Nadal is one of the best volleyers they've seen and that he has a terrific net game. John McEnroe for one raves about Rafa's ability to volley all the time.

What a joke, across all surfaces, half the players on this list are claycourt specialists. They played more matches on clay than the other surfaces because they lost early playing on the faster courts. So of course they have a higher percentage of return games won, they played the majority of their matches on clay.

Anyone who thinks this is a legitimate stat for gauging return of serve across all surfaces is ignorant.

Agassi, Murray and Ferrer are the players on this list with the best return of serve the others are only there because of the number of matches they played on clay.

 

[Clay lover]

What a joke, across all surfaces, half the players on this list are claycourt specialists. They played more matches on clay than the other surfaces because they lost early playing on the faster courts. So of course they have a higher percentage of return games won, they played the majority of their matches on clay.

Anyone who thinks this is a legitimate stat for gauging return of serve across all surfaces is ignorant.

Agassi, Murray and Ferrer are the players on this list with the best return of serve the others are only there because of the number of matches they played on clay.

Why doesn't Nadal qualify? He plays more than enough on hard and grass and it's not like he's terrible on those surfaces, he has achieved more than Murray and Ferrer.

 

[abmk]

Why doesn't Nadal qualify? He plays more than enough on hard and grass and it's not like he's terrible on those surfaces, he has achieved more than Murray and Ferrer.

no, nadal isn't in the group of elite returners . He's good, but not amongst the best. Surely anyone who's watched him enough with an unbiased eye can recognize that

 

[nadalwon2012]

I already explained why he was able to win on hard courts. His defense and nothing more. Go back and watch the 2009 Aussie Open and tell me differently,and that is just one example of many. He was dirtballing throughout that entire slam just as he always does on hard courts.

And the one title Roger defended on clay is still more than the zero Nadal has defended off of clay. Roger was also able to defend multiple grass court titles as well. How about Nadal?

Impossible to converse with you on this, you just said Nadal won his hardcourt slams 'on defense and nothing more'. The End.

 

[Lsmkenpo]

Why doesn't Nadal qualify? He plays more than enough on hard and grass and it's not like he's terrible on those surfaces, he has achieved more than Murray and Ferrer.

Because he isn't as good of a returner from a technical standpoint, Agassi, Murray and Ferrer return offensively hitting on the rise and moving into the court, Nadal stands way back, lets the ball slow down, and hopes for a neutral rally to grind the other player down.

 

[DRII]

I already explained why he was able to win on hard courts. His defense and nothing more. Go back and watch the 2009 Aussie Open and tell me differently,and that is just one example of many. He was dirtballing throughout that entire slam just as he always does on hard courts.

And the one title Roger defended on clay is still more than the zero Nadal has defended off of clay. Roger was also able to defend multiple grass court titles as well. How about Nadal?

Actually Nadal did win two Wimbledon championships, in which he competed, back to back.

And his 2010 USO win included plenty of offense!

I think you're being a little hard on Nadal because you've been disappointed by his performances and form this year (which have been lower than 2010).

 

[Clarky21]

Actually Nadal did win two Wimbledon championships, in which he competed, back to back.

And his 2010 USO win included plenty of offense!

I think you're being a little hard on Nadal because you've been disappointed by his performances and form this year (which have been lower than 2010).

He did not defend his 2008 Wimby title because he did not play it in 2009. He has never defended a title off of clay,and probably never will.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Impossible to converse with you on this, you just said Nadal won his hardcourt slams 'on defense and nothing more'. The End.

Lol Pwned

 

[Clarky21]

Lol Pwned

Then you and Bullzilla should prove me wrong. Nadal plays dirtball everywhere and on all surfaces. Prove to me that he doesn't,but I can bet you will have trouble doing it.

And playing somewhat offensively for 2 whole weeks(USO 2010)out of a 10 year long career does not a good hard court player make.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Then you and Bullzilla should prove me wrong. Nadal plays dirtball everywhere and on all surfaces. Prove to me that he doesn't,but I can bet you will have trouble doing it.

And playing somewhat offensively for 2 whole weeks(USO 2010)out of a 10 year long career does not a good hard court player make.

Nadal plays dirtball on grass? Nadal played dirtball at the WTF? Instead of criticizing him for playing the same style all the time, tell me who plays a different game on all surfaces these days? I can't wait to hear.

 

[Clarky21]

Nadal plays dirtball on grass? Nadal played dirtball at the WTF? Instead of criticizing him for playing the same style all the time, tell me who plays a different game on all surfaces these days? I can't wait to hear.

Yep,he dirtballs everywhere. The extreme claycourt spin,the standing in the crowd to return serve,him being a mile behind the baseline,the constant defensive mindedness,no depth on his groundstrokes,the WTA worthy serve all belong on claycourts. He has dirtballed in practically every tournament he has played this year. How you can deny that is beyond me.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Yep,he dirtballs everywhere. The extreme claycourt spin,the standing in the crowd to return serve,him being a mile behind the baseline,the constant defensive mindedness,no depth on his groundstrokes,the WTA worthy serve all belong on claycourts. He has dirtballed in practically every tournament he has played this year. How you can deny that is beyond me.

You can call it "dirtballing" but it's his defensive style. Is it most beneficial on clay? Sure. But you're attacking him for a silly reason. You gonna get on aggressive players for "hardcourting" on all surfaces all year too?

 

[Clarky21]

You can call it "dirtballing" but it's his defensive style. Is it most beneficial on clay? Sure. But you're attacking him for a silly reason. You gonna get on aggressive players for "hardcourting" on all surfaces all year too?

At least the aggressive players can get the ball past the service line,return serve,hit a decent serve once in a while,hit actual winners,and hit a decent backhand. Nadal has done each and every one of those things poorly all year long. Not to mention they don't have to run themselves around a mile behind the baseline like a jackrabbit on speed just to stay in matches. Do you really think this topspin dirtball style is going to prolong his career? Especially playing that way on hard courts? If anything,refusing to change at all is shortening his career by some margin.

 

[MichaelNadal]

At least the aggressive players can get the ball past the service line,return serve,hit a decent serve once in a while,hit actual winners,and hit a decent backhand. Nadal has done each and every one of those things poorly all year long. Not to mention they don't have to run themselves around a mile behind the baseline like a jackrabbit on speed just to stay in matches. Do you really think this topspin dirtball style is going to prolong his career? Especially playing that way on hard courts? If anything,refusing to change at all is shortening his career by some margin.

Are they number 2 in the world? His style must work for him. It has for over 6 years now.

 

[Clarky21]

Are they number 2 in the world? His style must work for him. It has for over 6 years now.

Nadal won't be number 2 himself for much longer. And he still needs to get more aggressive and stop the dirtballing on every surface garbage. He is not getting any younger,you know

 

[Benhur]

It’s very simple. You cannot win a return game unless you neutralize the advantage of the server. Neutralizing or cancelling the advantage of the server is the first and most essential task of the returner. People who have a high percentage of return games won, have that percentage because they can somehow cancel the advantage of the server better or more often than those who have lower percentages. You can’t have a high percentage of return games won if you’re a mediocre returner. That would be even more difficult than having a very high holding percentage while being a so-so server. There are no deep dark mysteries in it.

 

[piece]

It’s very simple. You cannot win a return game unless you neutralize the advantage of the server. Neutralizing or cancelling the advantage of the server is the first and most essential task of the returner. People who have a high percentage of return games won, have that percentage because they can somehow cancel the advantage of the server better or more often than those who have lower percentages. You can’t have a high percentage of return games won if you’re a mediocre returner. That would be even more difficult than having a very high holding percentage while being a so-so server. There are no deep dark mysteries in it.

I think your description might hide some of the complexity of the issue. In nadal's case a lot of the neutralizing of the server's advantage is achieved after the actual return itself. Nadal is able to do this without a great return because he is one of the best ralliers in history. Nadal does have a good return, but for the most part he only needs it to be good enough to prevent the server from finishing the point with a one-two punch right off the serve. After getting past that point, Nadal's superior movement and groundies kick in and allow him to neutralize the remaining advantage of the server.

 

[vernonbc]

no, nadal isn't in the group of elite returners . He's good, but not amongst the best. Surely anyone who's watched him enough with an unbiased eye can recognize that

Bwah!!! Your unbiased eyes sure see some strange things. Are the people who keep the stats which have Rafa with the 2nd best career % for winning return games (across all surfaces) the same ones who have slowed down every court in the world so he can win all his titles? Amazing how Rafa has had so much success when he's so bad at everything in your unbiased eye.

 

[billnepill]

It’s very simple. You cannot win a return game unless you neutralize the advantage of the server. Neutralizing or cancelling the advantage of the server is the first and most essential task of the returner. People who have a high percentage of return games won, have that percentage because they can somehow cancel the advantage of the server better or more often than those who have lower percentages. You can’t have a high percentage of return games won if you’re a mediocre returner. That would be even more difficult than having a very high holding percentage while being a so-so server. There are no deep dark mysteries in it.

I don't think it is that simple.

If let's say one has the ground game of Karlovic, even the best return shot won't give enough advantage when one engages in rallies.

If a player scores high percentage in return games won, it could mean he has an amazing return of serve. Alternatively, it could mean that the player has "good enough" return to put the ball back and to engage in rallies and win most of them.

Therefore, for the sake of the argument, one has to have a good return shot to make a good percentage, but someone with a better return shot could be lagging behind because of other deficiencies in their games.

 

[abmk]

Bwah!!! Your unbiased eyes sure see some strange things. Are the people who keep the stats which have Rafa with the 2nd best career % for winning return games (across all surfaces) the same ones who have slowed down every court in the world so he can win all his titles? Amazing how Rafa has had so much success when he's so bad at everything in your unbiased eye.

since when did I say rafa was bad at everything , clueless fanboy (or fangirl ? ) ?????

I just said he's a good returner, but not one amongst the best.

Regarding being top @ the no of return games won% : There are a hell lot of parameters to consider . Firstly the return is only part of the return games won. There are other factors like surface, players faced etc etc ..

No one would count berasategui or muster or volandri, who are there in the top 10 in that list amongst the best returners, not even close .....

Stop living in a la la land where supposedly everyone else is against your precious rafa ..... You keep playing the victim and yet keep on dissing the other players. It isn't even funny anymore !

 

[abmk]

I think your description might hide some of the complexity of the issue. In nadal's case a lot of the neutralizing of the server's advantage is achieved after the actual return itself. Nadal is able to do this without a great return because he is one of the best ralliers in history. Nadal does have a good return, but for the most part he only needs it to be good enough to prevent the server from finishing the point with a one-two punch right off the serve. After getting past that point, Nadal's superior movement and groundies kick in and allow him to neutralize the remaining advantage of the server.

^^ This

I don't think it is that simple.

If let's say one has the ground game of Karlovic, even the best return shot won't give enough advantage when one engages in rallies.

If a player scores high percentage in return games won, it could mean he has an amazing return of serve. Alternatively, it could mean that the player has "good enough" return to put the ball back and to engage in rallies and win most of them.

Therefore, for the sake of the argument, one has to have a good return shot to make a good percentage, but someone with a better return shot could be lagging behind because of other deficiencies in their games.

and this ....

 

[Tennis sensation]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...rtance-of-the-hold-and-return-game-since-1998

2010:
1. Rafael Nadal: 90% service games held, 29% return games won.
2. Roger Federer: 89% service games held, 27% returns games won.
3. Novak Djokovic: 82% service games held, 32% return games won.

2011:
1. Novak Djokovic 87% service games held, 41% return games won.
2. Rafael Nadal: 84% service games held, 35% return games won.
3. Andy Murray: 80% service games held, 37% return games won.

And from other years:

2004:
1. Roger Federer: 92/30
2. Lleyton Hewitt: 82/32
3. Andy Roddick: 91/22

2005:
1. Roger Federer: 89/31
2. Rafael Nadal: 84/38
3. Andy Roddick: 93/21

2006:
1. Roger Federer: 90/32
2. Rafael Nadal: 86/29
3. Nikolay Davydenko: 80/35

2007:
1. Roger Federer: 89/29
2. Rafael Nadal: 86/33
3. Novak Djokovic: 84/28

2008:
1. Rafael Nadal: 88/33
2. Roger Federer: 89/27
3. Novak Djokovic: 87/30

2009:
1. Roger Federer: 90/24
2. Rafael Nadal: 84/34
3. Novak Djokovic: 85/31

Amazing....

 

[vernonbc]

since when did I say rafa was bad at everything , clueless fanboy (or fangirl ? ) ?????

I just said he's a good returner, but not one amongst the best.

Regarding being top @ the no of return games won% : There are a hell lot of parameters to consider . Firstly the return is only part of the return games won. There are other factors like surface, players faced etc etc ..

No one would count berasategui or muster or volandri, who are there in the top 10 in that list amongst the best returners, not even close .....

Stop living in a la la land where supposedly everyone else is against your precious rafa ..... You keep playing the victim and yet keep on dissing the other players. It isn't even funny anymore !

Oh dear, your knickers are really in a knot. Just because Fed isn't at the top of the return games won stat, it's not necessary to diminish the accomplishments and abilities of those who are. I don't diss other players, not at all, and I think it's really funny that my reminders that Rafa is a very very good tennis player bother you so much. If my pro-Rafa posting rattles your coconuts so much, put me on ignore but your insults won't stop my being a fan of his.

 

[abmk]

Oh dear, your knickers are really in a knot. Just because Fed isn't at the top of the return games won stat, it's not necessary to diminish the accomplishments and abilities of those who are. I don't diss other players, not at all, and I think it's really funny that my reminders that Rafa is a very very good tennis player bother you so much. If my pro-Rafa posting rattles your coconuts so much, put me on ignore but your insults won't stop my being a fan of his.

I'm very good, thank you ....

In fact it is you who post like someone has stolen your candy when someone posts anything about your rafa not being among the best in any aspect ....

You can't answer to the arguments ...... LMAO regarding the fed mention. I'm pretty sure he'd take a 27% return games over all surfaces if it gives him 16 Grand slams, 5 YECs, many masters and titles ..... over the higher return games won % of the clay court specialists in berasategui, muster, volandri ......

Besides you need to get a clue that the surface matters quite a bit in this ....( there are quite a few other factors as well )

Let me know when you get a remotely more intelligent argument than return games won being the only indicator of how good a player's return is