Playing badly against weaker opposition??!!

Orion3

Semi-Pro
WHY?

I played a really strong player last night; great serve, strong groundstrokes of both wings. Competent (not great) volleyer. A really close game that I played really well in and edged in 2 close sets.

Last week I played two 'realtively' weaker players. Edged one in 3 and lost to the other in 3. They weren't bad players, they had sound strokes, but lacked power and were nowhere as accurate as the guy I played last night - honestly I just underperformed. I've played both of these guys a few times before and had beaten them every time previous, once 6-1, 6-1 but more often than not they are close.

This seems to be becoming a pattern with me. Against strong players I play well (don't always win, but invariably play well). Against relatively weaker players however, I seem to increasingly struggle. I can see their weaknesses and plan/play accordingly - but never seem to be able to execute. More often than not, I win but its not as comfortable as it could be??

Someone please enlighten me!!!!!:???::???::???::???:
 
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user92626

G.O.A.T.
They hit less power and accuracy..but you have a harder time?
That is puzzling. What about variety? Their variety could be so good that it made up for lack of power and accuracy while you mistook greatness as only power, accuracy, and got blind sided. Or you understimated them and let up. I dunno.
 

bigheadzjr

New User
I had the same problem back about 2 years ago. I do extremely well against power or heavy topspin players but struggle or even lost matches/tournaments to player who doesn't hit power or topspin shots. Now is a completely different story.

From what I've noticed is that the people/players that I normally hit with are either a power/constant flat hitters or heavy/high topspin player and NEVER do I take time to hit with the "not so powerful" players. It was till I actually played someone who was not a hard hitter, that I've realized that with the less powerful players made me rush or over hit the ball and not consistently watching my contact with racket and ball. It seems more as if they hit the ball with more placements and/or get the ball over the net, overall becoming a more consistent match. After losing a butt load of matches to not so powerful players, I realized that when I play again players that have less pace or a not so hard hitters that I needed a stroke to rely on for all situations.

my recommendation is to find a stroke (forehand and backhand) that you can hit that has good racket head speed (swoosh from racket) + 3-4 foot net clearance + comfortable swing that does not tire you out on a 2 out of 3 set match. Also consistency (footwork + prep + importantly EYES ON BALL/CONTACT POINT) and not RUSHING every shot helps a huge deal. Having a plan A-G helps too. A game plan can be simple as "attacking opponents backhand" or as a more complicated as "not hitting same shot more than 3 times"

hope this helps! :)
 

Orion3

Semi-Pro
What about variety? Their variety could be so good that it made up for lack of power and accuracy while you mistook greatness as only power, accuracy, and got blind sided. Or you understimated them and let up. I dunno.

Variety is there with all the players I'm talking about. They all play smart, percentage tennis. Just not to the same degree.

It seems more as if they hit the ball with more placements and/or get the ball over the net, overall becoming a more consistent match. After losing a butt load of matches to not so powerful players, I realized that when I play again players that have less pace or a not so hard hitters that I needed a stroke to rely on for all situations.

It's not just power - they guy I played last night was consistantly hitting within 3 feet of the baseline. I lost count of how many half-volley drives I had to hit from the baseline. His serve was better placed and varied (both power and spin). His rally balls were not only deep but wide; sliced, flat and topspin. I really had to play as well as I could; varying my style, S&V occasionally, backed by a strong baseline game. My return of serve last night was great, it had to be.

I know that he has very recently beaten the player I lost to 6-0, 6-0.

I just seem to raise my game against better players and struggle to concentrate and play consistantly against lesser players. Pretty certain its mental. Maybe I assume I should stuff them - I just never (rarely) seem to. UE's creep in, my 1st serve % drops off, I hit service returns long or wide... Last time round I found myself playing really tentative in the 3rd set. Playing (too) safe, not hitting out when opportunities were blindingly open/obvious, refusing net approach chances to kill off weak shots. Luckily, I realised what was happening and made a conscious effort and managed to turn things round.

Sooo frustrating.
 

bukaeast

Rookie
Are you sure that is isn't just power?
Is there a player you consider good, that plays with less power, that you can feel that you play up to?

Remember that lots of us lower level players, me not you, feel that we can play up with players that are supplying more of the power and pace. Just hitting it back gives great depth and weight which we are not used to with our regular foes.

Suggestion:
Try hitting with someone that doesn't give you power or pace and see if you can hold up consistently to your expectations.
 

Alchemy-Z

Hall of Fame
I always play better when I think the other guy is better because I feel I need to step my game up.

when I play weaker players I find myself making silly errors and not being as focused and it normally takes me getting behind in a set to kick start a come back.
 

mightyrick

Legend
Last week I played two 'realtively' weaker players. Edged one in 3 and lost to the other in 3. They weren't bad players, they had sound strokes, but lacked power and were nowhere as accurate as the guy I played last night - honestly I just underperformed.

Sounds like you aren't able to measure your shots and generate your own pace. You require your opponent to provide the pace for you. Pretty common problem. The only way you are going to get better is with experience and playing these types of people more often. If you have access to a ball machine, you can set it to half speed and use that for practice, too. That will probably help.

I think a lot of players get the idea that if they can hit great shots against hard hitters, that means they should be able to hit even better shots against soft hitters. That could not be farther from the truth. It takes way more skill to hit a low-to-no pace ball and put it where you want with the proper depth and pace.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
WHY?

I played a really strong player last night; great serve, strong groundstrokes of both wings. Competent (not great) volleyer. A really close game that I played really well in and edged in 2 close sets.

Last week I played two 'realtively' weaker players. Edged one in 3 and lost to the other in 3. They weren't bad players, they had sound strokes, but lacked power and were nowhere as accurate as the guy I played last night - honestly I just underperformed. I've played both of these guys a few times before and had beaten them every time previous, once 6-1, 6-1 but more often than not they are close.

This seems to be becoming a pattern with me. Against strong players I play well (don't always win, but invariably play well). Against relatively weaker players however, I seem to increasingly struggle. I can see their weaknesses and plan/play accordingly - but never seem to be able to execute. More often than not, I win but its not as comfortable as it could be??

Someone please enlighten me!!!!!:???::???::???::???:

Fret not! This is typical. Better still, there is a rational explanation and an easy fix.

You play better against better players because you execute you strokes better against them. Why? Because you don't have the pressure of feeling that you have to win or that you will feel bad or embarrassed if you lose to a lesser player. Conversely, the additional pressure of the fear of failure against a lesser player impairs your execution of your stroke production. It is the same thing that happens when you compare the way you play in practice matches and tournament or team matches. When the pressure is on, you get tight and the quality of the execution of your stroke production suffers - you don't move your feet, you don't set up, you don't properly execute your swing.

The fix is to focus on executing your shots, one shot at a time, and forget about winning and losing, and the score, every time you play, no matter who it is. If someone secretly videotaped you playing against a better player and a lesser player, you would be surprised at how much better you are executing against the better player, your footwork, shot preparation, swing technique, everything, would all be better against the better player. Focusing on execution when playing lesser players brings your attention back to the task at hand - fully executing your shots.
 
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LuckyR

Legend
Fret not! This is typical. Better still, there is a rational explanation and an easy fix.

You play better against better players because you execute you strokes better against them. Why? Because you don't have the pressure of feeling that you have to win or that you will feel bad or embarrassed if you lose to a lesser player. Conversely, the additional pressure of the fear of failure against a lesser player impairs your execution of your stroke production. It is the same thing that happens when you compare the way you play in practice matches and tournament or team matches. When the pressure is on, you get tight and the quality of the execution of your stroke production suffers - you don't move your feet, you don't set up, you don't properly execute your swing.

The fix is to focus on executing your shots, one shot at a time, and forget about winning and losing, and the score, every time you play, no matter who it is. If someone secretly videotaped you playing against a better player and a lesser player, you would be surprised at how much better you are executing against the better player, your footwork, shot preparation, swing technique, everything, would all be better against the better player. Focusing on execution when playing lesser players brings your attention back to the task at hand - fully executing your shots.


This is an excellent description of the Mental Game issues, but there are also Strategy and Tactics issues as well with this relatively common situation.

First things first, when you use "strong" and "weak" as labels, much of your audience, myself included, assume they are substitutes for "better" and "worse", when clearly they are not.

Reading between the lines of your description of the "weaker" players, sure they hit with less pace, but by less "accurate" it sounds like they weren't going for the lines (as many low pace hitters won't). This probably puts them in the "high consistancy" category.

Do a Search on: "I hate pushers", this issue has been done to death many times.
 

Orion3

Semi-Pro
Thanks limp. What you say makes a lot of sense.

I do expect to win and get frustrated when I don't or can't execute and this seems to lead to tightness and a close game.

Appreciate the advice

Onwards and upwards!

LuckyR - thanks for the input. These guys are not pushers. They are competent players that execute their strokes and gameplans. My problem has been that when playing a player that trashed one of them, I play to my potential...and with no fear. However, when I play one of them, I tighten up.

Hope this makes sense.
 
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Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
This is an excellent description of the Mental Game issues, but there are also Strategy and Tactics issues as well with this relatively common situation.

First things first, when you use "strong" and "weak" as labels, much of your audience, myself included, assume they are substitutes for "better" and "worse", when clearly they are not.

Reading between the lines of your description of the "weaker" players, sure they hit with less pace, but by less "accurate" it sounds like they weren't going for the lines (as many low pace hitters won't). This probably puts them in the "high consistancy" category.

Do a Search on: "I hate pushers", this issue has been done to death many times.

First, I didn't use the terms "strong," "weak," or "weaker." I used the terms "better" and "lesser." Clearly, no particular level of play was expressed or implied. Rather, it clearly described a relative level of play in comparison to Orion3. Second, I don't need to do a search on pushers. I've written much of the useful responses on TT about how to play against pushers, as well as numerous posts on tactics generally.
 
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dimensionnw

New User
most rec players really struggle to consistently create their own pace. So when they play a player who appears 'weaker' (translation: they hit it slower) they struggle. TBH hitting against pace IS easier in many ways as you just have to provide the accuracy rather than having to provide the accuracy and power for a slower ball

It's why pushers are very successful to a certain point IMO
 

texacali

Rookie
I know the issue well....to quote Mav in "Top Gun"..."If you think, you're dead". I believe I am an instinctual player; react and respond quickly which is probably why I like playing against pace and even on faster courts. Playing against softer hit balls, gives me too much time to think and that's where I blow it everytime.

I used to think "I am better than this" hitting against soft hitting players, but I realized since I am on the butt end of a butt whooping, I am not better than this and need to improve my game to adapt.
 

USS Tang

Rookie
Other than the obvious advice not to give your opponent balls he likes to hit, consider the following:

(1) Do not worry about the score; be more concerned about hitting the ball cleanly;

(2) If he is blowing you off the court, so be it; at least, you're not beating yourself;

(3) Keep track of your errors over the past two games at each change-over; it is not obsessive-compulsive behavior to make a written note of them; this will help you focus on avoiding future mistakes;

(4) Tell yourself that you want the ball to come back over the net to you; in other words, do not hope for a mistake from your opponent; and finally

(5) Try not to be nervous; do not temporize on your strokes; if you get ahead in the score, continue being aggressive.
 

10ismom

Semi-Pro
Could footwork be the issue since you have to run and get set to respond to those slower paced shorter balls?

Ball does not come deep so you have to hustle and get set to hit good shots.
 

Orion3

Semi-Pro
Guys , thanks for taking the time to respond. I do appreciate it.

Honestly, I think Limp has hit the nail on the head and the problem is between my ears.

When I hit with my 14 year old son, he has pretty much the same pace as they do. I can (but don't, hit winner after winner). Generating pace has never been an issue - I play with a 6.0 or a PSLGT because I don't want more power.

Hope to play them again soon; and will try to execute the point by point strategy. Thanks again.
 

LuckyR

Legend
First, I didn't use the terms "strong," "weak," or "weaker." I used the terms "better" and "lesser." Clearly, no particular level of play was expressed or implied. Rather, it clearly described a relative level of play in comparison to Orion3. Second, I don't need to do a search on pushers. I've written much of the useful responses on TT about how to play against pushers, as well as numerous posts on tactics generally.

Dude, I was commending your post and the rest was directed at the OP, not you. Sorry for being confusing.
 

Orion3

Semi-Pro
First things first, when you use "strong" and "weak" as labels, much of your audience, myself included, assume they are substitutes for "better" and "worse", when clearly they are not.

Reading between the lines of your description of the "weaker" players, sure they hit with less pace, but by less "accurate" it sounds like they weren't going for the lines (as many low pace hitters won't). This probably puts them in the "high consistancy" category.

Sorry, seems I wasn't clear either. I did actually mean better/worse. They also hit with less pace and their accuracy (going for the lines) is not as good as my last opponent.

That said, they are not pushers. They are competent players that try to work their points through to a planned end.
 

LuckyR

Legend
Sorry, seems I wasn't clear either. I did actually mean better/worse. They also hit with less pace and their accuracy (going for the lines) is not as good as my last opponent.

That said, they are not pushers. They are competent players that try to work their points through to a planned end.

Since we are in the mode of clarity let me participate as well:

The "better" player that you edged out in 2, was not "better" since you beat him. He was "worse" than you that day. Similarly, the "worse" player that beat you in 3 is/was "better" than you.

I don't like the "pusher" label since so many (especially on this Forum) use it perjoratively. IMO a better term (the one I used) is High Consistancy. But if you do a Search of that term you'll get little to nothing, but Pusher (around here) will net many, often useful, threads to peruse.
 
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Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
WHY?

I played a really strong player last night; great serve, strong groundstrokes of both wings. Competent (not great) volleyer. A really close game that I played really well in and edged in 2 close sets.

Last week I played two 'realtively' weaker players. Edged one in 3 and lost to the other in 3. They weren't bad players, they had sound strokes, but lacked power and were nowhere as accurate as the guy I played last night - honestly I just underperformed. I've played both of these guys a few times before and had beaten them every time previous, once 6-1, 6-1 but more often than not they are close.

This seems to be becoming a pattern with me. Against strong players I play well (don't always win, but invariably play well). Against relatively weaker players however, I seem to increasingly struggle. I can see their weaknesses and plan/play accordingly - but never seem to be able to execute. More often than not, I win but its not as comfortable as it could be??

Someone please enlighten me!!!!!:???::???::???::???:

this typical. we all do fluctuate up and down on our level depending on opponents we play. I don't know why but i become much more conservative with weaker opponents and this ends up hurting me often.
 

Orion3

Semi-Pro
The "better" player that you edged out in 2, was not "better" since you beat him. He was "worse" than you that day. Similarly, the "worse" player that beat you in 3 is/was "better" than you.

...and the 'better' player, I beat in 2 that thrashed the player I lost to?

Not that it matters - my question 'why do I played better against 'better/stronger/more consistent' players and worse against 'worse/weaker/less consistent' players! Was largely answered by limp.

Interestingly, I played a very strong player this morning. By strong, I mean a top 30 UK county player. I lost 4 and 4 but played out of my skin. A couple of times I was down 0-40 on serve but by concentrating on my stokes and staying in the present I managed to dig myself out of a hole. Thanks for the advice Limp!
 

sansaephanh

Professional
I'm going to admit keeping up with 3.5s with a decent personal record and having a worse record vs 3.0s and some 2.5s... Sometimes goofy stuff gets to me, but thats because I feel demotivated playing against goofy players. They aren't bad... just GOOFY. I get demotivated and don't play as smart as I should.

Thats one thing we should all remember. Play smart, not hard. Sometimes all it takes is a few different shots to force an error. When we hit the same shot at the same pace in a different spot, the opponent is gonna catch our rhythm better. Mix it up. Sometimes goofy gets the W.
 

Steady Eddy

Legend
To the OP. Don't worry too much about it. I think everybody's this way. In a match, there's always more pressure on the better player. The weak player has nothing to lose.

I think that's the real reason good players refuse to hit with weaker ones. It might make them look bad!
 

mightyrick

Legend
I think that's the real reason good players refuse to hit with weaker ones. It might make them look bad!

LOL, maybe for some. For me, it is because I hate having to go chase and pickup balls every 20 seconds. I'd much rather do some actual hitting during hitting sessions.
 
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