Playing Some Tough Points : Video

tlm

G.O.A.T.
#3
The point that starts at 3:32 is a really aggressive, good point. Fun video to watch.
Thanks we have some really good points at times, but the kid is getting to good. Between his great movement and the way he can rip the ball through the court at a much better consistency % than he did in the past he is more than a handful.
 
#4
If you want to stay with the kid, you'll have to start experimenting with putting less air on your shots, flattening out your forehands esp a lot more. When you get an easy forehand as the second shot, try to really lean into the forehand, put body behind it so you can hit it harder. There was one such opportunity for you around 2:20 and you ended up hitting a rally ball.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
#5
If you want to stay with the kid, you'll have to start experimenting with putting less air on your shots, flattening out your forehands esp a lot more. When you get an easy forehand as the second shot, try to really lean into the forehand, put body behind it so you can hit it harder. There was one such opportunity for you around 2:20 and you ended up hitting a rally ball.
I definitely need to hit aggressively any chance I get because once he takes over the point I am in trouble. I have to prep quicker, most guys I play are not as quick as him and do not hit through the court that consistently. I am being rushed more than normal.
 

Booger

Hall of Fame
#6
Isn't that kid still in high school? He has a nice looking game. Smooth, natural strokes. I'm guessing you beat him many times through sheer consistency, but that era might be coming to an end.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
#7
Isn't that kid still in high school? He has a nice looking game. Smooth, natural strokes. I'm guessing you beat him many times through sheer consistency, but that era might be coming to an end.
Ya he is a junior in high school and yes that era is coming to an end.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
#9
The kid has obviously had some proper coaching and training, very nice footwork and groundstrokes, volleys.

And then look at you.

You would do well to invest in some proper lessons if you want to hang with him!
Yes the kid is a very good polished player with great mechanics, then there is me who is self taught with ugly strokes. We played two games of 21 and he beat me 21-16 and 21-17. So I am not sure but I consider that hanging with him.

I have been beating him for the last few years but he is now passing me up. He trains twice a day most of the time and has really improved. Which I am glad to see him get better than I am and I hope he keeps improving. But I would like to see you play this kid and see how well you could do.
 
#10
Yes the kid is a very good polished player with great mechanics, then there is me who is self taught with ugly strokes. We played two games of 21 and he beat me 21-16 and 21-17. So I am not sure but I consider that hanging with him. I would like to see you play this kid and see how well you could do.
Hey all I'm trying to do is offer some advice. If it hurts your self-taught ego, then I am really sorry. Let's move on.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
#11
Hey all I'm trying to do is offer some advice. If it hurts your self-taught ego, then I am really sorry. Let's move on.
Just stating the facts nothing to do with my ego. But I would like to see a video of you playing a guy of his caliber so you could show me how it's done. I wonder what the chances of that happening are? Lol
 
#14
Just stating the facts nothing to do with my ego. But I would like to see a video of you playing a guy of his caliber so you could show me how it's done. I wonder what the chances of that happening are? Lol
I am still a work-in-progress (coaching twice a week). I used to play like you until I finally got sick of playing ugly and got some coaching. Hey at least I am doing something about it.

I still play like you sometimes, but that's to do with the lack of natural talent. As they say, it takes one to know one. Watching you is like watching myself a couple of years ago.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
#15
I am still a work-in-progress (coaching twice a week). I used to play like you until I finally got sick of playing ugly and got some coaching. Hey at least I am doing something about it.

I still play like you sometimes, but that's to do with the lack of natural talent. As they say, it takes one to know one. Watching you is like watching myself a couple of years ago.
I will be taking lessons in the summer and I am always working on my game. I didn't start playing until I was in my 40's so that has made it tougher than if I would have learned when I was younger. But even though my game is ugly it is pretty effective for a hacker.
 
#16
I will be taking lessons in the summer and I am always working on my game. I didn't start playing until I was in my 40's so that has made it tougher than if I would have learned when I was younger. But even though my game is ugly it is pretty effective for a hacker.
That's great! At least you're doing something about it, instead of insisting on self-help videos and books. Tennis doesn't work that way.

There is no doubt your game is pretty effective, but that's the only thing pretty about it. LOL. OK OK I'll stop. IMO, it is better to lose prettily than to lose ugly. Doesn't everybody want to look good? Even when losing? I know I do! Face it, you (and I) won't be able to beat a kid of that calibre anyway so at least look good while losing.

Good luck with your upcoming lessons!
 

Booger

Hall of Fame
#17
Yes the kid is a very good polished player with great mechanics, then there is me who is self taught with ugly strokes. We played two games of 21 and he beat me 21-16 and 21-17. So I am not sure but I consider that hanging with him.
That's actually pretty good considering his youth and edge in stroke mechanics. How were you able to hang tough? You left out all the points where you blasted winners, followed by triumphant fist pumps.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
#18
That's great! At least you're doing something about it, instead of insisting on self-help videos and books. Tennis doesn't work that way.

There is no doubt your game is pretty effective, but that's the only thing pretty about it. LOL. OK OK I'll stop. IMO, it is better to lose prettily than to lose ugly. Doesn't everybody want to look good? Even when losing? I know I do! Face it, you (and I) won't be able to beat a kid of that calibre anyway so at least look good while losing.

Good luck with your upcoming lessons!
I definitely want to improve the looks of my strokes, but I actually enjoy beating guys that have much nicer looking strokes than mine. So I would much rather win with an ugly style than lose with a pretty one.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
#19
That's actually pretty good considering his youth and edge in stroke mechanics. How were you able to hang tough? You left out all the points where you blasted winners, followed by triumphant fist pumps.
Yes I didn't want to show off so I left out all my big winners I hit lol. The only way I can hang with him is to be consistent as I can and try to move him around, I need to hit more aggressively as soon as I get a chance which I was not doing in the video.
 

jga111

Hall of Fame
#21
Nice video - other player looks excellent. You did well hanging in there, he still had to produce quality winners against you. Has your consistency improved the last couple of months?
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
#22
Nice video - other player looks excellent. You did well hanging in there, he still had to produce quality winners against you. Has your consistency improved the last couple of months?
I don't know if my consistency has improved, but this kid makes it tough for me to keep my consistency at my normal level.

Not many opponents that I play rush me as much as this kid does.
 

Vanhalen

Professional
#23
Like you Tim, a lot of guys at my club at home and in Florida that are self taught. Unconventional strokes, but it works for them and they get the job done. Our club has recently installed Playsight? It's cameras on each court. Also calls balls out, and gives every specification you could think of. Serve speed, rpm, a complete breakdown of your match specifics.

I am trying now to change my forehand, not because it's ugly, but to be more efficient so I am not hitting late against stronger players. It never ends!
 
#24
This was an excellent video, as it illustrated the limits of tlm's style. He played pretty well, but his signature loopy fh didn't bother the kid at all. In fact, the air time gave the kid all day to prepare and he kept tlm on the run. 4.0's are not going to handle those shots so easily.
 
#26
Yes the kid is a very good polished player with great mechanics, then there is me who is self taught with ugly strokes. We played two games of 21 and he beat me 21-16 and 21-17. So I am not sure but I consider that hanging with him.

I have been beating him for the last few years but he is now passing me up. He trains twice a day most of the time and has really improved. Which I am glad to see him get better than I am and I hope he keeps improving. But I would like to see you play this kid and see how well you could do.
There is hanging with someone then there is just trying to survive. That looked more like just trying to survive. You were 7 feet behind the baseline hitting lobs and slices 90% of the time while he executed his plan and moved you around. He made too many mistakes which he will continue to make less of as he improves.

We all know defensive pusher tennis can be successful and keep scores reasonable. But to truly hang with him, you need a few more weapons.

Of course he'd blow me off the court because a) I don't play consistent pusher tennis and b) I don't have this kids quality of strokes. But I'd enjoy hitting with him as I love returning pace with pace..
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
#29
There is hanging with someone then there is just trying to survive. That looked more like just trying to survive. You were 7 feet behind the baseline hitting lobs and slices 90% of the time while he executed his plan and moved you around. He made too many mistakes which he will continue to make less of as he improves.

We all know defensive pusher tennis can be successful and keep scores reasonable. But to truly hang with him, you need a few more weapons.

Of course he'd blow me off the court because a) I don't play consistent pusher tennis and b) I don't have this kids quality of strokes. But I'd enjoy hitting with him as I love returning pace with pace..
I can hit more aggressively against most players but he is taking my time away and rushing me more than I am used to.
I'm sure you would like to return pace against pace but the first problem is getting in the right spot with enough time to set up and take a good cut.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
#30
I've seen you hit topspin forehands and you can put some pressure with those shots but you were hitting a lot of chop forehands and he was just nailing those.
Yes your right, but his ball speed has increased. But on some of those shots I could have hit topspin but I was not sure if I had enough time so I hit slice forehands.

I can play him better outside where my topspin shots kick up much higher and his shots are not as fast as indoors.
 
#31
Hey all I'm trying to do is offer some advice. If it hurts your self-taught ego, then I am really sorry. Let's move on.
If you've read the OP's posts around these parts it's pretty obvious he's not open to any sort of criticism. He gets extremely defensive whenever someone points out anything wrong.

Just watch this video of him from 2012:


There are no appreciable changes in his strokes from then. Perfection can't be improved upon, so why bother? :rolleyes:
 
#32
Yes your right, but his ball speed has increased. But on some of those shots I could have hit topspin but I was not sure if I had enough time so I hit slice forehands.

I can play him better outside where my topspin shots kick up much higher and his shots are not as fast as indoors.
I sometimes play against people that hit harder than what I'm used to hitting against and I have to make an adjustment when that happens. I shorten my backswing and stroke using the incoming power to add pace to the outgoing shot. I usually don't have to use much of a stroke to hit the ball back with decent pace and spin. It usually doesn't take as much effort than it would in taking a bigger cut.

So you should be able to adjust to his ball speed.
 
#33
Yes your right, but his ball speed has increased. But on some of those shots I could have hit topspin but I was not sure if I had enough time so I hit slice forehands.

I can play him better outside where my topspin shots kick up much higher and his shots are not as fast as indoors.
You just don't have enough pace on your balls to challenge him. Because you don't hit through the ball he's basically waiting to tee off on each ball. Granted he's getting much better, but your non pressure style facilitates his. Until you can increase your pace you will be doing a lot of running.

That being said kudos on your defence and fitness. Since you said the scores were pretty close he's probably still erratic, but practicing with you will make him a better player.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
#34
I sometimes play against people that hit harder than what I'm used to hitting against and I have to make an adjustment when that happens. I shorten my backswing and stroke using the incoming power to add pace to the outgoing shot. I usually don't have to use much of a stroke to hit the ball back with decent pace and spin. It usually doesn't take as much effort than it would in taking a bigger cut.

So you should be able to adjust to his ball speed.
That makes sense, I need to adjust to the faster ball speed.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
#35
You just don't have enough pace on your balls to challenge him. Because you don't hit through the ball he's basically waiting to tee off on each ball. Granted he's getting much better, but your non pressure style facilitates his. Until you can increase your pace you will be doing a lot of running.

That being said kudos on your defence and fitness. Since you said the scores were pretty close he's probably still erratic, but practicing with you will make him a better player.
I need to be able to increase set up time and prep so I can make an attempt at hitting my shots harder.
 
#36
If you've read the OP's posts around these parts it's pretty obvious he's not open to any sort of criticism. He gets extremely defensive whenever someone points out anything wrong.

Just watch this video of him from 2012:


There are no appreciable changes in his strokes from then. Perfection can't be improved upon, so why bother? :rolleyes:
I don't necessarily agree with this. He is open to criticism, with a little stubborness. He's just not open or able to change his style. If he's happy with his game and is willing to keep receiving the same knocks on his game, as long as he posts to this forum, everything is cool.
 
#37
I need to be able to increase set up time and prep so I can make an attempt at hitting my shots harder.
I disagree that is just that. As long as your swing path remains as vertical as it is, due to late hitting and lack of body use in the swing, you power potential will be limited,
 
#38
I disagree that is just that. As long as your swing path remains as vertical as it is, due to late hitting and lack of body use in the swing, you power potential will be limited,
It might be enlightening for him to try a more horizontal stroke to see how much power he can get with relatively little effort.
 
#39
I can hit more aggressively against most players but he is taking my time away and rushing me more than I am used to.
I'm sure you would like to return pace against pace but the first problem is getting in the right spot with enough time to set up and take a good cut.
That's why i'd like to hit with him and not play a match. He'd kill me in a game. But if we are just rallying to the middle, there is time to set up and swing.

I agree that the only way to keep the score reasonable was to play consistent defensive tennis if you can't hit shot for shot. But there were times you could have been a bit more aggressive but stuck with what was keeping you in the match and hoping he'd make an error. But the game was always on his racket. I think if nothing is on the line, I'd would have taken those chances. I'd rather walk away from a match losing big but hitting some nice penetrating winners or forcing shots than losing a close match where I lobbed and chop-shotted my way around.

It's like golf. Breaking 80 is nice but I'd rather do it with great long drives and precise iron shots than by getting on a roll with the putter/chipping game.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
#40
That's why i'd like to hit with him and not play a match. He'd kill me in a game. But if we are just rallying to the middle, there is time to set up and swing.

I agree that the only way to keep the score reasonable was to play consistent defensive tennis if you can't hit shot for shot. But there were times you could have been a bit more aggressive but stuck with what was keeping you in the match and hoping he'd make an error. But the game was always on his racket. I think if nothing is on the line, I'd would have taken those chances. I'd rather walk away from a match losing big but hitting some nice penetrating winners or forcing shots than losing a close match where I lobbed and chop-shotted my way around.

It's like golf. Breaking 80 is nice but I'd rather do it with great long drives and precise iron shots than by getting on a roll with the putter/chipping game.
I see what you mean, because when we are warming up I hit fine with him. But during points I am rushed.

Your also right about me passing up chances to be more aggressive. I have to take more advantage of the chances I get.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
#41
Oftentimes, adding pace, lowering the ball height, and going for more in your shots will just awaken the monster on the other side of the net, by playing into HIS favored game.
But you should try it for several games, to see if it works, or if it plays into his preferences. For sure, you know your current game is taking points from him, taking games, but not quite enough to win against him.
 
#42
Oftentimes, adding pace, lowering the ball height, and going for more in your shots will just awaken the monster on the other side of the net, by playing into HIS favored game.
But you should try it for several games, to see if it works, or if it plays into his preferences. For sure, you know your current game is taking points from him, taking games, but not quite enough to win against him.
He might like pace but not if he's rushed in hitting his shots - as if he has to run for it.

I play with a couple of old guys that have both coached high-school tennis. One of them is fit and the other isn't but they can both place the ball in areas of the court and with pace (or lack thereof) that's often very uncomfortable for high-school players. So it's not always purely about pace but the OP clearly has the potential to hit with pace as well as those unorthodox shots. It's certainly worth a shot and something that could improve his game for other opponents too.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
#43
Oftentimes, adding pace, lowering the ball height, and going for more in your shots will just awaken the monster on the other side of the net, by playing into HIS favored game.
But you should try it for several games, to see if it works, or if it plays into his preferences. For sure, you know your current game is taking points from him, taking games, but not quite enough to win against him.
You make a good point here Lee. This kid has been playing the best 4.0 level guy from my club that hits a faster flatter shot than I do and the kid has been beating him. He likes the pace and feeds off of it.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
#44
Yeah, the kids are different than middle aged guys like you. President on here would probably crush me if I didn't slice low and short to his forehand. Matt is a whole other level, so nothing I can do would help much, except maybe get one game and run a whole lot more.
I do have a couple of 16 year old guys to play against, but when they show, it's been all doubles so far. Those guys are top 3's in their high school, and win local junior events, but are not state ranked because they don't travel to play tournaments. Conventional baseline tennis doesn't work against them.
 
#45
You are 30 feet behind the baseline even when you hit a good shot. I realize why you are doing it. But may be you should stay a little closer to the baseline? Otherwise, you are letting the kid dictate all the time.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
#46
But isn't defensive heavy topspin loop ball tennis a game from way back, especially when the opponent doesn't drop shot too often?
Standing atop the baseline would force any player to adopt a more offensive game, which is probably what the kid sees when he's playing his peers. It's tough to consistently loop a deep ball with heavy topspin, when you're shorthopping them.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
#47
You are 30 feet behind the baseline even when you hit a good shot. I realize why you are doing it. But may be you should stay a little closer to the baseline? Otherwise, you are letting the kid dictate all the time.
I always play deep behind the baseline.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
#48
Hard, or impossible, to play defensive baseline tennis from near the baseline. Deep balls would eat up the defensive player.
Tlm is doing the right thing, positioning himself correctly, for the game of attrition he is playing. He is NOT going for winners, or forcing shots, but is using his grit, fitness, determination, and strong mind, to outlast his competition. Shortening points is not his desire, but LENGTHENING them is.
 
#49
I always play deep behind the baseline.
Which is why he kills you with the angles. He could also wreck you with drop shots but I think he was having enough fun just pounding your balls left and right and making you run. Your off pace shots definitely got you some points but no way you were going to dictate anything from that far back.
Again it was a sound strategy to try to accumulate as many games as you could, but I think a bit of your tennis soul died that day.
 
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