playing to win or to improve

[raiden031]

Even after all this time I've spent on the board I still ponder the question of the right balance between playing to win and playing to improve. My background is that I'm slowly climbing up the NTRP ladder where last year I played 3.0 only, this year I'm playing 3.0 and 3.5, and I plan to play 3.5 and 4.0 next year.

Now in matches I have the philosophy that I will always try to hit all shots with the best technique I can, and never resort to tactics of just blocking the ball back because I'm in a pressure situation or whatever. Another philosophy I have is that you can only develop so much confidence in a shot when used solely in practice, and that to really become confident in a shot you must be comfortable using it in matches.

I have some scenarios that I'd like to mention here for advice:

1) My overheads need alot of work and if I'm in a match and someone hits an lob that could either be overhead smashed on the fly or I could let it bounce, do I hit it on the fly or let it bounce? I know that I'm more likely to botch the overhead if I hit it on the fly, but if I always take the easy route and let it bounce, then when the time comes to hit it on the fly I won't have the confidence to hit that shot.

2) My down-the-line backhand is much weaker than my cross-court backhand and I get in a scenario where the down-the-line backhand would probably be a winner and the cross-court would just simply keeps the point going. Do you always go cross-court to avoid the lower percentage shot? If I always take the higher percentage shot, then when a time comes that I need the lower-percentage shot it will never be there for me.

3) I am returning serve where the guy hits all kick serves to my backhand. This is not the first time I've dealt with this nor will it be the last. Do I go for the 1-handed topspin drive giving up a few free points or do I slice everything back for the higher percentage of returns. The problem with only being able to slice this kind of ball is that a net man in doubles will eat that up whereas sometimes a firm topspin drive is the only way to get past that net man.

So in short the question is how do you determine when to face your weaknesses in a match verses when to play high percentage and put them on the back burner? To put it frankly, I don't care about my match results at 3.0 or 3.5 levels for any other reason other than to move my rating up to get to a higher level, but I don't want to get to a higher level by always avoiding my weaknesses. I get no satisfaction being a mediocre player so really all I think about is proving to myself that I can become a good player. Its kinda a double-edged sword though. You have to win as much as possible to get moved up, but you also need to work on all areas of your game which can in the short term hurt your match results.

 

[jb193]

I say improve. That takes the anxiety out of trying to win and the byproduct is that you will improve if that is your goal and you work for that. That doesn't mean you don't play hard and that doesn't mean you don't play to win. That just means you take chances, you let your game evolve, and if you happen to lose, who cares. That is just my opinion.

 

[pr0n8r]

One of the annoying byproducts of adopting a "play to improve" mindset is all of that winning that ends up happening.

 

[just out]

So in short the question is how do you determine when to face your weaknesses in a match verses when to play high percentage and put them on the back burner? To put it frankly, I don't care about my match results at 3.0 or 3.5 levels for any other reason other than to move my rating up to get to a higher level, but I don't want to get to a higher level by always avoiding my weaknesses. I get no satisfaction being a mediocre player so really all I think about is proving to myself that I can become a good player. Its kinda a double-edged sword though. You have to win as much as possible to get moved up, but you also need to work on all areas of your game which can in the short term hurt your match results.

I've struggled with this myself over the years and being much older than you I can only say that it depends on how high you want to go. I will likely never get beyond 4.5 unless I could spend more time at tennis and abandon work and family so the time for me to reach a higher level was when I had time to hit and practice often.

Moving up in the NTRP by winning matches at the 3.0-4.0 level does not mean that you are necessarily becoming a better player and laying a foundation that will take you to 4.5 and beyond. If you don't work on building your game you will likely peak at 4.0 and stay there as you get older. 4.5+ IMO is really a point of separation and you can't get by and win by avoiding weaknesses. You may as well start playing matches now with that in mind and work on weaknesses in practice so they are not a liability in matches. Oh, I also keep slicing the backhand return, more and more as I get older and lazy, and getting poached more than ever

 

[autumn_leaf]

1. practice hitting it on the fly. letting it bounce has too many disadvantages for me.

a. lets the opponent have more time to recoup.
b. it can take an awkward bounce and put you in the defensive.

2. it's 1/2 ft difference for down the line. i would go for the winner but you have to be able to hit it (that's obvious isn't it). i never looked at clearing it as a hard thing to do. i have seen people's rallies get lower and lower till it hits the net even if it's cross court. if you have finish the point with probable odds then do it.

3. i don't play doubles and am not a specialist. in singles there are way to compensate for high kickers. my friend just stands far enough that it'll always go to his fh, but of course this leaves a range that you can't cover.

you have to improve instead of playing high percentage in my opinion. the problem with matches is that people tense up and don't play as well as they can, they don't hit as hard as they can because they're afraid of looking like an idiot in competition. don't be afraid of that if that's the problem, you have to learn sometime.

a few questions you have to ask yourself is:

1. do you tense up in official matches?
2. do you hit better in practice than you do matches?
3. are you hesitating on shots in matches that you wouldn't in practice.
4. is there a dramatic change in experience/confidence in tatics/shot selection/ placement in social matches vs official matches?

i would join a tournament and play it as if it was a social game and see if there are differences. you tend to notice a difference, especially in confidence when you're not worried about being judged.

 

[FH2FH]

You just said what gives you problems, so you already know what you have to do! Improving those areas will help you reach your NTRP goals.

Realistically, EVERYONE has to improvise to get through difficult matches sometimes. There's just not anything you can do in the middle of a match when your opponent has your number and exploits it. It doesn't mean you're a "pusher" if you block a few balls back and scramble to win points. The top players in the world do it nearly every match [eg, Federer does not try to rip winners on Roddick's serves]. Work on those areas later in practice.

Work on what makes you uncomfortable. By that I mean as long as you keep playing better opponents, you should constantly be challenged and find areas of your game to work on. When you don't, you've overlooked something!

 

[raiden031]

I've struggled with this myself over the years and being much older than you I can only say that it depends on how high you want to go. I will likely never get beyond 4.5 unless I could spend more time at tennis and abandon work and family so the time for me to reach a higher level was when I had time to hit and practice often.
Moving up in the NTRP by winning matches at the 3.0-4.0 level does not mean that you are necessarily becoming a better player and laying a foundation that will take you to 4.5 and beyond. If you don't work on building your game you will likely peak at 4.0 and stay there as you get older. 4.5+ IMO is really a point of separation and you can't get by and win by avoiding weaknesses. You may as well start playing matches now with that in mind and work on weaknesses in practice so they are not a liability in matches. Oh, I also keep slicing the backhand return, more and more as I get older and lazy, and getting poached more than ever

I would be satisfied to reach 4.5, but I would be very pleased to reach 5.0. I realize that the biggest difference between me reaching 4.5 instead of 5.0 will probably be my lack of getting lessons regularly from a professional. But I really don't know what to expect since most people who are 5.0 got there as a junior and went on to play in college and so on. I have not seen someone start in adulthood and take themselves to 5.0 so this is mainly an experiment for me to see how high I can go.

 

[Nellie]

Raiden,

I think if you play more singles/tournements, it will help you improve as well because playing singles forces you to play and improve your weaker shots.

Regarding your questions, work on your overheads (and your high forehands). Nothing in worse than working hard to create a winner, only to miss the put-away.

Regarding down-the-line, practice using better judgement in matches such that you go down the line when the incoming cross court is short, or too far down the middle. Again, you have essentially forced an error, and you want to punish the opponent.

Regarding return of serves - go ahead and go for the winners when you are up in the game. What I would really try, however, is practicing running around that backhand and pounding that forehand return!

 

[raiden031]

a few questions you have to ask yourself is:

1. do you tense up in official matches?
2. do you hit better in practice than you do matches?
3. are you hesitating on shots in matches that you wouldn't in practice.
4. is there a dramatic change in experience/confidence in tatics/shot selection/ placement in social matches vs official matches?

i would join a tournament and play it as if it was a social game and see if there are differences. you tend to notice a difference, especially in confidence when you're not worried about being judged.

I generally do not tense up in official matches (meaning I can still play my game, but certainly feel more nervous inside). It is a flip of a coin whether I hit better in practice or matches, depends on the day. The only reason I might botch shots more in a match is because I might have less time to prepare for a shot or I'm not used to the way my opponent is hitting the ball. When I play a social match vs. an official match, I will play lower percentage in social matches but I wouldn't say I turn into a pusher or anything in an official match though.

 

[snvplayer]

This is a dillema that everyone goes through at some point.
However, you have to be careful in making these decisions.

You shouldn't confuse your weakness with a bad stroke. Although they do go hand in hand, there are fine differences.

If it's a bad stroke, you need to improve it. If it's your weakness, you need to look for an alternative in the situation.

For example, to discuss your three situations.
1) If you are unable to take out simple overheads, then your overhead is
bad. You need to work on them.

2) You dtl backhand is weak. If you are unable to execute them off a eash shot, then you obviously need to improve it. However, it might as well be your weakness. If so, you should not be looking to hit this shot frequently during the match and should keep your bh cross court.

3) Hitting one handed backhand drive return is tough for anyone. Even pros struggle with them and have to hit slice return. If you try to execute this return during match, you are simply resorting to your weakness and giving up points. Instead, you should look to make a safer return with your slice backhand and look to work your way into the point.

It also depends on what kind of match you are playing. If it's a social friendly match, it will not hurt to try out new things to improve. But if you are playing a competitive match, you should stick to your strength TO LEARN TO WIN MATCHES BY USING YOUR STRENGTH. Whatever you DEVELOP in a PRACTICE match, you incorporate them into a real match

 

[Tennisman912]

raiden031,

I would recommend playing to win your USTA matches. Do whatever it takes to win. You obviously know what your weaknesses are and that is good and puts you ahead of many.

You can work on new techniques/styles when hitting in clinics/lessons/practice sessions or playing casual matches (non USTA). When something you are working on is working consistently in practice matches, start using it in your USTA or important matches.

Someone suggested a long time ago to play at least three matches a week if you can, plus your practice clinics, lessons or whatever your normal practice routine is. You should have one match with someone weaker so you can experiment with things (work on one thing at a time) and also have the pressure of being expected to win. That is very good for you. Here is the first place to try your newly developed skills. You should also have a match with someone about equal to you to learn how to grind out matches. After comfortable with new shots against weaker opponents, introduce them to your matches with your peers. Thirdly, you should play someone better so you can see what you really need to accomplish to move up the ranks. It will also make your normal pace seem slower/easier to deal with which is good for your game as well. It takes a lot of time and dedication to advance unless you are unusually gifted.

Also, I would take a few lessons from the best pro you can find. Learning things the right way the first time and from those who have been there is important and will give you a leg up in the long run.

Good luck

TM

 

[Zachol82]

Even after all this time I've spent on the board I still ponder the question of the right balance between playing to win and playing to improve. My background is that I'm slowly climbing up the NTRP ladder where last year I played 3.0 only, this year I'm playing 3.0 and 3.5, and I plan to play 3.5 and 4.0 next year.

Now in matches I have the philosophy that I will always try to hit all shots with the best technique I can, and never resort to tactics of just blocking the ball back because I'm in a pressure situation or whatever. Another philosophy I have is that you can only develop so much confidence in a shot when used solely in practice, and that to really become confident in a shot you must be comfortable using it in matches.

I have some scenarios that I'd like to mention here for advice:

1) My overheads need alot of work and if I'm in a match and someone hits an lob that could either be overhead smashed on the fly or I could let it bounce, do I hit it on the fly or let it bounce? I know that I'm more likely to botch the overhead if I hit it on the fly, but if I always take the easy route and let it bounce, then when the time comes to hit it on the fly I won't have the confidence to hit that shot.

2) My down-the-line backhand is much weaker than my cross-court backhand and I get in a scenario where the down-the-line backhand would probably be a winner and the cross-court would just simply keeps the point going. Do you always go cross-court to avoid the lower percentage shot? If I always take the higher percentage shot, then when a time comes that I need the lower-percentage shot it will never be there for me.

3) I am returning serve where the guy hits all kick serves to my backhand. This is not the first time I've dealt with this nor will it be the last. Do I go for the 1-handed topspin drive giving up a few free points or do I slice everything back for the higher percentage of returns. The problem with only being able to slice this kind of ball is that a net man in doubles will eat that up whereas sometimes a firm topspin drive is the only way to get past that net man.

So in short the question is how do you determine when to face your weaknesses in a match verses when to play high percentage and put them on the back burner? To put it frankly, I don't care about my match results at 3.0 or 3.5 levels for any other reason other than to move my rating up to get to a higher level, but I don't want to get to a higher level by always avoiding my weaknesses. I get no satisfaction being a mediocre player so really all I think about is proving to myself that I can become a good player. Its kinda a double-edged sword though. You have to win as much as possible to get moved up, but you also need to work on all areas of your game which can in the short term hurt your match results.

This is why you practice. Do as many overheads and other uncomfortable shots as you can during practice. Sure practice is different than a real match but if you can get a shot down 9/10 times, then it's a good idea to move that shot into a real match and see how it goes.

 

[The Home Run Kid]

But how could he ever feel comfortable moving a shot into a real match if he's never tried it in that situation before? Practice comes with the assurance that if you screw up one, you can hit it again. If you do that in a match, you just lost a point, maybe even a set or match point. This has been one of my hugest dissapointments in myself. As crappily as I play now, whenever I play in a match, I play "safer", "easier"... generally crappier tennis.

 

[baek57]

i say play to improve and let the winning take care of itself.

 

[Ambivalent]

If you play to win, you are getting better.

For example, i have played people that i cannot beat by playing my normal counter punching game, and therefore have to resort to annoying them and making them beat themselves. If i win doing this, then im expanding my abilities.

 

[jmverdugo]

A match in a tournament it is not the place to practice, you should try to use the strokes you are confident with and make a game plan with those, from time to time if your scores allows it you can take a chance a try new stuff. Social matches with good players are the right place to practice, I usually play the first game to win and the second to practice new shots, Most of the times I win the first, always lose the second.

 

[maleyoyo]

If your ultimate goal is to improve then your focus is performance not results. If you carry the same weaknesses to the next level, they will be exploited mercilessly. Tennis performance has two major components: mechanics and mental, and it sounds like you are more focused on the mechanics part but I don't think you can separate the two, as they go hand in hand.
Not moving up is not necessary a bad thing in the long run because as your skills steadily improve, you have more chances to work on your weaknesses during match play without hurting your match results so much. It's a very good way to build up your confidence and your game.
I think what you need now is patience, discipline, more practice, and less match play. If you diligently work on your game the result will come, but the problem is it always takes a lot longer than you would expect.
I don't think playing doubles at this point is very productive for your overall development (except practice match) unless you get a partner with the same mindset and skill set because it's not the ideal environment to work on the mechanics of your game.
We're often conditioned to think that winning is fun, but losing can be fun too knowing that you played your heart out and did all the right things.
BTW, I'm just relaying what I learned from reading the book Tennis Mastery by Dave Smith and my own experience.

 

[LuckyR]

Tournament matchplay should be a small part of your total court time. This is a very valuable time to work on match toughness. You should be going all out to win. This will make you match tough and less likely to succumb to nerves and jitters. There should be plenty of practice time to work on your strokes. Later the two will become one. Although it may sound counterintuitive, the strokes are the easier part to master. Trying to attain a Cool Killer mental game after using one of Technician (concerned about a stroke mechanics) is not trivial.

 

[raiden031]

If you play to win, you are getting better.

For example, i have played people that i cannot beat by playing my normal counter punching game, and therefore have to resort to annoying them and making them beat themselves. If i win doing this, then im expanding my abilities.

You might be getting better by winning, but are you developing to your full potential? I don't want to fall into a trap of where everytime I play a higher level player I have to resort to drop shots or moonballs because my offensive shots aren't consistent enough to win matches. Instead my ultimate goal is to simply outplay every opponent I face by attacking them and punishing every weak ball they give me, because thats my style and thats what the pros can do. I don't expect to be as good as the pros, but I want to take myself to the highest level possible with this style of game.

 

[raiden031]

Although it may sound counterintuitive, the strokes are the easier part to master. Trying to attain a Cool Killer mental game after using one of Technician (concerned about a stroke mechanics) is not trivial.

I guess this depends on what level player this statement is meant for. I think that my mental game is way beyond my mechanics at this point. I can tell because of my results against my ball machine (ball machine wins 6-0, 6-0 every time), as well as when I try to hit practice rallies with other players of the same level. I feel like this is true of most 3.5s. I'm starting to beat alot of guys that were beating me last year and they seemed to have gotten worse not better, but thats probably not the case but instead I think I'm starting to see how bad their strokes are compared to what I observed before when they used to beat me.

 

[LuckyR]

I guess this depends on what level player this statement is meant for. I think that my mental game is way beyond my mechanics at this point. I can tell because of my results against my ball machine (ball machine wins 6-0, 6-0 every time), as well as when I try to hit practice rallies with other players of the same level. I feel like this is true of most 3.5s. I'm starting to beat alot of guys that were beating me last year and they seemed to have gotten worse not better, but thats probably not the case but instead I think I'm starting to see how bad their strokes are compared to what I observed before when they used to beat me.

I don't disagree with your comment that your Mental Game is beyond your strokes at the moment. However, I stand by my comment that you have way more to lose by allowing your tournament persona to drift from the single task of winning, than you have to gain in stroke mechanics for the brief amount of overall time of a tournament match, compared to your stroke practice time.

 

[symon_say]

Play to improve is always better, cause at the end line you'll be first.

When i start playing one of the court guys start making fun of me and my bad game, i told him to give a month and i'll play with him.

When i play the first time i dont try to make any points, just to hit the ball with good technics, he beats me really bad , but 4 month later we play again and he still beat me, but i did a pretty good job with 6-4, 6-4, game.

I'm completly sure that the next time we play i'll beat him and he never will beat me again, now i'm looking for better players to get beat, cause that how you learn, gettin beat everytime be a better player than you, and put that guy as your next target, improve your game until you beat him and you'll be really soon wining a lot of matches.

You have to suffer a lot thru the proccess and more if your court friends like to make a lot of jokes when you lose, but nothing win their faces when they can beat you anymore.

 

[stevekim8]

if you don't care about winning, then definitely to improve.

 

[just out]

I would be satisfied to reach 4.5, but I would be very pleased to reach 5.0. I realize that the biggest difference between me reaching 4.5 instead of 5.0 will probably be my lack of getting lessons regularly from a professional. But I really don't know what to expect since most people who are 5.0 got there as a junior and went on to play in college and so on. I have not seen someone start in adulthood and take themselves to 5.0 so this is mainly an experiment for me to see how high I can go.

I think getting to 5.0 without "getting lessons regularly" is possible, you are still young and I assume in good physical condition so that will not hold you back, you don't find many self-taught 5.0's in the higher age brackets who learned as adults but they are out there. As long as you don't have any major technical issues that hold you back it really comes down to how much time do you have to get the repetition necessary to develop the pace and consistency to be a 4.5+ player. If you do have major technical problems with a certain stroke or footwork issues, occasional lessons may help make you aware of these and speed up the correction. Most adults that I have taught just don't realize the amount of time and practice that it takes to get to the higher levels, they usually just figure if they get the stroke mechanics down they will continue to improve if they hit or play matches two or three times a week --- and that will never happen.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

So in short the question is how do you determine when to face your weaknesses in a match verses when to play high percentage and put them on the back burner? To put it frankly, I don't care about my match results at 3.0 or 3.5 levels for any other reason other than to move my rating up to get to a higher level, but I don't want to get to a higher level by always avoiding my weaknesses. I get no satisfaction being a mediocre player so really all I think about is proving to myself that I can become a good player. Its kinda a double-edged sword though. You have to win as much as possible to get moved up, but you also need to work on all areas of your game which can in the short term hurt your match results.

Yes, you do have to win in order to advance in the ratings. However, you have to improve in order to play at a higher level as well!

If you only want to win matches now, then you will stay where you are and beat people at your level.

However, if you want to improve then you will also lose at first in order to get used to incorporating new skills.

Advancing in the ratings is not meant to be something you do real quickly. It is suppose to help you see what you should be working on (improving) in order to get to the next level.

My philosophy is "your practice must compliment your matches and vice versa."

In other words, if you want to improve your double fault percentage, guess what? You got to go and practice your serves. You have to improve this area through practice. If you want to improve your first serve percentage, guess what? You have to improve this area through practice.

All other aspects of your game need to be considered in the same light. Ask yourself, why do you want to improve? What do you want to improve? How will improving a certain area help you win more matches? How will it help you improve to the next level?

You have to link your improvement to specific goals. These goals should transfer to yoru matches which should transfer to your win/loss column. This applies to strokes, conditioning, footwork, footspeed, tactics and strategy, etc...

 

[Eastern Technifibre]

depends on the tournament. If your working on your game and you play a lower level tournament that means your playing to improve. But if your playing in a higher level tournament that means you are playing to win

 

[lolsmash]

You might be getting better by winning, but are you developing to your full potential? I don't want to fall into a trap of where everytime I play a higher level player I have to resort to drop shots or moonballs because my offensive shots aren't consistent enough to win matches. Instead my ultimate goal is to simply outplay every opponent I face by attacking them and punishing every weak ball they give me, because thats my style and thats what the pros can do. I don't expect to be as good as the pros, but I want to take myself to the highest level possible with this style of game.

Just because you're not hitting the ball hard and hitting winners all over the court doesn't mean that you're not playing to your full potential. If you can win a match because your moonballs and dropshots will win you the match against a higher level player, do it. There's a difference between playing intelligently and playing to win. You will not win every match by attacking and punishing every weak ball, because it's not that easy. Work on consistency first, and then once you have that base, then you can the aggression in. There's no point in trying to play aggressively if you can't even keep the ball in play.
Also, keep in mind that just because a pro can win by punishing every ball doesn't mean that you should do the same. Keep in mind that they actually build the points instead of just mindlessly bashing, like it looks like on television.

 

[raiden031]

Just because you're not hitting the ball hard and hitting winners all over the court doesn't mean that you're not playing to your full potential. If you can win a match because your moonballs and dropshots will win you the match against a higher level player, do it. There's a difference between playing intelligently and playing to win. You will not win every match by attacking and punishing every weak ball, because it's not that easy. Work on consistency first, and then once you have that base, then you can the aggression in. There's no point in trying to play aggressively if you can't even keep the ball in play.
Also, keep in mind that just because a pro can win by punishing every ball doesn't mean that you should do the same. Keep in mind that they actually build the points instead of just mindlessly bashing, like it looks like on television.

I was responding to a guy who said when playing someone he can't beat with his normal game that he will do annoying things against them in hopes they beat themselves. My point was that if I have to rely on an opponent beating themselves rather than me beating them, then I'm not where I want to be and continuing to play with that strategy will not help me get where I want to be.

 

[kobe3pointer]

Id say play to improve, which will ultimately help you win later.

 

[5263]

Practice to Improve, then

Play to Win!

 

[symon_say]

Practice to Improve, then

Play to Win!

If you practice one thing and then do the other on the game, you'll never do it right on game, you have to play games as you do in practice, and if you practice to improve you'll play to improve and sooner or later winning games.

 

[5263]

To practice how you play and play how you practice is really a second tier approach.

It's what a coach tells someone who under performs in matches or slacks off in practice.
In both cases, the coach realizes the player really doesn't get the whole competition thing and how to pull it off; So this is a way to simplify things and just do it one way. It's a fall back position.

To really compete properly, you do what you can do well and avoid your weakness to the max extent.
ex.
If your topspin BH is very erratic and a work in progress, during a local tourney you might chip the BH more and try to run around and hit a FH when u can, so as to compete and try to win your bracket. If you are trying to hit the topspin BH in this match, you are just practicing, not competing.
Then when back at practice, you get after that BH to improve the consistency of the TS shot. You use matchplay practice to prove you can do it under pressure, before you go with it in competition.

Another problem, is that some players are hitting the BH topspin well in practice and just choke in matches. Coaches will then say to just play like you practice to try and help them mentally, but it is due to a malfunction and not the BEST way to approach getting better.

The other thing this grows out of is that some goof off in practice and are not ready to play matches. Again the Coach will say that you better practice how you expect to play. But this again is a response due to a malfunction. Don't think this applies to many here, as people here really love the game and want to improve too bad to goof off like that.

Practicing properly starts with developing basic skills that can later translate to match skills, then progresses up to simulating match situations and skills. This is all in an effort to prepare to compete. That's why each has it's own name--Cause it's different!
One is PreP, the other is game Day.
One is homework, the other is Finals.
One is the simulator, the other is the Jet.
To ever be really good, you better live the difference.

To compete, you play to win. That means using all your strategy and skills to their best advantage based on your opponents tool set. If you want to excuse your losses in matches by saying you were just trying to play right and may be able to win someday, well that's just fine. Just don't expect to bring that lame approach to a competitive team and expect to be welcome. That's called Social tennis, and thats Ok in it's proper place.
.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

Id say play to improve, which will ultimately help you win later.

A player must practice to improve. Playing matches will also help a player improve, but practice helps shore-up weaknesses that matchplay brings out.

In practice, you should be working on your weaknesses that you discovered in your match. You should be working on your weaker strokes to strengthen them in case you face a player that calls them out. You should be improving your ball recognition skills, footwork, footspeed, etc...

If you aren't doing this, then you are just really out there to just hit the ball with no rhyme or reason. That isn't practice.

Practice is a must in nearly every sport. So it is not good thinking and clearly shows an undisciplined tennis player if they think otherwise.

 

[Hot Sauce]

In my opinion you shouldn't decide on one or the other. Maintain a balance between them. But since you said you don't care about match results, then definitely lean it towards improving. If you play a guy who plays to win while you play to improve, later on you'll be the one winning. So improve now, and focus on winning competitively later.

 

[5263]

Hot Sauce,
Got to differ with you on this. It is logical to some extent what you say, but it is flawed logic, swayed by an excuse for losing or fear of committing to the effort to win.

If you are not playing to win, you are missing valuable experience that helps you win later, along with those improving strokes.

The only person that your approach will help you beat in the long run, is the guy who never improves his strokes with practice and just accepts his game at the level it's at and wins thru hustle and/or junk balls only.

If a player practices right and competes right, just practicing thru your matchplay will never catch him. (other things being equal)
Playing to win is something you have to work at too!

League Teams are full of guys like you describe, who have put pretty strokes above playing to win and everyone always wonders why these guys never win. It's really a pretty common mistake in our sport.

 

[TonyB]

Someone else mentioned it already: it depends on where you want to go with your game.

If you want to max out at 4.0-4.5 NTRP, then keep playing to win, despite the holes in your game. Eventually, you'll get good enough at just "doing what you're doing" so that you can compensate at the lower levels and usually beat other players just because of consistency. But you'll probably never get above a 4.5 rating with obvious holes in your game. Players at that level will simply exploit them every chance they get.

If short term goals like winning matches right now is more important to you than forming a good all-around game from a solid fundamental foundation, then go ahead and do whatever you need to in order to win matches. But if you want to improve, you really need to practice every shot, including your weakest shots, in actual matches.

Hitting against ball machines can only get you so far. Unless you're willing to actually TRY to hit your weakest shots in actual matches, they'll never be there for you when it really counts. You have to LEARN how to hit those shots while under pressure.

 

[5263]

Unless you're willing to actually TRY to hit your weakest shots in actual matches, they'll never be there for you when it really counts. You have to LEARN how to hit those shots while under pressure.

I don't know where this kind of thinking ever gets started. It is probably the surest way to never, ever get past 4.5 tennis.

Well I guess the guy who asked the question will have to read these posts and see who he can agree with. Hopefully he can see that when you don't ever play to win, you have become only a practice player for life and have cheated yourself out of learning to win by relegating everything to mere practice.

I see these guys everyday on the courts, pretending to be good with their smooth, pretty swings, but can't win a set except when they face another pretender. The excuse is, it is about getting better, but they never get there. The only ones they fool are themselves and the 3.5 and below. They are the 4.5 players that get hammered by 4.0 players and don't know why, but the 3.0 players tell them how good they are cause they don't know any better.
"I don't know why I can't beat that guy, my stokes are so much better than his", is what you hear them whisper to their friends.

In practice and practice matches, you learn to hit your shots.
In real matches, you PROVE you can hit your shots.

 

[5263]

After awhile, they get smart and only seek other pretty players to play with, so now they can only lose to players with strokes and game plans they can approve of. This way they can play together and keep the fantasy alive, by avoiding the crushing defeats by those who know the difference in practice and matches and with games that will pass right by them in the short and long run.

 

[Zachol82]

But how could he ever feel comfortable moving a shot into a real match if he's never tried it in that situation before? Practice comes with the assurance that if you screw up one, you can hit it again. If you do that in a match, you just lost a point, maybe even a set or match point. This has been one of my hugest dissapointments in myself. As crappily as I play now, whenever I play in a match, I play "safer", "easier"... generally crappier tennis.

That's why I said when you can get a shot down 9/10 times during practice, then you should have the confidence to move it to a real match. It's all mental from there since your body can physically carry out the shot.

 

[maleyoyo]

The OP's goal is to reach 5.0 level and that's one hefty goal considering his situation, but I think it's very doable for him given the information he provided.
My opinion is to reach that level and make the transitions smoothly, he should be able to master all his skills at one level before moving to the next. He should be able to dominate players at the current level before moving up.
In his original post he indicates several examples of how he is not confident executing certain shots, and the reason is he doesn't own those shots. Until he confidently executes those shots given the right circumstances down a match point, I don't think he owns them yet, and the match result should not be his primary concern now. Adding the pressure of winning or losing doesn't help him at this point.
Getting by may get him there, but my guess is he's not going to enjoy it when he does get there (a mediocre 5.0).

 

[TonyB]

I don't know where this kind of thinking ever gets started. It is probably the surest way to never, ever get past 4.5 tennis.

I'm sorry, but you're 100% wrong. The surest way to never get past 4.5 is to AVOID hitting certain shots in matches. Yes, you want to make the proper shot selection, but if the situation calls for a shot that you don't "own", then you're stuck hitting a lesser shot. And at the 4.5+ level, your opponents will take advantage of that lesser shot again and again and again.

Speaking from personal experience, I was stuck for quite a while with just a slice 1-handed backhand. I would practice my topspin backhand all the time, but when it came down to playing a match, I could never execute it. A couple of times, when I would try to throw it into a match, everything went horribly wrong. Then I just immediately switched back to my slice backhand. Mentally, and perhaps physically, I just wasn't able to execute the shot under pressure, on the run, against an opponent who was looking to take advantage of my weaker slice backhand. They would approach the net to my backhand side without fear, because they knew my response would be either a lob or a weak sliced passing shot down the line.

Eventually, I just bit the bullet and decided to go ahead and try to hit my topspin backhand in every match I played, regardless of whether or not I missed it. I would guess that I was doing worse in matches for maybe the first 3 months, but after that, I was beating those very same opponents without any problems. Why? Because I learned how to hit my backhand under pressure, when the points actually COUNTED, without panicking or worrying about whether or not I should be hitting my slice backhand instead. I knew what I wanted to do. I was CONFIDENT with my choice. And those opponents who USED TO approach to my backhand side stopped doing it.

Now people actually choose to serve to my forehand because they've been burned too many times by my improved backhand. And it's not because I practiced it in "drill sessions", it's because I learned how to control myself mentally and physically under pressure when points really counted. You simply can't learn that through practice.

 

[5263]

Tony, So all you did was turn your matches into matchplay "practice" until you finally owned your backhand. The rest was all in your head.

The fact that this what you needed to trick yourself into believing that you were hitting under pressure seems to be lost here. I guess it wouldn't have worked otherwise, chuckle. But You were not really hitting under pressure as during that time your matches were just practice matchplay. You had to say, ah what the heck, I'm just going to hit it anyway. "I don't care if I lose".

All that is fine if it worked for you, but if you kept doing it, for all your shots as you needed them to improve, you would never get to the skills of playing to win. There is always something we need to improve, even at #1 in the world.
In your case as you describe it, first you tried to win (GOOD),
then you did matchplay practice to improve your BH (GOOD),
then you got back to playing to win and competing (GOOD).
That is an excellent cycle.

It is very normal to take a couple of months to bring a stroke up to Par, but after that, you got back to the game as a whole. So many get trapped in the cycle of just moving from one shot to the next, trying to improve them and all they learn is to become pretty good hitters.

That's about one quarter of this game.

 

[tarheels2323]

Even after all this time I've spent on the board I still ponder the question of the right balance between playing to win and playing to improve. My background is that I'm slowly climbing up the NTRP ladder where last year I played 3.0 only, this year I'm playing 3.0 and 3.5, and I plan to play 3.5 and 4.0 next year.

Now in matches I have the philosophy that I will always try to hit all shots with the best technique I can, and never resort to tactics of just blocking the ball back because I'm in a pressure situation or whatever. Another philosophy I have is that you can only develop so much confidence in a shot when used solely in practice, and that to really become confident in a shot you must be comfortable using it in matches.

I have some scenarios that I'd like to mention here for advice:

1) My overheads need alot of work and if I'm in a match and someone hits an lob that could either be overhead smashed on the fly or I could let it bounce, do I hit it on the fly or let it bounce? I know that I'm more likely to botch the overhead if I hit it on the fly, but if I always take the easy route and let it bounce, then when the time comes to hit it on the fly I won't have the confidence to hit that shot.

2) My down-the-line backhand is much weaker than my cross-court backhand and I get in a scenario where the down-the-line backhand would probably be a winner and the cross-court would just simply keeps the point going. Do you always go cross-court to avoid the lower percentage shot? If I always take the higher percentage shot, then when a time comes that I need the lower-percentage shot it will never be there for me.

3) I am returning serve where the guy hits all kick serves to my backhand. This is not the first time I've dealt with this nor will it be the last. Do I go for the 1-handed topspin drive giving up a few free points or do I slice everything back for the higher percentage of returns. The problem with only being able to slice this kind of ball is that a net man in doubles will eat that up whereas sometimes a firm topspin drive is the only way to get past that net man.

So in short the question is how do you determine when to face your weaknesses in a match verses when to play high percentage and put them on the back burner? To put it frankly, I don't care about my match results at 3.0 or 3.5 levels for any other reason other than to move my rating up to get to a higher level, but I don't want to get to a higher level by always avoiding my weaknesses. I get no satisfaction being a mediocre player so really all I think about is proving to myself that I can become a good player. Its kinda a double-edged sword though. You have to win as much as possible to get moved up, but you also need to work on all areas of your game which can in the short term hurt your match results.

Practice to improve. Play to win.

What I mean by that is you should develop your strokes, your footwork, and your mental game during practice time by doing drills, playing practice sets, and talking strategy with your coach (or playing partner if you don't have a coach). These things should be automatic when you compete so that when the inevitable intangibles come up during a match you can focus on how to change your strategy to win the match as oppose to say, focusing on keeping your tossing arm extended during the serve. In competition it's all about the "W" and you should already have the tools necessary to come out on top.

So I'll say it again: Practice to improve. Play to win.

 

[raiden031]

Wow there are alot of opinions on this subject...so much to take in. So far my strategy of improving my game by of course practicing strokes (ie. ball machine, hitting partner, and wall) and also using them in match play even when I don't necessarily 'own' the shots yet, seems to be working. Evidenced by last two years when I really started getting serious I was losing to all sorts of people and now I manage to win most of my matches.

One thing I will note though is that even though I'm winning more, I purposely do not win by exploiting my opponents weaknesses. I play the same shots no matter who my opponent is, with the only caveat being whether or not I serve and volley. Basically if I can play consistently from the baseline, I will stay back alot. If I am having a bad baseline day or my opponent never makes a mistake (ie. pusher), I will S&V every chance I get. Other than that, I will not target backhands and I go for shots that would be most effective against advanced players who are strong on both wings, not shots that are most effective against my current opponent. I'm sure this strategy will get me alot of criticism, but its because I am trying to look further into the future than just the opponent right in front of me. Thats why I don't target the woman in mixed or serve every ball to an opponents backhand, when clearly both work well at my level.

My expectations for myself are simple. If I cannot outplay my opponent by hitting with more pace, spin, depth, placement, and consistency, I don't deserve to beat him. I don't take any shortcuts to beat him (ie. drop shots, moonballs, targeting one side only, etc.), I just practice improving each of my shots until his game is no longer able to defeat mine. This might seem a little crazy, but believe me when the day comes that my game stops improving, then I will start worrying how to exploit an opponent who might otherwise beat me.

 

[5263]

Well, at least you answered the question of where this thinking gets started. As a beginner, anytime you get on the court, you pretty much get better, as you are so far away from your potential that any work is good work; so to speak.

Just like when someone starts lifting wts. They start to get stronger no matter how bad their routine is, cause whatever it is they are doing, it includes doing something more than doing nothing, which is where they were. Often they get so hooked on these poor routines that they won't leave them even after they stop improving. Maybe not even then.

I had a friend in my Navy Squadron that I used to lift with on the carrier when we weren't flying. We were in our 30's at the time and he had never benched more than 265, even in his college football days. He asked for some help to get to 285 lbs, because that would be more than his twin bro. I suggested he should hit 315 easy with a better routine and he couldn't believe it. He was used to overtraining badly, but didn't understand. So he committed to do just my routine for 3 months, even though he thought it was too easy.

In 2 months he hit 300 and in 3 he joined me at a 325 pound bench press! Guess what? He went back to his old routine, cause he didn't feel like he was getting enough work with the new one. And his max went back down to 275.

Guess you will do what you enjoy, and that's not such a bad thing, even if it's not for the best result.

 

[rocket]

Practice to improve. Play to win.

What I mean by that is you should develop your strokes, your footwork, and your mental game during practice time by doing drills, playing practice sets, and talking strategy with your coach (or playing partner if you don't have a coach). These things should be automatic when you compete so that when the inevitable intangibles come up during a match you can focus on how to change your strategy to win the match as oppose to say, focusing on keeping your tossing arm extended during the serve. In competition it's all about the "W" and you should already have the tools necessary to come out on top.

So I'll say it again: Practice to improve. Play to win.

You nailed it right here!

 

[TonyB]

But You were not really hitting under pressure as during that time your matches were just practice matchplay. You had to say, ah what the heck, I'm just going to hit it anyway. "I don't care if I lose".

Well, I'm pretty sure it's not as simple as you make it sound. I DID care if I lost. But that wasn't my ONLY motivation. I realized that unless I improved my MATCH PLAY backhand, I would never be able to advance my rating. So that's what I did. But by actually TRYING to hit my weaker shots in a match, I was able to focus more on the shot and hit the ball with a specific purpose while under the pressure to win. You just don't get that opportunity in practice.

What I'm saying is that I disagree with the idea of doing ANYTHING to win. You'll never improve by doing that. You need to focus on the specific details of HOW you can go about improving your game and try to incorporate those into matches. Until you do that, you haven't improved. At least in my book.

 

[5263]

Practice to Improve, then

Play to Win!

you got it

 

[kv123]

First of all if this is doubles you want to play percentages. Singles its all you so you can choose between going for it or not. DOUBLES IT ALL ABOUT SETTING UP THE NET PERSON. You do whats best for your guy at net and what won't get him killed.

 

[stormholloway]

Practice to improve. Play to win.

What I mean by that is you should develop your strokes, your footwork, and your mental game during practice time by doing drills, playing practice sets, and talking strategy with your coach (or playing partner if you don't have a coach). These things should be automatic when you compete so that when the inevitable intangibles come up during a match you can focus on how to change your strategy to win the match as oppose to say, focusing on keeping your tossing arm extended during the serve. In competition it's all about the "W" and you should already have the tools necessary to come out on top.

So I'll say it again: Practice to improve. Play to win.

How in the hell do you develop your mental game in practice? I can testify personally that this will not work, and really doesn't even make sense.

I agree with TonyB's approach. Develop your match game IN matches. That's the only way to do it. There are times that I've won because I've just put the ball in play knowing that the other guy would make an error. But what did that get me? A check mark in my win column? That's worth nothing. I wasn't improving.

I need to start approaching matches as if they are simply drill sessions or practice, because that's what they are ultimately.