playing to win or to improve

[Bungalo Bill]

How in the hell do you develop your mental game in practice? I can testify personally that this will not work, and really doesn't even make sense.

Are you kidding me? If you are going to prance around and hit a few balls, then you are right, YOU will never know what practice can do for your mental training.

Practice is not just about hitting a ball over the net. It is many other things that I am just dying to debate you on. Please continue...here is some information just for you.

http://www.mycoachonline.com/AA_Content/index.lasso?Content_ID=H010_SWIK04_Y6009A&UniqID=0217B8RA8Q

 

[Hot Sauce]

Hot Sauce,
Got to differ with you on this. It is logical to some extent what you say, but it is flawed logic, swayed by an excuse for losing or fear of committing to the effort to win.

If you are not playing to win, you are missing valuable experience that helps you win later, along with those improving strokes.

The only person that your approach will help you beat in the long run, is the guy who never improves his strokes with practice and just accepts his game at the level it's at and wins thru hustle and/or junk balls only.

If a player practices right and competes right, just practicing thru your matchplay will never catch him. (other things being equal)
Playing to win is something you have to work at too!

League Teams are full of guys like you describe, who have put pretty strokes above playing to win and everyone always wonders why these guys never win. It's really a pretty common mistake in our sport.

In my opinion you shouldn't decide on one or the other. Maintain a balance between them. But since you said you don't care about match results, then definitely lean it towards improving.

You must've misinterpreted what I wrote. I didn't say don't play to win.

 

[stormholloway]

Are you kidding me? If you are going to prance around and hit a few balls, then you are right, YOU will never know what practice can do for your mental training.

Practice is not just about hitting a ball over the net. It is many other things that I am just dying to debate you on. Please continue...here is some information just for you.

http://www.mycoachonline.com/AA_Content/index.lasso?Content_ID=H010_SWIK04_Y6009A&UniqID=0217B8RA8Q

It's about many other things huh?

Please illuminate us on how one develops the mental side of the game to any significant degree while practicing, oh wise one.

 

[tarheels2323]

How in the hell do you develop your mental game in practice? I can testify personally that this will not work, and really doesn't even make sense.

I agree with TonyB's approach. Develop your match game IN matches. That's the only way to do it. There are times that I've won because I've just put the ball in play knowing that the other guy would make an error. But what did that get me? A check mark in my win column? That's worth nothing. I wasn't improving.

I need to start approaching matches as if they are simply drill sessions or practice, because that's what they are ultimately.

Before I comment, can you please tell me what level you've played at (not NTRP) and whether or not you have any coaching certifications? I can guess but that would be rude.

 

[stormholloway]

I'm ranked number one in the world and have coached three different world number ones.

What difference does it make? I realize that practice, to some extent, can develop your mental game, but that will only take you so far. I've spent a great deal of my time only practicing, not playing any matches. Then I found a hitting partner who only played matches and things completely changed. I was not the same player from the baseline as I was in practice.

Are you implying that practice can even close to real match experience for developing the mental side of tennis? If you are, then go ahead and explain it.

 

[TonyB]

I suppose you could "practice" by playing points and games, but what's the difference between that and match play?

As far as I'm concerned, the only REAL way to tell if you own a shot is to use it during a match. You know, where if you miss the shot, you lose the point. "Practice" sessions just don't have that type of value, I'm sorry. Otherwise, the mental pressure just isn't there.

I really can't see how you can argue otherwise. At certain levels, the difference between players is almost ALL mental. And there are numerous examples of players that actually HAVE all the shots, but lack the mental toughness of match play, especially when they're losing. They just collapse.

Go ahead and tell them that they should just hit the practice courts more often. See how far they improve with that advice.

 

[stormholloway]

Isn't this why experience is considered such a great factor? When people talk about experience they're talking about match experience, not experience on the practice court.

Also, it's often mentioned in the finals of big tournaments that certain players have "had it too easy" on their road to the final and that one player may have an advantage because he's "been in a pressure situation" such as a 5 setter. Nothing can simulate that experience.

 

[5263]

Of course there are things you get out of matches towards being match tough. But you don't get them if you just play to improve, you get them by playing to win. That's why the guy with the tougher route to the finals is more ready, while the guy with the easy path didn't have to focus on pulling out the win and could just play his game without much focus on his opponent, may not be as sharp.

I just read a post by TonyB for a guy with a C-level BH, and he suggested practice not matches to get it better. This is what we are saying. Once you feel you have the shot, By all means, start working it in matches for that last competitive touch.

 

[TonyB]

I just read a post by TonyB for a guy with a C-level BH, and he suggested practice not matches to get it better. This is what we are saying. Once you feel you have the shot, By all means, start working it in matches for that last competitive touch.

Well, if you're going to C-level, then why ask the question at all? It's obvious they need more practice before they can really even HIT the shot to begin with.

If my mother wanted to learn how to hit a one-hander, of course I'd be telling her to hit the practice courts. But I didn't think that's what this thread was about. I thought this thread was about taking one's game to the next level, improving your shots so you can move up your rating. Not how to learn from square-1.

 

[Deleted member 25923]

One of the annoying byproducts of adopting a "play to improve" mindset is all of that winning that ends up happening.

So annoying. I'm gonna try this. I need to get my backhand better.

 

[5263]

It's all the same. square one is just the first level. That guy with the c-BH is probably a 3.0-3.5 player, looking to get to the next level.

 

[tarheels2323]

I'm ranked number one in the world and have coached three different world number ones.

What difference does it make? I realize that practice, to some extent, can develop your mental game, but that will only take you so far. I've spent a great deal of my time only practicing, not playing any matches. Then I found a hitting partner who only played matches and things completely changed. I was not the same player from the baseline as I was in practice.

Are you implying that practice can even close to real match experience for developing the mental side of tennis? If you are, then go ahead and explain it.

Irregardless of your unhelpful attitude, your response told me exactly what I wanted to know. On a lighter note, I'm almost certain that Roger Federer wasn't coaching world number ones at 12 years old.

Anyway, here's the deal. The pressure of a match situation is, indeed, the toughest test of your mental game. But, like your strokes, your mental game needs to be developed during practice.

The reason I asked about your experience was to gauge what your practices are like. Your response tells me that they're laid back and geared toward recreation, and without a coach. If you have ever drilled with a coach or pro that knows what he's (or she's) doing, you'll be put in pressure situations that develop and test your mental game at near match levels. It's all about how your approach practice. Does every shot count? Are you working as hard as you would in a tournament final? Also, your response indicates that you have little or no experience playing on a team where players challenge up and the outcome of a few sets played during practice can mean a starting spot.

I'm not trying to be rude, but players with higher level experience know what I'm talking about. Like everything else, your mental game needs to be developed before you set foot on a court for a match that counts. Preparation is everything.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

TonyB[/B]
Unless you're willing to actually TRY to hit your weakest shots in actual matches, they'll never be there for you when it really counts. You have to LEARN how to hit those shots while under pressure.

I don't know where this kind of thinking ever gets started. It is probably the surest way to never, ever get past 4.5 tennis.

Well I guess the guy who asked the question will have to read these posts and see who he can agree with. Hopefully he can see that when you don't ever play to win, you have become only a practice player for life and have cheated yourself out of learning to win by relegating everything to mere practice.

I see these guys everyday on the courts, pretending to be good with their smooth, pretty swings, but can't win a set except when they face another pretender. The excuse is, it is about getting better, but they never get there. The only ones they fool are themselves and the 3.5 and below. They are the 4.5 players that get hammered by 4.0 players and don't know why, but the 3.0 players tell them how good they are cause they don't know any better.
"I don't know why I can't beat that guy, my stokes are so much better than his", is what you hear them whisper to their friends.

In practice and practice matches, you learn to hit your shots.
In real matches, you PROVE you can hit your shots.

I think you are making a bigger deal then what Tony is trying to say.

Tony is not incorrect in his thinking. Eventually, a player needs to introduce something he/she has been working on in practice to "test" it and put it under different pressure for improvement.

I understand where you are coming from regarding winning matches but at the same time you are stretching the truth.

 

[5263]

Bill,
I agree that thru this discussion, things are coming to more of a common ground. Seems that Tony is agreeing that quality practice is where you develop a shot, and I can agree that the shot is not fully developed until it is battle proven and used in real matches. Clearly you can come to this question from opposite sides. Each of our concerns come from looking at the more extreme examples of the point we make, as most players balance this process out well enough and continue to improve.

Tony and others have seen those who dink and chip and lob, who's games never seem to improve over the years. The big difference is I still have great respect for this group, as they know how to compete and they hit the shots they enjoy and like in tennis. They may be 3.5 or 4.0 for life, but it's better than being a 5.0 peacock who can't really play. There is nothing wrong with not having a blistering TS FH, anymore than not having an on the money short angle chip or sweet lob. People hate these players cause they are so hard to beat, so they talk them down.

My observation is just that there are so many more players out there who can sort of look good in a rally, but don't really compete very well. They use this whole good stroke thing as their big excuse for losing. Sort of hard to appreciate these stroke snobs as they take the league team down each week. So often it comes thru the mindsets expressed in this thread about how if they can't win hitting a certain way, then a win means nothing to them. "yes, I lost again, but it was just those pushers and lobbers again".
Well, Sampras is about the only player I have ever seen win by just playing his game. Even he had a couple of soft spots to cover. Amazing how a second serve ace on break point does that. Everyone else has to modify their approach to some extent, based on whats effective for them in the match up. Look how Steffi, greatest womans singles player ever, rarely hit over her BH and used a pretty odd FH too. Too bad she could never become a real player and dominate matches with her TS BH or learn to hit a proper FH.

Hitting a nice ball is super and fun to work on, but it's only about a 1/4 of this game.

 

[5263]

Not sure what truth I'm stretching?
But went back to the orig question and noticed something.

Playing to win is playing to improve.

But playing to improve is not really playing to win. (at least on that day)