Playing Up a Level

[mpnv1990]

Why does the USTA let you play up a level regardless of where your dynamic rating is? For example, if you have a 2.51 dynamic rating, you’re a 3.0C and eligible to play 3.5.

I think that you should have to be in the upper third of your current rating to play at the next level. That would require a dynamic rating of 2.843 or higher in my above example.

IMO, the current rules reduce to quality of league play. I know of somebody who needs an ego check. They went 0-8 in 3.5, 0 sets won, and 23 games total. They are not even a mid level 3.0, let alone a 3.5.

 

[schmke]

What you outline is a case where most would say the player shouldn't be playing up, including me.

Why does the USTA allow it? Four primary reasons I think:

1. Give player an opportunity to challenge themselves to try to improve - This is fine if the player is ready for the challenge, it does not when they aren't as it creates lopsided matches for the at-level player which aren't terribly fulfilling.
2. Let a player "fix" the USTA missing on their year-end level - Say someone should have been bumped up but the algorithm missed, but the player "knows" it and chooses to play up and not feast on the players at their level.
3. It lets a team fill out a roster to be viable which allows the higher level players to have a team and play.
4. Increase league revenue - If they let someone play up, that is an additional league fee.

It could be the fourth is the real reason and the first three are just rationalizations, and the problem with the first two is it puts the decision in the hands of the player with limited information and is done on the honor system where they have to opt-out of playing up if they aren't good enough to compete, or opt-in to doing so if they somehow know they are too good for their level. The third is probably valid and actually comes into play when a team goes to Nationals and has to move up and wants to stay together and has some players that weren't bumped up.

Could the USTA only allow players to play up if they were in the top half or third of their level? Sure, but that would be more work than they have to do today, they'd have to either publish a list or have the system check when registering and not allow it. I think they should do it, but if it would decrease league revenues, what is the incentive for them to do it?

One could argue league revenues are decreasing due to players abandoning league play because playing up is allowed, but they must think this is a smaller number than they are gaining by letting folks play up.

 

[mpnv1990]

@schmke Incentive is the right word. Things must have gotten really sh*tty in the Southern section for them to make a change.

In addition, the “3.5” clinic that I attend has no incentive to check ratings because people like me keep showing up anyways. Half of the people who show up aren’t even 3.5s. I wonder if other places across the country check ratings or not for their clinics?

 

[cks]

3. It lets a team fill out a roster to be viable which allows the higher level players to have a team and play.

I think the captains would control this themselves and only allow players to join their 3.5 teams where they felt the players were strong 3.0s. However, if I was short players for an upcoming match, I would rather put in a 3.0C players (even in the lower band) then default lines. I just want to play tennis.

 

[ichaseballs]

it also helps players move up faster, or get DQ'd (if they win easily at the higher level)

 

[cks]

I wonder if other places across the country check ratings or not for their clinics?

I've never seen anyone check or confirm a player's NTRP to attend a clinic. And I've run into players who tell me there NTRP is one thing, but when I go and check the USTA website, I see a different rating for them or none at all.

I cracked up when I see folks respond to facebook posts stating they are a 3.0-3.5 player. That just tells me that they don't play USTA league. I've played 3.0 and 3.5 league, and both bands are really wide. In my mind, I put players into three (3) sub bands of low/med/high for the 3.0 and 3.5 league.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

To expand on @schmke well written post, there are teams at 4.5 that wouldn't make a team but for the 4.0s on it, and the area wouldn't have more than 1 team of 4.5s to play each other to have the category.

 

[mpnv1990]

To expand on @schmke well written post, there are teams at 4.5 that wouldn't make a team but for the 4.0s on it, and the area wouldn't have more than 1 team of 4.5s to play each other to have the category.

Perhaps they could make exceptions where necessary, but that isn’t a problem at the 3.5 level.

 

[mpnv1990]

I've never seen anyone check or confirm a player's NTRP to attend a clinic. And I've run into players who tell me there NTRP is one thing, but when I go and check the USTA website, I see a different rating for them or none at all.

I cracked up when I see folks respond to facebook posts stating they are a 3.0-3.5 player. That just tells me that they don't play USTA league. I've played 3.0 and 3.5 league, and both bands are really wide. In my mind, I put players into three (3) sub bands of low/med/high for the 3.0 and 3.5 league.

The advanced clinic where I play at actually checks ratings, but the one I go to doesn’t. I don’t think that’s fair tbh.

 

[schmke]

To expand on @schmke well written post, there are teams at 4.5 that wouldn't make a team but for the 4.0s on it, and the area wouldn't have more than 1 team of 4.5s to play each other to have the category.

Exactly.

My 18+ team this year for example had three 4.0s on it to get our roster to 16, and they were needed several times to avoid defaulting matches and fared pretty well going a combined 3-3. Now, my captain doesn't just take any 4.0, these were all highly rated 4.0s and there is a chance one or two get bumped up, so I think this was a legit case for playing up.

My 40+ team was worse though, roster of 12 with four 4.0s playing up, so we only had eight 4.5s rostered. We could not have fielded a team with just eight so having the 4.0s allowed us to have a team and play. And on this team, the 4.0s went 9-7.

 

[ktx]

posts stating they are a 3.0-3.5 player

Yes this is always a tell! I have had clinics where the pros will confirm someone's actual rating before letting them in, but it's rare. I am also seeing a lot of people playing up this year in our area. I find it annoying when someone is not competetive but otherwise it does not bother me.

 

[Purestriker]

Exactly.

My 18+ team this year for example had three 4.0s on it to get our roster to 16, and they were needed several times to avoid defaulting matches and fared pretty well going a combined 3-3. Now, my captain doesn't just take any 4.0, these were all highly rated 4.0s and there is a chance one or two get bumped up, so I think this was a legit case for playing up.

My 40+ team was worse though, roster of 12 with four 4.0s playing up, so we only had eight 4.5s rostered. We could not have fielded a team with just eight so having the 4.0s allowed us to have a team and play. And on this team, the 4.0s went 9-7.

Not allowing it would devastate smaller cities as there are not enough 4.5's to field teams.

 

[ngoster]

IMO, I like the option to play up a level. It should be the individual's choice. I'm sure it isn't all that fun for the person that the OP mentioned to have their butts handed to them every match. Additionally, having played 4.0 for a few decades now, there are plenty of 4.0 rated players who play well below that rating.

Personally, I was dropped down from 4.0 to 3.5 and, currently, play 4.0 flex. At least half of the players in my flight (including me) are 3.5. Sadly, I struggle more playing true 3.5 guys than those who are closer to the 4.0 level or are 4.0.

Now here's a semi-tangent thought...
I've been playing mixed to be paired up with a 4.5 lady and have been having a ton of fun. She's moving away so my goal has been to get bumped back up to 4.0. However, as I think about it more, since I've given up my asperations to get to 4.5, I feel totally fine being rated at 3.5. There are clear advantages with few, if no, disadvantages:

1. I can play up a level (which I prefer to do) so I'm not missing out on anything there.
2. When I play up, the expectations are lower so when I perform up, it's just more fun. It's also more fun to come into any match with the thought that my opponent, especially the 4.0s, think that I am a true 3.5.
3. If you are a true 3.5 or lower, you always have the option to play at that level to get in a few needed confidence booster wins.

I'm constantly hearing complaints about sandbagging at sectionals but I'm rethinking that those players may be playing at their true levels. With that, I'm thinking of spreading the word of getting the 4.0 guys to drop down to 3.5 within my tennis circle. Again, unless they have asperations of playing 4.5 leagues (which I don't know if any are or have the desire to), being rated lower and playing up is a very good thing.

 

[TennisOTM]

I wonder if other places across the country check ratings or not for their clinics?

One in my area has been somewhat selective for their 4.0+ clinics. I'm not sure it works well for them when they are strict about it - it might create more ill will that outweighs the benefits. Some pretty good players enjoy the clinics and have no interest in official competition, so they don't have a rating. Then it comes down to the eye test, which can be awkward.

I think the ideal scenario is to let your clients self-select their level (with guidance) to avoid burning bridges, then have multiple courts at the clinic and let the pros tactfully assign the players by court to give the best experience to everyone.

 

[PK6]

No no no!!! USTA needs to get rid of self ratings!!! You play at your level not below it!!! That promotes sandbagging!!!

 

[Pass750]

IMO, I like the option to play up a level. It should be the individual's choice. I'm sure it isn't all that fun for the person that the OP mentioned to have their butts handed to them every match. Additionally, having played 4.0 for a few decades now, there are plenty of 4.0 rated players who play well below that rating.

Personally, I was dropped down from 4.0 to 3.5 and, currently, play 4.0 flex. At least half of the players in my flight (including me) are 3.5. Sadly, I struggle more playing true 3.5 guys than those who are closer to the 4.0 level or are 4.0.

Now here's a semi-tangent thought...
I've been playing mixed to be paired up with a 4.5 lady and have been having a ton of fun. She's moving away so my goal has been to get bumped back up to 4.0. However, as I think about it more, since I've given up my asperations to get to 4.5, I feel totally fine being rated at 3.5. There are clear advantages with few, if no, disadvantages:

1. I can play up a level (which I prefer to do) so I'm not missing out on anything there.
2. When I play up, the expectations are lower so when I perform up, it's just more fun. It's also more fun to come into any match with the thought that my opponent, especially the 4.0s, think that I am a true 3.5.
3. If you are a true 3.5 or lower, you always have the option to play at that level to get in a few needed confidence booster wins.

I'm constantly hearing complaints about sandbagging at sectionals but I'm rethinking that those players may be playing at their true levels. With that, I'm thinking of spreading the word of getting the 4.0 guys to drop down to 3.5 within my tennis circle. Again, unless they have asperations of playing 4.5 leagues (which I don't know if any are or have the desire to), being rated lower and playing up is a very good thing.

What about the opponents who are looking for a competitive match but instead get someone who isn't at that level and get a non-competitive match? Rec tennis matches are best when opponents are relatively evenly matched.

 

[cks]

What about the opponents who are looking for a competitive match but instead get someone who isn't at that level and get a non-competitive match?

This can still happen when both players are 3.5C. One player could have a dynamic NTRP of 3.49 playing against 3.01 in singles and smoke the 3.01 player 6-0, 6-0.

Rec tennis matches are best when opponents are relatively evenly matched.

Agreed. But there is no guarantee every USTA league match will line up this way. And in my section, there is no rule against stacking so captains can sacrifice D1 with their weakest doubles pair and try to pickup wins on D2 and D3.

 

[ngoster]

I completely agree with @cks. At the rec level, especially with USTA's self rating system, I've experienced more players rating themselves higher than they should be.

What happened to the older system where they actually describe specific skillsets like being able to hit certain types of shots rather than just qualifying a new player by athletic experience? Seriously, with the new system, you just have to had played some sports to be 3.0.

 

[GrassCourtFan]

This can still happen when both players are 3.5C. One player could have a dynamic NTRP of 3.49 playing against 3.01 in singles and smoke the 3.01 player 6-0, 6-0.

And it's more likely when players are separated by a level, because one player could have a dynamic NTRP of 3.99 playing against someone who is a 3.01...

 

[cks]

And it's more likely when players are separated by a level, because one player could have a dynamic NTRP of 3.99 playing against someone who is a 3.01...

Also true.

But like I've said before, I would rather play tennis, then default lines. And allowing players to play up is one way to address it. I still think captains could help prevent a low 3.0 from playing up on a 3.5 team. I know I wouldn't want any low 3.0s on my 3.5 team, unless we were going to default lines.

 

[J_R_B]

No no no!!! USTA needs to get rid of self ratings!!! You play at your level not below it!!! That promotes sandbagging!!!

Ok, USTA bot. I think you got the wires crossed in your AI brain this time. This thread is about people playing up, not down.

 

[J_R_B]

What you outline is a case where most would say the player shouldn't be playing up, including me.

Why does the USTA allow it? Four primary reasons I think:

1. Give player an opportunity to challenge themselves to try to improve - This is fine if the player is ready for the challenge, it does not when they aren't as it creates lopsided matches for the at-level player which aren't terribly fulfilling.
2. Let a player "fix" the USTA missing on their year-end level - Say someone should have been bumped up but the algorithm missed, but the player "knows" it and chooses to play up and not feast on the players at their level.
3. It lets a team fill out a roster to be viable which allows the higher level players to have a team and play.
4. Increase league revenue - If they let someone play up, that is an additional league fee.

It could be the fourth is the real reason and the first three are just rationalizations, and the problem with the first two is it puts the decision in the hands of the player with limited information and is done on the honor system where they have to opt-out of playing up if they aren't good enough to compete, or opt-in to doing so if they somehow know they are too good for their level. The third is probably valid and actually comes into play when a team goes to Nationals and has to move up and wants to stay together and has some players that weren't bumped up.

Could the USTA only allow players to play up if they were in the top half or third of their level? Sure, but that would be more work than they have to do today, they'd have to either publish a list or have the system check when registering and not allow it. I think they should do it, but if it would decrease league revenues, what is the incentive for them to do it?

One could argue league revenues are decreasing due to players abandoning league play because playing up is allowed, but they must think this is a smaller number than they are gaining by letting folks play up.

5 is that they USTA doesn't want to give away any information about DNTRP ratings.

 

[Purestriker]

Ok, USTA bot. I think you got the wires crossed in your AI brain this time. This thread is about people playing up, not down.

Ha! They must have alerts set for any thread that lists the USTA.

 

[schmke]

5 is that they USTA doesn't want to give away any information about DNTRP ratings.

Yeah, that is why they don't implement something like only allowing players to play up if they are within some range of the top of the level. But this wouldn't be a whole lot different than allowing appeals which they do.

 

[LOBALOT]

How do you know what your dynamic rating is for it to be an issue?

You really don't know if it is 2.51 or 2.99. tennisreporting, etc. is not your actual dynamic rating. I have seen it pretty far off.

I think as a captain that is why I evaluate my current roster, potential future roster and plans, the current and what I believe the future level of the player and then determine if it makes sense to have them join my team.

For a player to play up on the team it is really the captain that determines if they will accept the player not the player picking to play on the team without the captains acceptance of the player.

 

[cks]

For a player to play up on the team it is really the captain that determines if they will accept the player

+1

 

[mpnv1990]

How do you know what your dynamic rating is for it to be an issue?

You really don't know if it is 2.51 or 2.99. tennisreporting, etc. is not your actual dynamic rating. I have seen it pretty far off.

I think as a captain that is why I evaluate my current roster, potential future roster and plans, the current and what I believe the future level of the player and then determine if it makes sense to have them join my team.

For a player to play up on the team it is really the captain that determines if they will accept the player not the player picking to play on the team without the captains acceptance of the player.

You can tell with your own two eyes plus match results if somebody is closer to a 2.51 or 2.99. Tennis Record is relative accurate at determining if someone if lower, middle, or upper.

 

[LOBALOT]

You can tell with your own two eyes plus match results if somebody is closer to a 2.51 or 2.99. Tennis Record is relative accurate at determining if someone if lower, middle, or upper.

Exactly but it is nothing more than that. Moreover, most players over inflate what they think they are. Moreso, then that the captain make sure they monitor their roster and who joins it.

Also, tennis record is not great either but sure for that level of granularity it sometimes can be useful. I have seen players low in that rating get bumped and I have seen players rated highly who are awful.

As a captain I see a lot of guys who claim to be really good dubs players and think they play great when they are paired with Joe of Fred. However, put them with Frank and they complain. Are they really good or is it their partner?

As a captain I really enjoy those types of guys on my team.....

 

[romano]

I have no issue with players wanting to play up. I do have an issue when (I'll use a 3.5 team as an example) two 3.0's pair up in a match and end up playing against two 3.5's. While playing up is fine, I don't think USTA should allow players that play up to play together. It's not a good recipe for a competitive match, in my opinion. If you play up, you should be paired with an at-level partner.

 

[LOBALOT]

I have no issue with players wanting to play up. I do have an issue when (I'll use a 3.5 team as an example) two 3.0's pair up in a match and end up playing against two 3.5's. While playing up is fine, I don't think USTA should allow players that play up to play together. It's not a good recipe for a competitive match, in my opinion. If you play up, you should be paired with an at-level partner.

It's up to the captain again and what their plans are for the team. I do my best each year to try to invest in a few guys for the future. If I am confident I can hold down 3 courts I will put the pair out there at 3 dubs and see what they can do. That is part of being a captain.

The rest of the guys know what I am doing and are good with it. I have been doing this for 15 years or so now.

 

[cks]

I don't think USTA should allow players that play up to play together.

I think it should be up to the captain to decide how they want to setup their lineups. Some captains may want to setup their teams for equal play time, while others may want to make winning a priority.

 

[Purestriker]

Exactly but it is nothing more than that. Moreover, most players over inflate what they think they are. Moreso, then that the captain make sure they monitor their roster and who joins it.

Also, tennis record is not great either but sure for that level of granularity it sometimes can be useful. I have seen players low in that rating get bumped and I have seen players rated highly who are awful.

As a captain I see a lot of guys who claim to be really good dubs players and think they play great when they are paired with Joe of Fred. However, put them with Frank and they complain. Are they really good or is it their partner?

As a captain I really enjoy those types of guys on my team.....

Sometimes it is a mismatch issue. I have seen plenty of strong 3.5's lose their mind against a pusher and end up losing or close to losing. They simply don't matchup well or have the patience to implement a game plan for a player that doesn't give them pace.

 

[LOBALOT]

Sometimes it is a mismatch issue. I have seen plenty of strong 3.5's lose their mind against a pusher and end up losing or close to losing. They simply don't matchup well or have the patience to implement a game plan for a player that doesn't give them pace.

Certainly there is but by now I see that too. I know who I play better with and who I don't. I know the guys and their personalities and their style of play.

Usually it is the other way where a player with an over inflated ego who thinks they are better than they are.

Ask any captain with a few decent dubs players on their roster. The other guys come by usually on their own when no one else is around...

Player A... "You know... Tony and I play great together"
Player B... "Gosh... Have you thought about putting me with Tony?"
Player C..."Man.... Tony is so aggressive at the net you know I served great last week". Meanwhile Player C's partner last week reported 6 double faults and getting peppered at the net by short/weak 2nd serves.

It is really funny.

You know it could be that Tony is really really good. You don't think I as a captain see that just like Players A, B, C?

I could put one of those guys playing up (the original post) and they would play great with Tony too!

 

[LOBALOT]

Heck.... I want to partner with Tony!!!!!!

 

[Purestriker]

Certainly there is but by now I see that too. I know who I play better with and who I don't. I know the guys and their personalities and their style of play.

Usually it is the other way where a player with an over inflated ego who thinks they are better than they are.

Ask any captain with a few decent dubs players on their roster. The other guys come by usually on their own when no one else is around...

Player A... "You know... Tony and I play great together"
Player B... "Gosh... Have you thought about putting me with Tony?"
Player C..."Man.... Tony is so aggressive at the net you know I served great last week". Meanwhile Player C's partner last week reported 6 double faults and getting peppered at the net by short/weak 2nd serves.

It is really funny.

You know it could be that Tony is really really good. You don't think I as a captain see that just like Players A, B, C?

I could put one of those guys playing up (the original post) and they would play great with Tony too!

Been a captain for 5 years. Know those folks well and I replace them. Ha.

 

[LOBALOT]

Been a captain for 5 years. Know those folks well and I replace them. Ha.

Exactly, the funny thing is it is never the really good players that suggest they want to play with so and so as they know they can play with whomever and do well. They also have enough confidence in me that I will put good pairings out there.

It is usually not the weaker guys (like me) as they/we are just happy to get our few matches per year at 3 dubs vs. an appropriate team and drink post match beer.

It is usually the middle range guy that is.... ok.... not great..... but thinks they are phenomenal.

 

[TennisOTM]

I think the system is fine the way it is. Let the captains fill their lineups with under-level players if they need to. I've seen cases where players simply cannot play in the league at their level - e.g. if 3.0 plays on Tuesdays and 3.5 plays on Thursdays, and a 3.0 player has to work on Tuesdays. If they can find a 3.5 captain to play them then go for it.

To opposing captains it is obvious which teams are regularly playing under-level players and they can set their lineups accordingly. The teams using under-level players are not trying to win the league with strategic stacking. From what I've seen the under-level players are nearly always at the lowest lines, so it is predictable and the opposing captains can avoid putting their best players against them (unless that's what they want).

 

[BallBag]

As a scrub playing up at a level I don’t belong in, I can give some context. The short answer is that I’m not getting good matches at my level when playing 18+ gender.

The difference between the upper third and lower third is too high and the match is not competitive. Then you have scrubs from the level below playing up further diluting the player pool. Then the 2 teams that are playing for post-season collect most of the upper third players and the other teams have everyone else. So if I want to improve my chances of having a good match, I have to shrink my season to only play the 2 out of 8 good teams.

Add in a sprinkle of narcissism where I would rather lose to a much better player than have a competitive match with a mid- level player and you get me playing out of level and ruining someone else’s experience.

 

[mpournaras]

I dont mind people playing up... I just dont want to be penalized for double bageling a guy playing up. It has reduced my DTR many times. Its not my fault I got stuck with that lineup that particular night.

Now I see teams that are mostly people playing up and I mark myself unavailable for the night... Is that what USTA wants? I think it is an interesting issue.

 

[TennisOTM]

I saw one guy get bumped down even though he never played at level. He was a 2.5-rated player and the lowest league available was 3.0. He lost every match, including bad losses to other 2.5 players who were also playing up. At the end of the year he got a 2.0C rating.

 

[mpnv1990]

I saw one guy get bumped down even though he never played at level. He was a 2.5-rated player and the lowest league available was 3.0. He lost every match, including bad losses to other 2.5 players who were also playing up. At the end of the year he got a 2.0C rating.

He might as well quit tennis!

 

[mpnv1990]

I dont mind people playing up... I just dont want to be penalized for double bageling a guy playing up. It has reduced my DTR many times. Its not my fault I got stuck with that lineup that particular night.

Now I see teams that are mostly people playing up and I mark myself unavailable for the night... Is that what USTA wants? I think it is an interesting issue.

When I was playing 3.5 last year, I nearly had a disastrous result playing against two 3.0 players. I managed to get out with a win. After that, I sat out matches against teams that were virtually all 3.0.

@schmke would know way more about this than me, but the USTA probably only goes in 0.5 level increments because it would be too costly to go smaller.

 

[schmke]

When I was playing 3.5 last year, I nearly had a disastrous result playing against two 3.0 players. I managed to get out with a win. After that, I sat out matches against teams that were virtually all 3.0.

@schmke would know way more about this than me, but the USTA probably only goes in 0.5 level increments because it would be too costly to go smaller.

In large/metro areas, there are enough players at the 0.5 increment levels that the levels could be smaller and still have critical mass for flights/teams at each level, at least at the 3.0 to 4.0 levels. But at the higher levels, and especially in less populated areas, narrower levels wouldn't be sustainable as there simply wouldn't be enough players to field the requisite number of teams to have a competition.

Note that Georgia, in particular Atlanta, which has a lot of players, they do have "low" flights where players in the lower 0.3-0.35 of a level have a flight just for them, presumably so they don't have to play against those rated higher in the level. These flights only advance through States and not farther IRC, but they manage to pull them off.

So other areas could probably do this, but asking National to do anything to reduce how broad each level is probably won't happen.

 

[fishepa]

I'm a computer rated 3.0 but I play 3.5 level because I find 3.0 tennis to be boring. My dynamic rating on tennisrecord is 3.14 and everyone always wonders how I haven't been bumped up to 3.5 yet. So I just play 3.5 anyway.

 

[loveallcats]

To expand on @schmke well written post, there are teams at 4.5 that wouldn't make a team but for the 4.0s on it, and the area wouldn't have more than 1 team of 4.5s to play each other to have the category.

This is the case for my area. We don't have enough 4.0's for a team, or 4.5's for a team, so we do a 4.5 where the 4.0's play up.

 

[loveallcats]

I have no issue with players wanting to play up. I do have an issue when (I'll use a 3.5 team as an example) two 3.0's pair up in a match and end up playing against two 3.5's. While playing up is fine, I don't think USTA should allow players that play up to play together. It's not a good recipe for a competitive match, in my opinion. If you play up, you should be paired with an at-level partner.

Me and another 4.0 played up together a few times at 4.5 this last season and won all of our matches against two 4.5 players, so it can be competitive.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

This is the case for my area. We don't have enough 4.0's for a team, or 4.5's for a team, so we do a 4.5 where the 4.0's play up.

What area of the country are you in? I'm always curious about tennis in different areas.

 

[Slicehand]

I cant play up a level, im the goat

 

[GrassCourtFan]

Yeah, I think stuff like that is the main reason playing up is supported, and it's the right reason to do it. If you actually believe your rating is too low and you're correct about it, you can just play up and have good matches at the next level up.

 

[loveallcats]

What area of the country are you in? I'm always curious about tennis in different

Pacific NW, Washington