Spot on. And he says "hit the ball before it bounces". Also known as a volley. And he seems to be reccomending the OP stand in "mid court". Also known as "no man's land" unless you're approaching or retrieving. He also claims to be a "child prodigy" in his first post on the forum, and says he has had a significant time out of the game, but has re-emerged as a "rusty" 6.0. Oh, and he also suggest "no one taught Federer". Fed has one of the most text book, orthodox games I've ever seen. He's just awesome at it.
Please criticize my play, strokes, footwork....
- Thread starter HodeClassicMP
- Start date
Spot on. And he says "hit the ball before it bounces". Also known as a volley. And he seems to be reccomending the OP stand in "mid court". Also known as "no man's land" unless you're approaching or retrieving. He also claims to be a "child prodigy" in his first post on the forum, and says he has had a significant time out of the game, but has re-emerged as a "rusty" 6.0. Oh, and he also suggest "no one taught Federer". Fed has one of the most text book, orthodox games I've ever seen. He's just awesome at it.
What you said was not necessarily wrong. The way you said it was absolutely wrong. Your first point, to take the ball earlier is sound. Taking it earlier to set up a winner as the only means to an end is where you went awry.
Everyone has their main shots. Federer has his serve, forehand and backhand + slice. Nadal has his forehand and backhand. Murray has his serve, forehand and backhand. Djokovic has more backhand than forehand these days, but it's still a good groundie. These are top 4 players in the world, and only Federer consistently employs a slice, volleys, drop shots, chips, etc. Not all players play the same game. Tell me the last time you saw Nadal or Djokovic hit a neutral to offensive slice like Federer does?
No one plays in mid-court. Telling him to take the ball on the rise is fine. Playing in midcourt where deep balls land is just ridiculous. Not everyone is Davydenko. If he wants to be an offensive baseliner, then that's perfectly fine. Look at that Borg guy and that Agassi guy and that Nadal guy and that Djokovic guy. Not bad players there.
Variety is perfectly fine. I just played a set and won 6-2 because after him holding his first two service games, I realized he was timid at mid-court and further. So, I'd hit softer balls or low slices that landed about the service line which forced him to come to the net. Easy passing shots since he was not a competent volleyer. This is simply because I play an all-court game, but I would have lost to a better baseliner. Your ability to execute a shot depends on how you play the game. You do not need to have all shots mastered. In fact, no one aside from Federer does. It's how you employ what you can. Nadal has employed his simple top-spin defensive game to 11 grand slams and $50M in prize money. I'd say that's pretty good for someone who by your standards is predictable.
Not to be mean, of course.
Haha, yeah, that's it. You're just too deep and complex for us "inferior" people. As for the criticism comment- right back at ya my friend.
AnotherTennisProdigy
Professional
I said 95% because in general I disagreed with you, but in some points you were correct. Just tapping the ball over? No, that's called pushing and I addressed that in the post right before yours. But tennis is not all about making things happen, sometimes you need to give your opponent a chance to miss. BTW the way you worded it, I though you meant every SINGLE shot should be a set up shot for a winner.
Defensive players are trying to make their opponents miss, but not all the time. They give a chance to make their opponent miss, it's what separates aggressive players from defensive ones.
"Then learn to take the ball on the rise" This is part of the reason I didn't like your advice. Advice is generally split into two categories, strategy and stroke mechanics. If you're going to teach the strategy component of the advice, you have to make sure he has the strokes to use it effectively. If you're just going straight to the strategy, you have to adapt that to the skill set the player already owns.
You are right of course about Nadal, great point actually. Played with a monster today and he agrees with me that in todays game, aside from Fed, it's whoever is in better shape, no skills, just who can hit is the hardest and wait for errors. You are right, you can win that way, but BORING.
He's played many tournies and has become a baseliner, I was able to tie him in knots, we'll see, I hope that I don't have to be a baseliner, it's such a thrill actually using strategy, you know it's a mental rush.
Dude, what is the problem? I am starting to enjoy this forum and now I have you tracking me wherever I go? I can't believe how small people can be, are you jealous?
I'm a Christian, and I believe that EVERYTHING I have is a gift, so if a gift, where is there room to brag? Perhaps I came off bragging, but I told the truth so I could get some help on strings, and you guys go ballistic!
And no, I don't have your vocabulary, I don't "Talk a good game", geez.
Every forum has guys like you nit picking others to death, why not give it a break and put up something constructive?
I'm finding out I might be wrong in general. I played a guy today who lives tennis, I mean tourneys, plays all the time, strings for a living. IT WAS TOUGH! This guy was young and fast! I'm beat.
He told me that, although he agreed that he doesn't like the baseliner only game, that's the way it is. I asked him, "What about bringing the baseliner forward", he said "Only if you can do it near perfect each time", the reason he said is that the racquets are so powerful today that all-court players are going the way of the doe-doe. I was able to take him deep for example to his left then drop it on his right next to the net, but he was making some killer shots, one time I rushed the net and he just killed it down the line with his backhand, I didn't get near it!
I hope this game is not just baseliner, I did great with him, no problem, but I know there are real monsters out there who will devour me. He's the best player I've gone up against since being back, but very knowledgable. At least he agrees with me everyone should learn on a wood racquet! At this point I just don't want to steer my son wrong, I'm teaching him flat shots, cross court shots, and it seems to work, he beat a USTA tourny winner with 4 years on my son. This guy said "yea but the better bigger guys will get him".
So heres a question, is Tennis now strickly baseline? No more thinking? No more strategy? To me hitting it hard to the right then the left isn't stategy, it's a track meet.
No, it's not strictly just a baseline game. But you have to pick and choose more carefully then in the past. I learned on wood racquets. I can play serve and volley. I used to have very flat, powerful strokes. However in today's game those things just are not going to get it done against better players (at least not with my talent level). It's really hard to keep those flat strokes in, especially with lower balls. If you rip a waist high ball really well you're still likely to hurt your opponent. But lower balls get really hard to keep in and get decent pace (= weak ball for your opponent), and the consistency of the bounce hurts you too.
IMO the first thing you need is to learn the modern strokes with emphasis on topspin. That doesn't mean that you're hitting high bouncing, spinny balls. With all of the topspin you can rip the ball from anywhere in the court and keep them in. It's not the racquets, it's the technique. You also need to be able to vary the topspin for the situation and flatten your shots a bit when you want to be more aggressive on some balls.
The spin also makes the balls harder to hit. Balls bounce up different amounts, and to the side sometimes. You're not getting nice, consistent bounces anymore.
So the strokes that the OP was practicing were good. He's got to be able to do that before he can do other things.
Once you learn to hit like this from the baseline, then you can work on getting to the net. It's still a valid strategy, but you have to work harder in the modern game to make it work and your approach shots have to be better. It's going to be darn hard to just fly in from the baseline whenever the mood strikes you. You have to craft a point, get the weak ball, and hurt your opponent with the approach. Note that this doesn't mean that the approach shot is necessarily hitting it as hard as you can with topspin. Slice the ball, keeping it low, approaching with short, low balls are all things that can work too.
Serve and volley can work too. Look at Tsonga vs. Murray at Wimbledon this year. But again, against better players you're going to have to do more than spin something in and fly on in behind it (though that was always true even back in the day, just more so now).
AnotherTennisProdigy
Professional
Is tennis strictly baseline? I don't think so, but that style of play is what's taught to most juniors. It's the safest way to go if you want guaranteed success, so everybody does it and it becomes a trend. I call it the cookie cutter effect.
That doesn't mean all-court tennis is dead though, it's just not as popular since it takes such a high level of skill to use well. Just look at the pros, you've got guys like tsonga, fish, and others that use a complete all-court game.
Edit- the guy above me answered this better, just saw his post
tennisboi007
New User
Hi this is good advice above.
You're probably better than at least 70-80% of the people
giving you "advice" so take everything with grain of salt ...
I was afraid someone would say this. So far I have ignored everyone who says "The game has changed", but this really is about my 11 year old son, I don't want to teach him wrong. The guy I played today is a 5.5 baseliner and he was overall easy, but that doesn't mean much I suppose, I was at the baseline much of the time.
I have told my son, "See, these guys can't play, they just stand back, hit it as hard as they can and hope it goes in and their opponent makes a mistake", so I'm going to reevaluate everything. I will say this, Fed is something to strive for, not me but my son, I saw him EAT UP someone today on tape, Fed drives to where he knows the guy will barely get it over the net and Fed is there! I really noticed that, Fed went left deep, then left deep, then went right to where he knew Joke would barely get it, I mean he SET HIM UP, and Fed picked up his bad backhand at the net, very cool.
Mcenroe said "If you want to learn tennis from someone watch Federer, I've won three Wimbledons and I'd like to play like him".
See, that's what I was trying to say, I guess I don't convey myself well on this forum.
That's what I noticed and told my son, that the coaches get paid for results, much easier to get a 120 inch racquet and it "Looks" like a kid can play. Then I see other guys over the last 4 months, all standing back and killing it back and forth and think "That's not right, that's not how we used to do it".
So I started my son on a 75 inch wood racquet, I'll tell you this, it takes longer but the results come through, that racquet FORCES you to play good. I'm not bragging, OK I am, but my son beat a 11 year old baseliner, fully equiped with his Babalot, and the kid just won a tourny, my son beat him, I mean he's way too inconsistant, but it felt so awesome and I felt like I really was doing the right thing for him. Today the guy I played, and he lives tennis, he's a 5.5 player who strings and sells racquets for a living, he said "Yea, but when your son plays bigger stronger guys he'll lose with more of a all court play simply because the racquets are so much more powerful and the guys stronger".
I'm going to try to teach my son to play like Fed, he can do it all.
Thanks
You sure did, at least the couple posts I saw. Off the top of my head, you said you were a 6.0 who after 15 years off beat the top guy at the University of Washington and you compared your tennis gifts to those of Federer and Nadal. Your tips are inane and your claims are unlikely. It's cool you're teaching your son tennis, but you're also jacking threads and turning them into your blog, so welcome to my ignore list.
Quoted for absolute truth!!!
Jeez....the old woman down the street from me who's been divorced four times b!tches less than you do.
How about...guitarplayer...shiney baldy head...sun reflects off it too much and distracts opponents....eh...no...use a hat as courtesy to your opponents.
Here's a couple of things that you'll probably like to hear:
- The modern game does not required that you use a full Western grip. Full W grips give you a lot of spin but can be a bit more challenging to hit through the ball. On another thread you said your son was using an Eastern grip. That can work with a modern, fh swing path. I would encourage you however to be open to going a bit more Western than a full Eastern grip if you son wants to do that. The SW is great grip and allows for easy access to topspin and still allows you to flatten it out when you want.
- You can make a one handed bh work in today's game. Again on the grips, you need to go more Western than in years past. I wouldn't try to hit a one hander with a continental grip in today's game, but with a E. bh grip you can rip it pretty well. With a onehander your son's opponents will go after it like raw meat. He will have to hit a lot of backhands until he can show an opponent that it's not a weakness. He'll especially need to be able to deal with serve returns and hard, kicking ground strokes to his bh.
I'm a huge believer in net play and think there are many opportunities for it today. Being able to volley well, hit half volleys, and overheads will be a huge weapon because there are a lot of good junior players that can't hit those strokes very confidently. But there needs to be a solid baseline game to build on.
HodeClassicMP
Rookie
hmm... I thought this thread is dying since there was no more input, but... all the sudden, pouring in. Don't get me wrong, I like it!
It's been very interesting read, modern baseline game vs all court play. In my opinion, it is really NOT the racket driving this change, from more traditional style, S/V all court play to aggressive baseliner. It is the STRING makes this happening, to be exact, poly type string. This is a whole new discussion, of course we can discuss more(I am using a very old racket, POG Tour version, mid, with poly string).
Anyways, back on me... I will try to upload some match play video tonight, so that you guys can see better of me playing. I am open and welcome critiques, so please... bescause I want to get most of my potentials...
BTW, I hit the ball flat both forhand and backhand, but there are some topspin. Backhand is maybe less topspin, but there is absolute NO backspin.
It's been very interesting read, modern baseline game vs all court play. In my opinion, it is really NOT the racket driving this change, from more traditional style, S/V all court play to aggressive baseliner. It is the STRING makes this happening, to be exact, poly type string. This is a whole new discussion, of course we can discuss more(I am using a very old racket, POG Tour version, mid, with poly string).
Anyways, back on me... I will try to upload some match play video tonight, so that you guys can see better of me playing. I am open and welcome critiques, so please... bescause I want to get most of my potentials...
BTW, I hit the ball flat both forhand and backhand, but there are some topspin. Backhand is maybe less topspin, but there is absolute NO backspin.
^ From your original video, the main thing that I see is that you come across as quite very heavy legged ie you're not really on your feet, don't really want to move, you wait for the ball to come to you etc, rather than getting yourself in the best position to hit the ball using small steps. This is not meant as an insult, but I just wonder whether you're carrying a bit more body weight than you need to because that can lead to slugglishness in movement and footwork.
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HodeClassicMP
Rookie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0LvODtsnUs&feature=youtu.be
As promised, here is my match play, only 2 games tho. 1 serving and 1 recieving... I cut off some walking and picking up balls in between.
This's the same day I recorded as last video. I won first 5 games, and then he came back to 5-4. And I finally won 6-4.
Please don't hasitate to advice me where I can get improved... Thanks guys!
As promised, here is my match play, only 2 games tho. 1 serving and 1 recieving... I cut off some walking and picking up balls in between.
This's the same day I recorded as last video. I won first 5 games, and then he came back to 5-4. And I finally won 6-4.
Please don't hasitate to advice me where I can get improved... Thanks guys!
AnotherTennisProdigy
Professional
The biggest thing I can talk about is the serve, so let me start with that.
First I noticed that you jump on your serve. Just to clear a misconception you might have, when players hop on their serve it isn't to get extra height. The hop is a result of releasing the energy from the legs (which are bent) into the serve. I'm not telling you to change it since I've seen people do it with success http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?v=CQYOW1DlydU but I'm just letting you know so you're aware.
Although I do have something you should work on. Do you have a loose grip when you serve? If the answer is yes, then ignore this paragraph. If you don't, try serving with a loose grip and relax your swing. It's impossible to build racket head speed if your gripping too tightly because it will make your arm tense. You build up racket head speed through a loose, relaxed motion.
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?v=vcjZ5r_YHV0
Above is a video of federer's serve. If you pause at 15 secs, you'll notice the tip of his racket is faced directly downward. If you pause at about the same moment in your video (not 15 seconds, I mean at the same point in the serve) your tip is faced at the fence. This is why I was led to the conclusion that you muscle the ball a little in your serve.
Also, you should rotate your shoulder more if you want more power. The power in your serve come from the build up of tension in the take back. I think you have trouble with the rotation partly because of the jump I mentioned earlier.
The only other thing I want to add is that I noticed the rallies didn't last more than about 4-5 shots. By adding more margin for error, you can more easily keep rally going.
First I noticed that you jump on your serve. Just to clear a misconception you might have, when players hop on their serve it isn't to get extra height. The hop is a result of releasing the energy from the legs (which are bent) into the serve. I'm not telling you to change it since I've seen people do it with success http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?v=CQYOW1DlydU but I'm just letting you know so you're aware.
Although I do have something you should work on. Do you have a loose grip when you serve? If the answer is yes, then ignore this paragraph. If you don't, try serving with a loose grip and relax your swing. It's impossible to build racket head speed if your gripping too tightly because it will make your arm tense. You build up racket head speed through a loose, relaxed motion.
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?v=vcjZ5r_YHV0
Above is a video of federer's serve. If you pause at 15 secs, you'll notice the tip of his racket is faced directly downward. If you pause at about the same moment in your video (not 15 seconds, I mean at the same point in the serve) your tip is faced at the fence. This is why I was led to the conclusion that you muscle the ball a little in your serve.
Also, you should rotate your shoulder more if you want more power. The power in your serve come from the build up of tension in the take back. I think you have trouble with the rotation partly because of the jump I mentioned earlier.
The only other thing I want to add is that I noticed the rallies didn't last more than about 4-5 shots. By adding more margin for error, you can more easily keep rally going.
Can only say a few things about your game. You look a little wobbly when you take a couple steps to your right for a forehand. Perhaps more knee bend would work better. Especially on your forehand, but on both sides actually. Look up a Tipsarevic or Murray video to see how he gets down into his two-hander.
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tennisplayer1993
Professional
i think your strokes are ok. your forehand doesn't seem to get a lot of spin on it. but i guess its preference to hit it flat. the backhand however, i felt was your weakest shot, when you approached the net a few times, I noticed you had a weak backhand shot that was used as your approach shot. if I were you, I would focus on putting more spin on your balls instead of pace. but it's all up to you, this is just my two cents.
-5.0 NTRP
-5.0 NTRP
HodeClassicMP
Rookie
1. You are correct about my grip, I do have tight grip when serving. That is good to know, and I gonna do some experiment tonight.
2. I will observate my hop and shoulder rotate, and make some adjustment.
Thank alot!
HodeClassicMP
Rookie
Before I used to hit my backhand with lot of flipping of left wrist, so my shots were more spinny. But maybe 5 years ago, my left wrist started to cause me big pain, I mean severe pain, I could not even play, at all. Once the pain went away, hmmmm.... maybe 3 month, I started to play again, and chenged stroke mechanism. Which is more flat, like now. I do agree I need to add more spin to my backhand side... I just have not found a perfect solution to balance, not getting hurt. Thanks man!
AnotherTennisProdigy
Professional
If you want to work on getting the wrist back without hurting it, this is something you should know(what I'm about to say is similar to what I said about the serve). The wrist action shouldn't be something that you do on purpose, rather it's the result of having a loose grip and relaxed swing (I know it sounds repetitive, but it's because I think you have the same problem as you do on the serve). The major thing I see with you're stroke is that it's tense, hence all of the "robotic" adjective that everybody's describing your forehand as. Try loosening your grip and relaxing your arm with the same motion, and see how it goes. Once you get rid of the tenseness, we can better help improve you're strokes.
As for your backhand, I won't criticize it because any advice I give you wouldn't be from personal experience since I use a one handed backhand (I haven't used a two handed backhand since I was 5). Any advice I have would be from my general knowledge of tennis.
It looks like you foot faulted on every one of your serves. You realise that your feet cannot be on the lines?
tennisplayer1993
Professional
I understand what you mean. I used to go go for power forehands but it used to give me pain near my elbow. I just go for a consistent spinny forehand now. In my opinion, whatever provides consistency for you game is the best option.
HodeClassicMP
Rookie
I did make some progress in hop and shoulder rotate, they seem related. The good news is that my serve seems more consistent and with good pace, both 1st(flat) and 2nd serve(spinny).
But then, this losen up grip thing... for some reason, I just can not do it. It makes perfect sense, and I totally understand the idea, but yet... it is so hard to do. I would rank my grip tenseness as, server > backhand(both hands)>forhand, I will keep working on it. Thanks alot man!
HodeClassicMP
Rookie
That is just camera angel... I am pretty sure I do NOT step on any lines during the whole serving motion.
HodeClassicMP
Rookie
I am working on the issue, but man... it is harder than it sounds. Specially for serving, I just can not relax my hand, keep holding it too tight. Thank you!
TomT
Hall of Fame
Yeah, I agree, everything's got to be loose. But more importantly, for me, I know you can do a behind the baseline view with the videos. At least, try to do this. Be inventive if you have to. It will make the videos more enjoyable.
I agree. It's very difficult to say for sure, but it looks like your wrist does not stay in in the same laid back position through contact. Looks like you straighten the wrist just before contact. If you'd hit more out in front you could keep the wrist laid back all the time through contact. You would get time to drop your racket more before contact this way.
Good luck.
I always have used continental on my forehand, was torn between a sort of, switch the grip to eastern mid point and try one-handed backhand, or a two hander. Trouble with the two hander is I had a broken wrist that healed my left wrist twisted round clockwise a good few degrees(facing out)-which, I suppose could give you more topspin in one sense, but maybe it just isn't compatible with the right hand. Usually I just ended up using a lot of backhand slice which you can execute so well with continental grip.
