Please critique my strokes *VID*

[Quikj]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKjhiphE9o8

I helped win a couple of D1 CIF Championships in high school, but I've since briefly retired and returned to the game. I used to hit a much more severely western forehand, but I'm physically much stronger now and want to hit a more penetrating ball. Give me any feedback you can based off of a glimpse of my game. I know that I can clean up my footwork; we all get lazy at some point. Except Oudin, I believe that girl gives 100%.

 

[Ken Honecker]

I'm not qualified to say much but you do seem to be hitting an awful lot of balls off your back foot.

 

[LeeD]

You are only playing defensive tennis. Leaning back and moving back is not the way to play winning tennis, it's the way to play not to lose.
All those high feeds, stand your ground, turn sideways, and SWING THRU the sitter for a forcing shot or winner.
Your backhand is better.
But you have a nice, smooth, thos SHORT forehand stroke, and to develop power and penetration, would need to flatten it out for consistently deeper balls while clearing the net with LESS distance. At any level above 4.0, your high balls are just sitters waiting to be crushed.

 

[Quikj]

Thanks guys I appreciate the feedback. I can see that I definitely do need to move my body weight through the ball. I used to flatten out high balls much better before the grip change. I'm still struggling to adjust the change in the angle of the racket face, so it's been tough to flatten anything out.

 

[Grizvok]

Thanks guys I appreciate the feedback. I can see that I definitely do need to move my body weight through the ball. I used to flatten out high balls much better before the grip change. I'm still struggling to adjust the change in the angle of the racket face, so it's been tough to flatten anything out.

That's what doesn't make sense to me. If you are physically stronger, than MORE of your strength should be used to develop more spin which results in more margin and a very tough to handle ball that kicks up and explodes off of the court.

You mentioned being physically stronger and for some reason made the assumption that moving to a more conservative grip (eastern) was the obvious thing to do when in fact the opposite is actually true since you are able to develop much more racquet head speed than you used to be able to, however; I'm not really noticing significant racquet head speed in your videos. Are you afraid of accelerating too quickly with the Eastern grip and not imparting enough topspin? Try a semi-western and see what you think. You should be able to hopefully up your racquet head speed by a good amount creating more court penetration and margin as well as a ball that is tough to handle and "heavy."

I've never given this advice before since I play with a very conservative grip myself (extreme eastern), but the "logical progression" after you've gained strength and the ability to really get some racquet head speed is to progress to something more western and NOT the opposite. I'm surprised LeeD didn't mention this since he is usually a proponent of having strong players venture more western.

 

[LeeD]

I suspect it's not always the grip that determines the spin and speed of your groundstrokes. I've seen plenty of women juniors with full W grip totally flatten out high balls (around shoulder heights) and hit it 100+ mph flat with a POP like a first flat serve. Only works against slow moving incoming sitters, of course, not as an everystroke shot. Just do a palm up karate chop!
Watching some tennis on TV, I think spin is way overrated, except maybe to get you up to 5+ levels. Watch the pros like Soderling, and even Davs, who can flatten out slower incoming balls when they want to, to hit the ball faster with less topspin. Some topspin for sure, but more speed equals less spin. Spin doesn't bother anybody unless you can back it up with great retrieves over and over again.

 

[kashgotmoney]

I noticed that you tend to lean back and hit off your back foot. Also, you get to where the ball will go and stop moving your feet. You need to be constently moving your feet and making small adjustments. You also don't bend your knees as much as I would like to see.

Goodluck

 

[Quikj]

My grip is semi-western. My index knuckle rests in the middle of the fourth bevel. I used to effectively "straddle" the ridge between the fourth and fifth bevel.

From the angle of the video, you can't see the resulting ball, but spin and margin over the net isn't my issue. My forehands usually clear the net by a couple of feet. With my newer grip, I find that I'm more comfortable changing the direction of the ball. which allows me to construct points more effectively, but I lack the knockout punch to finish.

I'm not accelerating quite as quickly because I'm not all that comfortable with the different angle of the racket face yet. When I want to bother my opponent with a particularly "heavy" ball I use my reverse forehand. It's a more natural shot for me, so it's been easier to adapt to the change. The biggest issue for me has been the change in my swing path, making it hard for me to trust the stroke, when letting it fly.

When it comes to athleticism or retrieving skills, i was a half-back with 4.6 speed. There are few players that defend better than I do, and there haven't been a pair of court shoes made that last more than a couple of months on my feet. Monfils wasn't the first to slide on hard courts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b43HDEFG30k

 

[35ft6]

Your backhand is nice. Very compact and simple, no wasted motion. Your forehand looks a bit like Gasquet and Kafelnikov with that V shaped take back.

Do you really like you're new grip? The forehand looks okay but it seems like you're really thinking your way through the motion, it seems tentative. When I went from eastern to semi-western, it was an immediate improvement. Changes like that, that almost instantly makes a stroke feel more natural and more effective, those are good changes. But I sort of cringe a bit when people make their strokes less natural and effective but insist that with practice, it will be much better someday. Someday.

 

[fruitytennis1]

I swear ive seen you post a vid before. As people who are saying step up and hit through the ball.

 

[ttbrowne]

I agree about hitting off the backfoot.
If you'll just freeze your vid at the point where you feed the ball at :48, you'll see that this is the way you hit your forehand. Backward tilt.

 

[5263]

Thanks guys I appreciate the feedback. I can see that I definitely do need to move my body weight through the ball. I used to flatten out high balls much better before the grip change. I'm still struggling to adjust the change in the angle of the racket face, so it's been tough to flatten anything out.

I don't agree, as you are doing a ton of things right very naturally here in the vid. You strokes appear very modern to me and very in line with the MTM way of hitting, especially for someone just getting back into it. Many talented american's have had their game ruined by all that flatten out more and step in stronger advice. Not saying you can't ever step in or flatten out, but your vid is of your rally shot and that is how points are built. Most of the reason that all that flatten out advice works at all, is they are playing another guy making the same mistakes, so it does not show up so much. It why we always hear so many cry about losing to a worse player. Often that worse player is MUCH better, but not recognized by this flatten out crowd. It is also why we see guys like Nadal and Borg come in and dominate the stage like no other.

I love the way you are well balanced and accelerate smoothly, but aggressively across the ball to an excellent follow thru!
:51 frame show that you can step in and flatten at the right time.

 

[smoothtennis]

Thanks guys I appreciate the feedback. I can see that I definitely do need to move my body weight through the ball. I used to flatten out high balls much better before the grip change. I'm still struggling to adjust the change in the angle of the racket face, so it's been tough to flatten anything out.

I guess others may have said this, but my very first impression is that you are first and foremost, setting up to hit your forehand while already leaning back. Your weight is up and back before you ever hit. I would start there for getting your weight through the ball. Notice, if you set up at least balanced evenly, with no lean backwards, you should naturally rotate your core and stroke into the ball much easier.

Currently, you are also rotating away from the ball - rather than through it. I would concentrate more on your foundational balance, rather than messing with your stroke too much. Your stroke is nice, but's it is only as good as your foundation underneath.

 

[smoothtennis]

BTW - I agree with 5263 in his last post. Your strokes and grips look fine to me, and are more modern - I'm not familiar completely with MTM - but it is the modern stroke Rick Macci, John Yandell, and others have taught for years. With teachestennnis and 5263 posting here now, I see the Wegner way to hit is basically the what I would call the same. It's how I hit as well - I just didn't learn it from MTM directly.

Like I said, I would start with your balance, and not start changing grips and strokes yet.

One other note - guys, even pro's who hit with SW, and Western grips tend to get away with being able to hit off the back foot, and leaning back a bit due to more tolerance in the strike zone. But it isn't optimal.

Edit - 5263 - While I believe the OP has good dynamic balance, I think his forehand setup could utilize a better evenly balanced position before initiating the stroke forward.

 

[5263]

BTW - I agree with 5263 in his last post. Your strokes and grips look fine to me, and are more modern - I'm not familiar completely with MTM - but it is the modern stroke Rick Macci, John Yandell, and others have taught for years. With teachestennnis and 5263 posting here now, I see the Wegner way to hit is basically the what I would call the same. It's how I hit as well - I just didn't learn it from MTM directly.

Like I said, I would start with your balance, and not start changing grips and strokes yet.

Edit - 5263 - While I believe the OP has good dynamic balance, I think his forehand setup could utilize a better evenly balanced position before initiating the stroke forward.

Yes, and I could agree that his balance could improve. I meant more that it wasn't bad. He mentioned as much in a way as he spoke of being a little lazy with the feet at times. But I thought he looked super for someone just getting back into it. I would hate to see him get away from that excellent acceleration up and across the ball. If he starts trying to flatten it out too much and get early racket speed, he will lose the up and across, as well as the excellent acceleration he currently exhibits. He appears too humble to argue in favor of how what he is doing is more correct.

MTM is Modern Tennis Method, developed by Oscar. It describes the way almost all of the pro strokes are executed. MTM is clearly not the only way to learn it as many players do it naturally till they get coached out of it, and many coaches are experts at teaching parts of it;
but what is quite special about MTM is the completeness of the system and lack of false data.

 

[smoothtennis]

I would hate to see him get away from that excellent acceleration up and across the ball. If he starts trying to flatten it out too much and get early racket speed, he will lose the up and across, as well as the excellent acceleration he currently exhibits. He appears too humble to argue in favor of how what he is doing is more correct.

I too hope he doesnt' mess with that swing - it's a very nice swing path and grip. I don't think a person really loses their swing technique even after long breaks.

One thing he could do to setup balanced more upright vs. balanced up and back, is NOT to take his left arm as far back with the racket. I had this very problem and it causes balance issues. As the racket is taken back even with the shoulder, that left arm should release, and go ahead and extend OUT to the side vs. going back further which causes the whole body to balance too far back. Unfortunately, this is not easy to fix, even though easy to diagnose.

MTM is Modern Tennis Method, developed by Oscar. It describes the way almost all of the pro strokes are executed. MTM is clearly not the only way to learn it as many players do it naturally till they get coached out of it, and many coaches are experts at teaching parts of it;
but what is quite special about MTM is the completeness of the system and lack of false data.

Yeah - I have recently seen some of this due to you guys on the forum. I have to admit, I have been working on this via this forum, John Yandell, and through personal analysis of pro strokes in slow mo. ie, I changed from classic to modern forehand with great results, and VERY MUCH easier timing in hitting shots, especially hard or heavy shots coming at me.

What feels odd, is that although I and other will give Oscar his dues, it seems like he may feel bitter than his information was not originally well recieved. And that's a bummer ok? I wish I would have heard it many years ago! But there is so much information about the modern forehand now that it just seems a quite strained to hear MTM touted as the greatest method. That's my personal take, and I take not one iota away from Oscar or his method. The way it is presented just seems as I said....'strained'.

However, with that said - using basically the same ideas, I am one of those guys who did make a transition, and have been competely blown away with new technique regarding the forehand. I saw some of teachingtennis' vids, and that is how I hit now. Same good stuff.

PS. Have you noticed with the SW and Western grips, and open stance, and big topspin, a tendency among many students to get away with hitting late or off the back foot? Even Andy Murray does this more than I like.

 

[5263]

............................

 

[5263]

What feels odd, is that although I and other will give Oscar his dues, it seems like he may feel bitter than his information was not originally well recieved. And that's a bummer ok? I wish I would have heard it many years ago! But there is so much information about the modern forehand now that it just seems a quite strained to hear MTM touted as the greatest method. That's my personal take, and I take not one iota away from Oscar or his method. The way it is presented just seems as I said....'strained'.

I can't speak for Oscar or you, but if I had been working on this getting understood for close to 30 yrs, I might get a little strained as well. Not to mention the many coaches now scrambling to take credit for things published in his book back in the 80's. And behind the scenes there is always dirty politics that some orgs are quite known for....

I actually think Oscar has been extremely graceful under the circumstances.

 

[smoothtennis]

I can't speak for Oscar or you, but if I had been working on this getting understood for close to 30 yrs, I might get a little strained as well. Not to mention the many coaches now scrambling to take credit for things published in his book back in the 80's. And behind the scenes there is always dirty politics that some orgs are quite known for....

I actually think Oscar has been extremely graceful under the circumstances.

True. I have reasonable empathy. It's sad the way things work out sometimes.

But I guess the good news is that the use of high speed film and analysis has forced the issue - not much debate now as to who uses the double bend, and WW finishes right? I have been not too happy with the tennis instruction I learned from as well in the past. I just hope things standardize much more in the next 10 years as opposed to what we have seen in the past. And I mean standardize across the board.

I have met more than one teaching pros in the past year, who have no clue what I am talking about when I say double bend, WW finish, etc. They are like, "don't copy the pro's, that's too advanced it will mess up your game." Yeah ok.

 

[Quikj]

Thank you all for your input. Thanks to both some objective constructive criticism and a few kind reassuring words, I have a direction to head in. I'm going to work on setting up in a more balanced position, so that I have more of a solid consistent base from which to hit from. I don't think I'll change my swing very much, as that could just lead to more frustration and greater consistency.

For those of you who want to see me hit through the ball a bit more, would it be wise to practice hitting more out of a closed stance? I think that transferring my weight through the ball might be easier to get accustomed to via a closed foundation.

A deeper knee bend is on my list as well.

 

[smoothtennis]

Thank you all for your input. Thanks to both some objective constructive criticism and a few kind reassuring words, I have a direction to head in. I'm going to work on setting up in a more balanced position, so that I have more of a solid consistent base from which to hit from. I don't think I'll change my swing very much, as that could just lead to more frustration and greater consistency.

For those of you who want to see me hit through the ball a bit more, would it be wise to practice hitting more out of a closed stance? I think that transferring my weight through the ball might be easier to get accustomed to via a closed foundation.

A deeper knee bend is on my list as well.

How about trying a three quarter stance, also referred to as semi-open? Pro's hit from this stance a lot when they have plenty of time to set up. If you are still having any trouble setting up in that balanced position you may want to experiment with using your non-dominant arm to point out toward the ball, which will certainly keep you from leaning back.

 

[5263]

Thank you all for your input. Thanks to both some objective constructive criticism and a few kind reassuring words, I have a direction to head in. I'm going to work on setting up in a more balanced position, so that I have more of a solid consistent base from which to hit from. I don't think I'll change my swing very much, as that could just lead to more frustration and greater consistency.

For those of you who want to see me hit through the ball a bit more, would it be wise to practice hitting more out of a closed stance? I think that transferring my weight through the ball might be easier to get accustomed to via a closed foundation.

A deeper knee bend is on my list as well.

just realize that trying to hit more thru the ball is going to affect one of the best parts of your current swing, which is the way you accelerate "up and across" the ball. Your current shot has a lot more pace than people realize, as vids tend to make the ball look much slower on the whole. Often 5.0-6.0 players will get rated as 3.5s by people on this forum, due to the effect of vid and how it looks with their ball speed.

 

[Quikj]

I meant "greater inconsistency" btw, but I'm sure you guys understood. Hitting out of a semi-open stance sounds like a good idea. I'm a bit nervous to point towards the ball though, as I've had problems with an incomplete shoulder turn on my back swing. I feel as if it might be prudent to focus on distributing my weight more evenly during the "sit" position, before I "lift" up and across.

Whatever the case, you've made it clear that I need to be on balance from the very beginning of my stroke preparation.

 

[smoothtennis]

I meant "greater inconsistency" btw, but I'm sure you guys understood. Hitting out of a semi-open stance sounds like a good idea. I'm a bit nervous to point towards the ball though, as I've had problems with an incomplete shoulder turn on my back swing. I feel as if it might be prudent to focus on distributing my weight more evenly during the "sit" position, before I "lift" up and across.

Whatever the case, you've made it clear that I need to be on balance from the very beginning of my stroke preparation.

No problem - just a suggestion. Hey - I did a vid, and I was doing the exact same thing - so I see it now in some players. I had a hard time breaking that habit even though it seems very easy. A lot of shadow swinging helped out off the court.

As 5263 says, your swing is fine for the most part. Just by hitting from a more forward balanced position (forward compared to what you were doing), you will by default be hitting more thorugh the ball without really changing your swing. Good luck - let us know how things go.