Please rate & critique this serve

[maverick1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk3xJzXZFw4

 

[xtremerunnerars]

i play against a lot of 4.0's, and this seems slightly better or at the top of the ones i play with.

 

[Deleted member 6835]

i dont know about rating, but i would guess about a high 3.5, or a low 4.0.

but does anyone know what the speed of those serves are? like just a ballpark guess...

 

[looseswing]

I would say 4.0+

 

[300Gkid]

maybe a low 4.0?

 

[skuludo]

Buy a radar gun. Should cost the same price as your pure drive.

Maybe 70MPH range?

(When ball reaches the net)

 

[maverick1]

Buy a radar gun. Should cost the same price as your pure drive.

Maybe 70MPH range?

(When ball reaches the net)

I(the OP) didn't ask for a speed estimate. It was someone else. I do have a pretty accurate estimate of the the speed. I am waiting for some unbiased opinions before I say what it is.

Also, suggestions please on How this serve can be improved.

 

[Deleted member 6835]

Buy a radar gun. Should cost the same price as your pure drive.

Maybe 70MPH range?

(When ball reaches the net)

I(the OP) didn't ask for a speed estimate. It was someone else. I do have a pretty accurate estimate of the the speed. I am waiting for some unbiased opinions before I say what it is.

Also, suggestions please on How this serve can be improved.

sorry it was me who asked about the speed...

 

[theartoftennis]

I'd have to say a strong 3.5.

Loosen the arm a bit, and whip through it more. It looks a little stiff in the beginning of the motion. Try tossing into the court a little more, maybe a little more to the right. Nice knee bend, try to add more explosion in it.


I'd have to say around 65-75MPH. A few adjustments and you could maybe hit a High 80, to low 90.

 

[musicc]

sounds pretty clean.

 

[VGP]

Looks to me that perhaps that guy plays volleyball as well.

 

[zhan]

thats 4.0?
i see...
service motion very simple.. not much aesthestics...
like gonzo's serve...

 

[boojay]

a lot better than my serve right now, that's for sure

 

[jackson vile]

What A-holes put 3.0?

 

[J-man]

3.5 to low 4.0. But whatever. As long as the serve works for you that's what's important

 

[chrisdaniel]

...

not bad at all....looks like your serving some solid second serves right ?

your pushing off the ground pretty good I know cause you get off the ground pretty good... to improve,just keep on doing it,but slowly get more explosive.all though dont get over explosive..thats why I say slowly..this could mean alot of things...weight training,legs,abdominal,deltoids.you get the idea..i would say 4.0...looked pretty consistent too..just never believe that its perfect,always look to improve,but gradually..that way little silly habits dont show up...

 

[esrb]

with a better toss, perhaps could look nicer, but the serve is pretty heavy and smooth.

 

[maverick1]

not bad at all....looks like your serving some solid second serves right ?

No, first serves.
These are 16 serves out of a basket of about 80. Not necessarily the best 16, but all the bad ones are edited out.

 

[maverick1]

Thanks for the feedback so far. I could use more suggestions for improvement.
To answer some questions...

tennis_nerd22: The speeds are between high 70s and high 80s, mph.

theartoftennis: I noticed the stiff arm as well, even when just walking. It reminded me of my brother; it must be the genes But as you say, it is in the beginning of the motion. Is it really affecting the serve? I thought I was doing a good job of tossing into the court. I am hitting them about a foot inside the court. I tried tossing more in front, but I was leaning and reaching for the ball, getting out of balance and making contact a bit low. I think I would need more elevation off my feet to pull off a deeper toss, but i could be wrong.

VGP: No volleyball in nearly 22 years. I did play almost every day for a year though.

Zhan: "simple... no aesthetics" is one of the best compliments I can receive, even if you intended that as a neutral/negative comment. That is the way I want to be in everything I do.

boojay: You are being modest. Perhaps, like chrisdaniel, you thought those were 16 consecutive serves. Is everyone going to want to lower their rating now?

esrb: How should the toss be different to be better?

 

[Voltron]

Thanks for the feedback so far. I could use more suggestions for improvement.
To answer some questions...

tennis_nerd22: The speeds are between high 70s and high 80s, mph.

theartoftennis: I noticed the stiff arm as well, even when just walking. It reminded me of my brother; it must be the genes But as you say, it is in the beginning of the motion. Is it really affecting the serve? I thought I was doing a good job of tossing into the court. I am hitting them about a foot inside the court. I tried tossing more in front, but I was leaning and reaching for the ball, getting out of balance and making contact a bit low. I think I would need more elevation off my feet to pull off a deeper toss, but i could be wrong.

VGP: No volleyball in nearly 22 years. I did play almost every day for a year though.

Zhan: "simple... no aesthetics" is one of the best compliments I can receive, even if you intended that as a neutral/negative comment. That is the way I want to be in everything I do.

boojay: You are being modest. Perhaps, like chrisdaniel, you thought those were 16 consecutive serves. Is everyone going to want to lower their rating now?

esrb: How should the toss be different to be better?

Well, one thing is that your arm(the one holding the raquet to be specific) should go up with your tossing arm. One way to improve this is to begin your toss higher. But definatly, the arm should go up with the toss. If you study trophies you will see one arm raised and one lowered, thus the term "trophy look". What you have is a trophy look, but at least it's really easy to fix(I fixed my own, so I know it's easy) thru simple practise, just get a friend(or coach) to tell you if your arm goes up with the toss. Then just focus on it. I hope this helps your serve.

Best regards,
Voltron

 

[grizzly4life]

i agree with most people..

in between 3.5 and 4.0 (and the way you're supposed to be rated)...

looks pretty consistent, and i think it's alot faster than 70 MPH, especially if that earlier guy's 107 on the radar gun was corrrect.

 

[rfprse]

Looks to me that perhaps that guy plays volleyball as well.

That's what I thought too.

 

[theartoftennis]

Well, with a looser arm, you can get the racquet head farther down, giving much more time for the racquet-head to accelerate before it comes to contact with the ball.

About the toss, it's a bit hard to see from that angle. I just came to conclusion that you weren't exploding into the court that aggressively. Tossing farther into the court forces you to adjust your body right onto the baseline, and explode into the court to get the ball.

 

[onehandbh]

Hard to guess how hard the serves are but probably under 85
since they don't hit the back fence on the first bounce. Most
good 4.5 and up first serves will hit the back fence at least
a few feet up on the first bounce.

 

[skuludo]

The earlier guy who hit 107 is really hard to get. Also drakuile appears to be able to hit that speed consistently too. I can't wait to see his serve after his body recovers.

I bought the exact same radar gun and tried it out myself. Best I got with a Babolat Pure Drive + was 99mph using new balls.
My 101 record can not be confirmed, so I am discarding it.

Serve is probly in 80s. Mine didn't hit the back fence and scored 86, but some of my 83s did hit the backfence. Hitting the backfence doesn't really mean a thing.

The OP's serve is ok. It is sufficient for 4.0 level play; however, it looks like a person can take a full swing at that serve making it really vulnerable at higher levels. A 4.0 player should be able to take a full cut at it if they are confident enough.

My obersavtion on of the video:
Looks like you should let the ball drop more or toss it lower. When you hit the ball, the effort you used up doesn't seem to transfer to the ball really well. (Very slight misthit. The serve at 25 seconds sounds like a mishit.)

After giving it some more thought it could be that the balls you used were old. Kind of hard to tell what you get out of your current serve if my assumption is the case. Opening a new can of balls for serving would give the most accurate info on what your serve can really do.

 

[Deleted member 6835]

Hard to guess how hard the serves are but probably under 85
since they don't hit the back fence on the first bounce. Most
good 4.5 and up first serves will hit the back fence at least
a few feet up on the first bounce.

i dont know about that... i mean what if your short? if after the 1st bounce its a few feet up on the fence, you'd have to be tall enough to hit down at such an angle. if your someone like my height, 5'4", then you cant do flat serves that well either so you have to do either kick or slice, and i do slice most of the time. and that will make the second bounce right at the fence, not that high up the fence, so the best way is to get it radared. however i can hit the fence after the 1st bounce on a slice serve, but only a few inches up the fence.

 

[shindemac]

I think you're adding topspin to the serve, so I thought they were second serves too. That, and the pace wasn't too fast. Editing your video would lower the rating. A 4.0-4.5 could get that kind of topspin serve in 80-90% of the time, so no editing would be required. Some 4.0s can start banging in their first serve everytime so it hits the fence on one bounce. That would prob require serving it at 90+. Although some 4.0s can also have weaker serves, so it's hard to say whether it's 3.5 or 4.0.

We would have to see your "bad serves" to zero in on your true serve rating. Think of it this way. You can hit the perfect forehand maybe 1 out of 100 balls with lots of power and good placement. Well, a pro could do it at least 90 out of 100 times. So you hit over 1000 balls and edit the tape so you get 10 good ones out of it. Well, that doesn't mean as much then.

Your arm looks very stiff and mechanical during the takeback. Does it matter? Yes, of course otherwise we wouldn't be mentioning it. Your motion should be fluid and smooth so you can build up energy and power. That hitch in your serve looks unnatural and it looks like you aren't comfortable with your serve yet. If you keep practicing, you will develop rhythm and timing that will get you a more consistent and powerful serve.

 

[maverick1]

I think you're adding topspin to the serve, so I thought they were second serves too. That, and the pace wasn't too fast. Editing your video would lower the rating.

I agree you would have to see the bad serves as well to RATE a serve. The unedited serves probably went in just under 50%. They probbaly would have been just over 50% if I wasn't self-conscious. That is my normal percentage.
Actually I mainly wanted a critque; for that purpose, I think it is best to show he good serves.

I don't need to know the serve's rating. I half played enough players in the 3.0 to 4.0 range to that this serve is a firm 3.5, even though there are 3.0s who serve better and 4.0s who serve worse. I set up a rating poll primarily so that some people who are unfamiliar with NTRP ratings can develop a feel for them by comparing the video with the poll results.

I agree with the poll results, but some of the votes were based on the assumption that these were a continuous sequence of serves; If I had posted all the serves unedited, the ratings would probably have been lower, and that is par for this forum. People who have seen tapes of themselves know how much worse they look on video than they imagined themselves. You can expect those people vote accurately. The rest tend to under-rate. An average 3.5 who has never seen himself on video will look at this and go "I can easily do better than that", and votes 3.0 or lower.

A 4.0-4.5 could get that kind of topspin serve in 80-90% of the time, so no editing would be required. Some 4.0s can start banging in their first serve everytime so it hits the fence on one bounce. That would prob require serving it at 90+. Although some 4.0s can also have weaker serves, so it's hard to say whether it's 3.5 or 4.0.

I think everything you say here is exactly on the money.

The spin may have something to do with using a 2 day old pure drive after having mostly used PS85 for the previous year. I am not used to it yet. It feels completely different. There is more spin, and I can hardly feel hitting the ball. It is like going from a sports car to a cadillac. It feels like all teh controls are power asssisted.

We would have to see your "bad serves" to zero in on your true serve rating. Think of it this way. You can hit the perfect forehand maybe 1 out of 100 balls with lots of power and good placement. Well, a pro could do it at least 90 out of 100 times. So you hit over 1000 balls and edit the tape so you get 10 good ones out of it. Well, that doesn't mean as much then.

Fair enough, as I said above. Rating is all about results, but to get a good look at my form, I think think the posted video is enough.

Your arm looks very stiff and mechanical during the takeback. Does it matter? Yes, of course otherwise we wouldn't be mentioning it. Your motion should be fluid and smooth so you can build up energy and power. That hitch in your serve looks unnatural and it looks like you aren't comfortable with your serve yet.

I thought the motion was loose enough after the very beginning of takeback. I see that I don't have a lot of flexibility in the arm and the back and that keeps my takeback relatively shallow. This would have been my explanation for why I can't serve faster. But I didn't see it as being mechanical/robotic.

What do you mean by a hitch? To me a hitch is a sudden jerk or a stop-n-start motion. I didn't notice it and no one else has mentioned a hitch.

 

[zhan]

Zhan: "simple... no aesthetics" is one of the best compliments I can receive, even if you intended that as a neutral/negative comment. That is the way I want to be in everything I do.

i meant no harm lol
i was just referring to another pro that has the simple motion...

 

[drakulie]

Mav, here are my thoughts,

1. Excellent motion. Very simple, so you probably do not get problems with "hitches" in your serve.
2. Your toss is ok, the problem with your tossing arm is after the toss. You leave it up, rather than tucking it in. You need to tuck it in so you could produce a "counter-weight" effect when your racquet arm goes up after the ball. This is probably resutling in a decrease in the serve speed.
3. Most of the "racquet head speed", is after contact, rather than immediately before impact. This is waisted energy. Work on getting all that energy into the ball. Your serve speed will show an immediate improvement in MPH.

Good stuff. Thanks for sharing the vids with us, and good luck.

 

[shindemac]

The hitch is during your takeback. You bring it down, pause, then up.

 

[maverick1]

The hitch is during your takeback. You bring it down, pause, then up.

Ah! I think you have a point there.

 

[maverick1]

Also, how would you compare my serve to the two guys here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2caivCZjkg
?

These guys were judged(including by me) to be 4.0 in another thread(http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=122001).

 

[Ten.Is]

Is it me or is it only one serve that is repeated over and over. You can tell after the serve is done the clip goes back again. You repeated 1 serve...

I'm sorry its 2 serves that are constantly repeated. The first one is where he nods his head after the serve. And the second one is the one where he wipes his head with his arm. Its the same two serves repeated.

 

[str33t]

Is it me or is it only one serve that is repeated over and over. You can tell after the serve is done the clip goes back again. You repeated 1 serve...

I'm sorry its 2 serves that are constantly repeated. The first one is where he nods his head after the serve. And the second one is the one where he wipes his head with his arm. Its the same two serves repeated.

interesting, but wrong. just watch the clouds during the whole clip. they move.

 

[drakulie]

Mav, here is my post on page 2. Sorry you didn't see it. It was the last post on that page.

Mav, here are my thoughts,

1. Excellent motion. Very simple, so you probably do not get problems with "hitches" in your serve.
2. Your toss is ok, the problem with your tossing arm is after the toss. You leave it up, rather than tucking it in. You need to tuck it in so you could produce a "counter-weight" effect when your racquet arm goes up after the ball. This is probably resutling in a decrease in the serve speed.
3. Most of the "racquet head speed", is after contact, rather than immediately before impact. This is waisted energy. Work on getting all that energy into the ball. Your serve speed will show an immediate improvement in MPH.

Good stuff. Thanks for sharing the vids with us, and good luck.

Also, when you swing, do you hear the "swoosh" from the racquet loudest over your head or in front of you? If it is in front of you, then most of your swing speed is after contact.

 

[maverick1]

Thanks, Drak. My fault, I usually go to teh last page of a thread to look for updates. I missed yours because it was the last one in its page and there were other updates after it.

Very interesting point about the racket head speed being generated after contact. I will listen for the swoosh next time. No idea where it peaks.
I think the problem may be related to the fact that my takeback isn't far enough, or may be I should let my wrist snap around a bit earlier. Can't wait to try some tweaks. Too bad the weekend is over. It is tough to get empty courts on weekdays around here.
Thanks for your insights.

 

[drakulie]

Your welcome mav. Don't forget about tucking in the tossing arm. Think about it. Take some practice swings without a racquet in your house. Leave your tossing arm up and swing. Dont' bring your tossing arm down.

Then try it again, and this time tuck in your tossing arm as your swing up. Much easier, swifter, and helps genrate more speed by acting like a counterweight.

By the way, I don't think there is a problem with your takeback. Your motion, regardless of your takeback has the essentials. Everybodies takeback is different. I think the biggest problem in your serve is the tossing arm not coming into your body as you swing up to the ball. It stays up.

Anyways, give it a try and see how it goes. Keep us updated. Good luck, and again thanks for sharing the vids with us.

 

[maverick1]

Is it me or is it only one serve that is repeated over and over. You can tell after the serve is done the clip goes back again. You repeated 1 serve...

I'm sorry its 2 serves that are constantly repeated. The first one is where he nods his head after the serve. And the second one is the one where he wipes his head with his arm. Its the same two serves repeated.

Jeez, I am suspected of this?

They are all different unless I made an (very unlikely) error in editing. Besides the clouds, note the number of balls on my side of the court increase. Those were the serves that went into the net. I took an 80-ball basket (it fits about 75 actually) and hit them all. I picked 16 of them. There really wasn't that much difference among the serves that went in. They were mostly pretty similar.

BTW, all but 4 balls were old, sitting in my garage through the winter. But honestly, I haven't noticed a difference in terms of bounce. In matches, with new balls, my very best serves hit the bottom of the fence. In this practice round there was one serve that bounced on right side of the service box and still hit the fence 1 foot high. I could have sworn I included that serve, but when I re-viewed the video I posted, it doesn't seem to be there!

 

[maverick1]

Your welcome mav. Don't forget about tucking in the tossing arm. Think about it. Take some practice swings without a racquet in your house. Leave your tossing arm up and swing. Dont' bring your tossing arm down.

Then try it again, and this time tuck in your tossing arm as your swing up. Much easier, swifter, and helps genrate more speed by acting like a counterweight.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I need to read all the posts again and make a list.
I used to instictively bring it down too early. I trained myself to leave it up there a bit longer because that is what I read one should do. But now it stays up too long. Would you agree it would serve it "counterweight" function best if it came down as the right arm went up?

Good idea, that I can practice te arm tuck at home and build some muscle memory without needing a court. I can even do it with a racket as I have high ceiling in a part of the house. My kids are going to think I have gone nuts, and that is not far from the truth

 

[drakulie]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I need to read all the posts again and make a list.
I used to instictively bring it down too early. I trained myself to leave it up there a bit longer because that is what I read one should do. But now it stays up too long. Would you agree it would serve it "counterweight" function best if it came down as the right arm went up?

Good idea, that I can practice te arm tuck at home and build some muscle memory without needing a court. I can even do it with a racket as I have high ceiling in a part of the house. My kids are going to think I have gone nuts, and that is not far from the truth

Too funny about the kids. My girlfriend thinks I am crazy too when I practice my swing around the house (especially without the racquet).

yes, I definitely think the "counterweight" effect is best as the racquet arm goes up after the ball, the tossing arm should be going down. It is all timing. But remember, if it goes down to soon, you lose the desired effect.

 

[maverick1]

On sunday afternoon, I practiced serves again. Lots of mishits as I was experimenting, but I definitely had more pace . I hit the biggest serve of my life and I caught it on tape:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9xoCtC0X9Q

Its placement wasn't great, but you can see it hitting the 21 ft back fence several feet high.

The main change I was consciously making was to take the racket "up with the toss" as Voltron said. When I tried taking it higher, I was getting more pace although it doesn't look that different on video. May be I can exaggerate it even more and get further pace.

Drakulie's tips were a bit late for this round, but he was absolutely right that I was accelerating the arm after contact in my previous video. I looked at images grabbed from the video, one at contact and the next one. The arm is blurry in both, but it spans a significantly greater angle in the second one.

I thank everyone who is giving feedback or suggestions. This thread has been tremendously valuable. I could pay a lot of money to have my video analyzed professionally, but it would be just one guy looking at it, no matter how good he is. Besides, I'd always be suspicious that he is being too nice; after all, any human wants to keep his customer happy.

I believe in the "law of large numbers" bringing out the truth. It is like the gameshow "who wants to be a millionaire" (i think). I only watched a handful of the episodes, but have you noticed how when they go to the audience for a tough question, the audience's choice is usually the correct one, even though most of the audience who voted for that choice are probably not good enough to win the contest?

 

[drakulie]

Mav, that serve definitely had a lot more speed and action than the others. One thing I noticed in your swing from this angle is the following:

On your toss, the angle of your toss should be more parallel to the baseline, rather than straight in front of you. This will enable you to coil a little more.

Keep us informed on your progress. Also, I uploaded another video with an "action shot" of the video that shows the 14 frames from contact to hitting the ground. Also, a few with the radar at the baseline and back fence.

 

[raiden031]

I must say your serve reminds me of mine. I play at the 3.0 and 3.5 levels although my strokes are developed more like 3.5 players, but I can't seem to win in match play because of unforced errors. Of all the matches I've played in the past few months, I have by far had the best serve. Surprisingly most 3.5 players that I have played have evolved from pushers but with more pace and can put in some more angled shots, yet have really bad serves. Most of them can hit it hard but it always hits the net or sails long because their form sucks. While I can hit my serve pretty hard, I can't yet control whether it goes down the center line or out wide, the only thing I can do is keep it within the service box pretty consistently on the 1st serve. It seems like it doesn't give most opponents trouble though because I can't aim it very well.

 

[maverick1]

I must say your serve reminds me of mine. I play at the 3.0 and 3.5 levels

Did you look at it in video, or are you going by how your serve feels when you hit it?

 

[haerdalis]

Yeah the second video was better, but you still dont open up your chest as much as you could. Taking both arms up at the same time helps you open up your chest. Look at roddick and philippousis, they really open up their chests.

 

[Mike Cottrill]

maverick1,
Can you add your speed calculator to the first entry in your thread in the calculate speed from digital video? It is now a sticky under Getting the Most Out of Your Video.
Calculating Serve Speed from a digital Video
Mike

 

[maverick1]

Update:
The next day after my last video, I served very erratically in two sets against a friend. All those mishits hurt my shoulder. I have played a few times since but I have just used my second serve.
At my age(44 in few days), I have to be very careful experimenting with technique. But I plan to keep at it, looking for ways to increase power without increasing effort.

I have since taken a closer look at pros' form, especially Roddick.
He(& other pros as well) tosses the ball at 12 o'clock position compared to my 1 o'clock.
But the pros arch their back ( I have almost no arch) after they toss, so it looks like a 1 o'clock toss.
This arch of the back seems to help
1. increase the racket tack back, and thus give you more time to accelerate the racket
2. Rotate the torso to add power to the serve.

Roddick seems to have the most knee bend(and consequent explosion) and back arch of the pros I have seen.
I have read about his extreme flexibility, but I think it only LOOKS extreme. I think an average person can replicate the biomechanical angles in his serve, though we may not have his strength, timing, and height.

Roddick has not had a serve related injury as far as I know and of course has a huge serve, so his serve seem worth copying. I was looking at Sampras before, but Sampras's motion is more complicated and difficult to emulate. He starts moving his racket quite late. Any comment on that?

PS: I just got a subscription to tennisplayer.net, after trying tennisone.com for a year. I was very happy with tennisone, and I but I wanted to try something different. I credit TennisOne with whatever technique I have. I have never taken a real formal lesson, and have managed to get to 3.5+ in 15 months at my advanced age.

 

[kevhen]

The video was spliced together but it looks like most serves are going in. I would say the pace of the serves is around 80-85mph (serve looks very similar to my old 3.5 doubles partner). The serve could hold up at the 4.0 level if it is very consistent and if able to place the ball to the corners. I rated it 3.5 but could be 4.0 if consistency and control were there.

 

[maverick1]

The video was spliced together but it looks like most serves are going in. I would say the pace of the serves is around 80-85mph (serve looks very similar to my old 3.5 doubles partner). The serve could hold up at the 4.0 level if it is very consistent and if able to place the ball to the corners. I rated it 3.5 but could be 4.0 if consistency and control were there.

Thanks for the input. Assuming it was completely independent(i.e., without reading other posts in this thread) , it is impressive how well it agrees with my assessment.
Yes the serves were spliced together(apolgize for not stating that right away). In a match, I get about 50% of my first serves in, with an average pace about 5mph lower than those in the video. That was until that day, before I started experimenting. Right now, it is worse, but it will get better. If it doesn't, I can always go back the way it was at the time of the video. That action doesn't hurt me in any way.