Point of diminishing returns with coaching

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Based on your information, your highest ceiling is 5.5 if you are a very good athlete.

Which is nothing to laugh about, 5.5 is an extremely high level of tennis, and if you do manage to get there it would take A TON OF TIME and a TON of training and hard work, and alot of years.

I see zero possibility of you being able to reach 6.0, thats just insane.

6.0 you start getting into ranked players that play official competitions, all of those players have been intensively training since they were 5-6 years old with no pauses between, and even from all those players a handful made it to 6.0+
What's the difference between a 5.5 and a 6.0?

J
 

FiReFTW

Legend
What's the difference between a 5.5 and a 6.0?

J
Well theres a big difference in this 0.5 rating scale as you know, 4.0 vs 4.5 or 4.5 vs 5.0 etc... 0.5 just means a much much better player, usually a 0.5 better player will most likely bagel the weaker player.

4.0 seem to be decent rec players with quite alot of experience
4.5 seem to be very good rec players that hit very consistently and have some weapons and can attack very well
5.0 are extremely good players, not only rec players but also starting to see some players who competed in some national competitions
5.5 are top notch players with extensive experience that also start to compete in bigger events
6.0 seem to be players who compete in smaller atp events and have a ranking
6.5 are better players than 6.0 that are higher in the rankings and compete in bigger events and may also have potential to become a 7.0
7.0 seem to be world class players that compete in the big events and live off with tennis prize money
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Well theres a big difference in this 0.5 rating scale as you know, 4.0 vs 4.5 or 4.5 vs 5.0 etc... 0.5 just means a much much better player, usually a 0.5 better player will most likely bagel the weaker player.

4.0 seem to be decent rec players with quite alot of experience
4.5 seem to be very good rec players that hit very consistently and have some weapons and can attack very well
5.0 are extremely good players, not only rec players but also starting to see some players who competed in some national competitions
5.5 are top notch players with extensive experience that also start to compete in bigger events
6.0 seem to be players who compete in smaller atp events and have a ranking
6.5 are better players than 6.0 that are higher in the rankings and compete in bigger events and may also have potential to become a 7.0
7.0 seem to be world class players that compete in the big events and live off with tennis prize money
What specifically is the difference between a 5.5 and a 6.0?


5.5 are top notch players with extensive experience that also start to compete in bigger events
6.0 seem to be players who compete in smaller atp events and have a ranking

Define bigger events.

Define smaller ATP events.

J
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Look at my thread title. No one has answered my main question. Everyone else is trolling here
I answered your question you ungrateful *******.

I also asked you further questions that required zero thought that you didn't answer.

J
 

zill

Hall of Fame
One day per week of technical training and one day of drilling with a coach is good per week, obviously the more the better but you will reach diminishing returns. Perhaps instead of a third day of coaching you would be better off hiring a hitting partner above your level or towards playing tournaments.

J
Oh thanks. Missed this post from all the other trolls here. This sounds right. I actually have two coaches at the moment. One coach is very experienced (have coached pros) but not a very good player (eg not an ex pro). I do two sessions with him. The third session at the moment I do with an ex ATP player but not the most experienced coach. Working well three sessions per week but costly :(
 

zill

Hall of Fame
Do you currently play #1 for your 4.5 team?

What was your record last year?

How are you doing in Men's Open tournaments?

What's your UTR?

Have you found another 40 year old 6.0 who wasn't previously an ATP player whom you could ask for advice?

J
I'm not in the US so can't answer these questions.
 

zill

Hall of Fame
What specifically is the difference between a 5.5 and a 6.0?


5.5 are top notch players with extensive experience that also start to compete in bigger events
6.0 seem to be players who compete in smaller atp events and have a ranking

Define bigger events.

Define smaller ATP events.

J
I guess getting an ATP ranking doesn't make you a 6.0 player. Maybe 5.5 is really the top for me.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
I guess getting an ATP ranking doesn't make you a 6.0 player. Maybe 5.5 is really the top for me.
It's a complicated trick question.

You can't answer it if you don't live in the US and have extensive experience.

I directed it at the other guy for that specific reason.

J
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
I'm not in the US so can't answer these questions.
Well does your country have some sort of organized play? You should get involved as soon as possible. Matches aren't the best thing while you train but you need to play matches to work on your competition level and find out what you need to work on.

Maybe train for three months and play matches for three months alternating.

J
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
I guess getting an ATP ranking doesn't make you a 6.0 player. Maybe 5.5 is really the top for me.
Look, the bottom line is that you are an OK player and you want to see how good you can get. Numbers don't really matter.

J
 

zill

Hall of Fame
It's a complicated trick question.

You can't answer it if you don't live in the US and have extensive experience.

I directed it at the other guy for that specific reason.

J
Ok so what NTRP ranking would a good solid college level player have at the end of his 4 year degree in the US? I want to achieve this level at the minimum.
 

zill

Hall of Fame
Well does your country have some sort of organized play? You should get involved as soon as possible. Matches aren't the best thing while you train but you need to play matches to work on your competition level and find out what you need to work on.

Maybe train for three months and play matches for three months alternating.

J
Yes I do play many matches cocurrently with my training but not tournaments yet as they squeeze you in possibly playing 2 or 3 best of 3 set matches in a day. Don't want to risk injury.
 
Do you currently play #1 for your 4.5 team?

What was your record last year?

How are you doing in Men's Open tournaments?

What's your UTR?

Have you found another 40 year old 6.0 who wasn't previously an ATP player whom you could ask for advice?

J
I hit with a 46 year old 5.5 this week. But he was once ATP Top 30. :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Ok so what NTRP ranking would a good solid college level player have at the end of his 4 year degree in the US? I want to achieve this level at the minimum.
4.5-5.0, if you were an elite college player 5.5.

For your purposes UTR is a better scale.

Aim for 10 or so UTR.

You can go to their site and look up players you know and see their UTR.

J
 
Ok so what NTRP ranking would a good solid college level player have at the end of his 4 year degree in the US? I want to achieve this level at the minimum.
It depends on what your definition of "good solid" is. I'd say they range from 5.0 and up. The ex-Div III guys I'm lucky enough to hit with are typically 5.0s.
 
I would argue our local D1 players are almost all 6.0 or better in that they inevitably are ranked very highly nationally and certainly have demonstrated their competitive acumen by earning that ranking to be recruited for the team


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

PMChambers

Hall of Fame
Maybe 1hr extra physical training and shadow foot work patterns might be more value. Beefing up the legs and strengthening the core are important Stretching is also valuable but boring. Movement and strength are very important.
 

zill

Hall of Fame
Maybe 1hr extra physical training and shadow foot work patterns might be more value. Beefing up the legs and strengthening the core are important Stretching is also valuable but boring. Movement and strength are very important.
Yes I do gym 3 times a week currently.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
To answer the question, for you to rise to 5.5 or 6.0 it would be very important to have 3 lessons a week and with a very, very good coach....having this good of coach may be more rare than a player with the potential to reach 5.5.
 

zill

Hall of Fame
To answer the question, for you to rise to 5.5 or 6.0 it would be very important to have 3 lessons a week and with a very, very good coach....having this good of coach may be more rare than a player with the potential to reach 5.5.
Interesting. How about a coach with almost 10 years of experience coaching at the WTA or ATP level? Or does it depend on the coach?
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Interesting. How about a coach with almost 10 years of experience coaching at the WTA or ATP level? Or does it depend on the coach?
It would depend on the coach, but that does sound like a good indication in general. The thing is, those guys don't do a lot of developing of players and their strokes, which is a bit of a speciality. Pro coaches are more about making sure the prep is there, polishing things up and developing strategies/tactics for matches. The question would be why you are at 4.5 now. Is it because your game is new and while the foundation is strong, it is still growing....or are you a 4.5 because you are a good athlete that has stroke flaws that will continue to restict further progress?
 

zill

Hall of Fame
It would depend on the coach, but that does sound like a good indication in general. The thing is, those guys don't do a lot of developing of players and their strokes, which is a bit of a speciality. Pro coaches are more about making sure the prep is there, polishing things up and developing strategies/tactics for matches. The question would be why you are at 4.5 now. Is it because your game is new and while the foundation is strong, it is still growing....or are you a 4.5 because you are a good athlete that has stroke flaws that will continue to restict further progress?
I started at age 8 but didn't get regular coaching. Played comps but didn't do well as a result. Was also overweight as a kid. Stopped playing at age 20. Started again at age 30. So still 4.5 but taking it seriously now including fitness. Strokes need grooving after the long break but developing well now. Have been playing constantly for 2 years since my comeback. Was slow because got a few injuries which wasn't surprising given my long lay off.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
I started at age 8 but didn't get regular coaching. Played comps but didn't do well as a result. Was also overweight as a kid. Stopped playing at age 20. Started again at age 30. So still 4.5 but taking it seriously now including fitness. Strokes need grooving after the long break but developing well now. Have been playing constantly for 2 years since my comeback. Was slow because got a few injuries which wasn't surprising given my long lay off.
So it's pretty likely that your start at 8 without top coaching led to some foundational flaws that your current pro may or may not be able to smooth out. I love what your are doing and wish you the best. I just wanted to be sure you realized that for your lofty goals, there are very few coaches up to that task, even if your are.
 

zill

Hall of Fame
So it's pretty likely that your start at 8 without top coaching led to some foundational flaws that your current pro may or may not be able to smooth out. I love what your are doing and wish you the best. I just wanted to be sure you realized that for your lofty goals, there are very few coaches up to that task, even if your are.
But I did have my Dad feed me balls every weekend as a kid (he doesn't know anything about technique though). There are flaws yes but think they are not that bad. Thing is every coach I have approached are interested to work with me. So that's a good sign to start with I think.

My biggest drawback is not having had enough hits with the very good players as a junior. So my strokes are grooved at balls coming relatively slowly to me. That is something important and challenging to work on going forwards
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
So my strokes are grooved at balls coming relatively slowly to me. That is something important and challenging to work on going forwards
So maybe to add a bit of perspective here that could help going forward, you are grooved at hitting the falling ball, but don't have the adjustment to hit the rising ball, which what you tend to face from the bigger hitters. Maybe that adjustment in how you perceive the skills you need to improve, can make it a bit easier to make the adjustments in the swing technique?
 

Hmgraphite1

Hall of Fame
Ttps
So maybe to add a bit of perspective here that could help going forward, you are grooved at hitting the falling ball, but don't have the adjustment to hit the rising ball, which what you tend to face from the bigger hitters. Maybe that adjustment in how you perceive the skills you need to improve, can make it a bit easier to make the adjustments in the swing technique?
How to make this adjustment?, they keep flying on me and I'm falling back on bh , fh no problem.
 

zill

Hall of Fame
So maybe to add a bit of perspective here that could help going forward, you are grooved at hitting the falling ball, but don't have the adjustment to hit the rising ball, which what you tend to face from the bigger hitters. Maybe that adjustment in how you perceive the skills you need to improve, can make it a bit easier to make the adjustments in the swing technique?
Ok at taking it on the rise I guess. It's just when the ball is coming at me faster, I'm off balanced, a bit lost because I've been playing with people hitting slower balls. I have long strokes so that makes it worse. Note: My strokes are like Thiems but (slightly even) longer. Not surprising I like clay the best.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Ok at taking it on the rise I guess. It's just when the ball is coming at me faster, I'm off balanced, a bit lost because I've been playing with people hitting slower balls. I have long strokes so that makes it worse. Note: My strokes are like Thiems but (slightly even) longer. Not surprising I like clay the best.
Interesting you mention Thiems, as I see him as a falling ball hitting on his Fh and it tends to lead him to getting pushed further back into the backcourt. Clay helps for hitting more falling balls as well.

I'm not there and can't be sure of course, but my bet is you are using the same technique for the rising balls as you do for falling balls....which is sort of ok as long as the balls stay kind of easy....but then it breaks down as the balls speed up and a rising ball technique becomes a must.
 

zill

Hall of Fame
Interesting you mention Thiems, as I see him as a falling ball hitting on his Fh and it tends to lead him to getting pushed further back into the backcourt. Clay helps for hitting more falling balls as well.

I'm not there and can't be sure of course, but my bet is you are using the same technique for the rising balls as you do for falling balls....which is sort of ok as long as the balls stay kind of easy....but then it breaks down as the balls speed up and a rising ball technique becomes a must.
Surely Thiem can do both???? Am actually working on hitting the balls on the rise more effectively. Changing the angle I make contact with the ball (using more vertical rather than horizontal racquet face) on the forehand. For me its about getting the timing right and to sustain the rallies when my opponent is good.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Ttps

How to make this adjustment?, they keep flying on me and I'm falling back on bh , fh no problem.
The basic adjustment is to swing more horizontal on the rising or 'top of the bounce' contacts.

When the ball is falling for contact, swinging more low to high even with shoulder tilt works great, but when the ball is rising and your swing is rising....then what is to keep the ball from launching way more up and out than you intend? That is where rec players try to compensate with wrist articulation....which works poorly.
 
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zill

Hall of Fame
The basic adjustment is to swing more horizontal on the rising or 'top of the bounce' contacts.

When the ball is falling for contact, swinging more low to high even with shoulder turn works great, but when the ball is rising and your swing is rising....then what is to keep the ball from launching way more up and out than you intend? That is where rec players try to compensate with wrist articulation....which works poorly.
I find it helps to think to myself to hit the ball with a vertical racquet face and on the side. This naturally makes me hit more horizontally and forwards. Offcourse that is in my head. In reality I make contact with the ball with a pretty horizontal racquet face.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Surely Thiem can do both???? Am actually working on hitting the balls on the rise more effectively. Changing the angle I make contact with the ball (using more vertical rather than horizontal racquet face) on the forehand. For me its about getting the timing right and to sustain the rallies when my opponent is good.
Sure, Theim is a talented player and probably can do both....but for whatever reason, his Fh is more tuned or comfy with the falling ball. I didn't watch him alot last year, but when I did, he didn't often work hard to get up into the court to cut off balls on the rise when he could have and ended up running around 4-8' behind the baseline quite often. He did a much better job with the rising balls on his Bh though. As a side note, if the ball is at or near the peak of the bounce and in your strike zone, you have the option and either technique will suffice.
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
I've changed my strokes since then. That was 9 months ago those videos.

It's still not exactly like Thiem's but has that flavour.
It is absolutely impossible to look at thiem and conclude that he is anything but a well trained tennis player. From your videos, you look like a rec player. Not that there’s anything wrong with that because that describes the vast majority of tennis players. Just do not compare yourself to a pro because there really isn’t any similarity.
 
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