Point of diminishing returns with coaching

zill

Hall of Fame
It is absolutely impossible to look at thiem and conclude that he is anything but a well trained tennis player. From your videos, you look like a rec player. Not that there’s anything wrong with that because that describes the vast majority of tennis players. Just do not compare yourself to a pro because there really isn’t any similarity.
I will post a video of myself soon when my strokes stabilise. In the next few month and then you guys can comment.
 

atp2015

Hall of Fame
No. Please answer my thread question if you can answer it.
You will need to prove you are not trolling before I make an attempt. It may not be intentional but you are trolling here unless you can prove otherwise.

It amazes me so many here have taken you seriously and been answering your 'great' questions.
 

zill

Hall of Fame
He did a much better job with the rising balls on his Bh though.
Yes I can see that. Major reason I think is he prepares his raquet as if he is going to hit the ball on the vertical and on the side of the racquet. He kind of does that on the forehand as well but not as explicit. I'm trying to do that on my forehand side
 

zill

Hall of Fame
You will need to prove you are not trolling before I make an attempt. It may not be intentional but you are trolling here unless you can prove otherwise.
All I'm doing is providing background info to my original question. If I said all I want to do is to play competitive recreational tennis than obviously coaching 3 times a week is over kill. I want to get serious with tennis but am funding it all myself and I'm not rich nowhere near rich in fact.
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
No. Please answer my thread question if you can answer it.
1 more lesson a week won’t be that useful because you need time to absorb, process, and practice the material from each lesson. There is such a thing as being overwhelmed with too much material.
 

zill

Hall of Fame
1 more lesson a week won’t be that useful because you need time to absorb, process, and practice the material from each lesson. There is such a thing as being overwhelmed with too much material.
So 2 lessons a week max?
 

atp2015

Hall of Fame
1 more lesson a week won’t be that useful because you need time to absorb, process, and practice the material from each lesson. There is such a thing as being overwhelmed with too much material.
A coach to keep an eye on every ball you hit is great if affordable.
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
So 2 lessons a week max?
Initially, yes. As your level increases, you will have the ability to absorb more. At that point, you can consider adding another lesson. You’ll know if you are absorbing the content being taught and how quickly you are getting it.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
It is absolutely impossible to look at thiem and conclude that he is anything but a well trained tennis player. From your videos, you look like a rec player. Not that there’s anything wrong with that because that describes the vast majority of tennis players. Just do not compare yourself to a pro because there really isn’t any similarity.
He just said his shot technique is similar to Thiem, not the quality of his shots.
Whats so inplausable about that?

His technique could very well be a carbon copy of thiem and yet his shot quality would be much worse because he has like 100 times less time, experience and mileage on those shots, so the timing and everything is much worse.
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
Based on your information, your highest ceiling is 5.5 if you are a very good athlete.

Which is nothing to laugh about, 5.5 is an extremely high level of tennis, and if you do manage to get there it would take A TON OF TIME and a TON of training and hard work, and alot of years.

I see zero possibility of you being able to reach 6.0, thats just insane.

6.0 you start getting into ranked players that play official competitions, all of those players have been intensively training since they were 5-6 years old with no pauses between, and even from all those players a handful made it to 6.0+
Let the guy(or gal) have all the fun he wants even if he fails fantastically.
 
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zill

Hall of Fame
Based on your information, your highest ceiling is 5.5 if you are a very good athlete.

Which is nothing to laugh about, 5.5 is an extremely high level of tennis, and if you do manage to get there it would take A TON OF TIME and a TON of training and hard work, and alot of years.

I see zero possibility of you being able to reach 6.0, thats just insane.

6.0 you start getting into ranked players that play official competitions, all of those players have been intensively training since they were 5-6 years old with no pauses between, and even from all those players a handful made it to 6.0+
Ok so what range (ATP ranking) are 6.0 players?
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
He just said his shot technique is similar to Thiem, not the quality of his shots.
Whats so inplausable about that?

His technique could very well be a carbon copy of thiem and yet his shot quality would be much worse because he has like 100 times less time, experience and mileage on those shots, so the timing and everything is much worse.
Here’s a video he posted in another thread. Does this look like Thiem?
 

zill

Hall of Fame
Here’s a video he posted in another thread. Does this look like Thiem?
That was 9 months ago. I'm different level now so to speak. That video does not reflect my play now. For starters I now use a different racquet! Also my backhand was completely off that day. I will post a current video soon.
 

zill

Hall of Fame
I understand some people get motivation when told they can’t do something. If you are, here’s some motivation.

You will never reach 6.0 level.

You can thank me in 8 years.
Thats fine. I mean 6.0 level can't even make a living as a tennis player right?

My question is what ATP ranking is 6.0 level???
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Thats fine. I mean 6.0 level can't even make a living as a tennis player right?

My question is what ATP ranking is 6.0 level???
Lemme help you out a bit because you don't seem to be grasping this concept.

The 6.0 level doesn't exist, it's a fairy tale. It's a relic of a bygone era. The 6.0 NTRP was meant to describe what is currently 5.0. It is now useless and doesn't exist.

That's why everyone is making fun of you.

What you need to do is familiarize yourself with the UTR system. Find out the UTR of your peers, and set a UTR goal. It's easy to track, gives you a precise number so you will know exactly where you stand in the world and will have measurable progress.

J
 
That was 9 months ago. I'm different level now so to speak. That video does not reflect my play now. For starters I now use a different racquet! Also my backhand was completely off that day. I will post a current video soon.
I do see the Thiem comparison. It’s in the backhand swing path.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
My question is what ATP ranking is 6.0 level???
You might not know how you earn an ATP ranking so I’ll explain how it works. You need to earn 1 point to obtain an ATP ranking. To earn a point you need to win a match in the main draw of an ITF Futures event. What level you are doesn’t matter one bit. You just need to win your first round match in the main draw.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
You might not know how you earn an ATP ranking so I’ll explain how it works. You need to earn 1 point to obtain an ATP ranking. To earn a point you need to win a match in the main draw of an ITF Futures event. What level you are doesn’t matter one bit. You just need to win your first round match in the main draw.
And you better hurry because it's all changing next year.

J
 

rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
Here’s a video he posted in another thread. Does this look like Thiem?
Omg. No. No. No.

I guarantee if you play a ntrp 4.5 tournament you get bagels 1st round.

You are not even a utr 6 right now. 12 year old girls will beat you silly. I can spot the little tells of inexperienced strokes in a second.

9 months does not change much. If the basis is so flawed. You are comparable to a 8 year old boy that just started juniors and playing seriously. That boy has a chance of an ATP ranking if he dilligently practices full time. 6 days a week under coaching for 10 years. You have no chance.

This place is ridiculous.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Omg. No. No. No.

I guarantee if you play a ntrp 4.5 tournament you get bagels 1st round.

You are not even a utr 6 right now. 12 year old girls will beat you silly. I can spot the little tells of inexperienced strokes in a second.

9 months does not change much. If the basis is so flawed. You are comparable to a 8 year old boy that just started juniors and playing seriously. That boy has a chance of an ATP ranking if he dilligently practices full time. 6 days a week under coaching for 10 years. You have no chance.

This place is ridiculous.
A person for whom this place is really ridiculous would not be posting more than a 1000 messages here.
 

rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
I mean that someone who finds all the posters here to be very low-level players would not be wasting his time posting here. He would be spending his time playing with advanced opponents.
Also what is ridiculous is someone who thinks they can get an ATP ranking starting at 32. And looks like that in a video.

The forum is just a forum. But mean the people here are ridiculous. Case in point.
 

rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
The problem also with sureshs is he honestly doesn't even care about getting better at tennis. Why is he the top poster in a tips and technique tennis forum? This is ridiculous as well. How can sureshs say the op of this thread has any semblance of reality?
I mean that someone who finds all the posters here to be very low-level players would not be wasting his time posting here. He would be spending his time playing with advanced opponents.
omg. threads like this make me want to quit (that and everything sureshs says).
OP, what surface are you playing on? looks like quicksand, cuz your feet look stuck in the mud.
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
I have to take my statement about you can not reach 6.0 back. I am sorry. Given what i see on the video, i don't think you can get to 5.5 in 4 years. :confused::confused::confused:
On a side note, TTPS is back and we should get him over here.
 
Zill,

It depends on what you expect to get from coaching.

5% of coaching is to identify flaws.
95% of coaching is drilling millions of reps to ingrain a new habit.

The first part will show diminishing returns rather quickly.
If you take 2 lessons, you will still have the same issues on the 3rd lesson (and for weeks after, frankly)
But, you will use the lesson to drill and correct your flaw.

You may not correctly ingrain new strokes without live feedback.
Uncoached players hit 5 days a week for 40 years stay at 3.0 and 3.5
They have perfected their broken strokes beyond the point of no return.

I doubt you are even a 4.0 so focus on the process.
I don't even know what 6.0 means, I like that you have delusional goals

If you like drilling and taking lessons, then go for it.
But, lessons are not the only thing you will need.
You'll need to play a variety of players in matches.

As an adult, to even get to 5.0, you may need to quit your job.
I have never met anyone who has reached 5.0 who started as an adult.
You are correct that you'll need to play 6-7 days a week.
You also need to play more than once a day. That is a given.
College players play 4 hours a day, 6-7 days a week.

Personally, I use a multi-tiered pyramid approach to coaching, to maximize value
Pay an expensive former ATP ranked coach, and have him identify flaws.
You supplement this with cheaper $50 coaches to feed the drills, several more times a week.
You can also hire 5.0 college kids as hitting partners.
I also do the drills for free with various hitting partners at the club.
You don't need a to hire a $150 guy to do the work of a $50 guy.

Then you need to play matches a few times a week, so see if the drills are translating into real life.
This is the only way to see if your new strokes are becoming permanent and automatic.
Once the skills are reliable in match play, you can move onto drilling the next skill.
 
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rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
It depends on what you expect to get from coaching.

5% of coaching is to identify flaws.
95% of coaching is drilling millions of reps to ingrain a new habit.

The first part will show diminishing returns rather quickly.
If you take 2 lessons, you will still have the same issues on the 3rd lesson.
But, you will use the lesson to drill and correct your flaw.

I doubt you are even a 4.0 so focus on the process.
I like that you have delusional goals like 6.0

If you like drilling and taking lessons, then go for it.
But, lessons are not the only thing you will need.
You'll need to play a variety of players in matches.

To even get to 5.0, you will need to quit your job.
You are correct that you'll need to play 6-7 days a week.
That is a given.
Can't believe ttps posted something not crazy and I agree with.
 

rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
There are at least 2 guys on youtube that get to 5.0 and look like they are not jobless.
Well jolly has a job and he is 5.0. Topspin shot is, Max mag from here is 5.0. Navigator is 5 0. (But old 5.0, pretty sure jolly, topspin shot, maxmag would easily beat navigator)

But oh wait. Navigator is wealthy and retired. And he doesn't have a job and plays basically full time.
 
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