Point system - OVERHAUL

MrFlip

Hall of Fame
What's it going to take for the governing ATP/ITF/Slam bodies to step in and change the point system?

Davidovich 18# loses to #82
Ruud #12 loses to #107
Mensik #16 loses to #182
Nakashima #30 loses to #175
Rune #11 loses to #144

Samsonova #14 loses to #126

The ATP/Slam Tour is blending with Challenger tournaments these days.

Somehow players will stay inside top 30 but struggle week in and week out against any player almost. Call me bias but this wasn't a problem say 10-15 years ago. Seeded players would actually perform.
 
To add:

- We're going to continue to see trends like this for years to come because in a system where it doesnt matter if you lost to someone ranked 1 billionth in the world, as long you as somehow made the same round as last year, you'll keep you points, which is absolutely absurd to me. Makes zero sense.

- I understand the point system, dont get me wrong. It just allows for corruption and a tour system where players can't break in.
 
Tsitsipas #28 loses to #56
Cerundolo #19 loses to #437
Kachenov #9 loses to #76

Is anyone paying attention yet? This is happening routinely as of late and it's just accepted now.

Either one of the worst eras in tennis or something is broken.
 
This has happened since forever in this sport. The Big 3’s consistency has warped people’s ideas about what is essentially a 50/50 sport for 99.9% of players.
The Big 3 were a massive outlier and a phenomenon that does not occur often. The masses (especially here on TTW) should learn to appreciate their achievements one day (probably not here on TTW, though, as this board is a nut house on a good day).
 
The ATP/Slam Tour is blending with Challenger tournaments these days.

Somehow players will stay inside top 30 but struggle week in and week out against any player almost. Call me bias but this wasn't a problem say 10-15 years ago. Seeded players would actually perform.
There are a lot more capable pro tennis players today than a couple decades back. There are over 2,000 ATP ranked tennis players out of whom many in the first 1,000 are working very hard to be able to compete with the very top. The modern tech and other means for the privileged ones have been assisting those players in the so many pro events available today. The gap may be shrinking but benefits aren't improving enough. That's probably why those (especially younger ones) ranked in, for example, 500th ATP spot are putting everything to it. There's a large number of 17-22 year olds in between 100 and 600th ATP ranking spot that are literally putting their blood on the line.
 
Your concern is absolutely valid.

A revamped points system is the need of the hour.

Give 5,000 points and a honorary slam title to anyone who wins Queens on Ser Andy Murray Arena, the holy grail of tennis.
 
There is no ranking system that will guarantee that players never lose to lower-ranked players. It's really weird to think that there is or should be one.

On another note, the depth in men's tennis was much higher in the past than it is today. Upsets used to be more common than they are now. And that was a good thing.
 
Upsets happen.

The real mystery of the point system to me is how Ugo Humbert seems fixed around #20. I don’t even think he’s real.
Oh ok so you happen to notice ONE player and how the somehow stay in the top 20 but when it's top 20 players regularly losing to challenger level players...that's nothing unusual
 
Ruud and Tsitsipas are sliding down the rankings, sure.

A new ranking system would ensure that these type of players can't play half-assed for 8 months of the year and still maintain their top 20 position.
 
There is no ranking system that will guarantee that players never lose to lower-ranked players. It's really weird to think that there is or should be one.

On another note, the depth in men's tennis was much higher in the past than it is today. Upsets used to be more common than they are now. And that was a good thing.
That's not the point.

The goal of the new ranking system would be not allow players who lose regularly to much lower ranked players maintain their top 20 position.

I don't care who is in the top 20 week in/week out. The system is broken when players like Tiafoe, Ruud, Tsitsipas are still top 30.
 
There are a lot more capable pro tennis players today than a couple decades back. There are over 2,000 ATP ranked tennis players out of whom many in the first 1,000 are working very hard to be able to compete with the very top. The modern tech and other means for the privileged ones have been assisting those players in the so many pro events available today. The gap may be shrinking but benefits aren't improving enough. That's probably why those (especially younger ones) ranked in, for example, 500th ATP spot are putting everything to it. There's a large number of 17-22 year olds in between 100 and 600th ATP ranking spot that are literally putting their blood on the line.
I appreciate this point.

It's a brutal sport. The top guys are protected with their ranking. It's a club
 
That's not the point.

The goal of the new ranking system would be not allow players who lose regularly to much lower ranked players maintain their top 20 position.

I don't care who is in the top 20 week in/week out. The system is broken when players like Tiafoe, Ruud, Tsitsipas are still top 30.

Name 30 players whom you think have better results in the last 12 months than Tiafoe, Ruud, and Tsitsipas. Ruud won a masters. That on its own puts a player in or about the top 50 in this ranking system, and rightly so. You just have an overly hierarchical view of the world and think that any form of competition is disorderly.
 

At Wimbledon 1990, six of 16 seeds made the last 16. What a ridiculous seeding system. They should have retroactively changed it such that all 16 of the last 16 were seeded. If the ranking system doesn't correctly predict the results of every match, it's a flawed ranking system and should be overhauled.

It's like when #14 Wolverhampton Wanderers beats #4 Chelsea in match 36 of the Premiership, yet somehow Chelsea are still higher in the table than Wolverhampton. Corruption!
 
Name 30 players whom you think have better results in the last 12 months than Tiafoe, Ruud, and Tsitsipas. Ruud won a masters. That on its own puts a player in or about the top 50 in this ranking system, and rightly so. You just have an overly hierarchical view of the world and think that any form of competition is disorderly.
I dont have a problem with disorder or chaos, i have a problem with players regularly being beaten by those outside the top 80 and maintaining their position because they did really well in ONE tournament which lets them stay in the top 20 or 30 for a whole year.

Make THAT make sense.
 
I dont have a problem with disorder or chaos, i have a problem with players regularly being beaten by those outside the top 80 and maintaining their position because they did really well in ONE tournament which lets them stay in the top 20 or 30 for a whole year.

Make THAT make sense.
Makes sense to me. The top 30 position is like a membership card to a high-end club which offers benefits out of reach to those below. I'd bet sponsors may have something to do with that. One may argue that everyone outside the top 30 has chances to fight for that membership card but how the one and many others overlook those benefits is beyond me. Down to those financiers who'd do anything to be seen in front of cameras when necessary and hidden when assistance needed.
 
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I dont have a problem with disorder or chaos, i have a problem with players regularly being beaten by those outside the top 80 and maintaining their position because they did really well in ONE tournament which lets them stay in the top 20 or 30 for a whole year.

Make THAT make sense.

Ruud's match record for the year is 29-12 (70% win rate). He's won an MS event, putting him among only six men to have won a title at that level or higher (Alcaraz, Sinner, Draper, Mensik, Ruud, and Shelton). Only 11 players have even made the final of an event of that caliber (the five to lose a final are Zverev, Rune, Djokovic, Musetti, and Khachanov). And it's just not true that Ruud's other form would put him outside the top 30. He was runner-up in Dallas, quarter-finalist in Rome, and lost in the R16 of Miami and Monte Carlo. Of course someone who repeatedly makes the last 16 of major events will rank well inside the top 30. Only 16 people make the last 16 of an event. To maintain a top 30 ranking, you only need to be averaging making the last 32. Players who really are about the 30th best usually have win percentages of more like 55-60% than 70%. (It can be higher if they play lots of low-level events). If you actually look at the recent records of people in the 25-35 range, you'll see that they are significantly worse than Ruud's. For example, the world #31 (Brandon Nakashima) has a 26-22 match record (54% win rate). He hasn't made a final all year. He did make R3 of Wimbledon but lost in R1 or R2 at the other slams. He's made the last 16 of three MS events, and the semis of Acapulco and Houston. He's done fine. Not as well as Ruud, but about as well as you can expect someone who really is about the 30th best player in the world to do. Or take the world #30 (Tallon Griekspoor). His match record is 26-18 (59%). He won a 250 (Mallorca) and lost another 250 final (Marrakech). He made round 4 of Roland Garros but lost in round 1 at all the other three slams. He was a quarter-finalist at Indian Wells but he didn't make the last 32 of any other MS event yet this year.

The ability of the tour can usually be mapped onto a bell-shaped curve. Other than the very top players, there's not that much difference between the players. Thus, it's very common for the #11 to lose to the #81. Often, the #11 will only have about a 70-75% chance of beating the #81. Thus, given how many matches players play, you'll be able to find numerous instances of the #81 beating the #11 - though more instances of the #81 losing to the #11. This has been true for almost all the 38 years that I've watched tennis. At some points (such as 1998 or 1999), it was much more true than it is now. I promise you that you would not be able to develop a ranking system in which it won't frequently be the case that almost all players in the 11-20 range and even more so the 21-30 range have lost several times against much lower-ranked players during the season.

This is not to say that I think the ranking system is perfect - it's not. Far from it. But the evidence you're using to show that it's broken is not the right evidence.
 
Upsets happen in every sport, but they’re unusually common in tennis. The ranking system has nothing to do with it. It’s just the nature of the sport being man to man so it depends on the form of the day. Bad days are inevitable even for the best. Add to that the scoring system that allows to make a comeback after a humiliating start. You can eat a bagel and win the next set. In football, if you’re down 6-0 in the first half, you’re almost certainly finished for the rest of the match.
 
Here are the averages from those results:
  • Average rank of losing player: ~14.8
  • Average rank of winning player: ~138.8
  • Average rank difference: ~124.2

Without the Cerundolo upset to #437, the averages shift to:
  • Average rank of losing player: ~14.4
  • Average rank of winning player: 114.0
  • Average rank difference: ~99.6
 
I dont have a problem with disorder or chaos, i have a problem with players regularly being beaten by those outside the top 80 and maintaining their position because they did really well in ONE tournament which lets them stay in the top 20 or 30 for a whole year.

Make THAT make sense.
What you're really arguing for is a shorter rankings period -- 6 months? 3 months? Points earned would drop off a lot more quickly. It's not as though no one has ever thought of this before, but it's just too "what have you done for me lately?" for most players and fans. A two-year rankings period has been rejected for the opposite reason. Maybe just be satisfied with the compromise?
 
Keep the ranking system the same just add in a new factor where if you lose against a lower ranked opponent their ranking factors into how far you move down.

Obviously the equation to calculate this should take into account points accumulated during an event, against the rank of the opponent.

E.g. Tiafoe #14 loses to Watanuki #97 Indian Wells in R3 - then it'd be 100 - 83 = 17 points for Tiafoe.

I think this is fair considering if someone loses time and time again against a much lower ranked opponent then the argument holds true = "ranking means nothing in tennis sometimes" as I often hear...well so be it.
 
I should say - not move down the ranking, but how many points you earn - that's all.

This will not only expose the players who lose regularly but reward those who actually hold their own against all ranks.
 
ATP is a TV/AD monopoly never really interested in needs of players
all the way back from Vilas days it was clear they dont care.

During SPAMdermic same thing, sacrificed all above top 20 hence
for first time I rooted for Novaks silly named alternative faction.
Unlike the programmed herds, I support underdogs.

Now ATP with eyetalian mafia chief, all of Roma is likely on drugs
as you have all these feeble bodied athletes (even Berretini was
like a rake in late teens) swinging faster for longer than others.

On the WTA Simona Halep's career was destroyed by the same
drug gate keepers on both sides, there is no equality in Tennis.

Yet plenty of cognitive dissonant fans bending over like Yogis
for the truth and supporting any of the false fabricated excuses
by their media controlled Stockholm Syndrome dealers.
 
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ATP is a TV/AD monopoly never really interested in needs of players
all the way back from Vilas days it was clear they dont care.

During SPAMdermic same thing, sacrificed all above top 20 hence
for first time I rooted for Novaks silly named alternative faction.
Unlike the programmed herds, I support underdogs.

Now ATP with eyetalian mafia chief, all of Roma is likely on drugs
as you have all these feeble bodied athletes (even Berretini was
like a rake in late teens) swinging faster for longer than others.

On the WTA Simona Halep's career was destroyed by the same
drug gate keepers on both sides, there is no equality in Tennis.

Yet plenty of cognitive dissonant fans bending over like Yogis
for the truth and supporting any of the false fabricated excuses
by their media controlled Stockholm Syndrome dealers.
It's a club.
 
Club of Rome is also a corporation above all others
ATP adhere to the Agenda of this Occult religiously
yet schools of pilchards fall for all the baits.
 
What's it going to take for the governing ATP/ITF/Slam bodies to step in and change the point system?

Davidovich 18# loses to #82
Ruud #12 loses to #107
Mensik #16 loses to #182
Nakashima #30 loses to #175
Rune #11 loses to #144

Samsonova #14 loses to #126

The ATP/Slam Tour is blending with Challenger tournaments these days.

Somehow players will stay inside top 30 but struggle week in and week out against any player almost. Call me bias but this wasn't a problem say 10-15 years ago. Seeded players would actually perform.
Typical amateur way of thinking with no clue how pro sports work.
 
On paper : struff being 144 was due to what - injury ? The guy is much more talented than his ranking.

Also I will continue to repeat what Djoko has said: don’t underestimate guys ranked 101-200. They can all hit and beat anyone on a good day.
 
How the hell was Tommy Paul ranked 8th at one point this year???? Dude should be in the 40s.
Consistency. Points aren’t just acquired in grand slams.
He was in a m1000 SF in rome. Back to back QF appearances in Australia and RG. Usually consistent top 8 and 16 finishes in tourneys get you points. Who would’ve thought ? Usually why you get a ranking in the top 10-15.

Also he was hurt during Wimbledon and foot was in a boot 10 days prior to cincy.
 
Typical amateur way of thinking with no clue how pro sports work.
You and others walk straight into my argument.

If players can be upset at any point which I agree, why the heck are they afforded such a long standing ranking then? Because the system protects them from being penalised for getting their a** handed to them by someone ranked 150 in the world.
 
You and others walk straight into my argument.

If players can be upset at any point which I agree, why the heck are they afforded such a long standing ranking then? Because the system protects them from being penalised for getting their a** handed to them by someone ranked 150 in the world.
Seasons 10+ months long pal.
One upset through several 500, m1000’s and 3 other slams played plus 250s means one has to be consistent to stay in the top 10-15.
 
Consistency. Points aren’t just acquired in grand slams.
He was in a m1000 SF in rome. Back to back QF appearances in Australia and RG. Usually consistent top 8 and 16 finishes in tourneys get you points. Who would’ve thought ? Usually why you get a ranking in the top 10-15.

Also he was hurt during Wimbledon and foot was in a boot 10 days prior to cincy.
Thank you, although I didn't really mean this literally, more like "Tommy Paul is never talked about, yet he is ranked so high."
 
Seasons 10+ months long pal.
One upset through several 500, m1000’s and 3 other slams played plus 250s means one has to be consistent to stay in the top 10-15.
I get that, im not telling everyone I don't understand the ranking system or appreciate it.

What I'm saying is is that there's been a surge in challenger players now knocking out seeded players which is getting ridiculous. There were flashes in the pan like Bagdhatis 2006. Now we get Lois Bosion making the SF or Reidi making R4. The usual suspects struggle just to hold a clean game. De Minaur looked shakey against a back-to-back 5 set player and everyone is like "oh this is normal now". It never has been.

The ranking system is becoming out of date and needs to incorporate this surge of challenger level players causing upsets.

Clearly, I'm still the only one wasting money. If you did you'd see how hard it is to throw anything down on Ruud or Tsitsipas or Tiafoe. It's becoming a joke.
 
I get that, im not telling everyone I don't understand the ranking system or appreciate it.

What I'm saying is is that there's been a surge in challenger players now knocking out seeded players which is getting ridiculous. There were flashes in the pan like Bagdhatis 2006. Now we get Lois Bosion making the SF or Reidi making R4. The usual suspects struggle just to hold a clean game. De Minaur looked shakey against a back-to-back 5 set player and everyone is like "oh this is normal now". It never has been.

The ranking system is becoming out of date and needs to incorporate this surge of challenger level players causing upsets.

Clearly, I'm still the only one wasting money. If you did you'd see how hard it is to throw anything down on Ruud or Tsitsipas or Tiafoe. It's becoming a joke.
As Novak stated - never underestimate guys in the 100-200 level.
Using struff as an example is also poor.
Some of these guys ranked low could be due to injury.
Some of these guys losing aren’t exactly 100% healthy.
And some of these guys ranked where they’re at could make a surge into the top 100 or higher and better than their actual ranking.

Earned but given. That’s the beauty of the sport. Appreciate it.
 
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