Point system - OVERHAUL
- Thread starter MrFlip
- Start date
MrFlip
Hall of Fame
#8 De Minaur loses to #42 Jodar
#12 Rublev loses to #62 Kopriva
#18 Paul loses to #75 Tirante
#6 Shelton loses to #87 Prizmic
#17 Vacherot loses to #116 Nava
#10 Mboko loses to #52 McNally
#38 Frech loses to #88 Sierra
Average ranking difference = 59
What a day of carnage. Good thing these players will remain unharmed thanks to the ranking system.
#12 Rublev loses to #62 Kopriva
#18 Paul loses to #75 Tirante
#6 Shelton loses to #87 Prizmic
#17 Vacherot loses to #116 Nava
#10 Mboko loses to #52 McNally
#38 Frech loses to #88 Sierra
Average ranking difference = 59
What a day of carnage. Good thing these players will remain unharmed thanks to the ranking system.
MrFlip
Hall of Fame
#35 Shapovalov loses to #140 Kjaer
#11 Bublik loses to #80 Tsitsipas LOL! (Peak modern ATP clown show)
#30 Moutet loses to #102 Merida
#21 Tien loses to #96 Vallejo
#32 Nakashima loses to #69 Blockx
Average ranking difference = 71
Where are we going to draw the line? Clearly, challenger players are just as good as the top 30. Hey lets just ride this out for the next 10 years. The trend has been increasing towards challenger players taking out higher ranked "more talented" players.
#11 Bublik loses to #80 Tsitsipas LOL! (Peak modern ATP clown show)
#30 Moutet loses to #102 Merida
#21 Tien loses to #96 Vallejo
#32 Nakashima loses to #69 Blockx
Average ranking difference = 71
Where are we going to draw the line? Clearly, challenger players are just as good as the top 30. Hey lets just ride this out for the next 10 years. The trend has been increasing towards challenger players taking out higher ranked "more talented" players.
helterskelter
G.O.A.T.
Another ludicrous result in Madrid:
world #80 Stefanos Tsitsipas has reached the last 16. OBSCENE for such a low-ranked journeyman to be making it on the big stage.
world #80 Stefanos Tsitsipas has reached the last 16. OBSCENE for such a low-ranked journeyman to be making it on the big stage.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
MrFlip
Hall of Fame
Because the ranking system put in place since forever means that Tiafoes can lose to Watanukis and still be a top 20 player.
If you told them you're gonna be out of the top 50 if you lose to this player come Tuesday, I would guarantee there might be an improvement in effort and consistency.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
The tennis rankings are not based on a bookies list of odds for an upcoming tournament, but on a rolling system that takes time for a player's ups and downs to show up.
I can't see the problem with this, perhaps, generous ranking system:
Tennis rankings (ATP for men, WTA for women) are based on a rolling 52-week, points-based system. Players accumulate points from their best 19 (ATP) or 16 (WTA) tournament results over the past year. Points expire after 52 weeks, requiring players to "defend" points by matching or improving on their performance at the same tournament the previous year.
Not only is not unfair, it adds to the excitement when a lower-rank player wins.
I can't see the problem with this, perhaps, generous ranking system:
Tennis rankings (ATP for men, WTA for women) are based on a rolling 52-week, points-based system. Players accumulate points from their best 19 (ATP) or 16 (WTA) tournament results over the past year. Points expire after 52 weeks, requiring players to "defend" points by matching or improving on their performance at the same tournament the previous year.
Not only is not unfair, it adds to the excitement when a lower-rank player wins.
Better_Call_Raul
Legend
Start fresh from January, 2026. A fresh new season. That is how every other sport operates.
A defending Super Bowl Champion could be in last place early in the season if they got off to a slow start.
The team would then be highly incentivized to win early in the season rather than resting on their laurels.
Use the ~Top 40 rankings from 2025 to seed the January tournaments and the Australian Open.
And kindly let the chips fall where they may from there.
Our apologies if this sensible logical out-of-the-box thinking offends anyone but only a dunderhead would think the current convoluted rankings system, which incentivizes laziness, is in any way acceptable.
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Bartelby
Bionic Poster
It's not a team sport and there is no fixed season for any individual player, you dunderhead!
Start fresh from January, 2026. A fresh new season. That is how every other sport operates.
A defending Super Bowl Champion could be in last place early in the season if they got off to a slow start.
The team would then be highly incentivized to win early in the season rather than resting on their laurels.
Use the ~Top 40 rankings from 2025 to seed the January tournaments and the Australian Open.
And kindly let the chips fall where they may from there.
Our apologies if this sensible logical out-of-the-box thinking offends anyone but only a dunderhead would think the current convoluted rankings system, which incentivizes laziness, is in any way acceptable.
Better_Call_Raul
Legend
Swing and a miss. January serves as the de facto start of the season.
If a player wishes to skip the start of the season, that is on them.
Kindly try again to address the flaws in our clever proposal.
Our proposal overcomes the heavy inertia of your silly 52-week rolling system.
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Bartelby
Bionic Poster
Individuals get injured, duh, clubs can always field a team.
A rolling system is fairer in individual sports.
A rolling system is fairer in individual sports.
Swing and a miss. January serves as the de facto start of the season.
If a player wishes to skip the start of the season, that is on them.
Kindly try again to address the flaws in our clever proposal.
Our proposal overcomes the heavy inertia of your silly 52-week rolling system.
Better_Call_Raul
Legend
If a player is injured, he deserves to lose ranking points immediately.
Also note that Djoker has played a grand total of 8 tournaments in 52 weeks and yet is #4 in the world, despite barely playing.
That is one tournament every six weeks. Ranked #4 while hardly playing for a year. Ridiculous.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
When Novak plays, he plays for the big points. Your complaints are baseless.
More importantly, your alternative is far worse for players given your views on injury.
Fortunately, the authorities are not such dunderheads to embrace bad alternatives.
More importantly, your alternative is far worse for players given your views on injury.
Fortunately, the authorities are not such dunderheads to embrace bad alternatives.
a10best
Legend
Jodar moves up approx. 80-120 points due to Barcelona 500 and Madrid QF. At IW, Miami, AO he lost very early R1, R2.
Blockx moves up 70 points for SF showing in Madrid but at IW and Miami lost in the qualies.
2 deeper runs by each in their last two tournies move them up that much? I am not aware of the intracacies. Blockx did have some solid wins.
Blockx moves up 70 points for SF showing in Madrid but at IW and Miami lost in the qualies.
2 deeper runs by each in their last two tournies move them up that much? I am not aware of the intracacies. Blockx did have some solid wins.
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ghostofMecir
Legend
Yes, it moves them up “that much” because it is very difficult for players to win that many matches on tour because for the great majority of players, it’s a 50-50 proposition every time they’re out there.
ChrisJR3264
Legend
Whole heartedly disagree on players losing points due to injury.
Holger rune was what 11-12 in the world when he tore his Achilles?
He couldn’t defend any of his points from AO to Barcelona which was well over 1100 points.
Why does that go against him due to a severe injury preventing him from competing?
a10best
Legend
it still makes no sense to me.
Both of them had terrible Jan, Feb. and March at 4 hc tournaments and 2-3 deep runs at clay tournaments in April skyrocket them into the top 30 to 40.
ghostofMecir
Legend
Most players have 50-50 results every month so if you can make a run at any tournament, you are better than most players because it is so very difficult to be more than a 50-50 player in the sport
a10best
Legend
Well, they had no points to defend at all losing early at AO, IW, Miami and another HC tournament.
So, they are tour rookies who play well on clay with Alcaraz, Djokovic, and Americans out.
A player only loses points when the points falling off from 52 weeks ago are greater than the points he earns in the same period now.
cha cha
Hall of Fame
Let me help you make sense of it.
There are thousands of aspiring professionals around the world who will spend decades playing tennis and will never qualify for a single Masters 1000 event.
Having a deep run at one of those and earning hundreds of ATP points is an achievement of a lifetime.
We take it for granted because we are weekend warriors who know very little about actual tennis.
cha cha
Hall of Fame
If Usain Bolt tears his achilles and fails to qualify for the Olympics, are we still gonna let him start because he's so good when he's healthy?
ghostofMecir
Legend
This.
a10best
Legend
Ranked #42 for a 500 final and QF 1000 played on clay, 1x/year, one month. It's very likely Blockx and Jodar's grass and HC performances from July onwards will be similar to Jan-March, abysmal.
Jodar is literally just 17 points behind Fils who has gone deeper at all tournaments, hc loss at Doha to Alcaraz and won Barcelona over Jodar.
Common sense says the point system is wrong whether a weekend warrior, or active 4-5 days a week (as I am), rain or no rain.
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ghostofMecir
Legend
How can the system be “wrong” if there isn’t a “true” ranking independent of the current ranking that is known? Betting odds are the closest thing to whom we think is a currently a better player compared to others.
a10best
Legend
I will lose the debate today but the point system should & will be overhauled and most likely factor in "current performance" bad & good within the calendar year more than using the past 12 months as the only measurement. This will hurt a player's ranking, ranked 42, when they lose early in rounds 1 to 3 in all M1000s or slams.
One should not benefit after losing in R1-R3 because they didn't play the previous year and gain points.
if you didn't play a tournament the year before, any wins should be 50-75% of the points given subject to your overall performance with the current calendar year.
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ChrisJR3264
Legend
Completely different pal.
cha cha
Hall of Fame
Why does that go against him due to a severe injury, bro?
cha cha
Hall of Fame
On a serious note, I have no horse here.
I could not care less about who's on top of the sport as long as they play pretty.
Neither do I care about the author of the thread, an obvious gambler betting CVS receipts moaning about underdogs ruining them.
The only reason I post here is because it's comical to me to claim that a point system is unjust because an injured player can't keep their spot because they can't play.
* What would be fair to Rune, by the way?
Keeping him at no. 11?
For how long?
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ChrisJR3264
Legend
Losing points. People can still jump you. I just think it’s absurd that you can’t perform bc you have a serious injury. Most players play through injuries consistently to defend points.
There’s a protected ranking rule in place but you’re only allowed 5 tournaments to use it to get points back.
I think those rules for guys who have serious injuries need to change.
Even betting odds aren't a great measurement. If a lower ranked player is favoured to beat a higher ranked player it means that they're favoured to win that match. It doesn't necessarily mean they're considered a better player. It can mean the circumstances in which the match is being played suit the lower ranked player. A player's performance over a rolling 12 month cycle, as provided by the current system is a very reasonable and fair meaaurement of ranking. If a player's current performance is below (or above) their ranking, you rarely need to wait long for it to correct.
MrFlip
Hall of Fame
#22 Tiafoe loses to #155 Pellegrino
#8 De Minaur loses to #106 Arnaldi
#26 Etcheverry loses to #80 Bellucci
#5 FAA loses to #44 Navone
#12 Cabolli loses to #69 Tirante
#34 Joint loses to #90 Golubic
#1 Sabalenka loses to #28 Cirstea
#17 Keys loses to #94 Bartunkova
Average ranking difference = 67
Not bad, not bad
#8 De Minaur loses to #106 Arnaldi
#26 Etcheverry loses to #80 Bellucci
#5 FAA loses to #44 Navone
#12 Cabolli loses to #69 Tirante
#34 Joint loses to #90 Golubic
#1 Sabalenka loses to #28 Cirstea
#17 Keys loses to #94 Bartunkova
Average ranking difference = 67
Not bad, not bad
LuckyR
Legend
Uummm... if everyone is losing once in a while to a much lower ranked player, who's supposed to move up if they're dropping because of the upset? Someone ranked just below them... who probably lost to a much lower ranked player 2 tournaments ago. Basically, if everyone's doing it, it's normal.
I feel like utr rating is more accurate measure of level,especially the 3 month trend for current form.
Sometimes a lucky draw can bump up your ranking or just playing more tournaments than someone else.
But i still think the current atp ranking is fair enough for determining the seeds.
Sometimes a lucky draw can bump up your ranking or just playing more tournaments than someone else.
But i still think the current atp ranking is fair enough for determining the seeds.
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hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
There’s your answer.
MrFlip
Hall of Fame
Yes and no.
Up and down sure.
Tiafoes, Nakashimas, Sheltons losing to much much much lower ranked players enough times in a year, they only maintain their ranking because of the inconsistency across the board to keep them from dropping immediately? yes.
Sometimes you'd almost say that these current ranking positions mean nothing
LuckyR
Legend
Now you get it. The rankings mean nothing. That's why they actually play the matches.
It's all about prize money... and maybe trophies.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
I’m not sure what the point of this thread is?
Is this the official upset tracker?
Is this the official upset tracker?
Curtennis
Hall of Fame
It absolutely is.
They play way more matches now, so you’re going to see it more as well.
The top 1000 is far more competitive than it was during any other era.
MrFlip
Hall of Fame
Don't disagree with that, clearly the results speak for itself.
I've done a 180 but my point still remains that the current ranking system doesn't reflect the lack of depth or lack of distance between #10 and #100 now
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
#20 Cam Norrie, who has taken down Alcaraz on clay, is an underdog in the odds tomorrow to #71 ranked unknown Paraguayan Dani Vallejo.
Does this mean we have a problem?
Does this mean we have a problem?
MrFlip
Hall of Fame
Sometimes broken clock is right
MrFlip
Hall of Fame
#52 Atmane loses to #854 Kokkinakis - after playing barely any matches between 2025 and now, returning from shoulder injury, being down 3-5 in the 5th.....Kokkinakis won....
#14 Alexandrova loses to #86 Osorio - perfect example of the ranking system not accounting for form. Alexandrova been on a death spiral last 6 months
#20 Samsonova loses to #170 Tiechmann - to reiterate - somehow Samsonova maintains position in top 20 despite consistent losses early rounds in WTA and Slam events...
#33 Bucsa loses to #215 Bendecchi - LOL - nothing to see here folks - routine WTA loss.
Clearly the ranking system doesn't reflect form, which is strange because you're only as good as your ranking right?
#14 Alexandrova loses to #86 Osorio - perfect example of the ranking system not accounting for form. Alexandrova been on a death spiral last 6 months
#20 Samsonova loses to #170 Tiechmann - to reiterate - somehow Samsonova maintains position in top 20 despite consistent losses early rounds in WTA and Slam events...
#33 Bucsa loses to #215 Bendecchi - LOL - nothing to see here folks - routine WTA loss.
Clearly the ranking system doesn't reflect form, which is strange because you're only as good as your ranking right?
RSJfan
Legend
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