[Poll] How long should Jannik Sinner be suspended?

[socallefty]

If you let off a player as having no liability when members of his team do negligent things that cause a player to fail drug tests, then you are setting up a system where a player’s team will help him dope by supposed negligent (rather than intentional) acting and the player can get away by claiming ignorance of his team’s intentional acts. Team members get to earn a lot of money and prestige in their profession as physios/coaches if their player wins a lot - so they are very motivated to help a player cheat whether the player wants to or not.

Also drug test levels for failing are set up to be outside the far limits of the normal range for athletes and it can be quite a bit higher than the average or typical levels of a drug or hormone of most players. For instance if most humans will be at a level of 4-6 for some tested substance, but there can be some humans with naturally occurring levels in the 8-10 range, the minimum level for failing the drug test will be set at 11. This is where microdosing comes in to elevate a player’s naturally occurring level of 4-6 to close to 10, but stay below the test failure level - actually what is done is that they might even microdose to take it above a test’s failure level but will depend on the substance coming below the failure level very quickly after the competition especially when masked with another substance. This is rampant in pro/Olympic sports according to players/coaches I know and hard to police - it is naive to think that a player doesn’t dope especially with microdosing because he never failed tests previously as this kind of microdosing can be masked or comes to normal within hours. It becomes impossible to run a clean sport if a player’s team can claim negligence instead of intention for their actions and a player can also claim ignorance about his team’s actions.

If a player’s team can help a player dope with a prepared alibi for negligence rather than intention and then a player can claim ignorance, the system becomes easily corruptible. I think that is why WADA is appealing as they think Sinner should be be liable for suspension even if you believe the story that it was only his team that was negligent. Tennis already makes it easy to dope because the locker room rumor is that tests are not random for top players and they are informed of when they will be tested in advance. Especially with off-season and out-of-tournament doping, this can be a big help to never fail tests.

 

[nolefam_2024]

1 to 3 months is enough

So we can put this to bed. What a horrible situation

 

[Bartelby]

All the opinions are minority ones. 61% are for a ban, so that's a big majority.

That implies that this is a minority opinion.

 

[Sudacafan]

I am not against Sinner, I just want equality.
Either Sinner is suspended, or all other clostebol bans are immediately lifted.

 

[KingCarlitos]

I am not against Sinner, I just want equality.
Either Sinner is suspended, or all other clostebol bans are immediately lifted.

Unfortunately, Equality is sparse in this world.

 

[Nate7-5]

Already proved he doesnt need performance enhancers by winning the U.S. Open Was getting tested like crazy around then no doubt

 

[Bartelby]

Regardless of what CAS decides on the Sinner case, whether favourable or unfavourable to him, this will constitute a precedent that will ensure "equality of treatment" of like cases.

 

[travlerajm]

Regardless of what CAS decides on the Sinner case, whether favourable or unfavourable to him, this will constitute a precedent that will ensure "equality of treatment" of like cases.

I personally think they need to up the punishment scale.

There needs to be a big enough deterrent, otherwise it’s a slippery slope just like American baseball and cycling.

 

[Bartelby]

There does seem to be a "doping cream" problem in Italy.

 

[Tano]

None. I value my entertainment over tennis morals. Call me selfish.

Without Sinner, Alcaraz would have a clear path to winning the Grand Slam.

 

[tudwell]

I'd be fine with no ban or something short, in the 1-3 months range. More than that feels excessive. At the end of the day, I buy Sinner's camp's explanation. I mean, it is a bit hard to believe that a) his trainer was just willfully traveling with a banned substance and b) he gave that banned substance to Sinner's physio for a cut on his finger knowing full well that the physio would be providing Sinner frequent massages, and maybe most of all c) Sinner's physio didn't even check what the active ingredient is in the spray he was using on his finger. That last bit goes way beyond doping – Sinner apparently has some kind of psoriasis. You'd think his physio would be careful about what products he administers to Jannik, since I imagine his skin is more easily inflamed and also the sores the psoriasis produces allow for easier transmission of things that Sinner might be allergic to, etc. Just pure idiocy on Naldi's part if he genuinely had no idea the spray contained clostebol.

On the other hand, I haven't really heard an alternative explanation that makes more sense. (But then, I don't really know much about doping regimens and whether it's at all reasonable for clostebol to be used in micro-doses or as a masking agent or whatever.)

 

[Sudacafan]

Regardless of what CAS decides on the Sinner case, whether favourable or unfavourable to him, this will constitute a precedent that will ensure "equality of treatment" of like cases.

#FreeClostebolMassagesToThePeople

 

[NaDjoFed]

On the other hand, this epidemic of cases is itself suspicious and makes further accidental usage implausible. No one was using Meldonium 4 weeks after Sharapova got pinged.

I do not know if this is suspicious since there is no evidence of any improvement in performance. It is sold just in Italy, pretty obvious most of Clostebol cases are found in that country. If you test the general population you will find hundred of thousand of doped pensioners and housewives since this is a cream/spray sold without prescription in all pharmacies.

I may buy one and try before my Wednesday tennis match with friends and tell you if it helped (I lived a few km from the border)

 

[RSJfan]

Without Sinner, Alcaraz would have a clear path to winning the Grand Slam.

He would have to get passed Botic.

 

[Bartelby]

Usage could just be linked to the perception of an improvement in performance. Finding evidence of improvement is also completely irrelevant to a doping charge. If the substance is banned, you are liable.

I do not know if this is suspicious since there is no evidence of any improvement in performance. It is sold just in Italy, pretty obvious most of Clostebol cases are found in that country. If you test the general population you will find hundred of thousand of doped pensioners and housewives since this is a cream/spray sold without prescription in all pharmacies.

I may buy one and try before my Wednesday tennis match with friends and tell you if it helped (I lived a few km from the border)

 

[RSJfan]

Is there a process in the TTW Code that this topic could be suspended for 1-2 years. Or at least suspended until CAS rules (and whichever way it goes TTW outrage ensues). It’s the same clowns experts repetitive posting. It detracts from Raul’s important EV series.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

There’s no secret that Jannik Sinner loves Italy and fast cars.
With Enzo Ferrari’s Modena complex practically in his backyard, Sinner made a celebrity visit to the home of the Prancing Horse to experience some of Ferrari’s top supercars.

 

[nolefam_2024]

There’s no secret that Jannik Sinner loves Italy and fast cars.
With Enzo Ferrari’s Modena complex practically in his backyard, Sinner made a celebrity visit to the home of the Prancing Horse to experience some of Ferrari’s top supercars.

Fast enough to run away from testers

 

[RSJfan]

I am not against Sinner, I just want equality.
Either Sinner is suspended, or all other clostebol bans are immediately lifted.

Sounds commie.

The ATP/WTA should fund a defense fund for players so even the #300 doper has access to high quality and timely defense just like the #1 doper has. But each case should rest on its own merits which would take into account all relevant facts including the players ranking and the interest of other stakeholders (like the interest of tennis generally) so the #1 doper may not be suspended unless a minimum of three unbiased and unrelated witnesses observe the doping episode.

I trust all this will meet your definition of fair.

 

[UnderArmServeOP]

The rule basically says illegal substance = 2yr ban (minimum). Just because he is the poster child of the ATP rn doesn’t mean he should get exceptions. So many other players have been screwed over because of this system even though they were found not guilty afterwards. The immediate ban took away precious time form them. Halep is PRIME example.

 

[jeroenn]

The rule basically says illegal substance = 2yr ban (minimum).

Which rule is that? Any source? Are there any exceptions defined? Mitigating circumstances?

ITIA claimed it followed WADA rules...

WADA seeks 1 to 2 years, which seems to at least partially disagree with your statement of miminum 2 year ban. Let's see the rulebook please?

 

[Bartelby]

The rule is four years for intentional use and up to two for unintentional.

Punishment, however, does allow for mitigating circumstances.

The ITIA sends the case off to a Tribunal. It does not make a decision.

The minimum is one year plus mitigating factors.

So anywhere between 6 and 9 months was a fair and just suspension.

No suspension just basically wrecks the system of doping control.

Which rule is that? Any source? Are there any exceptions defined? Mitigating circumstances?

ITIA claimed it followed WADA rules...

WADA seeks 1 to 2 years, which seems to at least partially disagree with your statement of miminum 2 year ban. Let's see the rulebook please?

 

[jeroenn]

The rule is four years for intentional use and up to two for unintentional.

Punishment, however, does allow for mitigating circumstances.

The ITIA sends the case off to a Tribunal. It does not make a decision.

The minimum is one year plus mitigating factors.

So anywhere between 6 and 9 months was a fair and just suspension.

No suspension just basically wrecks the system of doping control.

Again, let's see the actual rules. How are the mitigating factors weighed? Which are taken in consideration and which are not? Why would the reasoning as presented in the ITIA document be faulty?

Why would no suspension 'wreck' the system of doping control? What would break? How?
What is the basis for this claim?

 

[jeroenn]

Also, WADA didn't appeal Bortolotti 'No fault or neglience' case. So there is precedent set. How does this rhymes with your statements?

 

[RSJfan]

Again, let's see the actual rules…

No need to ride the merry-go-round of this thread. The rules are readily available for your review. Or I can save you the time. No, “the rules don’t basically say that.” It depends on the degree of fault. And the fact finder gets to determine the degree of fault which determines the penalty. If WADA doesn’t like what it found it can go to another fact finder called CAS.
===

See Code sections 10.5 (no fault or negligence) 10.6 (no significant fault or negligence) and 10.7 (reduction for diming on people ) for the rules relating to reducing an otherwise 2-year penalty, including down to zero.

10.5 Elimination of the Period of Ineligibility where there is No Fault or Negligence

If an Athlete or other Person establishes in an individual case that he or she bears No Fault or Negligence, then the otherwise applicable period of Ineligibility shall be eliminated.

 

[jeroenn]

No need to ride the merry-go-round of this thread. The rules are readily available for your review. Or I can save you the time. No, “the rules don’t basically say that.” It depends on the degree of fault. And the fact finder gets to determine the degree of fault which determines the penalty. If WADA doesn’t like what it found it can go to another fact finder called CAS.

Indeed.

Poster seemed to be sure of himself, so maybe he was looking at a different set of rules.

 

[UnderArmServeOP]

Again, let's see the actual rules. How are the mitigating factors weighed? Which are taken in consideration and which are not? Why would the reasoning as presented in the ITIA document be faulty?

Why would no suspension 'wreck' the system of doping control? What would break? How?
What is the basis for this claim?

Thanks for the correction but my point still stands

 

[Bartelby]

Mitigating factors depends on the assessment made on the facts of the case, so there is no automatic template to be consulted.

Doping control is based on strict liability, so testing positive twice for a banned substance makes you liable for some punishment.

Again, let's see the actual rules. How are the mitigating factors weighed? Which are taken in consideration and which are not? Why would the reasoning as presented in the ITIA document be faulty?

Why would no suspension 'wreck' the system of doping control? What would break? How?
What is the basis for this claim?

 

[Bartelby]

They should have appealed it, but all this means is that taking the Skinner case to CAS is the best option for everyone.

Also, WADA didn't appeal Bortolotti 'No fault or neglience' case. So there is precedent set. How does this rhymes with your statements?

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

Also, WADA didn't appeal Bortolotti 'No fault or neglience' case. So there is precedent set. How does this rhymes with your statements?

The two cases appear to be very similar. Although the means of involuntary contamination of Bortolotti has not been publicly disclosed.
Yet WADA chose not to appeal the Bortolotti "no fault, no suspension" decision but is choosing to appeal the Sinner decision.
Why is WADA selectively targeting the young #1 ranked Sinner?

On October 4, 2023, Bortolotti provided an in-competition urine sample at an ATP Challenger event in Lisbon, Portugal, which tested positive for clostebol.​

Bortolotti was charged with Anti-Doping Rule Violations on February 2, 2024.​

​

The player accepted that clostebol was present in his sample but provided an explanation, asserting he did not intend to cheat and did not knowingly ingest the substance.​

​

Bortolotti presented evidence of involuntary contamination. The WADA-accredited laboratory in Montreal confirmed that his explanation was credible based on scientific calculations and literature. The International Tennis Integrity Agency (ITIA) accepted that Bortolotti established the source of the clostebol metabolite and that he could not reasonably have been expected to take further precautions.​

​

The ITIA ruled that Bortolotti bore No Fault or Negligence for the Adverse Analytical Finding.​

​

Result:​

​

Bortolotti was not subject to any period of ineligibility.​

No provisional suspension was imposed due to his prompt explanation and timely validation from scientific experts.​

The case was resolved in about two months, from late November 2023 to February 2024.​

​

Bortolotti's case was made public only after the process was concluded, similar to the handling of Jannik Sinner's case.​

 

[Sudacafan]

The two cases appear to be very similar. Although the means of involuntary contamination of Bortolotti has not been publicly disclosed.
Yet WADA chose not to appeal the Bortolotti "no fault, no suspension" decision but is choosing to appeal the Sinner decision.
Why is WADA selectively targeting the young #1 ranked Sinner?

On October 4, 2023, Bortolotti provided an in-competition urine sample at an ATP Challenger event in Lisbon, Portugal, which tested positive for clostebol.​

Bortolotti was charged with Anti-Doping Rule Violations on February 2, 2024.​

​

The player accepted that clostebol was present in his sample but provided an explanation, asserting he did not intend to cheat and did not knowingly ingest the substance.​

​

Bortolotti presented evidence of involuntary contamination. The WADA-accredited laboratory in Montreal confirmed that his explanation was credible based on scientific calculations and literature. The International Tennis Integrity Agency (ITIA) accepted that Bortolotti established the source of the clostebol metabolite and that he could not reasonably have been expected to take further precautions.​

​

The ITIA ruled that Bortolotti bore No Fault or Negligence for the Adverse Analytical Finding.​

​

Result:​

​

Bortolotti was not subject to any period of ineligibility.​

No provisional suspension was imposed due to his prompt explanation and timely validation from scientific experts.​

The case was resolved in about two months, from late November 2023 to February 2024.​

​

Bortolotti's case was made public only after the process was concluded, similar to the handling of Jannik Sinner's case.​

And what happened to Battaglini?

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

They should have appealed it, but all this means is that taking the Skinner case to CAS is the best option for everyone.

It is not the best option. It is unequal treatment.

Your favourite WADA had better be prepared to explain before the CAS why it chose to sit on its hands on the Bortolotti decision!

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Do you ever miss the time you were a Covid "expert?" What about the month you became an "expert" on Australian immigration laws?

...do not forget, he's the #1 apologist for Russia's sports program, the most corrupt in the world, a program exposed over and over again:

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...oops-at-high-altitudes-in-afghanistan.560907/

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

And what happened to Battaglini?

Battaglini also claimed involuntary contamination of clostebol through his physio. But the investigation was not able to locate and question the physio.
The Tribunal banned Battaglini for 4 years and the CAS upheld the banishment on appeal.

 

[Bartelby]

Court cases are expensive so they are rarely undertaken. CAS did not make the Bortolotti decision and is not bound by it.

It is not the best option. It is unequal treatment.

Your favourite WADA better be prepared to explain before the CAS why it chose to sit on its hands on the Bortolotti decision!

 

[Bartelby]

The customary Russophobia has now been replaced by Sinophobia with the Peng Shuai and Chinese swimmers case, so please keep up!

...do not forget, he's the #1 apologist for Russia's sports program, the most corrupt in the world, a program exposed over and over again:

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...oops-at-high-altitudes-in-afghanistan.560907/

 

[Bartelby]

The physio involved was the tournament physio so they did find him. He was either unwilling to give evidence or denied using any banned substance, depending on what you read.

Battaglini also claimed involuntary contamination of clostebol through his physio. But the investigation was not able to locate and question the physio.
The Tribunal banned Battaglini for 4 years and the CAS upheld the banishment on appeal.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

Court cases are expensive so they are rarely undertaken. CAS did not make the Bortolotti decision and is not bound by it.

It is the WADA's job to review that all decisions are in compliance with its doping code and WADA chose not to appeal the Bortolotti case.
WADA had better be prepared to explain before the CAS why there are two cases with essentially identical facts but WADA is appealing only one of them.

 

[Bartelby]

The Battaglini case occurred in Morocco where the Italian Tiramisu Special is not available over the counter and unlikely to be used by a tournament physio. In other words, Battaglini brought it with him.

 

[Bartelby]

They have to argue the Sinner case only.

It is the WADA's job to review that all decisions are in compliance with its doping code and WADA chose not to appeal the Bortolotti case.
WADA had better be prepared to explain before the CAS why there are two cases with essentially identical facts but WADA is appealing only one of them.

 

[vokazu]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1842209776953856426

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

They have to argue the Sinner case only.

WADA has an oversight role. WADA reviewed the Bortolotti colestebol case and chose NOT to appeal the Bortolotti exoneration.
The Sinner defense will say that Bortolotti's case set an informal precedent for how similar cases should be handled.
Your favourite WADA had better have an explanation for the double standard!

 

[Bartelby]

A Tribunal is not a court of law. It's a form of private arbitration. It can set no precedent.

WADA has an oversight role. WADA reviewed the Bortolotti colestebol case and chose NOT to appeal the Bortolotti exoneration.
The Sinner defense will say that Bortolotti's case set a precedent for how such cases should be handled.
Your favourite WADA had better have an explanation for the double standard!

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

A Tribunal is not a court of law. It's a form of private arbitration. It can set no precedent.

Sinner will point out that Bortolitti received no suspension for involuntary contamination of colestebol and WADA was fine with the decision. No appeal to CAS.
There is an expectation of equal treatment for cases with similar facts. WADA will indeed have to explain itself.

 

[Bartelby]

Presumably they will argue that both cases were decided incorrectly if asked, and that clarification is the reason for the appeal.

Sinner will point out that Bortolitti received no suspension for involuntary contamination of colestebol and WADA was fine with the decision. No appeal to CAS.
There is an expectation of equal treatment for cases with similar facts. WADA will indeed have to explain itself.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

Presumably they will argue that both cases were decided incorrectly if asked, and that clarification is the reason for the appeal.

Presumably Bortolitti is in the clear and cannot be banned.
Now it will lead to a situation where Bortolitti has been exonerated and Sinner banned. Unequal treatment.

 

[RSJfan]

There’s no secret that Jannik Sinner loves Italy and fast cars.
With Enzo Ferrari’s Modena complex practically in his backyard, Sinner made a celebrity visit to the home of the Prancing Horse to experience some of Ferrari’s top supercars.

There’s no secret that many people love Italy and fast cars including my fav Raul and me and would jump at the chance to make such a visit though you prefer the cars to use batteries instead of good old American gas.

I saw the red beauty below last week. Owner said the engine is so big and puts out so much heat that they like to cool it down after a ride. Maybe they just like to show it off.

It would be a shame if extremists like my fav Raul help cause the demise in producing these marvelous machines. Though you will be happy to learn that Ferrari is moving to hybrid and electric. Your fav EU overlords are pushing an already eager Ferrari company to move to electric with EU mandated emission standards.

”the [Ferrari] company would commence full-scale electric vehicle production by early 2026. By 2030, electric and hybrid cars will make up as much as 80 percent of Ferrari’s annual output as the company seeks to meet stringent European Union emissions mandates.”

As the E.V. Revolution Slows, Ferrari Enters the Race

Growth in electric vehicle sales has been slowing, but the Italian luxury carmaker is stepping up investment and setting ambitious targets.

www.nytimes.com

 

[RSJfan]

And what happened to Battaglini?

And what happened to Tiramisu. I don’t find it on menus as frequently these days. Silent ban?

FYI, Wayne Odesnik will be eligible to rejoin the tour on Jan. 30, 2030.

 

[Bartelby]

Sinnerbol will be creamed by CAS!

 

[Sudacafan]

It's impressive how things changed after the WADA appeal!

A week passed, and from "case closed", now we are almost certain that Sinner will be found guilty, and we are asking ourselves how long his ban should be. Interesting.

Next week, I think we'll see threads asking something of the sort as: if found guilty, should Sinner be incarcerated?