[POLL] If Nadal hadn't existed, would 2015-2016 have been the norm for Djokovic on clay?

[RS]

Hypothetical time frame. lol

Well that's what it is

 

[adil1972]

Can we have seperate forum for If Then Else plz

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Well that's what it is

 

[Biotic]

Nadal was the only thing keeping this field from being the worst of all time

Saying that the clay field Nadal was beating all these years is the worst of all time sounds harsh, even if not necessarily untrue.

 

[junior74]

Would 2015-2016 have been the norm?

Choking vs. Stan in 2015 and beating clay god Murray in 2016 is the sign of the GOAT?

He was at no point remotely close to a winning position. Got outplayed.

 

[Jonas78]

Nadal ruined both Nole and Rogers reputation on clay

 

[Third Serve]

Saying that the clay field Nadal was beating all these years is the worst of all time sounds harsh, even if not necessarily untrue.

Indeed, Nadal didn’t have a very tough clay field. Don’t think it really makes a huge difference considering how good he was most of the time though. It likely inflates his post-prime numbers but then again he’s not the only one to whom that would apply.

 

[Martin J]

Nadal ruined both Nole and Rogers reputation on clay

Nadal actually saved us from having two 4-6-time FO champions who, essentially, aren't clay courters nor play like ones and from endless praising and statements how we've finally gotten new Borgs. Many would disagree, but IMO the clay competition quality significantly decreased after 2005, when crafty clay courters heavily declined (for one reason or another), which is the main reason why both Djoko and Fed have been able to achieve the hall-of-fame status on dirt.

 

[Jonas78]

Nadal actually saved us from having two 4-6-time FO champions who, essentially, aren't clay courters nor play like ones and from endless praising and statements how we've finally gotten new Borgs. Many would disagree, but IMO the clay competition quality significantly decreased after 2005, when crafty clay courters heavily declined (for one reason or another), which is the main reason why both Djoko and Fed have been able to achieve the hall-of-fame status on dirt.

Being a fan of Roger its hard to agree

 

[The Blond Blur]

Saying that the clay field Nadal was beating all these years is the worst of all time sounds harsh, even if not necessarily untrue.

He’d wreck both of the guys in your avatar

 

[RS]

Seriously a fantastic actor. lol

 

[SonnyT]

No. Djokovic is the player he is in large part due to Federer and Nadal, and the clay courter he is largely due to Nadal. Without Nadal he would not be as good and not win all the hypothetical titles (7 or 8 max as it is) without Nadal. And without Nadal, it would be hands down the worst clay field in history, it is a terrible one as it is even with Nadal and Djokovic both in it, and his acheivements would at best be roughly on par with Borg but in a 10 times worse field, and with Borg retiring at 26. Pretty easy to see who would still be considered superior of those two.

Agreed 100%!

Furthermore, Federer wouldn't be the player he was w/o Nadal & Djokovic! Nadal wouldn't be the player w/o Federer & Djokovic!

 

[Biotic]

Indeed, Nadal didn’t have a very tough clay field. Don’t think it really makes a huge difference considering how good he was most of the time though. It likely inflates his post-prime numbers but then again he’s not the only one to whom that would apply.

Oh, I'm sure everyone would be happy to put themselves in a position to inflate their numbers on clay. Especially those who already did so on other surfaces, while worrying only about Nadal on clay.

 

[CoolCoolCool]

He'd probably have like 9 RG titles without Rafa, so yes, he'd be the clay GOAT. I know there's the butterfly effect to take into account, but he was really good on clay in the beginning of his career, he was a natural on that surface. I think people tend to underrate him because of how ridiculously good Rafa was on clay.

 

[insideoutforehanders]

Agreed 100%!

Furthermore, Federer wouldn't be the player he was w/o Nadal & Djokovic! Nadal wouldn't be the player w/o Federer & Djokovic!

100%

 

[insideoutforehanders]

Nadal actually saved us from having two 4-6-time FO champions who, essentially, aren't clay courters nor play like ones and from endless praising and statements how we've finally gotten new Borgs. Many would disagree, but IMO the clay competition quality significantly decreased after 2005, when crafty clay courters heavily declined (for one reason or another), which is the main reason why both Djoko and Fed have been able to achieve the hall-of-fame status on dirt.

Yes there are many eras Djokovic and Federer both max out at 2 RG titles each, maybe even 1 apiece in some eras (granted that is more than Fed has now only due to Nadal and getting way more of prime Nadal than Djokovic got). Both would be great clay counters in any era, but not necessarily legendary. The fact someone is even speculating on Djokovic winning 9 RG titles without Nadal just shows what an abysmal weak clay period the last 20 years has largely been, especially the last 15. There is no planet Djokovic is a 9 RG caliber clay player, sorry Djokovic fans.

 

[FlyingSaucer]

we, nole fans, like to stand in the real world. it is pretty satisfying like it is. we don't need any hypothetical parallel universes. and, our guy is pretty bad in those hypothetical matches anyway that every poll with such tema can show. let fedals fans have their hipotetikal wins and titles we can stick to the real ones. it is just fine as it is.

You live in the hypothetical realm more than most Djoker fans though, which is why you frequently refer to asterisked titles and records and a not-held edition of Wimbledon.

 

[nolefam_2024]

You live in the hypothetical realm more than most Djoker fans though, which is why you frequently refer to asterisked titles and records and a not-held edition of Wimbledon.

That is not hypothetical world

The gap between nole and fed is SO close. So close. That this window where he was not allowed to play matters to us.

This is not same as removing Nadal. We nolefams are not cowards. At least I used to wait for new rg matches between Rafa and Nole each year and just last year in 2024 didn't want them to meet as Rafa was broken body man.

Add everyone , he was still overwhelming fav in 2020.

 

[FlyingSaucer]

That is not hypothetical world

The gap between nole and fed is SO close. So close. That this window where he was not allowed to play matters to us.

This is not same as removing Nadal. We nolefams are not cowards. At least I used to wait for new rg matches between Rafa and Nole each year and just last year in 2024 didn't want them to meet as Rafa was broken body man.

Add everyone , he was still overwhelming fav in 2020.

The only reason to caveat titles with an asterisk is to suggest that some hypothetical alternative is the reality that didn't have the chance to occur.

Djokovic was not actually barred from playing tournaments, is my understanding.

 

[nolefam_2024]

The only reason to caveat titles with an asterisk is to suggest that some hypothetical alternative is the reality that didn't have the chance to occur.

Djokovic was not actually barred from playing tournaments, is my understanding.

Your understanding is first wrong. He was.

Now moving to Wimbledon, no one was banned the tournament was cancelled.

 

[RS]

Oh, I'm sure everyone would be happy to put themselves in a position to inflate their numbers on clay. Especially those who already did so on other surfaces, while worrying only about Nadal on clay.

Are you referring to Federer here?

 

[FlyingSaucer]

Your understanding is first wrong. He was.

My understanding is that he did not meet entry requirements for various countries.

Now moving to Wimbledon, no one was banned the tournament was cancelled.

Yes, I know.

 

[nolefam_2024]

My understanding is that he did not meet entry requirements for various countries.


Yes, I know.

Again there is grey area. He met requirements for Australia. Public uproar pushed him out. Other players who met this were allowed and were not deported.

 

[FlyingSaucer]

Again there is grey area. He met requirements for Australia. Public uproar pushed him out. Other players who met this were allowed and were not deported.

AO 2022 is fair enough where this is argument is concerned.

Nadal still won it fair and square, though.

 

[nolefam_2024]

AO 2022 is fair enough where this is argument is concerned.

Nadal still won it fair and square, though.

Nadal is his rival, very close to the only rival that matters.

To throw nole out and then Nadal winning it when he didn't even win a set before , we are never backing down.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Anyway this is not what op is about. We nolefams don't want handouts. Djokovic won 3. I was even happy with 2 but anything less would seem grave injustice considering his resume outside rg on clay.

Today we are happy with 3 and I would be first to say that 3 is very beatable. I would like raz to surpass him easily but not sinner here in rg.

 

[Biotic]

Are you referring to Federer here?

No. I'm clearly referring to some other players.

 

[GoatNo1]

You live in the hypothetical realm more than most Djoker fans though, which is why you frequently refer to asterisked titles and records and a not-held edition of Wimbledon.

not hold W20 is fact as well as no points for W22 and as * AO22 with political deportation of biggest favorit that won last 9 HC matches and last 19 HC sets vs AO22 champion!

 

[Martin J]

Yes there are many eras Djokovic and Federer both max out at 2 RG titles each, maybe even 1 apiece in some eras (granted that is more than Fed has now only due to Nadal and getting way more of prime Nadal than Djokovic got). Both would be great clay counters in any era, but not necessarily legendary. The fact someone is even speculating on Djokovic winning 9 RG titles without Nadal just shows what an abysmal weak clay period the last 20 years has largely been, especially the last 15. There is no planet Djokovic is a 9 RG caliber clay player, sorry Djokovic fans.

I believe that the lack of natural surface specialists in the last 20+ years affected spectators' judgement and perception when it comes to players' all-surface abilities, especially when thinking about the top dogs.

Yeah, Djoko winning 9 RG titles is a crazy assumption for sure.

 

[FlyingSaucer]

not hold W20 is fact as well as no points for W22 and as * AO22 with political deportation of biggest favorit that won last 9 HC matches and last 19 HC sets vs AO22 champion!

Thanks for the confirmation.

Nadal is his rival, very close to the only rival that matters.

To throw nole out and then Nadal winning it when he didn't even win a set before , we are never backing down.

He had seven opponents and beat them all to win the title.

 

[GoatNo1]

Thanks for the confirmation.


He had seven opponents and beat them all to win the title.

he and his fans was very happy with deportation and W points removal as well as noles bans. 2022 they thought that he will win slam race with such ugly political influence and dirty tricks. but, after 2022 came 2023. karma is the *****!

 

[RS]

I believe that the lack of natural surface specialists in the last 20+ years affected spectators' judgement and perception when it comes to players' all-surface abilities, especially when thinking about the top dogs.

Yeah, Djoko winning 9 RG titles is a crazy assumption for sure.

I assume NoleFam are giving him 3 he won + 08 12 13 14 20 22 for the 9.

However we don't know things turn out exactly like that it's a slight assumption and obviously 08 gets debated with Fed. I don't really follow the taking out players line much anyway.

 

[Martin J]

I assume NoleFam are giving him 3 he won + 08 12 13 14 20 22 for the 9.

However we don't know things turn out exactly like that it's a slight assumption and obviously 08 gets debated with Fed. I don't really follow the taking out players line much anyway.

Thank God the 2007 FO wasn't included, lol

 

[RS]

Thank God the 2007 FO wasn't included, lol

I don't think they would argue this but heck who knows

 

[Martin J]

I don't think they would argue this but heck who knows

I always believed Moya would beat him there if not for Ned. He already defeated him in Hamburg where conditions are more rewarding to Djoko's game and he played pretty well at the FO that year. But, yeah, who knows.

 

[Hood_Man]

Would 2015-2016 have been the norm?

Choking vs. Stan in 2015 and beating clay god Murray in 2016 is the sign of the GOAT?

I'm glad someone else noticed it. Djokovic mentally folded after he lost the second set in the 2015 final.

Wawrinka was excellent but realistically all he did that was different to other players that year was he didn't panic when he was down.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

First Federer and then Djokovic would have won tons on clay without Nadal around.

But the Clay Goat would be Borg.

 

[RS]

I always believed Moya would beat him there if not for Ned. He already defeated him in Hamburg where conditions are more rewarding to Djoko's game and he played pretty well at the FO that year. But, yeah, who knows.

I am sure some might say Davydenko beats him as well.

 

[Martin J]

I am sure some might say Davydenko beats him as well.

Yeah, good choice, Davy played really well and should've taken a set or two off Fed. Though there is always his head and fitness...

 

[BauerAlmeida]

In a world without RAFA I see a mono free Sod being the dominant force at RG actually.

Soderling did deserve a RG, though. It's a pity neither him, Thiem or Coria could get one. At least Thiem got a USO.

 

[Aabye5]

Rafa made Nole the man he would become...

 

[The Blond Blur]

Soderling did deserve a RG, though. It's a pity neither him, Thiem or Coria could get one. At least Thiem got a USO.

This wouldn’t be the same thing. In a world without RAFA Sod would be a GS champion already and in all likelihood plays even better after getting that first major title.

 

[CoolCoolCool]

Yes there are many eras Djokovic and Federer both max out at 2 RG titles each, maybe even 1 apiece in some eras (granted that is more than Fed has now only due to Nadal and getting way more of prime Nadal than Djokovic got). Both would be great clay counters in any era, but not necessarily legendary. The fact someone is even speculating on Djokovic winning 9 RG titles without Nadal just shows what an abysmal weak clay period the last 20 years has largely been, especially the last 15. There is no planet Djokovic is a 9 RG caliber clay player, sorry Djokovic fans.

No need to be sorry, thanks for letting me know. I didn't know you had a special crystal ball that lets you observe parallel universes.

Whether he'd deserve to have so many titles is besides the point. I never claimed the last 20 years have been a super strong clay era and he'd win 9 RG titles in any era. There's nothing crazy in thinking he would have won in 2008, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2020 and 2022. Rafa was the only one good enough to stop him in those editions.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

Yes there are many eras Djokovic and Federer both max out at 2 RG titles each, maybe even 1 apiece in some eras (granted that is more than Fed has now only due to Nadal and getting way more of prime Nadal than Djokovic got). Both would be great clay counters in any era, but not necessarily legendary. The fact someone is even speculating on Djokovic winning 9 RG titles without Nadal just shows what an abysmal weak clay period the last 20 years has largely been, especially the last 15. There is no planet Djokovic is a 9 RG caliber clay player, sorry Djokovic fans.

Djokovic isn't a 9 RG caliber player, but nobody is, aside from Nadal (who got that) and Borg (who'd get that without retiring young).

However, I see Djokovic and Federer winning multiple RG in the '90s, even if there was a deep clay field, they are just better players. A lot of the '90s clay specialists weren't good outside clay (Muster being horrible on grass, for instance) while clay was Federer and Djokovic's worst surface, so that makes people think the former were a bit better on the surface than they actually were, and the latter the opposite. But I think guys like Corretja, Moya, Bruguera, Kafelnikov AREN'T better on clay than Djokovic and Federer.

 

[RS]

I assume NoleFam are giving him 3 he won + 08 12 13 14 20 22 for the 9.

However we don't know things turn out exactly like that it's a slight assumption and obviously 08 gets debated with Fed. I don't really follow the taking out players line much anyway.

No need to be sorry, thanks for letting me know. I didn't know you had a special crystal ball that lets you observe parallel universes.

Whether he'd deserve to have so many titles is besides the point. I never claimed the last 20 years have been a super strong clay era and he'd win 9 RG titles in any era. There's nothing crazy in thinking he would have won in 2008, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2020 and 2022. Rafa was the only one good enough to stop him in those editions.

Confirmed

 

[Hitman]

Yes there are many eras Djokovic and Federer both max out at 2 RG titles each, maybe even 1 apiece in some eras (granted that is more than Fed has now only due to Nadal and getting way more of prime Nadal than Djokovic got). Both would be great clay counters in any era, but not necessarily legendary. The fact someone is even speculating on Djokovic winning 9 RG titles without Nadal just shows what an abysmal weak clay period the last 20 years has largely been, especially the last 15. There is no planet Djokovic is a 9 RG caliber clay player, sorry Djokovic fans.

I don't think any sane Djokovic fan has ever said Djokovic was 9 RG caliber champion. LOL

 

[Hitman]

Rafa made Nole the man he would become...

This is basically it.

Djokovic NEEDS Nadal to become the champion he ultimately goes onto be. Would he have still been a great player? Yes, of course. But would he have been the Djokovic we all know, without Nadal? I don't think so. He has openly said this countless times that without Nadal he wouldn't be holding the slam record, because he would not be the player he is.

Nadal's existence is vital for Djokovic's success.

 

[Angrybirdstar]

But I think guys like Corretja, Moya, Bruguera, Kafelnikov AREN'T better on clay than Djokovic and Federer.

Bruguera is the only warm take here tbh (which i disagree with to some extent but it's whatevs). i think it's fairest to compare the likes of peak Corretja, Moya, and Kafelnikov to the likes of peak Ferrer, Tsitsipas, and Thiem. vs Djokovic and Federer, clay-career-wise you'd look towards the likes of Vilas or Muster or Orantes, and clay-peak-wise you'd look towards the likes of Ferrero or Panatta or Noah (not mutually exclusive categories, and this is before even getting into the 3 RG guys). think it's fair to say that having to go through a greater quantity of clay specialists (in any previous era), before even getting into finals opponents, would have made them less automatic (but not Nadal)