Poll: Is Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario an ATG?

Is ASV an ATG?

  • Yes

  • No


Results are only viewable after voting.

daggerman

Hall of Fame
Yes or no?

I'm intentionally not including her career accomplishments in this post because I'm curious about your answers based on what you currently think/know about her.
 

bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
I'm voting yes - a strong yes.

4 Slams, 8 additional finals. Wins over all the top players - IN SLAMS, including multiple wins in finals against top players. Doubles Slams, mixed Slams, Fed Cup wins, No. 1 ranking.

I sort of get the possible argument against her - she wasn't a dominant player, the matches never seemed to be on her racquet - it often seemed to be all whether she could retrieve enough and get her opponents to miss. (though I think there's a little more to her game). But, again, she achieved everything I listed in a strong era, and she affected Slam totals for other top players, thus put her stamp on the game and her era.

My problem with someone like Conchita Martinez's legacy - even though I'm a fan and even though I have no problem with her HOF induction - isn't the fact that she "only" won one Slam and made "only" three finals or her poor record against the top players of her generation (ASV has poor records too, even if better than Martinez), it's that she never beat the top players of her generation when it mattered - thus she never affected their legacies and thus didn't really define her era at all. Just ONE win over Seles and Graf IN A SLAM and her career looks miles better. ASV doesn't have that problem (and obviously has 4 times the Slams and many more finals).

So, count me for a yes.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
She's a GREAT. But not an all time great. I'd say similarly of players such as Henin and Venus Williams. All time greats should be an exclusive group i.e. Lenglen, Wills-Moody, King, Court, Evert, Navratilova, Graf and Serena Williams. I'd also add in players such as Gibson and Connolly that absolutely dominated but circumstances derailed them.
I'm not sure where I stand on Seles, but wouldn't disagree with either argument for or against.
 

skaj

Legend
She's a GREAT. But not an all time great. I'd say similarly of players such as Henin and Venus Williams. All time greats should be an exclusive group i.e. Lenglen, Wills-Moody, King, Court, Evert, Navratilova, Graf and Serena Williams. I'd also add in players such as Gibson and Connolly that absolutely dominated but circumstances derailed them.
I'm not sure where I stand on Seles, but wouldn't disagree with either argument for or against.
Henin and Venus Williams cannot be pun in the same category as her. Not only that they have accomplished significantly more, but they did it in an era that was much tougher. Sanchez Vicario won most of her slams as well as her number one position probably thanks to the stabbing of Seles. Also, I think they would pretty much dominate her prime vs prime, except for Venus on clay.
 
Last edited:
She's a GREAT. But not an all time great. I'd say similarly of players such as Henin and Venus Williams. All time greats should be an exclusive group i.e. Lenglen, Wills-Moody, King, Court, Evert, Navratilova, Graf and Serena Williams. I'd also add in players such as Gibson and Connolly that absolutely dominated but circumstances derailed them.
I'm not sure where I stand on Seles, but wouldn't disagree with either argument for or against.
IMO Henin and Venus much better players than Sanchez-Vicario. Even Conchita Martínez was better.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
IMO Henin and Venus much better players than Sanchez-Vicario. Even Conchita Martínez was better.
I agree Henin and Venus have better careers but I meant I wouldn't describe either of them as ATGs. For me, that is reserved for those who achieved a great deal more and then some.

Also, Martinez (whom I like) achieved considerably less than ASV. Not even close.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
Henin and Venus Williams cannot be pun in the same category as her. Not only that they have accomplished significantly more, but they did it in an era that was much tougher. Sanchez Vicario won most of her slams as well as her number one position probably thanks to the stabbing of Seles. Also, I think they would pretty much dominate her prime vs prime, except for Venus on clay.
So do you rate Henin and Venus as ATGs? Which is, of course, your prerogative.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
Wikipedia
Arantxa Sánchez Vicario

Aránzazu Isabel María "Arantxa" Sánchez Vicario[2] (Spanish pronunciation: [aˈɾanθaθu isaˈβel maˈɾi.a aˈɾantʃa ˈsantʃeθ βiˈkaɾjo];[a] born 18 December 1971) is a Spanish former world No. 1 retired tennis player. She won 14 Grand Slam titles: four in singles, six in women's doubles, and four in mixed doubles. In 1994, she was crowned the ITF World Champion for the year.

Medal record
Country (sports)Spain
ResidenceBarcelona, Spain
Born18 December 1971 (age 48)
Barcelona, Spain
Height1.69 m (5 ft 6 1⁄2 in)
Turned pro1985
Retired2002
PlaysRight-handed (two-handed backhand)
Prize money$16,942,640
Int. Tennis HoF2007 (member page)
Career record759–295 (72.0%)
Career titles29
Highest rankingNo. 1 (6 February 1995)
Australian OpenF (1994, 1995)
French OpenW (1989, 1994, 1998)
WimbledonF (1995, 1996)
US OpenW (1994)
Grand Slam CupQF (1998, 1999)
Tour FinalsF (1993)
Career record676–224 (75.1%)
Career titles69
DOUBLES: Highest rankingNo. 1 (19 October 1992)
Australian OpenW (1992, 1995, 1996)
French OpenF (1992, 1995)
WimbledonW (1995)
US OpenW (1993, 1994)
Tour FinalsW (1992, 1995)
Career record68–29 (70.1%)[1]
Career titles4
Australian OpenW (1993)
French OpenW (1990, 1992)
Wimbledon3R (1990)
US OpenW (2000)
Fed CupW (1991, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1998)
Hopman CupW (1990, 2002)
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
Inmaculada Concepción "Conchita" Martínez Bernat (born 16 April 1972) is a former professional tennis player. She was the first Spanish player to win the women's singles title at Wimbledon, where she beat Martina Navratilova in the 1994 final. Martínez also was the singles runner-up at the 1998 Australian Open and the 2000 French Open. She reached a highest world ranking of No. 2 in October 1995 and finished the season in the Top 10 for nine years. Martínez won 33 singles and 13 doubles titles during her 18-year career, as well as three Olympic medals.
Conchita Martínez
Medal record
Full nameInmaculada Concepción Martínez Bernat
Country (sports) Spain
ResidenceBarcelona, Spain
San Diego, California, U.S.
Born16 April 1972 (age 47)
Monzón, Huesca, Spain
Height1.73 m (5 ft 8 in)
Turned proFebruary 1988
Retired15 April 2006
PlaysRight-handed (one-handed backhand)
Prize money$11,527,977
Career record739–297 (71.3%)
Career titles33 WTA, 3 ITF
Highest rankingNo. 2 (30 October 1995)
Australian OpenF (1998)
French OpenF (2000)
WimbledonW (1994)
US OpenSF (1995, 1996)
Career record414–232 (64.1%)
DOUBLES: Career titles13 WTA, 2 ITF
Highest rankingNo. 7 (11 January 1993)
Australian OpenSF (1998, 2002)
French OpenF (1992, 2001)
WimbledonQF (1995, 2003)
US OpenSF (2005)
Fed CupW (1991, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1998)
A five-time winner of the Fed Cup as a player, Martínez was the Spanish Fed Cup team captain from 2013 to 2017 and the Spanish Davis Cup team captain from 2015 to 2017, leading the Davis Cup team back into the top-tier World Group under her captaincy.[1] She has also served as a part-time coach to Garbiñe Muguruza, guiding her to the 2017 Wimbledon title, and was the full-time coach to Karolína Plíšková through 2018 and 2019. She began coaching Muguruza on a full-time basis in 2020.
 

ChrisG

Professional
How dare you ?
Arantxa was one Steffi away from multiplying her titles.
She was a fierce competitor for arguably the best of her era (and more if you ask me).
An all time great for sure
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
How dare you ?
Arantxa was one Steffi away from multiplying her titles.
She was a fierce competitor for arguably the best of her era (and more if you ask me).
An all time great for sure
The reason l admire ASV is precisely because she was such a fighter. She really made the most of her abilities. Plus, a great doubles player which is rarely mentioned.
One of the few to reach no.1 in both singles and doubles.
 

skaj

Legend
My answer is in my first post in this thread. I'd assumed you'd read it as you quoted it.
I assumed you'd read my post in which I explain why the three cannot be in the same category, as you quoted it.
 
I agree Henin and Venus have better careers but I meant I wouldn't describe either of them as ATGs. For me, that is reserved for those who achieved a great deal more and then some.

Also, Martinez (whom I like) achieved considerably less than ASV. Not even close.

It seems that you order everything by his records . We all know that list, so what are we debating here?

I insist IMO CM better than ASV. I don't care about his achievements.

ASV great fighter and mediocre tennis player.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
I assumed you'd read my post in which I explain why the three cannot be in the same category, as you quoted it.
Obviously I did, hence asking the question re category.
You believe Henin and Venus belong in the rarefied group of ATGs of Evert, Graf, Serena Williams et al. I don't.
That's fine. We don't have to agree.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
It seems that you order everything by his records . We all know that list, so what are we debating here?

I insist IMO CM better than ASV. I don't care about his achievements.

ASV great fighter and mediocre tennis player.
Ok. You think Martinez is better than ASV. I don't. No biggie.
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
So do you rate Henin and Venus as ATGs? Which is, of course, your prerogative.
It’s reasonable to do so.

After all, in the men’s game, it’s generally accepted that those with 6+ slams are ATGs - so a similar rule should apply in the women’s. (Which btw, is why I voted no for ASV in this poll - she’s more a borderline great like Sir Andy).
 

skaj

Legend
Obviously I did, hence asking the question re category.
You believe Henin and Venus belong in the rarefied group of ATGs of Evert, Graf, Serena Williams et al. I don't.
That's fine. We don't have to agree.
Obviously I did read yours too. We don't have to agree, of course, I just thought that after my first comment to your post here you would change your mind.

Are you at all interested in why I think they belong to ATGs?
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
Obviously I did read yours too. We don't have to agree, of course, I just thought that after my first comment to your post here you would change your mind.

Are you at all interested in why I think they belong to ATGs?
I won't change my mind but, yes, I'm interested in your opinion.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
It’s reasonable to do so.

After all, in the men’s game, it’s generally accepted that those with 6+ slams are ATGs - so a similar rule should apply in the women’s. (Which btw, is why I voted no for ASV in this poll - she’s more a borderline great like Sir Andy).
It's difficult to compare the men with the women given so many lost out before tennis went open. And whilst you cd argue that the French and the AO was less of a priority until the mid 80s, the best of the best females have incredible stats generally, not just the majors.
Would you say Emmerson was an ATG?
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
It's difficult to compare the men with the women given so many lost out before tennis went open. And whilst you cd argue that the French and the AO was less of a priority until the mid 80s, the best of the best females have incredible stats generally, not just the majors.
Would you say Emmerson was an ATG?
He's also borderline.

I meant 6+ slams in the Open Era.

I think your list of ATGs probably equates to what I'd call Tier 1 ATGs. I think personally it's a bit harsh to state that Venus and Henin are not greats.
 
Borderline. Strong consistency, many slam finals, claycourt ATG but generally owned in late stages elsewhere except the one glorious USO win. I guess if I don't think Murray quite makes it as an ATG then neither does ASV.
 

bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
He's also borderline.

I meant 6+ slams in the Open Era.

I think your list of ATGs probably equates to what I'd call Tier 1 ATGs. I think personally it's a bit harsh to state that Venus and Henin are not greats.
Right - there's not a standardized definition of ATG - people have their own perceptions. For some people, ATGs are a considerably narrow group of players compared to others - who cast their net wider.
 
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skaj

Legend
Obviously I did read yours too. We don't have to agree, of course, I just thought that after my first comment to your post here you would change your mind.

Are you at all interested in why I think they belong to ATGs?
One of the posters already explained, I will just add that at their best Henin and Venus would beat most of your ATGs.
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
I said no mostly because of the stupid ball carrier she used. Can't she put the ball in her panties like everyone else? And the bankruptcy.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
He's also borderline.

I meant 6+ slams in the Open Era.

I think your list of ATGs probably equates to what I'd call Tier 1 ATGs. I think personally it's a bit harsh to state that Venus and Henin are not greats.
I categorically said they were "great" players in my first post. But I get that you tier your players, and that's probably sensible. I'm definitely more clear cut in that, as I've previously said, that the very best deserve to stand alone. They've earnt it. I also don't judge on majors alone for reasons previously stated. I guess my opinion is coloured by how randomly we use the word 'superstar' - no reality TV person you're not a superstar. However, I also think this is subjective: Sharapova, has achieved less than quite a few women previously discussed, but there's no doubt she was a superstar of the game. Much like Sabatini, they transcended tennis. But that's a different discussion.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
One of the posters already explained, I will just add that at their best Henin and Venus would beat most of your ATGs.
You can't judge how players from different eras would perform against each other - that said, I imagine Henin would be ok witb a wooden racquet, Venus not so much.
Out of interest, Henin and Venus aside, who else is on your ATG list?
 

skaj

Legend
You can't judge how players from different eras would perform against each other - that said, I imagine Henin would be ok witb a wooden racquet, Venus not so much.
Out of interest, Henin and Venus aside, who else is on your ATG list?
Yes you can judge it, that is what we are doing here all along, you in the post I am commenting right now. And not only that half of them used other than wooden racket, but why would Venus and Henin play with wooden rackets?

I never thought about it, the ATG list.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
Yes you can judge it, that is what we are doing here all along, you in the post I am commenting right now. And not only that half of them used other than wooden racket, but why would Venus and Henin play with wooden rackets?

I never thought about it, the ATG list.
I'm judging whom I think are ATGs, not how they would perform against players from different eras.
Well, you may not have thought about your ATG List, but you've already indicated Henin and Venus belong on it.
 

skaj

Legend
I'm judging whom I think are ATGs, not how they would perform against players from different eras.
Well, you may not have thought about your ATG List, but you've already indicated Henin and Venus belong on it.
You were talking about wooden rackets in that context.
I was just responding to your comment on the subject, but making of an ATGs list was never a part of my free time activities.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
You were talking about wooden rackets in that context.
I was just responding to your comment on the subject, but making of an ATGs list was never a part of my free time activities.
Have a good weekend.
 

suwanee4712

Professional
There are things to admire about her. But I don't see her as an ATG. Maybe an ATG clay court player with her 3 French titles. I think she was the right player at the right time from 1994-1996 with that top 10 to compete against.
 
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thrust

Hall of Fame
She's a GREAT. But not an all time great. I'd say similarly of players such as Henin and Venus Williams. All time greats should be an exclusive group i.e. Lenglen, Wills-Moody, King, Court, Evert, Navratilova, Graf and Serena Williams. I'd also add in players such as Gibson and Connolly that absolutely dominated but circumstances derailed them.
I'm not sure where I stand on Seles, but wouldn't disagree with either argument for or against.
Good Post, fair and accurate. I would include Seles as an ATG though not ASV, who was a great player but not quite an ATG player.
 
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thrust

Hall of Fame
It's difficult to compare the men with the women given so many lost out before tennis went open. And whilst you cd argue that the French and the AO was less of a priority until the mid 80s, the best of the best females have incredible stats generally, not just the majors.
Would you say Emmerson was an ATG?
NO! Great player but ATG.
 
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