She's a GREAT. But not an all time great. I'd say similarly of players such as Henin and Venus Williams. All time greats should be an exclusive group i.e. Lenglen, Wills-Moody, King, Court, Evert, Navratilova, Graf and Serena Williams. I'd also add in players such as Gibson and Connolly that absolutely dominated but circumstances derailed them.
I'm not sure where I stand on Seles, but wouldn't disagree with either argument for or against.
IMO Henin and Venus much better players than Sanchez-Vicario. Even Conchita Martínez was better.She's a GREAT. But not an all time great. I'd say similarly of players such as Henin and Venus Williams. All time greats should be an exclusive group i.e. Lenglen, Wills-Moody, King, Court, Evert, Navratilova, Graf and Serena Williams. I'd also add in players such as Gibson and Connolly that absolutely dominated but circumstances derailed them.
I'm not sure where I stand on Seles, but wouldn't disagree with either argument for or against.
I agree Henin and Venus have better careers but I meant I wouldn't describe either of them as ATGs. For me, that is reserved for those who achieved a great deal more and then some.IMO Henin and Venus much better players than Sanchez-Vicario. Even Conchita Martínez was better.
So do you rate Henin and Venus as ATGs? Which is, of course, your prerogative.Henin and Venus Williams cannot be pun in the same category as her. Not only that they have accomplished significantly more, but they did it in an era that was much tougher. Sanchez Vicario won most of her slams as well as her number one position probably thanks to the stabbing of Seles. Also, I think they would pretty much dominate her prime vs prime, except for Venus on clay.
Medal record
| |||||||||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Country (sports) | Spain | ||||||||||||||||||
Residence | Barcelona, Spain | ||||||||||||||||||
Born | 18 December 1971 (age 48) Barcelona, Spain | ||||||||||||||||||
Height | 1.69 m (5 ft 6 1⁄2 in) | ||||||||||||||||||
Turned pro | 1985 | ||||||||||||||||||
Retired | 2002 | ||||||||||||||||||
Plays | Right-handed (two-handed backhand) | ||||||||||||||||||
Prize money | $16,942,640 | ||||||||||||||||||
Int. Tennis HoF | 2007 (member page) | ||||||||||||||||||
Career record | 759–295 (72.0%) | ||||||||||||||||||
Career titles | 29 | ||||||||||||||||||
Highest ranking | No. 1 (6 February 1995) | ||||||||||||||||||
Australian Open | F (1994, 1995) | ||||||||||||||||||
French Open | W (1989, 1994, 1998) | ||||||||||||||||||
Wimbledon | F (1995, 1996) | ||||||||||||||||||
US Open | W (1994) | ||||||||||||||||||
Grand Slam Cup | QF (1998, 1999) | ||||||||||||||||||
Tour Finals | F (1993) | ||||||||||||||||||
Career record | 676–224 (75.1%) | ||||||||||||||||||
Career titles | 69 | ||||||||||||||||||
DOUBLES: Highest ranking | No. 1 (19 October 1992) | ||||||||||||||||||
Australian Open | W (1992, 1995, 1996) | ||||||||||||||||||
French Open | F (1992, 1995) | ||||||||||||||||||
Wimbledon | W (1995) | ||||||||||||||||||
US Open | W (1993, 1994) | ||||||||||||||||||
Tour Finals | W (1992, 1995) | ||||||||||||||||||
Career record | 68–29 (70.1%)[1] | ||||||||||||||||||
Career titles | 4 | ||||||||||||||||||
Australian Open | W (1993) | ||||||||||||||||||
French Open | W (1990, 1992) | ||||||||||||||||||
Wimbledon | 3R (1990) | ||||||||||||||||||
US Open | W (2000) | ||||||||||||||||||
Fed Cup | W (1991, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1998) | ||||||||||||||||||
Hopman Cup | W (1990, 2002) | ||||||||||||||||||
Medal record | |
---|---|
Full name | Inmaculada Concepción Martínez Bernat |
Country (sports) | Spain |
Residence | Barcelona, Spain San Diego, California, U.S. |
Born | 16 April 1972 (age 47) Monzón, Huesca, Spain |
Height | 1.73 m (5 ft 8 in) |
Turned pro | February 1988 |
Retired | 15 April 2006 |
Plays | Right-handed (one-handed backhand) |
Prize money | $11,527,977 |
Career record | 739–297 (71.3%) |
Career titles | 33 WTA, 3 ITF |
Highest ranking | No. 2 (30 October 1995) |
Australian Open | F (1998) |
French Open | F (2000) |
Wimbledon | W (1994) |
US Open | SF (1995, 1996) |
Career record | 414–232 (64.1%) |
DOUBLES: Career titles | 13 WTA, 2 ITF |
Highest ranking | No. 7 (11 January 1993) |
Australian Open | SF (1998, 2002) |
French Open | F (1992, 2001) |
Wimbledon | QF (1995, 2003) |
US Open | SF (2005) |
Fed Cup | W (1991, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1998) |
The reason l admire ASV is precisely because she was such a fighter. She really made the most of her abilities. Plus, a great doubles player which is rarely mentioned.How dare you ?
Arantxa was one Steffi away from multiplying her titles.
She was a fierce competitor for arguably the best of her era (and more if you ask me).
An all time great for sure
So do you rate Henin and Venus as ATGs? Which is, of course, your prerogative.
The question was do you rate Henin and Venus as ATGs?Higher than Sanchez-Vicario, that's for sure.
The question was do you rate Henin and Venus as ATGs?
My answer is in my first post in this thread. I'd assumed you'd read it as you quoted it.Sure. How would you call them?
My answer is in my first post in this thread. I'd assumed you'd read it as you quoted it.
I agree Henin and Venus have better careers but I meant I wouldn't describe either of them as ATGs. For me, that is reserved for those who achieved a great deal more and then some.
Also, Martinez (whom I like) achieved considerably less than ASV. Not even close.
Obviously I did, hence asking the question re category.I assumed you'd read my post in which I explain why the three cannot be in the same category, as you quoted it.
Ok. You think Martinez is better than ASV. I don't. No biggie.It seems that you order everything by his records . We all know that list, so what are we debating here?
I insist IMO CM better than ASV. I don't care about his achievements.
ASV great fighter and mediocre tennis player.
So do you rate Henin and Venus as ATGs? Which is, of course, your prerogative.
Obviously I did, hence asking the question re category.
You believe Henin and Venus belong in the rarefied group of ATGs of Evert, Graf, Serena Williams et al. I don't.
That's fine. We don't have to agree.
I won't change my mind but, yes, I'm interested in your opinion.Obviously I did read yours too. We don't have to agree, of course, I just thought that after my first comment to your post here you would change your mind.
Are you at all interested in why I think they belong to ATGs?
It's difficult to compare the men with the women given so many lost out before tennis went open. And whilst you cd argue that the French and the AO was less of a priority until the mid 80s, the best of the best females have incredible stats generally, not just the majors.It’s reasonable to do so.
After all, in the men’s game, it’s generally accepted that those with 6+ slams are ATGs - so a similar rule should apply in the women’s. (Which btw, is why I voted no for ASV in this poll - she’s more a borderline great like Sir Andy).
It's difficult to compare the men with the women given so many lost out before tennis went open. And whilst you cd argue that the French and the AO was less of a priority until the mid 80s, the best of the best females have incredible stats generally, not just the majors.
Would you say Emmerson was an ATG?
He's also borderline.
I meant 6+ slams in the Open Era.
I think your list of ATGs probably equates to what I'd call Tier 1 ATGs. I think personally it's a bit harsh to state that Venus and Henin are not greats.
Obviously I did read yours too. We don't have to agree, of course, I just thought that after my first comment to your post here you would change your mind.
Are you at all interested in why I think they belong to ATGs?
I categorically said they were "great" players in my first post. But I get that you tier your players, and that's probably sensible. I'm definitely more clear cut in that, as I've previously said, that the very best deserve to stand alone. They've earnt it. I also don't judge on majors alone for reasons previously stated. I guess my opinion is coloured by how randomly we use the word 'superstar' - no reality TV person you're not a superstar. However, I also think this is subjective: Sharapova, has achieved less than quite a few women previously discussed, but there's no doubt she was a superstar of the game. Much like Sabatini, they transcended tennis. But that's a different discussion.He's also borderline.
I meant 6+ slams in the Open Era.
I think your list of ATGs probably equates to what I'd call Tier 1 ATGs. I think personally it's a bit harsh to state that Venus and Henin are not greats.
You can't judge how players from different eras would perform against each other - that said, I imagine Henin would be ok witb a wooden racquet, Venus not so much.One of the posters already explained, I will just add that at their best Henin and Venus would beat most of your ATGs.
You can't judge how players from different eras would perform against each other - that said, I imagine Henin would be ok witb a wooden racquet, Venus not so much.
Out of interest, Henin and Venus aside, who else is on your ATG list?
I'm judging whom I think are ATGs, not how they would perform against players from different eras.Yes you can judge it, that is what we are doing here all along, you in the post I am commenting right now. And not only that half of them used other than wooden racket, but why would Venus and Henin play with wooden rackets?
I never thought about it, the ATG list.
I'm judging whom I think are ATGs, not how they would perform against players from different eras.
Well, you may not have thought about your ATG List, but you've already indicated Henin and Venus belong on it.
Have a good weekend.You were talking about wooden rackets in that context.
I was just responding to your comment on the subject, but making of an ATGs list was never a part of my free time activities.
Have a good weekend.
Good Post, fair and accurate. I would include Seles as an ATG though not ASV, who was a great player but not quite an ATG player.She's a GREAT. But not an all time great. I'd say similarly of players such as Henin and Venus Williams. All time greats should be an exclusive group i.e. Lenglen, Wills-Moody, King, Court, Evert, Navratilova, Graf and Serena Williams. I'd also add in players such as Gibson and Connolly that absolutely dominated but circumstances derailed them.
I'm not sure where I stand on Seles, but wouldn't disagree with either argument for or against.
NO! Great player but ATG.It's difficult to compare the men with the women given so many lost out before tennis went open. And whilst you cd argue that the French and the AO was less of a priority until the mid 80s, the best of the best females have incredible stats generally, not just the majors.
Would you say Emmerson was an ATG?