[Poll] Murray 2016 vs Sinner 2024

[Winner Sinner]

Qui il dibattito è aperto anche se per me Sinner 2024 vince senza ombra di dubbio;

Record di vittorie/sconfitte
Murray 2016 = 78-9 (90%)
Peccatore 2024= 70-6 (92%)

Titoli
2016 = 9
Peccatore 2024= 8

Sbattere
2016 = 1
Peccatore 2024= 2

Grande titolo
2016 = 6
Peccatore 2024= 6

Finali ATP
Murray 2016=V
Peccatore 2024=W

Olimpiadi
Murray 2016=V
Sinner 2024=Non giocato

Contro i primi 10
2016 = 16-5
Peccatore 2024= 16-5

Contro i primi 5
2016 = 7-4
Peccatore 2024= 11-4

Prestazione da sbattere

2016 di Murray
Australian Open = F
Roland Garros = F
Wimbledon = V
Us Open = Quarti di finale

Peccatore 2024
Australian Open = V
Roland Garros = San Francisco
Wimbledon = Quarti di finale
Apertura degli Stati Uniti = W

 

[nolefam_2024]

Murray 2016 did not dominate. That is my first criteria. We can have all the stats in the world but Djokovic made mincemeat of Murray in 2 slam finals.

See. Sinner might not have won 3 or 4 slams this year but he had not a single match where he was dominated. Not even 1. Even the Beijing final was very close and that's the only match where he lost more pts than won.

So it's no brainer sinner is ahead.

Forget the big 3 apologists. They are like dinosaurs now. Big 3 nothing.

Sinner is dominant number 1 and Murray is not. That's the biggest difference.

 

[nolefam_2024]

And I want to see @BorgTheGOAT in 2 years when he will accept how far ahead sinner is to Andy Murray.

Again completely forget big 3 apologists.

 

[Winner Sinner]

To make sense of this thread I had to go and check Murray's entire 2016 season on the ATP website.
It must be said that from Wimbledon to Paris Bercy won practically everything except the US Open, but he faced truly miserable competition, even at Wimbledon and the Olympics.
After all, Djokovic was slowly eclipsing himself while Fedal was at his lowest.

All this to say that the competition Sinner 2024 had was also greater, even considering that in the first half of 2016 the real Djokovic prevented Murray from winning the Australian Open and Roland Garros.

 

[RG GOD]

Murray was clean

 

[JMR]

Slam performance

Murray 2016
Australian Open = W
Roland Garros = F
Wimbledon = W
Us Open= QF

Spot the error.

 

[Winner Sinner]

Spot the error.

Thanks, I edited right away. Obviously a typo.

 

[zakopinjo]

Murray very easy

3 slam finals, 1 title, two defeats against Novak
2:3 score against Novak
relevant titles on all 3 surface
A much stronger end to the season than Sinner (5 titles in month and half)
Olympic gold


What does Sinner have?

2 slams, relevant titles on hard
0:3 against Alcaraz (only main rival)


In general, all the titles on hard (except Halle, but that is not relevant title) and the score of 0:3 hurt this Sinner's season a lot and it generally cannot be compared to any other player's season.

 

[Mainad]

To make sense of this thread I had to go and check Murray's entire 2016 season on the ATP website.
It must be said that from Wimbledon to Paris Bercy won practically everything except the US Open, but he faced truly miserable competition, even at Wimbledon and the Olympics.
After all, Djokovic was slowly eclipsing himself while Fedal was at his lowest.

All this to say that the competition Sinner 2024 had was also greater, even considering that in the first half of 2016 the real Djokovic prevented Murray from winning the Australian Open and Roland Garros.

But Murray beat the then world #1 to take the position from him. Sinner only had to face Fritz (who took out his next greatest rival Zverev for him) whilst his greatest rival Alcaraz was ill and unable to play at his highest level but against whom he has a losing H2H this season of 0-3.

 

[Winner Sinner]

Murray very easy

3 slam finals, 1 title, two defeats against Novak
2:3 score against Novak
relevant titles on all 3 surface
A much stronger end to the season than Sinner (5 titles in month and half)
Olympic gold


What does Sinner have?

2 slams, relevant titles on hard
0:3 against Alcaraz (only main rival)


In general, all the titles on hard (except Halle, but that is not relevant title) and the score of 0:3 hurt this Sinner's season a lot and it generally cannot be compared to any other player's season.

Let me understand, does Alcaraz become Sinner's only real rival because he has a 3-0 in his favor?
And are the various Djokovic, Medvedev and Zverev against whom he has a 2024 record of 7-1 suddenly poor players?

With this reasoning then we take away from Murray 2016 in the head-to-head with Djokovic the final of the ATP Finals and the 2016 h2h with the real Djokovic becomes 1-3.

The reality is that Murray has emerged with embarrassing competition, and above all Sinner's greater consistency of performance combined with the fact that he has won more slam tournaments (2-1) tips the balance towards Sinner 2024.

 

[zakopinjo]

Let me understand, does Alcaraz become Sinner's only real rival because he has a 3-0 in his favor?
And are the various Djokovic, Medvedev and Zverev against whom he has a 2024 record of 7-1 suddenly poor players?

With this reasoning then we take away from Murray 2016 in the head-to-head with Djokovic the final of the ATP Finals and the 2016 h2h with the real Djokovic becomes 1-3.

The reality is that Murray has emerged with embarrassing competition, and above all Sinner's greater consistency of performance combined with the fact that he has won more slam tournaments (2-1) tips the balance towards Sinner 2024.

Murray has 3 slam finals on 3 different surfaces, in addition to that he also has titles on 3 different surfaces (masters and slam level).
Sinner has masters and slam level titles on only 1 surface
This Sinner season cannot possibly be ahead of Murray's 2016 season. The only thing that comes to mind is that it can be compared to Nadal's 2005 season, but even then Nadal has 2 masters on clay and 2 on hard and was two points away from winning in straight sets against 23 year old Federer

What are Siner's successes this season?
Victory against the 37-year-old Novak at AO or dominating against Medvedev?

It cannot be compared to the generation of the big 3 at all. The only possibility of comparison is with his other seasons or with Alcaraz.

 

[zakopinjo]

Murray has 3 slam finals on 3 different surfaces, in addition to that he also has titles on 3 different surfaces (masters and slam level).
Sinner has masters and slam level titles on only 1 surface
This Sinner season cannot possibly be ahead of Murray's 2016 season. The only thing that comes to mind is that it can be compared to Nadal's 2005 season, but even then Nadal has 2 masters on clay and 2 on hard and was two points away from winning in straight sets against 23 year old Federer ATG.

What are Siner's successes this season?
Victory against the 37-year-old Novak at AO or dominating against Medvedev?

It cannot be compared to the generation of the big 3 at all. The only possibility of comparison is with his other seasons or with Alcaraz.

 

[Winner Sinner]

Murray has 3 slam finals on 3 different surfaces, in addition to that he also has titles on 3 different surfaces (masters and slam level).
Sinner has masters and slam level titles on only 1 surface
This Sinner season cannot possibly be ahead of Murray's 2016 season. The only thing that comes to mind is that it can be compared to Nadal's 2005 season, but even then Nadal has 2 masters on clay and 2 on hard and was two points away from winning in straight sets against 23 year old Federer

What are Siner's successes this season?
Victory against the 37-year-old Novak at AO or dominating against Medvedev?

It cannot be compared to the generation of the big 3 at all. The only possibility of comparison is with his other seasons or with Alcaraz.

And who did Murray beat that season?

But please.

And I repeat, Sinner 2024 has 2 slams to 1 in the comparison, an aspect that definitely weighs more than Murray 2016's 3 slam finals on 3 different surfaces.

And in any case the 37-year-old Djokovic before falling to Sinner was coming off a memorable 2023, and Sinner beat him where no one had dared before, that is in a semi-final at the Australian Open where he had an immaculate record, the same Australian Open where he had won continuously from 2019 to part of the 2022 season where he was unable to participate.
37 year old Djokovic who then even allowed himself the luxury of beating Alcaraz in the Olympic final.

However, before I made a mistake in reporting the Sinner 2024 record against the Djokovic-Medvedev-Zverev trio, it is not 7-1 but 8-1 (vs Djokovic 2-0, vs Medvedev 5-1, vs Zverev 1-0).
Sinner's greatness was precisely that of downsizing 3 pillars of the circuit in the last five years.

 

[Rebel-I.N.S]

Murray 2016 did not dominate. That is my first criteria. We can have all the stats in the world but Djokovic made mincemeat of Murray in 2 slam finals.

See. Sinner might not have won 3 or 4 slams this year but he had not a single match where he was dominated. Not even 1. Even the Beijing final was very close and that's the only match where he lost more pts than won.

So it's no brainer sinner is ahead.

Forget the big 3 apologists. They are like dinosaurs now. Big 3 nothing.

Sinner is dominant number 1 and Murray is not. That's the biggest difference.

Oh really?

How did Sinner do in the clay season? Any titles? A final even?

Arguably, only the best version of Djokovic stopped Murray from a three slam season.

Sinner’s season was incredible but I still give it to Murray off the strength of his consistency from May to November.

There’s a reason why no player has since replicated Murray’s post-USO run in ‘16 - it’s really ****1ng hard.

 

[Rebel-I.N.S]

To make sense of this thread I had to go and check Murray's entire 2016 season on the ATP website.
It must be said that from Wimbledon to Paris Bercy won practically everything except the US Open, but he faced truly miserable competition, even at Wimbledon and the Olympics.
After all, Djokovic was slowly eclipsing himself while Fedal was at his lowest.

All this to say that the competition Sinner 2024 had was also greater, even considering that in the first half of 2016 the real Djokovic prevented Murray from winning the Australian Open and Roland Garros.

At least 2016 Murray actually beat his nemesis that year - multiple times in big finals, in fact.

Sinner couldn’t take one W against Carlitos in three attempts.

 

[Winner Sinner]

Oh really?

How did Sinner do in the clay season? Any titles? A final even?

Arguably, only the best version of Djokovic stopped Murray from a three slam season.

Sinner’s season was incredible but I still give it to Murray off the strength of his consistency from May to November.

There’s a reason why no player has since replicated Murray’s post-USO run in ‘16 - it’s really ****1ng hard.

It always depends on the perspective from where you look at it.

Murray 2016 post US Open;

Wins Beijing, Shanghai, Vienna, Bercy and ATP Finals.

Sinner 2024 post Montreal;

Wins Cincinnati, US Open, Shanghai and ATP Finals, reaching the final in Beijing, losing in the third set tiebreak with Alcaraz.
And I also omit to mention Riyadh.

What is the most impressive sequence?

Did Djokovic stop Murray from winning 3 slams that year?
Appearance totally offset by miserable competition faced by Murray from Wimbledon onwards.
Go and see the names and rankings of those who have beaten from Wimbledon to the ATP Finals.

What did Sinner do in May and in general on Clay?

Semifinal lost in Monte Carlo against the 3-time winner of the tournament Tsitsipas due to a sensational refereeing oversight.
Withdrawal in Madrid before playing the QF he had won due to a hip problem, which subsequently prevented him from participating in his home tournament in Rome, compromising his approach to Roland Garros where he still reached the semi-final leaving only a set on his way before stopping with Alcaraz the future winner losing in 5 sets and proving to have been the most complicated rival in that triumphal march of the Spaniard.
Details that are anything but negligible, unless there is some bad faith.
Sinner has had a constant sense of dominance in this 2024 that Murray has never conveyed, just listen to the recent statements of his opponents.

 

[zakopinjo]

And who did Murray beat that season?

But please.

And I repeat, Sinner 2024 has 2 slams to 1 in the comparison, an aspect that definitely weighs more than Murray 2016's 3 slam finals on 3 different surfaces.

And in any case the 37-year-old Djokovic before falling to Sinner was coming off a memorable 2023, and Sinner beat him where no one had dared before, that is in a semi-final at the Australian Open where he had an immaculate record, the same Australian Open where he had won continuously from 2019 to part of the 2022 season where he was unable to participate.
37 year old Djokovic who then even allowed himself the luxury of beating Alcaraz in the Olympic final.

However, before I made a mistake in reporting the Sinner 2024 record against the Djokovic-Medvedev-Zverev trio, it is not 7-1 but 8-1 (vs Djokovic 2-0, vs Medvedev 5-1, vs Zverev 1-0).
Sinner's greatness was precisely that of downsizing 3 pillars of the circuit in the last five years.

Sinner has no relevant successes on clay and grass, Murray does
Murray has 2 wins over Novak and 1 over Nadal(clay)
Murray has Olympic gold, Sinner didn't even deign to appear at the Olympics


I don't understand the initial comparison
Literally everything is on Murray's side, except for the slams, but he makes up for it with his versatility with 3 slam finals on 3 different surfaces.

It's best to make a thread between Alcaraz 2024 and Sinner 2024. Alcaraz has big titles on all 3 surface and score 3:0

 

[Pheasant]

Sinner has 3915 more points than #2 Zverev. Sinner dominated. I would take Sinner all day long pretty easily here.

I think that a better comparison would be 2024 Alcaraz vs 2016 Murray. This one gets compelling. Murray has much better consistency. But Alcaraz has a higher top gear. I’d probably lean Murray here. But it’s close.

 

[Winner Sinner]

Sinner has no relevant successes on clay and grass, Murray does
Murray has 2 wins over Novak and 1 over Nadal(clay)
Murray has Olympic gold, Sinner didn't even deign to appear at the Olympics


I don't understand the initial comparison
Literally everything is on Murray's side, except for the slams, but he makes up for it with his versatility with 3 slam finals on 3 different surfaces.

It's best to make a thread between Alcaraz 2024 and Sinner 2024. Alcaraz has big titles on all 3 surface and score 3:0

Sinner has a better win/loss record, much more consistency since he has never gone QF in a tournament.
And above all an extra slam which has a decidedly greater weight than the Olympic gold and more versatile results.
Let's also add that that year Murray never reached the peaks of dominance of Sinner 2024, combined with greater competition, and the circle closes.

I repeat, Murray from Wimbledon to the ATP Finals, i.e. the period of time in which it allowed him to establish himself at number 1, faced embarrassing competition.
In the successes of Wimbledon, Olympics, Beijing, Shanghai, Vienna and Bercy, only one top 5 beaten in the total of those 6 triumphs, but what are we talking about?

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

And I want to see @BorgTheGOAT in 2 years when he will accept how far ahead sinner is to Andy Murray.

Again completely forget big 3 apologists.

Didn’t you have me on ignore Nachiket? lol at thinking that being greater than Murray is a benchmark.

 

[duaneeo]

Murray. He won big titles on each surface. And after Monte Carlo, he made the final of every tournament he played (13 tournaments) except the USO.

 

[Neptune]

Murray scored 12,410 points and faced Nole (with 11,780 points) five times in big finals (2 Slams, 2 Masters, 1 YEC).

Compare Sinner 2024 to Nole 2016, and you might be surprised.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Murray scored 12,410 points and faced Nole (with 11,780 points) five times in big finals (2 Slams, 2 Masters, 1 YEC).

Compare Sinner 2024 to Nole 2016, and you might be surprised.

Yes but Murray won 5 of his 6 big titles after rg. When nole was in amor paz phase. And at least there is Zverev Medvedev now while in 2016 fed was also out.

 

[zakopinjo]

Yes but Murray won 5 of his 6 big titles after rg. When nole was in amor paz phase. And at least there is Zverev Medvedev now while in 2016 fed was also out.

Medvedev has been mentally knocked out since January 2024

He hasn't been a serious threat to anyone this season

 

[Winner Sinner]

Murray scored 12,410 points and faced Nole (with 11,780 points) five times in big finals (2 Slams, 2 Masters, 1 YEC).

Compare Sinner 2024 to Nole 2016, and you might be surprised.

If we delve into the subjective component of the competition, it is equivalent to entering a labyrinth with no exit, also because I have already reiterated that Djokovic's first half of 2016 for Murray 2016 was largely compensated by mediocre competition from Wimbledon onwards, where in 6 of the 7 triumphs only had to face a top 5, I repeat only a top 5.

Let's limit ourselves to the statistics, Sinner 2024>Murray 2016 for the simple reason that one more slam tips the scales above everything else within two such similar seasons.

 

[Dominic & Andrey]

Murray on grass, Sinner on HC. Murray feasted on RaoMUG too many times that year.

 

[Mainad]

If we delve into the subjective component of the competition, it is equivalent to entering a labyrinth with no exit, also because I have already reiterated that Djokovic's first half of 2016 for Murray 2016 was largely compensated by mediocre competition from Wimbledon onwards, where in 6 of the 7 triumphs only had to face a top 5, I repeat only a top 5.

Let's limit ourselves to the statistics, Sinner 2024>Murray 2016 for the simple reason that one more slam tips the scales above everything else within two such similar seasons.

The extra Slam edges it for Sinner. Murray still came away with the same number of big titles (6) plus 1 more title (9) than Sinner (8).

 

[btsjungkook]

Murray has 3 slam finals on 3 different surfaces, in addition to that he also has titles on 3 different surfaces (masters and slam level).
Sinner has masters and slam level titles on only 1 surface
This Sinner season cannot possibly be ahead of Murray's 2016 season. The only thing that comes to mind is that it can be compared to Nadal's 2005 season, but even then Nadal has 2 masters on clay and 2 on hard and was two points away from winning in straight sets against 23 year old Federer

What are Siner's successes this season?
Victory against the 37-year-old Novak at AO or dominating against Medvedev?

It cannot be compared to the generation of the big 3 at all. The only possibility of comparison is with his other seasons or with Alcaraz.

He couldn't even straight set Novak at his worst form, then he almost lost against Medvevdev who was dominating him before he got tired.

 

[Cabeza del Demonio]

Spot the error.

Should've lost the SF to Raonic

 

[Maddamhussein]

Murray made 3/4 slams (on 3 different surfaces) and really should have made all four slam finals.

Established TWO 20+ win streaks in that season and went 52-3 after the FO.

Won the Olympics in what was an Olympic year for both him and Sinner and for which there was no points.

Made up the biggest points gap in tennis history of 9000 points and beat the player he took it off in a straight shootout match that decided who would be world number one. He was also 2-3 vs Djokovic and 1-1 vs Nadal in the year.

Sinner went 0-3 vs Alcaraz and feasted over everyone else in what is a pretty weak 2024 field. 2016 Murray would have beaten Medvedev in 4 at AO and would have dog-walked Fritz at USO. Murray also faced a tougher group of players at the Tour Finals than Sinner did.

I know who I’m picking.

 

[Mainad]

Let me understand, does Alcaraz become Sinner's only real rival because he has a 3-0 in his favor?
And are the various Djokovic, Medvedev and Zverev against whom he has a 2024 record of 7-1 suddenly poor players?

With this reasoning then we take away from Murray 2016 in the head-to-head with Djokovic the final of the ATP Finals and the 2016 h2h with the real Djokovic becomes 1-3.

The reality is that Murray has emerged with embarrassing competition, and above all Sinner's greater consistency of performance combined with the fact that he has won more slam tournaments (2-1) tips the balance towards Sinner 2024.

Murray had to face the Big 3 all through his career and had to face the reigning world #1 in order to take it from him. Sinner's greatest rivals for the title, Alcaraz and Zverev were taken out for him and he only had to face Fritz who has never won a Slam or the WTF. How was his competition more "embarrassing" than Sinner's?

 

[Winner Sinner]

Murray had to face the Big 3 all through his career and had to face the reigning world #1 in order to take it from him. Sinner's greatest rivals for the title, Alcaraz and Zverev were taken out for him and he only had to face Fritz who has never won a Slam or the WTF. How was his competition more "embarrassing" than Sinner's?

I was referring to the Wimbledon, Olympics, Beijing, Shanghai, Vienna and Bercy tournaments, only one top 5 faced in the complex of those tournaments.

And in any case it is hilarious that we talk about weak competition for the Sinner 2024 outside of Alcaraz, defining the various Djokovic 2024 and Medvedev 2024 as boiled or ridiculous, while when referring to Murray's 2016 it is totally ignored that Nadal in 2016 played a of the worst seasons of his career, or that Djokovic had a significant drop in his stock after Roland Garros.

Medvedev 2024 will not have been the best version of his career, the fact remains that without Sinner he would probably have won the Australian Open, he would probably have reached the final in Miami, and perhaps he would have even reached the end of the US Open.
Sinner with his 5-1 in the seasonal h2h has reduced it.

 

[tennis_pro]

Murray 2016 did not dominate.

Murray faced prime Djokovic and still came out on top. Who the hell was Sinner supposed to lose the no 1 ranking too? Alcaraz who shows up 6 times in a season or maybe a 37-year old Djokovic who put all his focus to win the Olympics? Or Taylor Fritz?

2016 wasn't a great season, but the level was still 10x higher than today.

 

[aldeayeah]

Roland Garros = San Francisco

Big if true.

I think the seasons are pretty comparable. Sinner had a mid-year slump that brings down his numbers, while Murray had to deal with a much stronger version of Djokovic.

 

[No_Kwan_Do]

It's honestly very difficult.

Sinner has the extra slam, Murray has the extra slam final and OG.

Both have 3 MS titles and a YEC. Sinner has 8 overall titles, Murray 9.

Murray accumulated more ranking points (12500 to 11800), but had a lower WL% for the year (89.7% against 91%)

The one thing Murray did do was beat Nadal in a clay final, and Djokovic in the YEC and won big titles on all 3 surfaces. Sinner was solely HC titles.

Probably JUST give the edge to Murray due to the level of opposition (3-3 H2H against Nadal and Djokovic) and the variety of big titles on different surfaces. Sinner went 0-3 against Alcaraz who's his biggest rival, who's also nowhere near the level of 2016 Djokovic.

 

[nolefam_2024]

It's honestly very difficult.

Sinner has the extra slam, Murray has the extra slam final and OG.

Both have 3 MS titles and a YEC. Sinner has 8 overall titles, Murray 9.

Murray accumulated more ranking points (12500 to 11800), but had a lower WL% for the year (89.7% against 91%)

The one thing Murray did do was beat Nadal in a clay final, and Djokovic in the YEC and won big titles on all 3 surfaces. Sinner was solely HC titles.

Probably JUST give the edge to Murray due to the level of opposition (3-3 H2H against Nadal and Djokovic) and the variety of big titles on different surfaces. Sinner went 0-3 against Alcaraz who's his biggest rival, who's also nowhere near the level of 2016 Djokovic.

92% for sinner not 91% and he can get even higher in Davis cup
Or lower.

 

[Winner Sinner]

Close this thread, discussion that no longer makes the slightest sense.

The 2024 Sinner's season finale is also more impressive than the 2016 Murray's.
Basically, post-Montreal Sinner won Cincinnati, the US Open, the final in Beijing (lost in the third set tiebreak), victory in Shanghai, victory at the ATP Finals and decisive help in helping Italy win the Davis Cup.

He finished with 14 consecutive victories, with 29 of his last 30.
In the last 12 matches he has not conceded a set to his opponents despite having faced top 10 players in 8 of these 12.

Since Cincinnati, his record against the top 10 is 11-1, and his record against the top 5 is 7-1.

So not only is Sinner's 2024 superior to Murray's 2016, but his season finale is better than Murray's 2016 season finale.

 

[Mustard]

But Murray beat the then world #1 to take the position from him.

Strictly speaking, Murray was confirmed as world number 1 at the 2016 Paris Indoor, when Raonic pulled out of their semi final match before it began. Murray then beat Isner in the final, and officially became world number 1 the day after that final.

Murray had to beat Djokovic in the 2016 YEC final to keep the ranking and end 2016 as world number 1, which Murray did with a 6-3, 6-4 win. Had Djokovic won that final, he'd have finished 2016 as world number 1.