Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Here are some of my arguments about it:
POLL: Nadal on clay vs. Djokovic on hard
- Thread starter Sport
- Start date
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Red Rick
Bionic Poster
Total tournament wins
Djokovic on HC: 59
Nadal on clay: 59
Match wins vs top 5
Djokovic on HC: 74
Nadal on clay: 52
Match wins vs top 10
Djokovic on HC: 158
Nadal on clay: 93
Opponent ELO rating
Djokovic on HC: 2055.2
Nadal on clay: 2024.4
Geometric mean opponent rank
Djokovic on HC: 21.4
Nadal on clay: 25.2
Average match time
Djokovic on HC: 1:44
Nadal on clay: 1:49
Wins over multiple Slam champion on surface
Djokovic on HC: 54
Nadal on clay: 0
Djokovic on HC: 59
Nadal on clay: 59
Match wins vs top 5
Djokovic on HC: 74
Nadal on clay: 52
Match wins vs top 10
Djokovic on HC: 158
Nadal on clay: 93
Opponent ELO rating
Djokovic on HC: 2055.2
Nadal on clay: 2024.4
Geometric mean opponent rank
Djokovic on HC: 21.4
Nadal on clay: 25.2
Average match time
Djokovic on HC: 1:44
Nadal on clay: 1:49
Wins over multiple Slam champion on surface
Djokovic on HC: 54
Nadal on clay: 0
D
Deleted member 748597
Guest
My poor joke
Tenacity
Hall of Fame
Yes, you got me. I'm done.Gotcha
And nah, you TRIED to troll and got slayed.
I've seen people call Nadal HC ATG, which he is alongside Roger/Novak who are coGOAT on HC. That is more than enough.
I don't see anyone calling Fed or Novak clay ATGs. Name one GREAT claycourter Nadal had to deal with, not post some stupid gifs lol.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
They aren't considered great bc Nadal is that much better which is the whole reason this thread is the truth. He beat them THIRTEEN TIMES at the FO always in a semi or final. You're done
exit stage left 
Pheasant
Legend
LOL!! Nice one!
Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil
Talk Tennis Guru
It's Nadal. Even with better competition on hard courts. He's been pretty much flawless on the dirt for over a decade.
Tenacity
Hall of Fame
They are not claycourt players, neither of them, not even close. Djokovic tried and was close beating Nadal more than once, but again they are not claycourters. I'm not denying Nadal is that good on clay, but that still doesn't change the fact that he didn't have true claycourter agaisnt him ever.They aren't considered great bc Nadal is that much better which is the whole reason this thread is the truth. He beat them THIRTEEN TIMES at the FO always in a semi or final. You're done
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Djokovic and Federer would both have been easily top 5 (if not top 3) Claycourters of all time....if not for Nadal. Their records, in terms of reaching clay finals (where they usually got dusted by Nadal) are too good to claim they are "not claycourters". Same for Thiem.
Nadal has destroyed guys who would have been considered GOAT level claycourt players without him.
Djokovic, Federer, Dominic Thiem.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Pheasant
Legend
Federer said that he grew up playing mostly on clay courts. Fed was an awesome clay court player. He sure had a tough time making the transition to hard courts. Fed should have stuck with focusing more on clay instead of trying to win on hard courts, which was nearly impossible for him.
HetTheGreaterer
Banned
But nadals level is so bad nowadays
(According to you)
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
SpinToWin
Talk Tennis Guru
Question wasn't how they match up against each other. On that Djokovic has a slight edge as his game is a good counter to Nadal's game.
The question was who is most dominant on their favourite surface. There is no questioning Rafa's dominance on clay, which is the most extreme display of single surface domination in the history of tennis.
junior74
Bionic Poster
Adjusted for difficulty, flexibility, marital issues, fathering children and those anti-Serbian crowds:
Novak 26.308
Nadal -11.097
SpinToWin
Talk Tennis Guru
Take Nadal out of the equation (i.e. think of a counterfactual timeline without Nadal, all else equal). Are Novak and Fed now ATGs on clay?
MeatTornado
Talk Tennis Guru
Only one way to find out.
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
Somehow Lew doesn't know this. This thread was created thanks to him.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
The thread was created because of Lew and to troll, based on the 2nd post by the OP, since Djokovic has done a lot better in hardcourt tournaments than two USO runner up trophies.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Pretty much this.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Yea I mean, how is it supposed to be serious discussion after that post? Lol
Hitman
Bionic Poster
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Lol, of course.
Can't wait for IW to start, so we can move away from the just the constant trolling of each fanbase. LOL
isn’t the stronger competition on HC compensated for by having 2 slams instead of 1 like RG and W?
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Yea the trolling is at an all time high now it seems, and the bickering is not far behind.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Yea the trolling is at an all time high now it seems, and the bickering is not far behind.
I know. Same old same old.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Yes. That's why I made the comparison.
Lost to world number 135 at Wimbledon 1st round:✓
weakera
Talk Tennis Guru
Sport
G.O.A.T.
Because there are more tournaments on hard than clay, Djokovic has more victories over the top 5 and top 10 on hard than Nadal on clay. Irrelevant stat.
The most important is the winning percentage.
Nadal on clay: 92% winning percentage.
Djokovic on hard: 84.5% winning percentage.
Nadal is much better and dominant on clay than Djokovic on hard
Hitman
Bionic Poster
I don't think you are seeing that one of the reasons for Nadal's higher winning percentage can also be attributed to there being less clay events on the tour. He can focus from April to June and be done with the whole clay season. If the season is longer, sure he will have more victories over top 5 and top 10, but his winning percentage will undoubtedly go down also, he will lose more matches. So this is a double edge sword, or a pick your poison scenario.
Now, I personally have already said Nadal is greater on a given surface than Djokovic, but your argument is not the way to show that.
Sport
G.O.A.T.
Nor is Lew II's argument a valid one. Because there are more tournaments on hard than clay, of course Djokovic can amount more victories over the top 10, as he plays more matches on hard than Nadal on clay.
In fact, the difference of 7% in winning percentage between Nadal on clay and Djokovic on hard is too hig to be merely attributed to Nadal only having to play from April to June. Nadal also has an 8% higher winning percentage at RG than Djokovic at the AO, and an 11% higher winning percentage at RG than Novak at the USO.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
I have already said that Nadal is greater on clay, which covers that. But your argument to counter his is full of holes also. Double the clay season and Nadal will win more, but he will lose more also, his winning percentage would drop, because he would suffer burnout from going deep in a couple of events. He manages well between April and June because the period is just about right, if he went on longer, he would start losing more. Many times he has come into the grass completely exhausted, that wouldn't change if he was playing on clay, and more losses would happen.
If the hard court season was around the same time, lets say WTF to Miami, Djokovic would have put up some savage numbers himself.
Sport
G.O.A.T.
You can't apply that logístics to the Slams. All Slams have the same length: 7 matches at most.
Nadal's winning percentage at RG: 98%
Djokovic's winning percentage at the AO: 90%
Djokovic's winning percentage at the USO: 87%
This is one of the valid and clear stats that illustrate that Nadal was more dominant on clay than Djokovic on hard.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
OK, again, I am on your side. I have no doubt that Nadal is greater overall on clay than Djokovic on hard, to me this isn't even a strong discussion. I basically only pointed out the flawed logic in that previous argument you had, because that particular argument is not one to use as it is easily countered.
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