Poll: The Wrist Snap; autonomic or deliberate

[thebuffman]

Want to poll the general public here on the wrist snap or what we deem "pronation". I have become a huge fan of Pat "The Serve Doctor" Dougherty and his teachings. In his teachings he explains the pronation process to be a natural or autonomic reaction to the elbow abruptly stopping during forward acceleration. I completely subscribe to this doctrine.

I was watching The Tennis Channel the other day and their section on Tips and Drills came on. The instructor expounded on pronation, its importance and the power generated from it. He says that, "increasing your service game is as easy as a snap". In it he is referring to the *snap* of the wrist. He goes on to demonstrate by standing at the service line, holding the serving arm straight up in the air, isolating the wrist in the motion and snapping down on the ball into the adjacent service box. He continued to demonstrate by moving further from the service box hitting serves while maintaining isolation of the wrist (or only using the wrist in the motion...no wind up or arm movement) in the technique and snapping the wrist down on the tossed ball. When he gets the baseline he advocates going ahead and adding a gentle windup to the wrist *snap*.

So I am sitting there pondering these entirely different schools of thought about serve pronation. One methodology advocates not even concentrating on the motion of pronation trusting that pronation will occur as an end result of bringing the flexing body & elbow to an abrupt stop hence whipping the forearm forward and downward toward a point of impact at (not through) the ball. The alternate methodology concentrates primarily on the wrist snap and constructs the service motion around it.

 

[tricky]

I'm kinda hardline on this issue. I don't even agree with somebody isolating the "pronation phase" and executing that by itself, let alone wrist snap. Yes, for demo. I also think it's a bad idea to isolate the trophy pose or the racquet drop. It should all flow together (i.e. pitching motion.) And if it doesn't flow (and it doesn't for a lot of people), there's a larger problem.

 

[Love50]

IMO, the guy on Tennis Channel is demonstrating an unnatural wrist snap. He is not pronating...

 

[ronalditop]

For me on the serve is pretty much autonomic. On overheads, I tend to pronate more on purpose depending when I want the ball to go. Im righty, and when I hit and overhead and want it to go to the right, I have to pronate more than when hitting to the left.

 

[LeeD]

Naturally, they're both wrong and right.
Some people lock their wrists, and loosenning it is the cure.
Some people focus on using forearm muscles to snap the wrist, and NOT doing that is the cure.
Everyone has different problems.
The only ones who don't are people with great serves...
I say, RELAX the wrist.

 

[sennoc]

Both explanations are wrong. There is no proper answer in the poll, I'm afraid.

 

[gzhpcu]

Both explanations are wrong. There is no proper answer in the poll, I'm afraid.

Right. The anwers to choose from are:

is "snapping the wrist" conscious?

or

is "snapping the wrist" just passive?

 

[LeeD]

The world exists in shades of gray. There is seldom truly any black or white in this world, and the shades of gray account for over 99% of the ideas we think about.

 

[sennoc]

Yes, in professional tennis pronation at serves is conscious. Yes, it is useful, very. No, it should not generate additional rotation nor power. Its role is totally different.

 

[mtommer]

Every time I "think" about the backswing I easily lose at lease 10 mph on my serve and it can be jarring. Every time I just hit the ball, paying attention to the ball only and my contact point, I suddenly get amazingly better at serving placement and speed. I feel the snap as it happens but that's different from making it happen.

 

[GuyClinch]

The serve doctor is largely correct. However its quite possible to drill pronation - and its incredibly useful in developing your serve IMHO. What exactly do you think those "against the fence" drills that the serve doctor loves do? <g> That's what the 'wrist snap" guy is trying to do as well. Though his drill is poor and he uses some flexion instead of pure pronation.

Think about things like throwing a football or shooting a free throw. Both use wrist in different ways (in football its a pronation) and in basketball its an actual snap.

In these sports as well its very common to work from the end of the motion backwards and then put everything together. Once your serve is working you no longer have to think about pronation much the way a shooter doesn't have to think about a wrist snap or a football ball player doesn't have to think about pronation. It feels 'automatic."

Some tennis pronation drills:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqUDzYl2IJg

Alot of teaching pros have similiar drills INCLUDING the Serve Doctor. <g> Most people aren't going to 'get" pronation without some seperate drilling IMHO.

 

[bhupaes]

I'm kinda hardline on this issue. I don't even agree with somebody isolating the "pronation phase" and executing that by itself, let alone wrist snap. Yes, for demo. I also think it's a bad idea to isolate the trophy pose or the racquet drop. It should all flow together (i.e. pitching motion.) And if it doesn't flow (and it doesn't for a lot of people), there's a larger problem.

Tricky, I almost agree... But in order to ensure that the wrist gets full use, I do something which I had to consciously learn by trial and error over the years. During the racquet drop, I supinate the forearm as much as I can, which also causes the wrist to lay back. Now there is no choice except for the arm to pronate and the wrist to "snap" automatically when swinging up at the ball. Thus, there is a forced or learned element to this process, but at least, I don't need to think about pronating or snapping. Indeed, if I do think about this while playing, I usually screw up royally.

One of the side effects of this is that the racquet drop for me is not just about gravity - I kinda force it back some also. What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Djokovicfan4life]

Right. The anwers to choose from are:

is "snapping the wrist" conscious?

or

is "snapping the wrist" just passive?

Yeah, that's how I read the poll. I believe it should be passive, so I voted for the serve doctor option. The tennis channel clip I've seen appears to be isolating flexion of the wrist as well as pronation. Definitely not the way to go.

 

[tricky]

During the racquet drop, I supinate the forearm as much as I can, which also causes the wrist to lay back

Oh no doubt -- you're talking about executing the upward swing while keeping the racquet on edge. That one works well to enhance supination and eventual wrist flexion.

A person can load their windup in order to increase the degree of pronation and get a much higher elbow finish. What you want to do is to load/stretch the trapezius muscle (not which set of traps btw) during the windup. Now, the traps are usually associated with neck movement, but they can also elevate your scapula. And what that does is creating a upward rotation of the forearm around the elbow joint, which -- you guessed it -- enhances the supination that you were speaking about.

In practical terms, what you do is feel a stretch around the collarbone. Or, you can aim at the ball with your collarbone. That will key off this effect, and you'll see a higher elbow finish.

One of the side effects of this is that the racquet drop for me is not just about gravity - I kinda force it back some also. What are your thoughts on this?

Generally not ideal. My guess is that your racquet drop position is such that your racquet is behind your back, rather than behind the right side of your back.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

...

One of the side effects of this is that the racquet drop for me is not just about gravity - I kinda force it back some also. What are your thoughts on this?

I musch prefer the gravity "feeling". After I let go of the racquet with the non-dom hand (for FH strokes), using a loose grip and gravity yileds a much better sense of where the racquet head is (and its orientation to some extent). If the grip is too tight or the racquet head is forced down, one is not able to "feel" the racuet head.

 

[bhupaes]

Oh no doubt -- you're talking about executing the upward swing while keeping the racquet on edge. That one works well to enhance supination and eventual wrist flexion.

A person can load their windup in order to increase the degree of pronation and get a much higher elbow finish. What you want to do is to load/stretch the trapezius muscle (not which set of traps btw) during the windup. Now, the traps are usually associated with neck movement, but they can also elevate your scapula. And what that does is creating a upward rotation of the forearm around the elbow joint, which -- you guessed it -- enhances the supination that you were speaking about.

In practical terms, what you do is feel a stretch around the collarbone. Or, you can aim at the ball with your collarbone. That will key off this effect, and you'll see a higher elbow finish.

Thanks, will give it a shot next time on court!

Generally not ideal. My guess is that your racquet drop position is such that your racquet is behind your back, rather than behind the right side of your back.

I musch prefer the gravity "feeling". After I let go of the racquet with the non-dom hand (for FH strokes), using a loose grip and gravity yileds a much better sense of where the racquet head is (and its orientation to some extent). If the grip is too tight or the racquet head is forced down, one is not able to "feel" the racuet head.

I will try some adjustments to this part of the swing and see how it goes. Always something new to learn in these parts - thanks again!

 

[pvaudio]

The poll is flawed. It is a 100% deliberate motion. You're making your body do it on the serve, otherwise everyone would arm their serve. If you're taught the method, however, then it is the only way that you can serve and do it autonomically as you're implying. So no matter what, you can't win with your poll. If you are using a pancake grip serve, then you aren't pronating and then starting to do so is obviously deliberate. If you're taught pronation from the get go, or start with the "back scratch" serve position (which I personally hate because that position is along the same lines: if you're serving properly, then your body automatically drops the racquet back without you thinking about it and only on high speed footage do you see yourself do it), then the movement is obviously going to be done unconsciously.

 

[tricky]

So no matter what, you can't win with your poll. If you are using a pancake grip serve, then you aren't pronating and then starting to do so is obviously deliberate.

That's a fair point. The unstated assumption is that a service motion is like a throwing or pitching motion. If a person doesn't start from that assumption, then that needs to be learned first before moving onto pronation. In other words, sock drills.

 

[pvaudio]

That's a fair point. The unstated assumption is that a service motion is like a throwing or pitching motion. If a person doesn't start from that assumption, then that needs to be learned first before moving onto pronation. In other words, sock drills.

My point exactly, which makes the poll null. Pronation is a natural movement when throwing things. You don't have to be taught how to do that. Applying that while hitting the most difficult and most unique shot in a sport while having a 12oz 2 1/4 foot bar at the end of your arm is not natural to most people. You need to be taught that it's proper service motion. Therefore, if you're already a server who knows how to serve properly, then the wrist snap is completely autonomic. If you DON'T know how to serve properly, then the wrist snap will be completely deliberate.

 

[tricky]

Therefore, if you're already a server who knows how to serve properly, then the wrist snap is completely autonomic. If you DON'T know how to serve properly, then the wrist snap will be completely deliberate.

But then that goes back to the original question, whether it is desirable to isolate the forearm pronation and wrist flexion during the last 1/5 of the serve, as part of the education of the throwing motion. Or whether it is preferable to reinforce a big picture of the serve as a throwing motion, pointing out that the pronated finish will be your reward for having the throwing motion down. That it "just happens."

I think the underlying issue of the poll is whether it's preferable (or merely constructive) to learn the serve finish-to-start, rather than start-to-finish.

I personally take a very purist perspective on this issue, but most people don't.

 

[pvaudio]

But then that goes back to the original question, whether it is desirable to isolate the forearm pronation and wrist flexion during the last 1/5 of the serve, as part of the education of the throwing motion. Or whether it is preferable to reinforce a big picture of the serve as a throwing motion, pointing out that the pronated finish will be your reward for having the throwing motion down. That it "just happens."

I think the underlying issue of the poll is whether it's preferable (or merely constructive) to learn the serve finish-to-start, rather than start-to-finish.

I personally take a very purist perspective on this issue, but most people don't.

I personally don't like the "throwing motion" analogy since throwing a baseball really isn't an accurate descriptor as to what is happening during a tennis serve because the way that you throw a baseball, whether it's throwing it straight up into the air is not similar to the way you accelerate your racquet head through the serve. Pronation is a bio-anatomical term for a specific motion using specific muscles. You are using the same muscles in both movements, but that's about where the similarities end.

Your body only gets into position to hit a proper serve with specific body mechanics that a throw doesn't share, whether throwing to the sky or not. I DO agree that it's a good tip for visualization of how the serve works, but the mechanics aren't the same. There are hundreds of movements that use pronation but the tennis serve pronation is specific to itself.

With that said, the pronation is the most important part of the serve and I personally feel that it should be taught first instead of the pancake serve just to start points. You get that motion when you see drills where starting from the back scratch position, you accelerate upwards and have the racquet land flush on a wall or curtain. So if you're serving properly, pronation is simply part of the motion. If you're being taught how to serve, then you'll need to be shown how to do it properly for tennis because imagining serving as throwing a ball doesn't yield the same results as imagining serving with a racquet. The drill I just described is for accelerating to contact, which is pretty much a throw, but that's only half of the pronation motion for a serve as the racquet still has half of its rotation to do.

Try it for yourself: pick up a racquet and try to do the same motion that you would if throwing something. What you're going to find is that when you're done with your "throw", your racquet will either be in the palm away position or the palm will be facing the side of your head. The serve pronation ends with the racquet facing down with the hitting side having turned 180 degrees. You release a ball halfway through the motion aka when your palm is facing away from you, not facing away from your face as in a serve motion. So the point is, yes, they share the same muscles and anatomical movement. However, the mechanics of a throw and a tennis wrist snap are fundamentally different things and need to be taught as such.

 

[thebuffman]

I think the underlying issue of the poll is whether it's preferable (or merely constructive) to learn the serve finish-to-start, rather than start-to-finish.

that is exactly what the poll is after tricky. i think people are reading too far past the point of the poll which is still okay for discussion purposes. in my opinion i think it is sad that the instructor on the tennis channel speaks to a greater populace than dougherty. at one point in my serve education and after watching the tennis channel, i was standing at the service line with a bucket of balls pronating into the adjacent service box. THANK THE GOOD LORD for The Serve Doctor. Dougherty has helped me to concentrate more on a looser serve. It is a work in progress after muscling the ball for months on end and having to get that mess out of my system.

Today for instance at league practice we were playing doubles and I was struggling with my serve. Before I came across Pat, when I struggled I would concentrate on pronating sooner and it always seemed to bring more consistent results but it lead to more muscling of the serve. Today while struggling with my serve, I concentrated on timing: when to bring the elbow to an abrupt stop. After a while my serve started dropping in as I felt the racquet head slamming into the ball with a very loose arm throwing it. My forearm rolled past my elbow and pronated on its own annulling any instance of muscling the ball.

Try it for yourself: pick up a racquet and try to do the same motion that you would if throwing something. What you're going to find is that when you're done with your "throw", your racquet will either be in the palm away position or the palm will be facing the side of your head.

i respectfully disagree pvaudio. no matter which sport (tennis, football, baseball), a throwing motion WHEN YOU LEAD WITH THE ELBOW will always result in pronation IF you abruptly retract the elbow. it is this motion that creates a whipping motion.

 

[thebuffman]

Images of QB pronation from windup to finish

thought i would add some great pics of the qb motion from windup to full pronated follow-through. imagine a racquet in their hand instead of a football and imagine the chest pointing skyward instead of on a horizontal plane and you will see the identical image of a tennis serve.



i note however that one fundamental difference with tennis than other throwing motions is the tennis serve is resisting the opening of the chest restraining it from facing the net for as long as possible whereas other sports open the chest a lot more readily. arm pronation is identical as far as i am concerned. notice how the free arm stays tucked in to help resist the forward momentum of the body and elbow such that all of the energy becomes directed into the whipping forearm and wrist. note also how the body remains in a 'cylinder' as pat promotes which lends to better energy efficiency just like the serve.

 

[pvaudio]

i respectfully disagree pvaudio. no matter which sport (tennis, football, baseball), a throwing motion WHEN YOU LEAD WITH THE ELBOW will always result in pronation IF you abruptly retract the elbow. it is this motion that creates a whipping motion.

That was the entire point of my post. The motion is a listed anatomical motion. How it is used, however, depends on the application. You use pronation when you turn the volume down on something. You use it when you turn the key to shut off your car. If you're a lefty, you use it to check the time on your watch. Each motion is using the same muscles, but each is using them in a different way to a different means. The point is that throwing a football is not the same motion as throwing a baseball, and is definitely not the same motion as serving.

That's where the issue lies, and it's mostly in the semantics. Pronation as it is applied in the tennis world is unique to the tennis world. Any counter clockwise rotation of your forearm is pronation (right arm, clockwise for left arm). I don't consider making my shower hotter to involve the same motion as I do when serving down the T. So my point still stands: pronation as it applies in tennis needs to be taught, thus making it deliberate. Once taught, it become autonomic. You're focusing on a single part of a very complex process, the serve motion, and comparing the whole motion to that of other sports when they don't apply to one another.

So, to clarify: yes, a baseball throw and a tennis serve do both employ pronation. The mechanics of a baseball throw and a tennis serve are not alike because there are so many other factors and components to each that focusing on a single aspect is insufficient. What ultimately determines the usage is mainly a function of the orientation of the hand before, during and after the pronation. In the serve, baseball throw and football throw, each is different even though at a given instance, all three use a common motion.

 

[OHBH]

Naturally, they're both wrong and right.
Some people lock their wrists, and loosenning it is the cure.
Some people focus on using forearm muscles to snap the wrist, and NOT doing that is the cure.
Everyone has different problems.
The only ones who don't are people with great serves...
I say, RELAX the wrist.

EXACTLY

If you arm the ball like most people do you will have to force the wrist snap in order for it to occur. Forcing the wrist snap would help inhibit the arm from moving too far. If you keep the upper arm from moving too far forward the wrist snap will happen automatically.

The advice that works best all depends on how the player is screwing up.

Personally i do like the serve doctor more because that little tip on TC is just ridonkulous

 

[JediMindTrick]

I thought pronation and wrist snap are two different things, and pronation is deliberate and wrist snap is passive.

You guys are confusing me.

 

[pvaudio]

thought i would add some great pics of the qb motion from windup to full pronated follow-through. imagine a racquet in their hand instead of a football and imagine the chest pointing skyward instead of on a horizontal plane and you will see the identical image of a tennis serve.



i note however that one fundamental difference with tennis than other throwing motions is the tennis serve is resisting the opening of the chest restraining it from facing the net for as long as possible whereas other sports open the chest a lot more readily. arm pronation is identical as far as i am concerned. notice how the free arm stays tucked in to help resist the forward momentum of the body and elbow such that all of the energy becomes directed into the whipping forearm and wrist. note also how the body remains in a 'cylinder' as pat promotes which lends to better energy efficiency just like the serve.

That's wonderful, but how is that possibly important to the overall picture? Every other aspect is different. By your reasoning, a baseball player could be taught how to pitch better by imagining throwing a football or serving in tennis just because a small motion is shared in all three sports.

 

[GuyClinch]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought pronation and wrist snap are two different things, and pronation is deliberate and wrist snap is passive.

You guys are confusing me.


^^^Don't worry about it. Pronation is not automatic. If you didn't pronate forcibly you would hit the ball with the side of your racquet.

Any decent coach will tell his students to pronate more if they sending their overheads long - and this is easily accomplished by almost all the students I have seen. I have never heard anyone say OMG pronation is "automatic" I can't do that...

This board has some good servers who have incorporated pronation so throughly into their motion that they don't have to think about it.. So they claim its automatic. But all of them could probably do the drill where you hit the ball with the SIDE of your racquet.

When your starting out you DO think about it. Football players will drill on just pronation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoFosDCqTJM

But no one things Tom Brady is out there throwing the ball around going OK pronate now. LMAO.

Another tennis example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62fLpqi_qt8

Teaching the serve from finish to the start - is a very effective and established way of learning the serve. Don't believe the hype on this board..

 

[pvaudio]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought pronation and wrist snap are two different things, and pronation is deliberate and wrist snap is passive.

You guys are confusing me.


^^^Don't worry about it. Pronation is not automatic. If you didn't pronate forcibly you would hit the ball with the side of your racquet.

Any decent coach will tell his students to pronate more if they sending their overheads long - and this is easily accomplished by almost all the students I have seen. I have never heard anyone say OMG pronation is "automatic" I can't do that...

This board has some good servers who have incorporated pronation so throughly into their motion that they don't have to think about it.. So they claim its automatic. But all of them could probably do the drill where you hit the ball with the SIDE of your racquet.

When your starting out you DO think about it. Football players will drill on just pronation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoFosDCqTJM

But no one things Tom Brady is out there throwing the ball around going OK pronate now. LMAO.

Another tennis example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62fLpqi_qt8

Teaching the serve from finish to the start - is a very effective and established way of learning the serve. Don't believe the hype on this board..

That's exactly what I've been going on about the entire time: the poll is completely flawed because it depends on whether or not you know what it is and how to do it. I don't think about snapping my wrist when I serve. It's just become an integral part of it over years of practice. So I am not actively thinking about doing the motion in particular aka it's autonomic, but I am actively doing the motion for a reason which is to accelerate the racquet head and get the ball down into the box aka it's deliberate. It's 100% semantics and viewpoint.

 

[tricky]

Again, this is just a poll and there's divergent ways to learn/teach the serve.

Football players will drill on just pronation.

Actually, that's a good point of distinction between throwing and service motions.

When throwing a baseball or any ball, the fingers come into play. This enables the wrist flexors to active release, and thus wrist flexion is active. As a result, it's desirable to work on that portion of the throw.

i note however that one fundamental difference with tennis than other throwing motions is the tennis serve is resisting the opening of the chest restraining it from facing the net for as long as possible whereas other sports open the chest a lot

Yeah, that's an element of the cartwheel motion. The cartwheel throwing motion itself is unique to tennis; there isn't just a upward motion, but a pivot around the left hip. When it's executed correctly, you always end up with a pronated finish, almost regardless of the grip itself. You'd actually have to work much harder to hit the ball with the edge of the racquet.

The cartwheel motion is not easy to learn, because there isn't many other examples. I didn't really understand it (esp. the pivot motion around the left hip) until I read Brian Gordon's articles.

 

[drakulie]

Pronation is a natural movement when throwing things. You don't have to be taught how to do that.

Although pronation "could be" natural to some when picking up a racquet for the first time, for the most part, it is not. Therefore, for the vast majority of people, do have to be taught to pronate.

As you pointed out earlier, many people when first trying to serve hit with a panckake grip. No pronation, and in fact they are mostly "pushing" the ball over the net.

Only when they are taught to put the racquet in their hand in a continental grip, and they adjust so they are not hitting the ball with the edge of the frame, do they begin to pronate in order to meet the ball with the string bed, rather than the edge of the frame. Therefore, it is taught.

 

[pvaudio]

Although pronation "could be" natural to some when picking up a racquet for the first time, for the most part, it is not. Therefore, for the vast majority of people, do have to be taught to pronate.

As you pointed out earlier, many people when first trying to serve hit with a panckake grip. No pronation, and in fact they are mostly "pushing" the ball over the net.

Only when they are taught to put the racquet in their hand in a continental grip, and they adjust so they are not hitting the ball with the edge of the frame, do they begin to pronate in order to meet the ball with the string bed, rather than the edge of the frame. Therefore, it is taught.

Um, that's exactly what I've been saying for the past two pages :lol: . My point was that no one needs to be taught how to throw a ball which happens to involve pronation. My point is that as it applies to tennis is NOT a natural ability and differs completely from other "throwing" motions due to the complexity of the entire stroke.

 

[drakulie]

My point was that no one needs to be taught how to throw a ball which happens to involve pronation.

I disagree. To throw a baseball appropriately, one does have to be taught. If not, they end up throwing it in the same manner they would try to serve (pushing it).

Ever heard of the expression, "You throw like a girl"? Those are all people who haven't been taught how to throw appropriately.

 

[tricky]

To throw a baseball appropriately, one does have to be taught.

Yeah, I have to agree with this. When I was a kid, I didn't realize I had a hitch in my pitching motion, because I always copied Sandy Koufax's high kicking motion. Which when done incorrectly threw off my balance.

 

[GuyClinch]

^^^Not only that but while most kids can throw a baseball a ton can be done to help them learn how to pitch.

I'd say the major difference though is that guys with pretty good arms will still serve with a pancake style because they mentally don't make the "connection" between serving and the pronation movement you make when you throw. To them what the serve doctor calls 'long arming" or what I would call "pancaking" is what makes more sense mentally. And actually if your big and strong enough you can still overpower people with a pancake serve (even if not overpowering GOOD players)..

FWIW I think Buffman is innaccurate in how he views the serve doctor. The serve doctor has drills where you practice an abbreviated serve against a fence. This is practicing pronation. Its not that much different then the "serving is snap" guy on the tennis channel. Its a better drill. Here is a better drill - that gets people started.

Here is the McLennan drill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpxF4M_bKZ4&feature=related


Anyway, once you built up your service action then yeah you don't have to really think about it. But you CAN if you want to bring down your serve a little quicker you might think about pronating a little more.

Brad Gilbert has a drill where you try to snap the ball down on your side of the court and then bounce it over the net. Pronating alot is way to do that..

 

[r2473]

no matter which sport (tennis, football, baseball), a throwing motion WHEN YOU LEAD WITH THE ELBOW will always result in pronation IF you abruptly retract the elbow. it is this motion that creates a whipping motion.

Unless you throw (or serve) like a girl

 

[thebuffman]

Unless you throw (or serve) like a girl

say what you want but my serve practice regiment's sole purpose is to get me to the place where i serve like a girl. because my pathetic 85mph serve is utterly ridiculous.

 

[pvaudio]

I disagree. To throw a baseball appropriately, one does have to be taught. If not, they end up throwing it in the same manner they would try to serve (pushing it).

Ever heard of the expression, "You throw like a girl"? Those are all people who haven't been taught how to throw appropriately.

Okay, you're missing the point entirely. Yes, you need to be taught how to throw a baseball properly. You also need to be taught how to throw a football properly. The point is that throwing something, whether it's a ball or a bag of potato chips involves pronation, which is why I'm emphasizing that simply stating that a serve is like a throw because they both involve pronation is far too short-sighted to be accurate since pronation of the wrist occurs all the time during things that you were never formally taught how to do.

 

[sennoc]

If you didn't pronate forcibly you would hit the ball with the side of your racquet.

^ These are the most important words in this thread. This is a real role of pronation at serves - it is not a source of additional power nor rotation (perfectly opposite to forehands, what leads to misconceptions). It's role is just turning racquet's head, nothing more.

This is a consequence of specific orientation of the plane of racquet's head. In the early phase of stroke, axis of forearm and racquet's head are in the same plane, so you have to turn racquet's head to hit the ball with strings.

The most horrible misconception at serves is that pronation at serves is a source of additional energy. That's totally not true. But it is true that without pronation you are unable to increase energy at impact.

Is it a contradiction?

No, just physics and biomechanics. It's easier to increase speed of racquet's head if you hold the racquet as a hammer - and that's what proffesional players do. But if you accelerate in this way, you have to turn your racquet's head just before stroke. This is where pronation comes on the stage.

So, once again: pronation at serves is not a source of additional energy, but it is a method which guarantees the higher efficiency of other muscles.

 

[drakulie]

The point is that throwing something, whether it's a ball or a bag of potato chips involves pronation, which is why I'm emphasizing that simply stating that a serve is like a throw because they both involve pronation is far too short-sighted to be accurate since pronation of the wrist occurs all the time during things that you were never formally taught how to do.

In regards with the bolded part, I disagree. Go back and read my posts. When someone pushes the racquet forward to get the serve into the service box, they don't pronate. They are pushing their hand forward (palm facing the net). Hence, whay I made the example of, "you throw liek a girl".

 

[Jay_The_Nomad]

Deliberately snapping your wrist sounds like wrist trouble to me.

I know how the word "natural" has been used to death on these boards, but truly I can't think of a more suitable description than that involving the word "natural".

 

[thebuffman]

So, once again: pronation at serves is not a source of additional energy, but it is a method which guarantees the higher efficiency of other muscles.

i disagree entirely here. pronation in the serve IS a source of additional energy because a rotational force is being introduced at the point of forearm rotation. will hamilton has demonstrated this and so has pat dougherty. pat shows us that maintaining a nice obtuse angle in the forearm's relation to the racquet handle generates more leverage than if the angle was miniscule where he compares the acute angle to holding a screw driver and generating very little leverage. will talks about pronation and shows the new force being introduced when the racquet rotates on the y-axis.

i trust they know what they are talking about.

In regards with the bolded part, I disagree. Go back and read my posts. When someone pushes the racquet forward to get the serve into the service box, they don't pronate. They are pushing their hand forward (palm facing the net). Hence, whay I made the example of, "you throw liek a girl".

very true. i know people who serve with zero pronation. their entire arm is from shoulder to tip of racquet is one big long unit. they get it in play but it has no intimidating pace, spin, or movement.

 

[thebuffman]

this is a direct quote from will hamilton's site: Pronation is one of the most important, yet least understood motions in the tennis serve. Serve pronation is critically important technique that allows you to accelerate your racket head through the tennis ball, adding spin and power. Every high-level tennis player – whether in college or on the pro tour – uses pronation when he serves.

 

[gzhpcu]

Brian Gordon thinks that wrist flexion might be deliberate on the serve:
source: article by John Yandell:
http://www.active.com/tennis/Articles/Federers-Serve-A-Model-of-Perfection.htm?page=4

Now in case any of you think I published that article just because Brian's science seemed to support my qualitative analysis, I have a surprise. Some of Brian's subsequent work, or so he tells me, actually indicates something different. If I understand him correctly he has found that there is definitely some active use or contraction of the muscles in the forward wrist motion. So the wrist movement is not all passive, and may even qualify as some form of "snap."

Apparently, the jury is still out...

 

[sennoc]

i trust they know what they are talking about.

You trust in people.

I trust in physics, logic and scientific data.

Dementeva, one of the best WTA players, former number 2 or 3. She should know how to serve. Will you go to her to learn how to serve?

this is a direct quote from will hamilton's site: Pronation is one of the most important, yet least understood motions in the tennis serve. Serve pronation is critically important technique that allows you to accelerate your racket head through the tennis ball

True.

adding spin and power.

Wrong or bad formulation (in the context of whole phrase). Pronation at serves is a method of gaining more energy due to action of other (than forearm's) muscles. So, precisely, pronation as a movement does not add energy to serves, but without pronation your serves won't be powerful.

For energy, pronation at serves is like a door: you can close it and energy won't flow or you can open it and energy will flow at full speed. But open door does not increase amount of energy.

As I said before, a myth of pronation as a source of additional energy at serves has its roots in forehands and backhands, where pronation is one of three most (and almost equally) important sources of energy. Second source is a fact that if you use pronation at serves your serves are more powerful due to the "door effect".

 

[GuyClinch]

^^^Its not a "myth" LMAO. Hell I bet lots of people can serve bigger then you with just pronation (starting from an abbreviated swing) then you can with your full motion. Where do you get off calling it a "myth".?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJRXL9K8I94

 

[sennoc]

^^^Its not a "myth" LMAO. Hell I bet lots of people can serve bigger then you with just pronation (starting from an abbreviated swing) then you can with your full motion. Where do you get off calling it a "myth".?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJRXL9K8I94

Have you seen my serves? If not, please do not talk about them, because you know nothing. Talk about things you know or do not talk at all - first rule of mature discussion.

Do you understand mechanics of pronation? Really? In my opinion - no, you do not understand it. You show me a movie of a guy who makes strange strokes, totally different from everything we see at real serves. This guy talks about pronation, but his wrist moves ca. 1 m - yeah, "pure" pronation... We hit ball at serves with straight hand, guy on the movie shows bend hand - again, what a demonstration of a real role of pronation at serves! Amazing! Come on, I can hit tennis ball with my wrist only - does it mean that wrist is an important source of energy at serves?

Have you ever seen Federer's serve frame by frame? Where do you see there pronation as a source of energy? Why does he pronate on a such short distance before contact point? Why does he hit the ball in the first half of his pronation movement, not in the second one, when his pronation should be faster? Does he hit with straight or bend arm?

How can pronation be a source of energy if you hit the ball with straight hand? Explain it to me, you know, like physicist to physicist. I want to know. In physics experiment decides. Take the racquet in your hand, horizontally, hand straight, put ball on the centre of racquet's head and then pronate. I want to see that amazing speed of your hit. I assume that - in your opinion - ball will fly vertically, high into the sky - because pronation is a huge source of energy at serves and we emulate these conditions here. Could you make a movie for me? I want to see your experiment.

I could show you scientific papers where people talk about 30% ball speed increase at serves due to pronation. At the same time I could show you other scientific papers where people talk about 0% at kick serves and 10% at flat serves. In my opinion papers mentioned as first have strong methodological mistakes - guys measure ball speed at serves with and without pronation, compare them without biomechanical understanding and voila - "pronation adds power!". Talking about "important role of pronation" without analysis of speed and acceleration of other joints in kinematic chain? Come on...

That's why pronation at serves as a huge source of energy is a popular myth.

 

[GuyClinch]

How can pronation be a source of energy if you hit the ball with straight hand? Explain it to me, you know, like physicist to physicist. I want to know. In physics experiment decides. Take the racquet in your hand, horizontally, hand straight, put ball on the centre of racquet's head and then pronate. I want to see that amazing speed of your hit. I assume that - in your opinion - ball will fly vertically, high into the sky - because pronation is a huge source of energy at serves and we emulate these conditions here. Could you make a movie for me? I want to see your experiment.

It's a second lever. Duh. Maybe watch this if you don't understand. For a so called "physicist" you don't seem to understand a whole lot about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpxF4M_bKZ4

You talk big but honestly you don't make any sense. You can swing with just your shoulder and that adds power. By adding in that second source of leverage you add even more power.

You add in the swing - and the rolling of the arm and bam alot more power.

 

[GuyClinch]

Since you don't believe any top coaches..

How about this:

jin cha


jin, i haven't seen that website, but maybe they've done some analysis to prove me wrong. the only evidence i have is that my serve is about 120 miles per hour, and if i only use my wrist, i can serve about 110 miles per hour. so i still believe it's where the most power comes from on my serve. as for the luxilon big banger string, i haven't had any problems with it, if you have to string it tight, then just use what feels comfortable to you.



^^^Written by James Blake..

 

[sennoc]

It's a second lever. Duh. Maybe watch this if you don't understand. For a so called "physicist" you don't seem to understand a whole lot about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpxF4M_bKZ4

You talk big but honestly you don't make any sense. You can swing with just your shoulder and that adds power. By adding in that second source of leverage you add even more power.

You add in the swing - and the rolling of the arm and bam alot more power.

A very typical movie. Guy shows things right, explains wrong.

Blake? As far as I know there are no physicists between top tennis players. There are no biomechanics specialists there, too. What a good selection of scientific knowledge you have, I'm really impressed.

I do not see answers for my questions (what a surprise...). I suppose you think about them, so I add a few more. Why does Federer start to pronate at serves when the angle between his forearm and arm is ca. 45 degrees? Why so late? Why does he hit at almost 0 degrees? Pronation is the best source of energy at 90 degrees, when the radius of rotation is the largest, so why does Federer act like an idiot? Is he so stupid? Does he have a weak serve?

...and I'm still waiting for your movie. Experiment waits, and waits, and waits... It's so easy to make, why don't you make it, man? Show me power of pronation at serves!

BTW be a little nicer. It's so easy to write that someone talks without sense. Almost as easy as write that someone is uneducated.