[POLL] Which H2H streak among the big three was most impressive?

[Winner Sinner]

Nadal over Federer between 2008 and 2009

Monte Carlo 2008 final
Nadal beats Federer 7-5 7-5

Hamburg 2008 final
Nadal beats Federer 7-5 6-7 6-3

Roland Garros final 2008
Nadal beats Federer 6-1 6-3 6-0

Wimbledon final 2008
Nadal beats Federer 6-4 6-4 6-7 6-7 9-7

2009 Australian Open final
Nadal beats Federer 7-5 3-6 7-6 3-6 6-2

Djokovic on Nadal between 2011 and 2012

Indian Wells Final 2011
Djokovic beats Nadal 4-6 6-3 6-2

Miami 2011 Final
Djokovic beats Nadal 4-6 6-3 7-6

Final Madrid 2011
Djokovic beats Nadal 7-5 6-4

Final Rome 2011
Djokovic beats Nadal 6-4 6-4

Wimbledon final 2011
Djokovic beats Nadal 6-4 6-1 1-6 6-3

US Open Final 2011
Djokovic beats Nadal 6-2 6-4 6-7 6-1

2011 Australian Open final
Djokovic beats Nadal 5-7 6-4 6-2 6-7 7-5

Federer on Nadal between 2015 and 2017

Basel 2015 final
Federer beats Nadal 6-3 5-7 6-3

Australian Open final 2017
Federer beats Nadal 6-4 3-6 6-1 3-6 6-3

R16 Indian Wells 2017
Federer beats Nadal 6-2 6-3

Miami 2017 Final
Federer beats Nadal 6-3 6-4

Shanghai 2017 Final
Federer beats Nadal 6-4 6-3

 

[Winner Sinner]

I voted for Djokovic over Nadal.

Djokovic possessed Nadal on 3 different surfaces, including two on clay friendly to the Spaniard.
But even the stage, apart from Roland Garros, in that streak he beat him in 3 different major finals.

The one Djokovic against Nadal between Indian Wells 2011 and Australian Open 2012 is the streak par excellence of tennis in the h2h.

 

[serbiavic]

Definitely not the first one.

 

[Hitman]

This isn't close, it's Djokovic over Nadal, because the streak consists of seven matches.

 

[GoatNo1]

This isn't close, it's Djokovic over Nadal, because the streak consists of seven matches.

on all surfaces in 7 big finals. period is between rafas 2 most successful seasons, 2010 and 2013 and if not for nole, 2011 would be rafas most successful season, so it was peak rafa! it was 3 matches in the middle of rafas only 5 consecutive finals streak in his career.

3 (60%) of rafas matches vs fed was on clay and only one (20% each) on HC and gress. all feds matches vs rafa was on HC.

 

[messiahrobins]

I voted for Djokovic over Nadal.

Djokovic possessed Nadal on 3 different surfaces, including two on clay friendly to the Spaniard.
But even the stage, apart from Roland Garros, in that streak he beat him in 3 different major finals.

The one Djokovic against Nadal between Indian Wells 2011 and Australian Open 2012 is the streak par excellence of tennis in the h2h.

I agree with you on this. IW 2011 Final i think was a hugely significant match. Had Nadal won that i think he would beat Djokovic at the two clay masters that year and won Wimbledon and USO that year.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Djokovic Nadal. Credit to Novak he solved the Nadal puzzle that year and outplayed him every time.

 

[The Blond Blur]

Joker’s streak, RAFA’s streak, Fed’s streak.

There was one match for all of 2015 and then an entire season before Fedal played again. RAFA over Fed in 08-09 was really impressive too, but Joker’s streak had the most matches in succession.

Edit: After reading @Third Serve post have not now been swayed by his argument. 08-09 Fed maintained a higher level of play and Fedal produced some of the best/greatest matches of all time.

 

[Kralingen]

Rafa over Fed because he beat the best player

 

[The Blond Blur]

on all surfaces in 7 big finals. period is between rafas 2 most successful seasons, 2010 and 2013 and if not for nole, 2011 would be rafas most successful season, so it was peak rafa! it was 3 matches in the middle of rafas only 5 consecutive finals streak in his career.

3 (60%) of rafas matches vs fed was on clay and only one (20% each) on HC and gress. all feds matches vs rafa was on HC.

Lol, that’s not how it works Otherwise you’d have to believe that 2021 Jokers is > 2011 Jokers since he came 1 match short of the CYGS. 2011 was definitely Primedal, but he peaked higher in other seasons like 08 on clay and grass for example.

 

[Winner Sinner]

I don't know if Nadal 2011 could be considered a version at its peak, there are no tools to say.
Just as I reply to the question that without Djokovic it remains to be seen whether he would have actually won all those tournaments he lost in the final against the Serbian.
Being the defeated finalist does not necessarily mean being the potential winner in a parallel world where the winner does not participate.
I always give the example of the 2011 US Open where it remains to be demonstrated that the Nadal defeated by Djokovic in the final would have beaten the Federer defeated in the semi-final by Djokovic.
In fact, I'd put my two cents on Federer.

Having said this, the certain thing is that if Nadal 2011 was not at his peak, he was not that far away according to a certain logic.
He was 25 years old, just coming off the season where he had collected the most slams in a single season in his entire career.
So what rules out that Nadal 2011 wasn't at his peak?

Nadal fans don't want to support this theory because it would demonstrate Djokovic peaks>>>Nadal peaks, or is there more to it?

Having said that, returning to the topic.
Obviously Djokovic beating Nadal between 2011 and 2012 is winning the poll by a landslide.
It is said that it is a one-sided survey, perhaps, but I would not underestimate Nadal who between 2008 and 2009 beat Federer all those times, including in two of the Swiss' historic fortresses such as Wimbledon and the Australian Open, both in the final, in addition to the memorable lesson he inflicted on him in the Roland Garros final, I think the greatest humiliation in the history of the matches between the big three.
Djokovic's streak over Nadal between 2011 and 2012 is memorable/legendary, but Nadal's streak over Federer is also impressive.
Less so that of Federer over Nadal, although it must also be contextualised, that is, at the age of 36 Federer still had the strength to overturn the matchup which until 2017 saw him dominated by Nadal.
Ok he won all the challenges on a surface favorable to him, the fact remains that above all the two victories in the 2017 sunshine double will remain in history.
Here is the lesson that Federer inflicted on Nadal in Indian Wells in 2017 almost equals the one that Nadal gave him in Paris about 9 years earlier.

 

[Winner Sinner]

Lol, that’s not how it works Otherwise you’d have to believe that 2021 Jokers is > 2011 Jokers since he came 1 match short of the CYGS. 2011 was definitely Primedal, but he peaked higher in other seasons like 08 on clay and grass for example.

Given that I basically agree in saying that there are no tools to demonstrate that Nadal 2011 was at his peak, however the comparison you make with Djokovic 2021 is not very relevant since the competition faced by Djokovic 2021 was totally different compared to his 2011 and 2015 versions, without considering that in any case in terms of consistency Djokovic 2011 and 2015 was clearly superior to Djokovic 2021 who over the course of a season had to think about managing his forces more, concentrating them especially in the slams.
Instead, Nadal in 2011 had more or less the same competition as in 2010, as is obvious given that only 12 months have passed.
And the 2010 Nadal is considered by many to be Nadal at his peak.
The real difference between 2010 and 2011 was the unstoppable growth of the Serbian.

However, in the 2011 sunshine double Nadal reached one of his peaks at hard court level, so much so that those challenges with a Djokovic in full streak were both balanced.
In the following clay season Djokovic had simply already begun to get into his head.

 

[The Blond Blur]

Given that I basically agree in saying that there are no tools to demonstrate that Nadal 2011 was at his peak, however the comparison you make with Djokovic 2021 is not very relevant since the competition faced by Djokovic 2021 was totally different compared to his 2011 and 2015 versions, without considering that in any case in terms of consistency Djokovic 2011 and 2015 was clearly superior to Djokovic 2021 who over the course of a season had to think about managing his forces more, concentrating them especially in the slams.
Instead, Nadal in 2011 had more or less the same competition as in 2010, as is obvious given that only 12 months have passed.
And the 2010 Nadal is considered by many to be Nadal at his peak.
The real difference between 2010 and 2011 was the unstoppable growth of the Serbian.

However, in the 2011 sunshine double Nadal reached one of his peaks at hard court level, so much so that those challenges with a Djokovic in full streak were both balanced.
In the following clay season Djokovic had simply already begun to get into his head.

You missed the point completely then. The point I was making is that a lot of Joker fans call 2011 RAFA’s peak because he “would have won X amount of titles”. By that logic, 2021 Joker who was 1 match away from the most difficult achievement in tennis can be considered his “peak”. And they don’t just do this with RAFA either. A lot of them have been calling 2015 Fed’s peak for years now. I just find it funny how the remaining Big 3 fanbases are told when their guy’s peaks were. It’s all very agenda driven.

And the difference between 2010 RAFA vs 2011 RAFA is consistency vs peak. He was more consistent in 2011, but he peaked higher in 2010. He was much better on clay in 2010 where he only dropped 2 sets the entire CC season. And he definitely peaked higher at the USO and the YEC. Wimby is closer, but his performance in the SF vs Murray was a better overall match from both guys. Overall he played a more aggressive game in 2010. It made him more inconsistent but when his game was firing on all cylinders he was tougher to beat.

I already mentioned the sunshine double in 2011, but those performances were below IW 07, AO 09, and USO 10 etc…And I actually don’t consider 2010 to be RAFA’s peak. That would be between Hamburg 08-Madrid 09 where he had his most concentrated peak level of play.

 

[RS]

The last 2 hurt tennis

 

[Winner Sinner]

You missed the point completely then. The point I was making is that a lot of Joker fans call 2011 RAFA’s peak because he “would have won X amount of titles”. By that logic, 2021 Joker who was 1 match away from the most difficult achievement in tennis can be considered his “peak”. And they don’t just do this with RAFA either. A lot of them have been calling 2015 Fed’s peak for years now. I just find it funny how the remaining Big 3 fanbases are told when their guy’s peaks were. It’s all very agenda driven.

And the difference between 2010 RAFA vs 2011 RAFA is consistency vs peak. He was more consistent in 2011, but he peaked higher in 2010. He was much better on clay in 2010 where he only dropped 2 sets the entire CC season. And he definitely peaked higher at the USO and the YEC. Wimby is closer, but his performance in the SF vs Murray was a better overall match from both guys. Overall he played a more aggressive game in 2010. It made him more inconsistent but when his game was firing on all cylinders he was tougher to beat.

I already mentioned the sunshine double in 2011, but those performances were below IW 07, AO 09, and USO 10 etc…And I actually don’t consider 2010 to be RAFA’s peak. That would be between Hamburg 08-Madrid 09 where he had his most concentrated peak level of play.

I understood perfectly what you meant, I'm simply saying that the 2011 Nadal who lost all those finals against Djokovic was coming off a 2010 which, if not the best season of his career, was the second, so the comparison becomes reliable because the competition was similar, and it was primarily the Djokovic factor that reduced it compared to 2010.

Instead, the 2021 Djokovic is incomparable to its 2011 and 2015 versions precisely because in the meantime all those years have passed and the competition has changed drastically.

One automatically suspects that the main difference between the 2010 Nadal, capable of winning 3 slams plus everything else, and the 2011 Nadal, who won only one slam, losing 2 slam finals plus 4 others at masters 1000 level, was due to Djokovic's different level.
If Djokovic had not been there or had remained the player of 2010, it cannot be ruled out that Nadal would have put together a season comparable to the best of his career in terms of big titles brought home.
Then from here to saying that he was actually at his peak, as already mentioned, is a completely different matter.

 

[The Blond Blur]

I understood perfectly what you meant, I'm simply saying that the 2011 Nadal who lost all those finals against Djokovic was coming off a 2010 which, if not the best season of his career, was the second, so the comparison becomes reliable because the competition was similar, and it was primarily the Djokovic factor that reduced it compared to 2010.

Instead, the 2021 Djokovic is incomparable to its 2011 and 2015 versions precisely because in the meantime all those years have passed and the competition has changed drastically.

One automatically suspects that the main difference between the 2010 Nadal, capable of winning 3 slams plus everything else, and the 2011 Nadal, who won only one slam, losing 2 slam finals plus 4 others at masters 1000 level, was due to Djokovic's different level.
If Djokovic had not been there or had remained the player of 2010, it cannot be ruled out that Nadal would have put together a season comparable to the best of his career in terms of big titles brought home.
Then from here to saying that he was actually at his peak, as already mentioned, is a completely different matter.

Except even when you compare RAFA’s level of play outside of his matches vs Joker he still falls short in 2011 vs 2010 in most cases. That’s what so many people can’t get through their thick skulls on this forum. The vast majority of people on here just look at results and call it a day. I actually sit down and will have two windows open side by side and watch two matches that I’m comparing and will look at stats to try and get as full of a picture as possible. Just saying that RAFA could have had a very similar year results wise in 2011 vs 2010 doesn’t tell us anything about level of play.

Fed’s best season was 2006 for example, but I actually think he played at a higher level in 2005 despite losing in the SF in the AO and RG. It’s just the level it took to beat him was astronomically high.

And 2021 is applicable here because there were tons of people on this very forum and commentators across the sport were saying that Joker was playing at his highest level. The man himself was making these claims. Heck, in 2023 people were saying he was better than he was when he was 10 years younger. I saw Joker fans on here say with a straight face that he was volleying at Stefan Edberg’s level in the USO F that year.

 

[Winner Sinner]

Except even when you compare RAFA’s level of play outside of his matches vs Joker he still falls short in 2011 vs 2010 in most cases. That’s what so many people can’t get through their thick skulls on this forum. The vast majority of people on here just look at results and call it a day. I actually sit down and will have two windows open side by side and watch two matches that I’m comparing and will look at stats to try and get as full of a picture as possible. Just saying that RAFA could have had a very similar year results wise in 2011 vs 2010 doesn’t tell us anything about level of play.

Fed’s best season was 2006 for example, but I actually think he played at a higher level in 2005 despite losing in the SF in the AO and RG. It’s just the level it took to beat him was astronomically high.

And 2021 is applicable here because there were tons of people on this very forum and commentators across the sport were saying that Joker was playing at his highest level. The man himself was making these claims. Heck, in 2023 people were saying he was better than he was when he was 10 years younger. I saw Joker fans on here say with a straight face that he was volleying at Stefan Edberg’s level in the USO F that year.

Ok I agree with your reasoning, in fact I myself say that even if Nadal in 2011 without Djokovic had perhaps compiled the most successful season of his career, this does not necessarily mean that he was at his peak.
A bit of the same reasoning I do between Alcaraz 2023 (only one slam) and 2024 (two slams), where for me Alcaraz 2023>Alcaraz 2024.

But I also ask you how much Nadal's repeated defeats against Djokovic in that season could have undermined his psyche in the long run, compromising his level of confidence?

If there had been no Djokovic or if Djokovic had remained the player of 2010, it cannot even be ruled out that Nadal starting to accumulate successes (see sunshine double) would then have been able to express the best level of his career or so.
They are delicate balances, the Djokovic factor in Nadal's 2011 season had an impact and not only in terms of lost finals, but it could also have taken away his confidence.

 

[The Blond Blur]

Ok I agree with your reasoning, in fact I myself say that even if Nadal in 2011 without Djokovic had perhaps compiled the most successful season of his career, this does not necessarily mean that he was at his peak.
A bit of the same reasoning I do between Alcaraz 2023 (only one slam) and 2024 (two slams), where for me Alcaraz 2023>Alcaraz 2024.

But I also ask you how much Nadal's repeated defeats against Djokovic in that season could have undermined his psyche in the long run, compromising his level of confidence?

If there had been no Djokovic or if Djokovic had remained the player of 2010, it cannot even be ruled out that Nadal starting to accumulate successes (see sunshine double) would then have been able to express the best level of his career or so.
They are delicate balances, the Djokovic factor in Nadal's 2011 season had an impact and not only in terms of lost finals, but it could also have taken away his confidence.

I actually agree that 23 Carl played at a higher level than 24 Carl too. The RG SF choke job aside he rebounded nicely at Wimby against a clearly better Joker compared to the Kneeovic he played this year.

As far as the repeated losses to Joker affecting his confidence goes, I think it played a huge part in his decreased level of play…That’s a huge reason why I don’t think 2011 is his peak. Those losses didn’t just affect his performance vs Joker, it affected his performance across the board. And RAFA is hardly the exception there. Joker himself struggled with his level of play after having so many heartbreaking losses in 2012-2014. At one point in time he had a negative W/L in GS Fs and people were calling him the next Ivan Lendl.

I just think it’s crazy to say a guy was at his peak in a given year when said year was sandwiched between two years (2010 and 2012) where he clearly played at a higher level. I think there were times where RAFA went out on court and was more or less expecting to lose to Joker (the USO F was a particularly bad performance). Whereas in say 2012-2013 he looked completely different in his body language when he faced off against the same opponent.

 

[GoatNo1]

 

[GabeT]

Very clear

 

[Mustard]

Wimby is closer, but his performance in the SF vs Murray was a better overall match from both guys. Overall he played a more aggressive game in 2010. It made him more inconsistent but when his game was firing on all cylinders he was tougher to beat.

The 2010 Wimbledon semi final match was tense from both Nadal and Murray throughout, with only a few points making the difference, in Nadal's favour. The 2011 Wimbledon semi final was a total contrast, with Murray being more aggressive, winning the first set and starting the second set well. Murray then missed what was a simple forehand, and he collapsed for nearly 2 sets, as if he had shot his load, and Nadal just routined him. The fourth set was a bit closer, but Murray couldn't recover from what happened early in the second set.

 

[Dropshot777]

I voted for Djokovic over Nadal.

Djokovic possessed Nadal on 3 different surfaces, including two on clay friendly to the Spaniard.
But even the stage, apart from Roland Garros, in that streak he beat him in 3 different major finals.

The one Djokovic against Nadal between Indian Wells 2011 and Australian Open 2012 is the streak par excellence of tennis in the h2h.

Federer was old and still beat Nadal. IMO that kind of problem solving while he was physically unable to run around his backhand constantly in long matches makes the difference.

 

[The Blond Blur]

The 2010 Wimbledon semi final match was tense from both Nadal and Murray throughout, with only a few points making the difference, in Nadal's favour. The 2011 Wimbledon semi final was a total contrast, with Murray being more aggressive, winning the first set and starting the second set well. Murray then missed what was a simple forehand, and he collapsed for nearly 2 sets, as if he had shot his load, and Nadal just routined him. The fourth set was a bit closer, but Murray couldn't recover from what happened early in the second set.

Right, even though 2010 was a straight set win in RAFA’s favor I think it was overall the clearly better match.

 

[Racquet_smash]

Nadal in 2011 was in his prime but if you can name several editions of the same tournaments where he played better he wasn't at his peak.

Same goes for Djokovic in 2013 which i consider peaking only at the start of the year.

About the poll i'd have Djokovic's streak as first a little bit more impressive than Nadal's one over Federer because of the volume of matches won and the fact that he was quite dominant in some of them.

 

[GoatNo1]

Nadal in 2011 was in his prime but if you can name several editions of the same tournaments where he played better he wasn't at his peak.

Same goes for Djokovic in 2013 which i consider peaking only at the start of the year.

About the poll i'd have Djokovic's streak as first a little bit more impressive than Nadal's one over Federer because of the volume of matches won and the fact that he was quite dominant in some of them.

2011 was peak rafa. if he played better some tournaments in some other seasons is not prove to opposite. we are talking about full seasons and all surfaces. if he played some season maybe better at some tournament and some other season at some other tournament but lost to no top players at other other big tournaments (as he did at W in 4-5 years in a row) does not mean that he was not at his peak in 2011 when we talk about peak seasons!


and just for the name it. nole had another one 7-0 streak over rafa, just note as impressive as this one.

and he had an 11-1 (RG14) run that came just after his famous lost at USO13.

 

[weakera]

Rafa looks great here

 

[Racquet_smash]

2011 was peak rafa. f he played better some tournaments in some other seasons is not prove to opposite. we are talking about full seasons and all surfaces. if he played some season maybe better at some tournament and some other season at some other tournament but lost to no top players at other other big tournaments (as he did at W in 4-5 years in a row) does not mean that he was not at his peak in 2011 when we talk about peak seasons!


and just for the name it. nole had another one 7-0 streak over rafa, just note as impressive as this one.

and he had an 11-1 (RG14) run that came just after his famous lost at USO13.

Pick any season from 2008 to 2013 and Nadal would be clearly better than 2011, only difference in 2011 would be he was injury free compared to 2013, 2012 or 2009.

Obviously Nadal was far better in 2010, not even close.

 

[Hitman]

Pick any season from 2008 to 2013 and Nadal would be clearly better than 2011, only difference in 2011 would be he was injury free compared to 2013, 2012 or 2009.

Obviously Nadal was far better in 2010, not even close.

How was 2013 clearly better than 2011, when the dude was straight setted in the first round of Wimbledon in 2013, and in 2011 he was in the final and two sets away from the title?

 

[GoatNo1]

How was 2013 clearly better than 2011, when the dude was straight setted in the first round of Wimbledon in 2013, and in 2011 he was in the final and two sets away from the title?

the fact is that rafa has lost early at W i 4 consecutive seasons from 2012 to 2015 to 100+ ranked players. he did not played in W QF for 6 seasons from 2012 to 2017. he didn played W at all in 2009. in 2013 he did not played AO and he did not played at USO in 2012 and 2014.

in 2010 he played a QF at AO and won another 3 slams. and in 2011 he played QF at AO and played finals at next 3 slams winning RG. the difference was nole vol2 in the finals of W and USO in 2011.
in 2010 rafa played at 3 masters finals and won all of them (all 3 on clay vs dasko, fed and ferrer). in 2011 he played in 5 masters finals and lost 4 (all to nole 2 on clay and 4 on HC) and won 1 (on clay vs ferrer)!

 

[Third Serve]

I picked Djokovic over Nadal first but changed my mind to Nadal over Federer.

Here's why I picked Djokodal first:

- Volume of matches. This is the biggest one.
- Margin of victories (not too many close contests; Novak established firm superiority in most cases)
- Multiple surfaces represented. Healthy balance of clay, HC, and grass matches.

Here's why I switched to Fedal:

Federer played much better in his losing matches and was thus the more impressive opponent. Wimbledon 2008 and AO 2009 are both higher-quality matches from the loser than AO 2012 IMO, and there's really no comparison with the other two Slam matches, W and USO 2011, which were good at times but not outstanding contests. The only truly bad match Fed played in the bunch was the RG 2008 final. Nadal had a few in his 2011 losing streak. IW 2011 was a mediocre match, however good Miami turned out to be. The clay matches were kind of underwhelming. And he only played one good set in the US Open final. Besides the Slam finals in 2008/09, Fed played a decent match at MC and a great one at Hamburg (despite the choking). I think it took more from Nadal to take him down than it took Djokovic to dethrone Nadal, who kind of rolled over for him after the first few matches (especially Miami).

If it was an equal five matches vs. five matches, I'd pick the Fedal one in a heartbeat. With seven vs. five, Djokovic over Nadal is a much more compelling answer, but I still think I have to go to the 2008/09 matches.

Federer over Nadal in 2015/17 is the clear weakest of the three. Nadal played ok at the AO and some parts of the Basel final, but he wasn't like the strongest opponent ever during that time. And all of those matches were on hard courts, one indoors and two (AO, Shanghai) of the other four on a faster surface. No big surface variety like those other two. Still an amazing series of wins considering Fed's large age disadvantage against Nadal, but it's the clear third.

 

[Racquet_smash]

How was 2013 clearly better than 2011, when the dude was straight setted in the first round of Wimbledon in 2013, and in 2011 he was in the final and two sets away from the title?

That's pretty much the only tournament where Nadal did better in 2011. On hard courts and clay courts in 2013 he was a lot better, especially on hcs, and that's despite skipping the Australian Open.

 

[Hitman]

That's pretty much the only tournament where Nadal did better in 2011. On hard courts and clay courts in 2013 he was a lot better, especially on hcs, and that's despite skipping the Australian Open.

So a whole surface. That does not shout out Clearly better to me. You have case for HC which is very debatable and clay.

 

[Racquet_smash]

So a whole surface. That does not shout out Clearly better to me. You have case for HC which is very debatable and clay.

I'm not sure how hc is debatable. Nadal came up with the american swing which almost no player did in the open era, won Indian Wells and had one of his best showings at the Finals.

Yes, it's a surface, but it's really just a single tournament. That would be like saying that Fred was better in 2011 than 2004 because of his much better showing at RG, but it's just cherry picking a single event.

 

[Hitman]

I'm not sure how hc is debatable. Nadal came up with the american swing which almost no player did in the open era, won Indian Wells and had one of his best showings at the Finals.

Yes, it's a surface, but it's really just a single tournament. That would be like saying that Fred was better in 2011 than 2004 because of his much better showing at RG, but it's just cherry picking a single event.

Nadal wins both IW and Miami in 2011 if he doesn't face Djokovic. His Miami performance was as good as it gets. Actually scratch that he might have lost IW 2011 to Federer who has beat him both times he was actually healthy. Nadal faced an injured back Federer in IW 2013 and Cincy 2013. Nadal can be said to be better in 2013 on hard but it is not the clear homerun you are making it out to be. Djokovic himself as you admitted wasn't at his best either in 2013. So while I give you the nod on himn edging out on hard in 2013 he still is not clearly ahead. His win streak is also debatable as I highly doubt he is undefeated until Beijing if he had played AO and Miami, two events which were never kind to him.

 

[Racquet_smash]

Nadal wins both IW and Miami in 2011 if he doesn't face Djokovic. His Miami performance was as good as it gets. Actually scratch that he might have lost IW 2011 to Federer who has beat him both times he was actually healthy. Nadal faced an injured back Federer in IW 2013 and Cincy 2013. Nadal can be said to be better in 2013 on hard but it is not the clear homerun you are making it out to be. Djokovic himself as you admitted wasn't at his best either in 2013. So while I give you the nod on himn edging out on hard in 2013 he still is not clearly ahead. His win streak is also debatable as I highly doubt he is undefeated until Beijing if he had played AO and Miami, two events which were never kind to him.

Nadal in 2011 lost to Ferrer at the Australian which is easily one of the worst losses of his prime years.

Djokovic in 2013 was in his prime years, not quite peak but defeating him back to back at Toronto and USA is not something 2011 Nadal would likely pull off as he was serving 160kmph 2nd serves and had troubles breaking Djokovic who wasn't serving much better in that final.

 

[Hitman]

Nadal in 2011 lost to Ferrer at the Australian which is easily one of the worst losses of his prime years.

Djokovic in 2013 was in his prime years, not quite peak but defeating him back to back at Toronto and USA is not something 2011 Nadal would likely pull off as he was serving 160kmph 2nd serves and had troubles breaking Djokovic who wasn't serving much better in that final.

Nadal hurt his hamstring a few games into that match, that is not a bad a loss at AO 2011. He was simply unfortunate.

Nadal pushed Djokovic hard at Miami 2011, he had the capability to beat him, but Djokovic was simply more clutch. What impacted Nadal was that his confidence went down, his ability to actually play was still very good.

Anyways, like I said, if you want to say Nadal was better on hard court 2013, that is fair enough, I don't argue that, but making out that there was this clear gap in level is a little too much, Nadal where he was losing final set tie breaks to Djokovic such as Miami 2011, he was winning them such as Montreal 2013, the difference is not that huge. Nadal played a little better in 2013, and Djokovic worse.

 

[The Blond Blur]

Lol, how on God’s green earth is RAFA’s 2011 HC performances/results even close to his 2013 season? The only thing remotely close was Miami, outside of that he was better in every way in 2013. Dude got beat by Ivan Dodig in the 2R of Canada…when he got a direct bye.

 

[nolefam_2024]

UTS has done this by using big match GOAT points.

Nadal over Federer between 2008 and 2009

Monte Carlo 2008 final 0.36
Hamburg 2008 final 0.36
Roland Garros final 2008 0.7
Wimbledon final 2008 0.7
2009 Australian Open final 0.66

Total of 2.78 big win GOAT points


Djokovic on Nadal between 2011 and 2012

Indian Wells Final 2011 0.33
Miami 2011 Final 0.34
Final Madrid 2011 0.36
Final Rome 2011 0.35
Wimbledon final 2011 0.74
US Open Final 2011 0.71
2012 Australian Open final 0.69

Total of 3.51 big win GOAT points

Federer on Nadal between 2015 and 2017

Basel 2015 final 0.12
Australian Open final 2017 0.35
R16 Indian Wells 2017 0.0
Miami 2017 Final 0.20
Shanghai 2017 Final 0.33


Total of just 1 big win GOAT point.

 

[nolefam_2024]

UTS formula gives credit to tournaments (slams > masters> small titles etc), ranking of opponent (nadal in 2017 far below nadal in 2011) , round (QF/SF/F? ) and ELO points (current level of a player).

Nadal is underrated but its 5 matches only. Federer is overrated as he played just one of his five in BO5.

Djokovic is ahead of Nadal even match to match.

2011 Wimbledon final > 2008 RG final
2011 USO final > 2008 Wimbledon AO final
2012 AO final > 2009 AO final

Then 4 BO3 which are higher than 2 BO3 for Nadal.

Both Djokovic and Nadal BUCKED THE TREND. Federer not so much.

 

[The Blond Blur]

UTS formula gives credit to tournaments (slams > masters> small titles etc), ranking of opponent (nadal in 2017 far below nadal in 2011) , round (QF/SF/F? ) and ELO points (current level of a player).

Nadal is underrated but its 5 matches only. Federer is overrated as he played just one of his five in BO5.

Djokovic is ahead of Nadal even match to match.

2011 Wimbledon final > 2008 RG final
2011 USO final > 2008 Wimbledon AO final
2012 AO final > 2009 AO final

Then 4 BO3 which are higher than 2 BO3 for Nadal.

Both Djokovic and Nadal BUCKED THE TREND. Federer not so much.

Well that’s how you know it’s useless then…

 

[nolefam_2024]

Well that’s how you know it’s useless then…

Its not useless. It is unemotional.

You can leave emotions out. Talk facts.

 

[nolefam_2024]

When dealing with someone using emotions to argue, try to remain calm, actively listen to understand their perspective, acknowledge their feelings without getting drawn into their emotional state, and focus on addressing the issue logically by presenting facts and reasoning instead of getting caught up in their emotional appeals; if necessary, set boundaries and consider taking a break from the conversation to de-escalate the situation.

 

[Turning Pro]

I don't get why people think 2011 Rafa was particularly good in terms of mentality or clutchness. Never mind his pathetic serve. His best tennis was IW and Miami.

Yeah sure peak Rafa was 2011 where he was taken to 4 sets and looked rough vs Murray at Wimby whereas he DESTROYED him in 2010, compare the performances, it's night and day.

Rg 2010 vs 2011 was NIGHT AND DAY.

US OPEN 2010 SERVE 135MPH Rafa vs 2011 is again NIGHT AND DAY.

Look at how bad his 2011 Rg was even though he won it, literally everyone on these forums and commentators were saying how vulnerable and not great he was. I'm actually surprised he won it but he did turn it on a little bit from the Quarters onwards but John freaking Isner took him to one of his rare 5 setters at Rg.

I'll even put out a new thread and poll if necessary lol

 

[The Blond Blur]

Its not useless. It is unemotional.

You can leave emotions out. Talk facts.

I don’t need skewed numbers or “weighted statistics” to see which were the more impressive slam runs. No way was Joker’s Wimby 11 performance more impressive than RAFA’s RG 08 performance. Ditto for Joker’s USO 11 performance somehow being more impressive than Wimby 08 and AO 09. The only one that’s remotely comparable is AO 12 vs AO 09, but even then outside of the 5th set AO 09 was probably better.

ELO is incredibly unreliable in these discussions: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/the-joys-of-elo.634302/

 

[GoatNo1]

big3, 5 most impressive streaks:

1. no1e - rafa: 7 IW11 - AO12

Spoiler

16-01-2012	Australian Open	Hard	F	Novak Djokovic (1) d. Rafael Nadal (2)	5-7 6-4 6-2 6-7(5) 7-5
29-08-2011	US Open	Hard	F	Novak Djokovic (1) d. Rafael Nadal (2)	6-2 6-4 6-7(3) 6-1
20-06-2011	Wimbledon	Grass	F	Novak Djokovic (2) d. Rafael Nadal (1)	6-4 6-1 1-6 6-3
08-05-2011	Rome Masters	Clay	F	Novak Djokovic (2) d. Rafael Nadal (1)	6-4 6-4
01-05-2011	Madrid Masters	Clay	F	Novak Djokovic (2) d. Rafael Nadal (1)	7-5 6-4
23-03-2011	Miami Masters	Hard	F	Novak Djokovic (2) d. Rafael Nadal (1)	4-6 6-3 7-6(4)
10-03-2011	Indian Wells Masters	Hard	F	Novak Djokovic (3) d. Rafael Nadal (1)	4-6 6-3 6-2

2. no1e - rafa: 7 MC15 - rome16

Spoiler

09-05-2016	Rome Masters	Clay	QF	Novak Djokovic (1) d. Rafael Nadal (5)	7-5 7-6(4)
07-03-2016	Indian Wells Masters	Hard	SF	Novak Djokovic (1) d. Rafael Nadal (4)	7-6(5) 6-2
04-01-2016	Doha	Hard	F	Novak Djokovic (1) d. Rafael Nadal (2)	6-1 6-2
15-11-2015	Tour Finals	Hard (i)	SF	Novak Djokovic (1) d. Rafael Nadal (5)	6-3 6-3
05-10-2015	Beijing	Hard	F	Novak Djokovic (1) d. Rafael Nadal (3)	6-2 6-2
24-05-2015	Roland Garros	Clay	QF	Novak Djokovic (1) d. Rafael Nadal (6)	7-5 6-3 6-1
12-04-2015	Monte Carlo Masters	Clay	SF	Novak Djokovic (1) d. Rafael Nadal (3)	6-3 6-3

 

[GoatNo1]

3. rafa - fed: 5 MC08 - AO09

Spoiler

19-01-2009	Australian Open	Hard	F	Rafael Nadal (1) d. Roger Federer (2)	7-5 3-6 7-6(3) 3-6 6-2
23-06-2008	Wimbledon	Grass	F	Rafael Nadal (2) d. Roger Federer (1)	6-4 6-4 6-7(5) 6-7(8) 9-7
25-05-2008	Roland Garros	Clay	F	Rafael Nadal (2) d. Roger Federer (1)	6-1 6-3 6-0
11-05-2008	Hamburg Masters	Clay	F	Rafael Nadal (2) d. Roger Federer (1)	7-5 6-7(3) 6-3
20-04-2008	Monte Carlo Masters	Clay	F	Rafael Nadal (2) d. Roger Federer (1)	7-5 7-5

4. nole - fed: 5 WTF15 - W19

Spoiler

01-07-2019	Wimbledon	Grass	F	Novak Djokovic (1) d. Roger Federer (2)	7-6(5) 1-6 7-6(4) 4-6 13-12
29-10-2018	Paris Masters	Hard (i)	SF	Novak Djokovic (2) d. Roger Federer (3)	7-6(6) 5-7 7-6(3)
13-08-2018	Cincinnati Masters	Hard	F	Novak Djokovic (10) d. Roger Federer (2)	6-4 6-4
18-01-2016	Australian Open	Hard	SF	Novak Djokovic (1) d. Roger Federer (3)	6-1 6-2 3-6 6-3
15-11-2015	Tour Finals	Hard (i)	F	Novak Djokovic (1) d. Roger Federer (3)	6-3 6-4

5. fed - rafa: 6 basel15 - IW19

Spoiler

04-03-2019	Indian Wells Masters	Hard	SF	Roger Federer (4) d. Rafael Nadal (2)	W/O
09-10-2017	Shanghai Masters	Hard	F	Roger Federer (2) d. Rafael Nadal (1)	6-4 6-3
20-03-2017	Miami Masters	Hard	F	Roger Federer (4) d. Rafael Nadal (5)	6-3 6-4
06-03-2017	Indian Wells Masters	Hard	R16	Roger Federer (9) d. Rafael Nadal (5)	6-2 6-3
16-01-2017	Australian Open	Hard	F	Roger Federer (17) d. Rafael Nadal (9)	6-4 3-6 6-1 3-6 6-3
26-10-2015	Basel	Hard (i)	F	Roger Federer (1) d. Rafael Nadal (3)	6-3 5-7 6-3

 

[nolefam_2024]

big 3 5 most impressive streaks:

1. no1e - rafa: 7 IW11-AO12

Spoiler

16-01-2012	Australian Open	Hard	F	Novak Djokovic (1) d. Rafael Nadal (2)	5-7 6-4 6-2 6-7(5) 7-5
29-08-2011	US Open	Hard	F	Novak Djokovic (1) d. Rafael Nadal (2)	6-2 6-4 6-7(3) 6-1
20-06-2011	Wimbledon	Grass	F	Novak Djokovic (2) d. Rafael Nadal (1)	6-4 6-1 1-6 6-3
08-05-2011	Rome Masters	Clay	F	Novak Djokovic (2) d. Rafael Nadal (1)	6-4 6-4
01-05-2011	Madrid Masters	Clay	F	Novak Djokovic (2) d. Rafael Nadal (1)	7-5 6-4
23-03-2011	Miami Masters	Hard	F	Novak Djokovic (2) d. Rafael Nadal (1)	4-6 6-3 7-6(4)
10-03-2011	Indian Wells Masters	Hard	F	Novak Djokovic (3) d. Rafael Nadal (1)	4-6 6-3 6-2

2. no1e - rafa: 7 MC15 - rome16

Spoiler

09-05-2016	Rome Masters	Clay	QF	Novak Djokovic (1) d. Rafael Nadal (5)	7-5 7-6(4)
07-03-2016	Indian Wells Masters	Hard	SF	Novak Djokovic (1) d. Rafael Nadal (4)	7-6(5) 6-2
04-01-2016	Doha	Hard	F	Novak Djokovic (1) d. Rafael Nadal (2)	6-1 6-2
15-11-2015	Tour Finals	Hard (i)	SF	Novak Djokovic (1) d. Rafael Nadal (5)	6-3 6-3
05-10-2015	Beijing	Hard	F	Novak Djokovic (1) d. Rafael Nadal (3)	6-2 6-2
24-05-2015	Roland Garros	Clay	QF	Novak Djokovic (1) d. Rafael Nadal (6)	7-5 6-3 6-1
12-04-2015	Monte Carlo Masters	Clay	SF	Novak Djokovic (1) d. Rafael Nadal (3)	6-3 6-3

[/SPOILER]

Djokovic vs Nadal in 2015-16 is not as good for many reasons.

The matches happened far before finals, the BO5 factor, the loss of Nadal's form reducing ELO points.

The combined 7 match GOAT points is barely 0.79 GOAT points.
This is worse than Federer's streak vs Nadal in 2015-17.

 

[nolefam_2024]

While yes, Djokovic Federer 2015 to 2019 was very high quality. At 1.97 big matches GOAT points.

But it is impacted by Djokovic not showing up for 18 months between 2017 AO to 2018 Wimby and Federer not showing up for 9 months between 2016 Dubai to Year end. Basically they had to very separate halves.

 

[nolefam_2024]

1. Rafole 2011-12 3.51 points
2. Fedal 2008-09 2.78

These are stand out dominations ^^^^^^

3. Fedkovic 2015-19 1.97
4. Fedal 2015-17 1.00
5. Rafole 2015-16 0.79

 

[GoatNo1]

Djokovic vs Nadal in 2015-16 is not as good for many reasons.

The matches happened far before finals, the BO5 factor, the loss of Nadal's form reducing ELO points.

The combined 7 match GOAT points is barely 0.79 GOAT points.
This is worse than Federer's streak vs Nadal in 2015-17.

he defeated rafa 7 times of which 3 times was on clay and one of them was at RG there rafa lost only 4 times in whole career. and he won tournament many times both before and after that lost.