[Poll] Who was the best returner in the history of tennis?

Who was the best returner in the history of tennis?

  • Nalbandian

    Votes: 3 2.7%

  • Davydenko

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Chang

    Votes: 1 0.9%

  • Nadal

    Votes: 2 1.8%

  • Hewitt

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Federer

    Votes: 1 0.9%

  • Murray

    Votes: 5 4.5%

  • Agassi

    Votes: 26 23.2%

  • Djokovic

    Votes: 72 64.3%

  • Other

    Votes: 2 1.8%
  • Total voters
    112
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Taking inspiration from this old ATP video, I already have the candidates ready. In theory it should be a closed debate, only Agassi could undermine Djokovic's virtual leadership, but perhaps not everyone is of this opinion.

 
But am I the only one who thinks that Nadal's return is overrated?
The fact that he has one of the highest percentages of return game wins in his career is misleading since we are talking about a player who was a master at overturning the inertia of a rally in a nanosecond. But if we talk about actual returns, I think he shouldn't be in a top 10. His returns were often containment aimed at starting the exchange without worrying too much about attacking to immediately generate an advantageous position.
 
I broadly think that the answer is so obviously Djokovic that the question is uninteresting; but the particulars between first and second serve return, against which types of serve, off which side, and on which surfaces, is, as a single category, one of the most interesting, technical discussions that exists in tennis discourse.
 
Winner Sinner said:
But am I the only one who thinks that Nadal's return is overrated?
The fact that he has one of the highest percentages of return game wins in his career is misleading since we are talking about a player who was a master at overturning the inertia of a rally in a nanosecond. But if we talk about actual returns, I think he shouldn't be in a top 10. His returns were often containment aimed at starting the exchange without worrying too much about attacking to immediately generate an advantageous position.
Click to expand...
True
 
Djokovic is my default answer but among the top players Agassi really - or more precisely doesn’t - stand out. His serve always held him back, even more so when compared to a guy called Pete, but despite that his combination of return and strokes enabled him to get the better as the rallies got longer. Conner shares also some elements - just like Alcaraz.

For me the deep return position is firmly part of the modern tactical approach to returning and both Alcaraz and Sinner employ more or less despite having great success from aggressive positions. Mr. Sabr could imho also profited from stepping back from time to time.
 
Rovesciarete said:
Djokovic is my default answer but among the top players Agassi really - or more precisely doesn’t - stand out. His serve always held him back, even more so when compared to a guy called Pete, but despite that his combination of return and strokes enabled him to get the better as the rallies got longer. Conner shares also some elements - just like Alcaraz.

For me the deep return position is firmly part of the modern tactical approach to returning and both Alcaraz and Sinner employ more or less despite having great success from aggressive positions. Mr. Sabr could imho also profited from stepping back from time to time.
Click to expand...
Who do you think has the better return between Sinner and Alcaraz?
As I have always said, Alcaraz's is perhaps more aggressive, especially on the second, but Sinner's gives me the impression of being more continuous regardless of the surface. Maybe Alcaraz's one on slow surfaces is better, I remember at the last Indian Wells tournament how Zverev's first one tickled him by responding from a further back position. Absolutely I would take Sinner's, but the fact that Alcaraz has a much higher percentage of games won in return only generates more doubts in the debate.
 
Slingshot said:
I broadly think that the answer is so obviously Djokovic that the question is uninteresting; but the particulars between first and second serve return, against which types of serve, off which side, and on which surfaces, is, as a single category, one of the most interesting, technical discussions that exists in tennis discourse.
Click to expand...
Quote across the board. The premise of these questions is always to try to spark interesting discussions that go beyond the simple question. However, I think that Agassi proposes a minimum of uncertainty. Before Djokovic's arrival, Agassi received practically unanimous approval on the issue. Having said that, perhaps it would be much more interesting to put together a survey on who owns the best return at the moment, and I think I will do so in the next few days.
 
Probably one of Djokovic/Murray/Agassi. I guess Djokovic is the safe bet and he did it the longest.
 
Winner Sinner said:
Quote across the board. The premise of these questions is always to try to spark interesting discussions that go beyond the simple question. However, I think that Agassi proposes a minimum of uncertainty. Before Djokovic's arrival, Agassi received practically unanimous approval on the issue. Having said that, perhaps it would be much more interesting to put together a survey on who owns the best return at the moment, and I think I will do so in the next few days.
Click to expand...
Match point down, second serve, on a hard court: who would you least like to see on the other side of the net, Djokovic or Agassi?
 
As a single shot it's Andre. Djokovic's ROS while GOAT level is clearly tailored to take advantage of his superior baseline rallying ability.
 
Against his contemporaries, I always see Andre as standing out far from the pack. Maybe Chang in there as well. Not to say stats can't tell a different story, but Agassi stood further apart in his era.
 
Agassi being a top 15 returner is just propaganda. The guy was a straight up average 1st serve returner and he played in an era of meme 2nd serves.
 
The ATP career leaderboard for Returns is interesting and unexpected with several lesser known players in the Top 10 along with Nadal, Djokovic, Muster and Chang. Who would have guessed that Coria would be #1? If you change the surface to only hard courts, the top 5 is somewhat unexpected with Edberg and McEnroe joining Chang, Djokovic and Agassi.

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RS said:
My role 2-3 years ago being taken
Click to expand...
c19aa00b-5c8f-4e58-a0b7-24aa07fe1d26_text.gif
 
socallefty said:
The ATP career leaderboard for Returns is interesting and unexpected with several lesser known players in the Top 10 along with Nadal, Djokovic, Muster and Chang. Who would have guessed that Coria would be #1? If you change the surface to only hard courts, the top 5 is somewhat unexpected with Edberg and McEnroe joining Chang, Djokovic and Agassi.

Leaderboard | ATP Tour | Tennis

Statistical measures of the best-performing players in three key categories in men's professional tennis.
www.atptour.com www.atptour.com
Click to expand...
Nothing unexpected in that. On return stats, remove clay always.

Return is not going to finish pts or give advantage on clay. t least as much as grass and hard.
 
Got to be Anna Kournikova. Kournikova beat Miho Saeki in spite of committing 31 double faults.

ps Coco, you have a long way to go and a short time to get there
 
Last edited:
I think everyone agrees Djokovic is better than Murray at basically everything besides returning so how if that's the case was Murray winning more return games than Djokovic in their primes if Murray's not a better returner. I've seen it argued before that Murray ran up the numbers a bit vs lesser competition and there's actually a significant gap in RPW for Djokovic vs top 10 opponents and if that's true then I can see the case but I think we have to take very seriously the possibility that Murray is a better returner than Djokovic.

Also I wonder at what point we consider Carlos for this list obviously the body of work is not quite there yet but he's well on his way. Surprised to see Nishikori left off the list but no inclusion above him is really offensive.

Also I wonder what you do with someone like Schwartzman who only had a career because of his special return/return game. Yes he faces far less great competition than top guys so it's easier to post gaudy return numbers and clay skew but I wonder if isolating return he doesnt deserve consideration here.
 
The Guru said:
I think everyone agrees Djokovic is better than Murray at basically everything besides returning so how if that's the case was Murray winning more return games than Djokovic in their primes if Murray's not a better returner. I've seen it argued before that Murray ran up the numbers a bit vs lesser competition and there's actually a significant gap in RPW for Djokovic vs top 10 opponents and if that's true then I can see the case but I think we have to take very seriously the possibility that Murray is a better returner than Djokovic.

Also I wonder at what point we consider Carlos for this list obviously the body of work is not quite there yet but he's well on his way. Surprised to see Nishikori left off the list but no inclusion above him is really offensive.

Also I wonder what you do with someone like Schwartzman who only had a career because of his special return/return game. Yes he faces far less great competition than top guys so it's easier to post gaudy return numbers and clay skew but I wonder if isolating return he doesnt deserve consideration here.
Click to expand...
Murray is 1a to djokovic's 1. Vs big servers Murray was better and vs players with more accuracy and less speed, Djokovic was.

We can consider Murray better if the stats agree. But Djokovic did it much longer vs harder opposition.
 
The Guru said:
I think everyone agrees Djokovic is better than Murray at basically everything besides returning so how if that's the case was Murray winning more return games than Djokovic in their primes if Murray's not a better returner. I've seen it argued before that Murray ran up the numbers a bit vs lesser competition and there's actually a significant gap in RPW for Djokovic vs top 10 opponents and if that's true then I can see the case but I think we have to take very seriously the possibility that Murray is a better returner than Djokovic.

Also I wonder at what point we consider Carlos for this list obviously the body of work is not quite there yet but he's well on his way. Surprised to see Nishikori left off the list but no inclusion above him is really offensive.

Also I wonder what you do with someone like Schwartzman who only had a career because of his special return/return game. Yes he faces far less great competition than top guys so it's easier to post gaudy return numbers and clay skew but I wonder if isolating return he doesnt deserve consideration here.
Click to expand...

How close do you rate Murray's BH to Djokovic's?
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Murray is 1a to djokovic's 1. Vs big servers Murray was better and vs players with more accuracy and less speed, Djokovic was.

We can consider Murray better if the stats agree. But Djokovic did it much longer vs harder opposition.
Click to expand...
I don't know about the harder opposition part. It's not like Murray got upset early that much more regularly than Novak. Murray was regularly facing the best serves on the planet too. I'm not saying Murray is better definitively I'm just saying people always say it's Novak no question and I think that's a massive overstatement even if Novak edges him out.
 
RS said:
How close do you rate Murray's BH to Djokovic's?
Click to expand...
It's worse. Probably by less than we typically think though once you factor in Djokovic's movement advantage and Murray's slice. Djokovic changes directions better by a fair amount and that's a big deal.
 
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The Guru said:
I don't know about the harder opposition part. It's not like Murray got upset early that much more regularly than Novak. Murray was regularly facing the best serves on the planet too. I'm not saying Murray is better definitively I'm just saying people always say it's Novak no question and I think that's a massive overstatement even if Novak edges him out.
Click to expand...
Murray's problem ironically might be his second serve return which he took so early.
 
The Guru said:
I think everyone agrees Djokovic is better than Murray at basically everything besides returning so how if that's the case was Murray winning more return games than Djokovic in their primes if Murray's not a better returner. I've seen it argued before that Murray ran up the numbers a bit vs lesser competition and there's actually a significant gap in RPW for Djokovic vs top 10 opponents and if that's true then I can see the case but I think we have to take very seriously the possibility that Murray is a better returner than Djokovic.

Also I wonder at what point we consider Carlos for this list obviously the body of work is not quite there yet but he's well on his way. Surprised to see Nishikori left off the list but no inclusion above him is really offensive.

Also I wonder what you do with someone like Schwartzman who only had a career because of his special return/return game. Yes he faces far less great competition than top guys so it's easier to post gaudy return numbers and clay skew but I wonder if isolating return he doesnt deserve consideration here.
Click to expand...
In the big matches Djokovic's return shone more than Murray’s. I would pick Murray to get the biggest serves into play, but against everything else (including an elite spot server like Federer) I would take Djokovic.
 
The Guru said:
It's worse. Probably by less than we typically think though once you factor in Djokovic's movement advantage and Murray's slice. Djokovic changes directions better by a fair amount and that's a big deal.
Click to expand...
Fair. Watching back Murray matches a rate his BH a little lower than before I think because sometimes he struggles to go DTL..
 
NatF said:
In the big matches Djokovic's return shone more than Murray’s. I would pick Murray to get the biggest serves into play, but against everything else (including an elite spot server like Federer) I would take Djokovic.
Click to expand...
I think this is totally defensible and as a Novak fan I would like it to be true but my instincts tell me Murray is slightly better against most great 1st serves not just the all time bots. I wonder what the numbers are vs Fed my gut feeling tells me Murray outperforms Djokovic on return vs Fed even with a worse overall game.
 
In 2011, Djokovic won 41.0% of return games on hard surfaces, an unapproachable percentage nowadays where if you manage to exceed 30% you're playing for leadership.
 
Djokovic is a monster at the return. I've never seen anyone neutralize the bombs from Raonic as he did.
 
socallefty said:
The ATP career leaderboard for Returns is interesting and unexpected with several lesser known players in the Top 10 along with Nadal, Djokovic, Muster and Chang. Who would have guessed that Coria would be #1? If you change the surface to only hard courts, the top 5 is somewhat unexpected with Edberg and McEnroe joining Chang, Djokovic and Agassi.

Leaderboard | ATP Tour | Tennis

Statistical measures of the best-performing players in three key categories in men's professional tennis.
www.atptour.com www.atptour.com
Click to expand...
There's a heavy dose of clay skew on this leaderboard.

IMO these ratings have to be adjusted for surface distribution, otherwise clay courters have a massive advantage in return ratings
 
jm1980 said:
There's a heavy dose of clay skew on this leaderboard.

IMO these ratings have to be adjusted for surface distribution, otherwise clay courters have a massive advantage in return ratings
Click to expand...
Yes, the clay courters have 5+ shot rallies forever. The return does not make that big a difference. Neither does the serve.
 
The Guru said:
I think this is totally defensible and as a Novak fan I would like it to be true but my instincts tell me Murray is slightly better against most great 1st serves not just the all time bots. I wonder what the numbers are vs Fed my gut feeling tells me Murray outperforms Djokovic on return vs Fed even with a worse overall game.
Click to expand...
Well in slams I know who performed better on return versus Fed lol, but I guess some of that might just be the rest of Djokovic's game.

My impression of the Djokovic return is a bit like the Sampras serve in that, some players had similar or better serve numbers in some respects but when you isolate it to the top 10 or the final rounds of big tournaments the dip in service games won (or in this case return games) probably isn't as steep compared to rivals. I think both guys had an extra gear that they could bring. Does Murray make that return in the USO 2011 SF? I don't think so. Some of that is mental and playing your best when it matters. But you know me, I do like the intangibles :-D
 
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