POLY vs KEVLAR in Spin Effect rackets

[drak]

With my own recent revelation of how well Kevlar plays vs Poly in spin effect frames I was wondering why it seems so few here have tried it or discuss it. Poly discussions seem to dominate and we have the age old problem of Poly's going dead in anywhere from 4-12 hrs. Many spin effect frames with fewer crosses have opened up playing with either Poly or Kevlar, as unless the frames are super stiff if strung reasonably the arm/shoulder issues seem to diminish considerably.
In my view Kevlars benefits (specifically with a ZX crosses) in these frames are both longevity of play and they last as long or probably longer than Poly. Control/spin aspects are IMO as good or better than Poly and the fact that there is no issue with the Poly goin dead is huge IMO as the longevity of "quality play" from this combo dwarfs that of Poly.
I am not suggesting this is for everyone, but I think Poly users in spin effect frames should at least try the Kevlar/ZX combo, and it can be strung at lower tensions, I string my Blades 98S at 51 lbs, and let me say that prestretching both strings (thanks Travelerjam and others) makes the playability for longer really good as both these strings lose a lot of "initial" tension if not prestretched.
Anyway, I'd like folks to chime in if they have tried this in SPIN EFFECT frames or they might do so.

 

[bertrevert]

Well anything is better than syn gut in Spin FX frames that's for sure.

I don't know but time after time I've got poly tension wrong - in all sorts of frames - usually because I know nothing about the poly going in, I'm always wise afterwards. Generally strung low though

However the only kevlar I've tried was in (not my) racq and it was strung at like 58... god it was like piano wire.

Are you sure the effect of spin effect, and of a low tension (albeit pre-stretched), make for kevlar feeling alright?

I mean not like barbed wires tearing yr tendons to shreds...

 

[BreakPoint]

Since poly is MUCH more slippery than Kevlar, I doubt Kevlar mains (even with ZX crosses) can "snap back" as fast as full poly does.

 

[comeback]

Well Drak, i have the king of spin effect rackets; the Wilson Steam 105s..today is the 2nd day of wall hitting with 18g kevlar/zx at 50/50lbs..it SEEMS ok but i don't like jumping to conclusions.. I need some match play and have matches scheduled for this tues and wed..i plan to use this set up..Hopefully i won't chicken out and use a different set up..Will report and hopefully video the matches also

 

[Dominic]

Drak, I like your comments. I started using Kevlar (and admitting still experimenting) about a year ago, basically, I was in a search for a string that lasted longer then the 3 hours i was getting from my Solinco Tour Bite (Fantastic Sting, with great spin, only negative the durability). I was very skeptical at first, but after the first session, I was super impressed with Kevlar, Huge Spin Potential (Similar to the very impressive STB) and then lasted way longer. Also being a Fan of the Open String pattern, PS95s and Juice100s I thought, Kevlar will be a great string for these type of rackets. I haven't tried Kevlar in a spin effect racket, but based off my experience with Kevlar (ashaway crossfire 16) in my RF97, I think Kevlar is a overlooked option

 

[BreakPoint]

Drak, I like your comments. I started using Kevlar (and admitting still experimenting) about a year ago, basically, I was in a search for a string that lasted longer then the 3 hours i was getting from my Solinco Tour Bite (Fantastic Sting, with great spin, only negative the durability). I was very skeptical at first, but after the first session, I was super impressed with Kevlar, Huge Spin Potential (Similar to the very impressive STB) and then lasted way longer. Also being a Fan of the Open String pattern, PS95s and Juice100s I thought, Kevlar will be a great string for these type of rackets. I haven't tried Kevlar in a spin effect racket, but based off my experience with Kevlar (ashaway crossfire 16) in my RF97, I think Kevlar is a overlooked option

Are you using a full bed of Kevlar or in a hybrid? If a hybrid, what do you use as a cross? Thanks.

 

[Dominic]

Been using the packaged Hybrid : Prince Pro Blend Duraflex and Ashaway Crossfire 16, and I've seemed to have settled with the Kevlar Mains @ 40lbs and the crosses at 50lb. This set up feels about the best with incredible control, but I wouldn't mind a little bit more power and have just ordered some : Ashaway Crossfire 17, 18, Crossfire ZX and Crossfire +Plus from TW (on sale at the moment) to see if these offer a bit more power. I find no real difference in power when I drop the Kevlar tension below 40lbs. So lots more experimenting to do, but and quite impressed with Hybrid Kevlar so far...

 

[zalive]

I'm more interested about how much time it takes for a poly /zyex hybrid going dead (zyex on crosses).
Does poly ever goes dead in such a hybrid, or zyex breaks first before it ever happens?

 

[drak]

Are you using a full bed of Kevlar or in a hybrid? If a hybrid, what do you use as a cross? Thanks.

NO WAY a full bed, Ashaway Kev mains and Monogut ZX crosses, the ZX crosses are very slick and do not notch. IMO one reason for the very good spin here is less notching of the mains vs POLY and others which can notch very quickly

 

[drak]

Since poly is MUCH more slippery than Kevlar, I doubt Kevlar mains (even with ZX crosses) can "snap back" as fast as full poly does.

for how long though? my experience is that Poly's often both notch and go dead quickly, not my experience with the KEV/ZX set up

 

[drak]

I'm more interested about how much time it takes for a poly /zyex hybrid going dead (zyex on crosses).
Does poly ever goes dead in such a hybrid, or zyex breaks first before it ever happens?

unless one breaks ZX while stringing (be careful with knots) I find it often outlasts almost all other strings in 1.27 gauge, especially as a cross strong and I I haven't yet had an issue with it going dead

 

[BreakPoint]

Been using the packaged Hybrid : Prince Pro Blend Duraflex and Ashaway Crossfire 16, and I've seemed to have settled with the Kevlar Mains @ 40lbs and the crosses at 50lb. This set up feels about the best with incredible control, but I wouldn't mind a little bit more power and have just ordered some : Ashaway Crossfire 17, 18, Crossfire ZX and Crossfire +Plus from TW (on sale at the moment) to see if these offer a bit more power. I find no real difference in power when I drop the Kevlar tension below 40lbs. So lots more experimenting to do, but and quite impressed with Hybrid Kevlar so far...

Thanks! Are you getting much "snap back" of the Kevlar main strings when you hit the ball or do your mains usually look pretty crooked after hitting balls? I'm assuming there's not much "snap back" since both the Kevlar mains and the syn gut crosses are not slippery like poly is so probably don't slide easily very well against each other?

 

[BreakPoint]

NO WAY a full bed, Ashaway Kev mains and Monogut ZX crosses, the ZX crosses are very slick and do not notch. IMO one reason for the very good spin here is less notching of the mains vs POLY and others which can notch very quickly

I think the high stiffness of the Kevlar mains also adds to the spin.

 

[BreakPoint]

for how long though? my experience is that Poly's often both notch and go dead quickly, not my experience with the KEV/ZX set up

But which has FASTER "snap back"? Full poly or Kevlar hybrid? "Snap back" seems to be important to some people since they believe it adds to the spin. So if it snaps back too slowly, the ball is already gone from the stringbed. The ball is only on the stringbed for a few milliseconds.

 

[mikeler]

When I used Prince Pro Blend a decade ago, I did notice that the Kevlar or synthetic gut (or both) would degrade around the 15 hour mark. Once I got it restrung, then I liked the setup again. Has anyone else experienced that with Kevlar?

 

[Shroud]

With my own recent revelation of how well Kevlar plays vs Poly in spin effect frames I was wondering why it seems so few here have tried it or discuss it. Poly discussions seem to dominate and we have the age old problem of Poly's going dead in anywhere from 4-12 hrs. Many spin effect frames with fewer crosses have opened up playing with either Poly or Kevlar, as unless the frames are super stiff if strung reasonably the arm/shoulder issues seem to diminish considerably.
In my view Kevlars benefits (specifically with a ZX crosses) in these frames are both longevity of play and they last as long or probably longer than Poly. Control/spin aspects are IMO as good or better than Poly and the fact that there is no issue with the Poly goin dead is huge IMO as the longevity of "quality play" from this combo dwarfs that of Poly.
I am not suggesting this is for everyone, but I think Poly users in spin effect frames should at least try the Kevlar/ZX combo, and it can be strung at lower tensions, I string my Blades 98S at 51 lbs, and let me say that prestretching both strings (thanks Travelerjam and others) makes the playability for longer really good as both these strings lose a lot of "initial" tension if not prestretched.
Anyway, I'd like folks to chime in if they have tried this in SPIN EFFECT frames or they might do so.

I had some kev/zx in my Warrior 100 ESPl. THink I did 75/55. It worked great and I did get some great spin. 1st time i ever broke the zx!

Anyhow I think most have not tried kevlar with a slippy cross (just using the syngut that comes in the package) and don't think about it for a SPIN racket because the syngut they probably used with the kevlar produced a locked string bed.

Its a different world with a slippy cross and IME really helps to make things arm friendly. Also spin rackets need a firmer string for me because the stringbed is so open. Kevlar works great for that.

Next time I will be going up in tension.

 

[Shroud]

When I used Prince Pro Blend a decade ago, I did notice that the Kevlar or synthetic gut (or both) would degrade around the 15 hour mark. Once I got it restrung, then I liked the setup again. Has anyone else experienced that with Kevlar?

Not since I switched to slick crosses.

Sure when the kevlar gets sawed through enough it does degrade but that seems to take a long time these days. Though I am only really talking about Ashaway kevlar. I have some problend but havent had the need to mess with it because the Ashaway is so good.

 

[Shroud]

Oh and dont be afraid to try nylon as the crosses. Travlerajm turned me on to this and if the tension is high enough the nylon doesnt lock like you would expect. Its no poly but its no syngut either.

 

[Ihatetennis]

Oh and dont be afraid to try nylon as the crosses. Travlerajm turned me on to this and if the tension is high enough the nylon doesnt lock like you would expect. Its no poly but its no syngut either.

i like nylon in crosses, but it pops too fast in 15g for me, so beware the cr

Oh and dont be afraid to try nylon as the crosses. Travlerajm turned me on to this and if the tension is high enough the nylon doesnt lock like you would expect. Its no poly but its no syngut either.

nylon will pop before kevlar. i pop 15g in 3 hours

 

[Shroud]

i like nylon in crosses, but it pops too fast in 15g for me, so beware the cr


nylon will pop before kevlar. i pop 15g in 3 hours

interesting. What is it strung at and is it ashaway kevlar?

My blx 2 pattern is pretty open but not exactly a spin pattern (though its more open than my 6.1 95S I think) and I have been ok, though i usually restring the crosses after a few outings due to tension loss.

 

[Ihatetennis]

interesting. What is it strung at and is it ashaway kevlar?

My blx 2 pattern is pretty open but not exactly a spin pattern (though its more open than my 6.1 95S I think) and I have been ok, though i usually restring the crosses after a few outings due to tension loss.

clarke technora and prince 15g tournament nylon and klipper 15g nylon as well as the clarke 15g nylon

i just use poly crosses now as they out last it

 

[Shroud]

clarke technora and prince 15g tournament nylon and klipper 15g nylon as well as the clarke 15g nylon

i just use poly crosses now as they out last it

Do you think the clarke is more abrasive than the ashaway??

I almost bought some but Ashaway is American made

 

[Ihatetennis]

Do you think the clarke is more abrasive than the ashaway??

I almost bought some but Ashaway is American made

i like clarke a lot more. i personally dont like ashway. plus clarke is coated

 

[Shroud]

i like clarke a lot more. i personally dont like ashway. plus clarke is coated

Does the coating last?

And maybe thats it. If the clarke is moving more it coukd saw through faster.

 

[Ihatetennis]

Does the coating last?

And maybe thats it. If the clarke is moving more it coukd saw through faster.

possibly, the coating is very durable it is better in the reels than the sets though

i can post a comparison

 

[drak]

interesting. What is it strung at and is it ashaway kevlar?

My blx 2 pattern is pretty open but not exactly a spin pattern (though its more open than my 6.1 95S I think) and I have been ok, though i usually restring the crosses after a few outings due to tension loss.

if you use ZX in the cross you won't have to be worry about restringing it, stuff really lasts well and IMO plays great as a cross

 

[drak]

I had some kev/zx in my Warrior 100 ESPl. THink I did 75/55. It worked great and I did get some great spin. 1st time i ever broke the zx!

Anyhow I think most have not tried kevlar with a slippy cross (just using the syngut that comes in the package) and don't think about it for a SPIN racket because the syngut they probably used with the kevlar produced a locked string bed.

Its a different world with a slippy cross and IME really helps to make things arm friendly. Also spin rackets need a firmer string for me because the stringbed is so open. Kevlar works great for that.

Next time I will be going up in tension.

I think it's overkill and unnecessary to use high string tension differentials (6040 or 75/55) in a spin effect racket. The fewer cross strings accomplishes the same effect and with KEV mains the lower tensions play very well, folks don't have to be concerned about frame distortion not that's its really an issue but it is to some. I think tension differential stringing with Kev/ZX works really well in a more traditional stringbed layout.

 

[Shroud]

if you use ZX in the cross you won't have to be worry about restringing it, stuff really lasts well and IMO plays great as a cross

Yes but in this case the zx broke before the kev. Thats a first and i have used zx for quite a while

 

[drak]

Yes but in this case the zx broke before the kev. Thats a first and i have used zx for quite a while

It can happen, but even as you said that was a "first"

 

[BreakPoint]

Interesting how Kevlar doesn't "snap back" as fast as poly does but still produces just as much spin. Hmmm......

 

[Shroud]

It can happen, but even as you said that was a "first"

Yep. But its the first time i used it in a resl spin racket.

 

[2ndServe]

What's a good cross string for 18x20 setup. I'm at 60+ lbs with kevlar mains and Babolat Origin crosses. This setup is too tight right now. I'll probably go down a few pounds to increase the sweetspot size as it feels like there is no sweetspot at too high a tension at 18x20. Strings don't move at all in such a dense pattern. Had been using OG Sheep Micro which I bought for $35 660ft. String is ok for $35 but it really has no feel.

 

[Shroud]

What's a good cross string for 18x20 setup. I'm at 60+ lbs with kevlar mains and Babolat Origin crosses. This setup is too tight right now. I'll probably go down a few pounds to increase the sweetspot size as it feels like there is no sweetspot at too high a tension at 18x20. Strings don't move at all in such a dense pattern. Had been using OG Sheep Micro which I bought for $35 660ft. String is ok for $35 but it really has no feel.

Monogut Zx is a great cross for kevlar. Great in dense patterns especially if you string the crosses at less tension. Maybe 65/50 to start

 

[2ndServe]

What's the difference between monogut and monogut zx?

How is Ashaway kevlar vs AG Kevlar?

 

[Shroud]

What's the difference between monogut and monogut zx?

How is Ashaway kevlar vs AG Kevlar?

monogut is a stiff poly
monogut zx is a super soft zyex string that is smooth allowing snapback. If VS gut and 4g had a kid it would be monogut zx!

Not sure on the kevlar. I have 2 packs of AG, 2 of forten, one of problend, one of Kevlar +, one dunlop I think and a wilson hyperlast and probably one other kevlar version but am happy with the ashaway.

 

[RanchDressing]

If I were to use kevlar in any racquet it would probably be in a spin effect frame. 4g S was made for them because it is so ridiculously stiff (it's 1.41mm!)

Here's a read:
http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/spinandstiffness.php

 

[Buford T Justice]

I tried the Ashaway Crossfire ZX hybrid (which is the pre-packaged Kevlar+ and Monogut ZX hybrid) in one of my Blade 98S last night......fantastic! Groundstrokes I found to have more power than full poly, have a lower launch angle, and a little less spin (or it could simply be that because of the additional power it seems like there is less spin since the ball is traveling faster and therefore appears to "dip" less). Volleys were dramatically improved over full poly...shockingly so. There is no doubt this creates a softer stringbed than full poly and my arm appreciates this for sure. I strung it at 55/45. Thanks for the tips on this setup.....Ill be buying more of this stuff and will experiment with other tensions and differentials. I tend to like the higher launch angles, so I may up the differential to achieve that.

 

[Buford T Justice]

Also...forgot to mention......this stuff was also very useful. I normally use this on poly when it notches to help with snapback.

With the kevlar hybrid, I noticed that even when fresh, the strings were not always snapping back with they would on full poly, but once I applied this about every changeover....no problem

 

[marsh]

This stuff is a great idea!!! Thank you for the share.

I have been experimenting with the kevlar Zyex hybrid and have yet to find a downside for my game. It is simply fantastic on all strokes and from all areas of the court. I have two racquets currently strung with this combo (my Angell 95 and new 97). The 95 has standard Ashway Kevlar and the 97 has Kevlar + from the Crossfire ZX hybrid pack. I think the standard kevlar plays better. It's just a little stiffer and the feel is a little better. It's a shame that this combo is not available prepackaged as a hybrid option. Looks like I have some expensive reel purchases in my near future.

 

[Buford T Justice]

This stuff is a great idea!!! Thank you for the share.

Playing with a spin type open pattern, I have tried all the tricks to increase stringlife (every possible lotion, etc on the strings ). I have found the fast fret is far and away the best and easiest to use. Plus, it doesn't mark up the balls. Its easily purchased at a guitar store, music shop, etc for about 7 bucks and youll get about a year out of it!

 

[Shroud]

I tried the Ashaway Crossfire ZX hybrid (which is the pre-packaged Kevlar+ and Monogut ZX hybrid) in one of my Blade 98S last night......fantastic! Groundstrokes I found to have more power than full poly, have a lower launch angle, and a little less spin (or it could simply be that because of the additional power it seems like there is less spin since the ball is traveling faster and therefore appears to "dip" less). Volleys were dramatically improved over full poly...shockingly so. There is no doubt this creates a softer stringbed than full poly and my arm appreciates this for sure. I strung it at 55/45. Thanks for the tips on this setup.....Ill be buying more of this stuff and will experiment with other tensions and differentials. I tend to like the higher launch angles, so I may up the differential to achieve that.

My 2 cents is that this "spin" stuff on spin rackets is more illusion than anything, and is caused by the severe launch angles. As you mention, the kevlar has a lower launch angle so the perception is less spin because the last second DIP is not as pronounced. Its a trade off of sorts in that some shots like volleys benefit from less launch angles. Tension differentials may help as you mention. I think most are using 20lbs with that combo. And do prestretch both sets of string.

Also as I understand it, the kevlar in that pack is not the regular kevlar and notching is more than the standard kevlar.

 

[Shroud]

This stuff is a great idea!!! Thank you for the share.

I have been experimenting with the kevlar Zyex hybrid and have yet to find a downside for my game. It is simply fantastic on all strokes and from all areas of the court. I have two racquets currently strung with this combo (my Angell 95 and new 97). The 95 has standard Ashway Kevlar and the 97 has Kevlar + from the Crossfire ZX hybrid pack. I think the standard kevlar plays better. It's just a little stiffer and the feel is a little better. It's a shame that this combo is not available prepackaged as a hybrid option. Looks like I have some expensive reel purchases in my near future.

Yeah! Don't know why Ashaway put that silly kevlar + in that pack! The normal was perfect and well trying to get a softer feel is already achieved with the inclusion of ZX....

Also pretty sure TW sells half sets of the kevlar and you could buy 2 and then a pack of zx so you have 2 rackets worth without buying a whole reel:

http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Ashaway_Kevlar_16_1_2_Set/descpageAC-AK6H.html

 

[marsh]

Yeah! Don't know why Ashaway put that silly kevlar + in that pack! The normal was perfect and well trying to get a softer feel is already achieved with the inclusion of ZX....

Also pretty sure TW sells half sets of the kevlar and you could buy 2 and then a pack of zx so you have 2 rackets worth without buying a whole reel:

http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Ashaway_Kevlar_16_1_2_Set/descpageAC-AK6H.html

Good find on the half sets. Now do I order several of those or a full reel?

 

[Buford T Justice]

My 2 cents is that this "spin" stuff on spin rackets is more illusion than anything, and is caused by the severe launch angles. As you mention, the kevlar has a lower launch angle so the perception is less spin because the last second DIP is not as pronounced. Its a trade off of sorts in that some shots like volleys benefit from less launch angles. Tension differentials may help as you mention. I think most are using 20lbs with that combo. And do prestretch both sets of string.

Also as I understand it, the kevlar in that pack is not the regular kevlar and notching is more than the standard kevlar.

Yeah......there is never a free lunch!

In this case, I think the volley improvement is enough to warrant the change in the launch angle on ground strokes (which as mentioned I tend to prefer higher angles).

I plan to increase the differential on the next string job to the 20 lb you mentioned....I was thinking Id try 60/40?

I know that in the original ESP thread 90/40 was often quoted.....but I may need to start more conservatively than that!

 

[Buford T Justice]

Good find on the half sets. Now do I order several of those or a full reel?

I ended up just buying more of the pre-packaged hybrid. Even though reports indicate it doesn't last quite as long and plays a little differently, to start with Ill try this approach then decide whether or not to just buy reels. As an aside, buying the pre-packaged hybrid does seem to come out as a low cost option (as its $7.37 a pack if you buy 3+).

 

[Buford T Justice]

, and let me say that prestretching both strings (thanks Travelerjam and others) makes the playability for longer really good as both these strings lose a lot of "initial" tension if not prestretched.

Question-----

Functionally, what is the difference between pre-stretching the strings or simply stringing them higher than desired and letting the frames sit for a few days before using them? With poly, this is what I generally did as over time I found I liked racquets better when they were a few days off the stringer.

I pre-stretched the last Kevlar hybrid, but am curious as to how this would be different than stringing higher and waiting. The one thing about pre-stretching that I am not sure about is (when using the oft prescribed approach of wrapping the strings around a post and using a bat/old racquet to pull on them with body weight) is how to determine how much force one is actually applying when using this method?

 

[marsh]

Yeah......there is never a free lunch!

In this case, I think the volley improvement is enough to warrant the change in the launch angle on ground strokes (which as mentioned I tend to prefer higher angles).

I plan to increase the differential on the next string job to the 20 lb you mentioned....I was thinking Id try 60/40?

I know that in the original ESP thread 90/40 was often quoted.....but I may need to start more conservatively than that!

I'm currently at 60/40 and love it. I haven't fooled around with prestretching the kevlar because when I string it there is very little stretch in the string to begin with. Couple of seconds on my drop weight and the kevlar doesn't move at all. Zyex, if haven't tried this without prestretching it. It's amazing how much extra length you'll get from it after a good prestretch. I think I read somewhere that one person measured 18 inches on a 20 foot section.

 

[Shroud]

Question-----

Functionally, what is the difference between pre-stretching the strings or simply stringing them higher than desired and letting the frames sit for a few days before using them? With poly, this is what I generally did as over time I found I liked racquets better when they were a few days off the stringer.

I pre-stretched the last Kevlar hybrid, but am curious as to how this would be different than stringing higher and waiting. The one thing about pre-stretching that I am not sure about is (when using the oft prescribed approach of wrapping the strings around a post and using a bat/old racquet to pull on them with body weight) is how to determine how much force one is actually applying when using this method?

1st off the around the pole method is really for just removing coil memory and not permanently elongating the string. With this combo we want to elongate the string to help with tension maintenance. Zx especially is super stretch as marsh mentions. If you are doing tension differentials and dont prestretch, the differential will get wrecked faster and the spin magic will diminish

You could string higher and wait, but it would be even better to string higher, play a fee hoirs and then restring using the same strings. The higher tension and ball impact will stretch the strings more and when you reuse the initial tension loss will be significantly less. And especially for the zx because its the cross string, you get more elongation from pulling (not around a post) than stringing because the mains offer resistance

For the launch angle and no free lunch i blame the Duke boys...

 

[Shroud]

Good find on the half sets. Now do I order several of those or a full reel?

If i am doing the math right, its 18 sets of 20' half sets to equal one 360' reel. Iirc the price is $100 or $110? So you get the same amount of string for 10-20$ less with half sets

Though some smarty pants will say with fancy measuring you can get more than 18 string jobs out of a reel. For me its easier to grab and go and not measure. Ymmv

If my math is right i will buy 1/2 sets next time. There may be the same $7.33 special on full sets if zx too. I bought 15 iirc last sale they had and then promptly reached the 60lb limit on the zx and switched to poly

 

[mikeler]

Lower launch angle sounds good to me. Maybe I'll try this setup out.