POLY vs KEVLAR in Spin Effect rackets

Buford T Justice said:
Yeah......there is never a free lunch!

In this case, I think the volley improvement is enough to warrant the change in the launch angle on ground strokes (which as mentioned I tend to prefer higher angles).

I plan to increase the differential on the next string job to the 20 lb you mentioned....I was thinking Id try 60/40?

I know that in the original ESP thread 90/40 was often quoted.....but I may need to start more conservatively than that!
Click to expand...
I thought the 60/40 differential was overkill but it still played well so you might like it, I prefer the 51/51 Kev/ZX cobo I am not using.
 
For Blade 98S users of the this combo with ZX crosses, I can get 3 cross strings out of ONE set of strings if I prestretch and measure carefully and leave almost nothing for my starting knot
 
Shroud said:
If i am doing the math right, its 18 sets of 20' half sets to equal one 360' reel. Iirc the price is $100 or $110? So you get the same amount of string for 10-20$ less with half sets

Though some smarty pants will say with fancy measuring you can get more than 18 string jobs out of a reel. For me its easier to grab and go and not measure. Ymmv
Click to expand...

I feel the same..... Way easier to grab and go! In my case (with the Blade 98S) 20 ft isnt enough for the mains anyway (so the 23 ft Ashaway provides in the hybrid pack fits well).

Does the half set of Kevlar measure 23 ft as well?
 
drak said:
For Blade 98S users of the this combo with ZX crosses, I can get 3 cross strings out of ONE set of strings if I prestretch and measure carefully and leave almost nothing for my starting knot
Click to expand...
Yeah! This racquet is a string hog on the mains, but is definitely a string saver on the crosses. With poly and when pulling string from a reel, I generally use about 16 feet and there's plenty to spare.
 
drak said:
I thought the 60/40 differential was overkill but it still played well so you might like it, I prefer the 51/51 Kev/ZX cobo I am not using.
Click to expand...

I've gotten used to a higher net clearance, so I naturally gravitate towards the higher launch angle setups. I'm not clearing the net by 5 ft like Nadal, but its not 2 inches over like Connors either! Mainly, I like the higher launch angle for cross court angles.....much easier to crush it and have it stay in (for me anyway).
 
Buford T Justice said:
If not pulling from a pole, etc., how are you guys performing the pre-stretch? Using a stringing machine, pulleys/weights, etc?
Click to expand...
I tie one end to the door knob and pull with all my weight tying the other end around a 1" dowel

Some are using a machine and stringing a spare racket without weaving and tying off and then using those strings in the real racket

One guy was pulling one main string length at max tension then moving the string through the racket and doing the rest... Picture all the string going through the string machine on the same main like a conveyor belt with 13" secrions getting tensioned one by one
 
I have the luxury of having a wood working bench that has a big wood vice on one side. I simply stick one end of the zyex into the vice, crank down hard and then wrap two wraps around a 1.5-2" dowel and haul back with my 200 lbs. I don't try to get all the stretch out of the Zyex, just about a foot or so out of a 19 ft length.
Zyex as a cross is crazy good with Ashaway Kevlar in the mains. Zyex cross with Babolat Nat Gut is nice too.
 
graycrait said:
I have the luxury of having a wood working bench that has a big wood vice on one side. I simply stick one end of the zyex into the vice, crank down hard and then wrap two wraps around a 1.5-2" dowel and haul back with my 200 lbs. I don't try to get all the stretch out of the Zyex, just about a foot or so out of a 19 ft length.
Zyex as a cross is crazy good with Ashaway Kevlar in the mains. Zyex cross with Babolat Nat Gut is nice too.
Click to expand...
I would be concerned that there is a nonzero safety risk of the ZX string snapping where it meets the edge of the vise, sending you sprawling backward.

To minimize that safety risk when I prestretch, I tie one end of of the string around a loop of heavy polyester twine, then loop the twine around my anchor. The twine is heavy enough that there is no risk of it breaking where it goes around a sharp corner. I reuse the same twine loop many times and just trim off the small piece of string beyond my double knot. With ZX there is not much risk of knot slip, but for other types of string like kevlar that can slip out of knots easily, I prefer to triple hitch around the twine for safety, as I've had double hitch knots slip with kevlar.
 
Last edited:
travlerajm said:
sending you sprawling backward.
Click to expand...

LOL. At age 61 I am pretty careful about falling. As you age injury recovery is a ....., well you get the picture. The string has slipped once or twice out of the vice, but I always do it with one leg back. I normally put the string in the vice at an angle and that prevents it from slipping. It has never broke. I've found it a pretty fast and efficient way to pre stretch. Not as exacting as I originally planned in my head but pulleys, weights, and anchor points seemed excessive for my own needs.
 
graycrait said:
LOL. I've found it a pretty fast and efficient way to pre stretch. Not as exacting as I originally planned in my head but pulleys, weights, and anchor points seemed excessive for my own needs.
Click to expand...

That's what I was getting at with my post.....just how precise do we need to be with the prestretch? It sounds like....not so precise! Which is good.....

My biggest concern was pulling the ZX.......I know this stuff will break if pulled too hard and its difficult to ascertain exactly how much force is being applied using bodyweight. I might make a quickie setup using a dropweight stringer affixed in place to apply the force with the anchor point remote.
 
I'm not sure ZX needs to be prestretched but I do it because it coils like a slinky while stringing if you don't. Once coil memory is tamed I think it is easier to string than any poly wire I have strung. I've prestretched Zyex a lot and not so much and not at all and when used as a cross with Ashaway Kevlar I'm not sure it makes a difference.
 
graycrait said:
I'm not sure ZX needs to be prestretched but I do it because it coils like a slinky while stringing if you don't. Once coil memory is tamed I think it is easier to string than any poly wire I have strung. I've prestretched Zyex a lot and not so much and not at all and when used as a cross with Ashaway Kevlar I'm not sure it makes a difference.
Click to expand...
Thats weird. Most report major tension loss when not prestretching zx. I can't get it tight enough with the current racket so not prestretching zx would scare me :)

I mean you know you can get a FOOT of permanent elongation, so think what that does to your tension when you hit and hit and the string relaxes even a few inches...
 
I'm no scientist but I think the Kevlar in my mains takes the brunt of the ball's punishment, while the ZX crosses provide a backing or springboard of sorts. I'm not sure if the small deflections over time or post stringing tension loss cause enough of an issue to reduce the overall stringbed effectiveness as it plays for me. I'm sure any pro would chuckle at my naivety or maybe they would just groan & mutter if they saw me "play." The only reason I use this stuff is 1) it sort of plays like a fresh poly set-up (good enough for me) without jarring my joints when I often mishit, 2) It is durable as anything I can imagine for me 3) Plays the same for a very long time for me 4) It doesn't move around all over the place or if it does it is all straight when I look at it after hitting a ball, 5) Cost per hour of play is low enough for me, 6) It is pretty easy to string.
 
I definitely learned that I need to string this stuff much tighter. I played with the same stringjob again tonight and it was the proverbial "rocket launcher". The spin was way way down and directional control was atrociously bad. In fact, I had to minimize groundstrokes and play almost all serve and volley as my error count on groundstrokes was at least triple my norm.

My partner I was playing (a guy who knows my shots better than anyone...we must have played 100 times at least) said he loved my new strings though...he likes the lack of spin immensely...he said I need to stick with them exclusively. :)

So, lesson learned going forward.....I need to prestretch much more and string higher (especially on the mains). I am going to go way up to something like 70/40 or 75/45.
 
All of the above said, the comfort is unbelievable! I feel like I could play three sets a day with this stuff without a problem. There's no way that could happen with a full bed of poly.
 
On the question of how precise you need to be when prestretching:

It's not a matter of precision, it's a matter of thoroughness or "completeness." As you prestretch more, you get closer and closer to 100% prestretched, with diminishing returns. I find that I can get about 2 feet of extra creeped length out of a 19-ft segment of ZX Pro - , once I've let the first 18" or so stretch out using my static pull, bouncing (pulsing) my weight gets a lot of additional stretch. I consider my prestretch "done" when I stop noticing the length changing with additional pulsing. It takes me about 10 minutes total - patience helps. With kevlar, I am less patient and call it done after a couple minutes of pulsing (2-3" creep for 20-ft length).
 
Buford T Justice said:
I definitely learned that I need to string this stuff much tighter. I played with the same stringjob again tonight and it was the proverbial "rocket launcher". The spin was way way down and directional control was atrociously bad. In fact, I had to minimize groundstrokes and play almost all serve and volley as my error count on groundstrokes was at least triple my norm.

My partner I was playing (a guy who knows my shots better than anyone...we must have played 100 times at least) said he loved my new strings though...he likes the lack of spin immensely...he said I need to stick with them exclusively. :)

So, lesson learned going forward.....I need to prestretch much more and string higher (especially on the mains). I am going to go way up to something like 70/40 or 75/45.
Click to expand...
Yep thats what I was talking about the ZX stretching like crazy. Its a guess but I am guessing that if the zx stretched a bit the racket is shorter now and that will change the sw, etc. Trav talks about this in his thread even with the normal differential and compensating with some lead at 12pm.
 
graycrait said:
I'm no scientist but I think the Kevlar in my mains takes the brunt of the ball's punishment, while the ZX crosses provide a backing or springboard of sorts. I'm not sure if the small deflections over time or post stringing tension loss cause enough of an issue to reduce the overall stringbed effectiveness as it plays for me. I'm sure any pro would chuckle at my naivety or maybe they would just groan & mutter if they saw me "play." The only reason I use this stuff is 1) it sort of plays like a fresh poly set-up (good enough for me) without jarring my joints when I often mishit, 2) It is durable as anything I can imagine for me 3) Plays the same for a very long time for me 4) It doesn't move around all over the place or if it does it is all straight when I look at it after hitting a ball, 5) Cost per hour of play is low enough for me, 6) It is pretty easy to string.
Click to expand...
I don't doubt it. Its really personal preference and your stroke style.

I once posted that I can't hit with my current racket if its strung with crosses below 80lbs. There is some truth to that. I have a spin racket and strung it lower, and I can use it but I have to stroke instead of hit. Now I can make a lower tension work on the main racket if I need to but its a different stroke than my normal stroke. Probably not explaining this the best.
 
Shroud said:
Yep thats what I was talking about the ZX stretching like crazy. Its a guess but I am guessing that if the zx stretched a bit the racket is shorter now and that will change the sw, etc. Trav talks about this in his thread even with the normal differential and compensating with some lead at 12pm.
Click to expand...

As an experiment and just for fun, I am going to try and restring the racquet with the same strings and see what happens.....it will probably end up as a 16x15 pattern instead of 18x16 :D
 
Shroud said:
I tie one end to the door knob and pull with all my weight tying the other end around a 1" dowel

Some are using a machine and stringing a spare racket without weaving and tying off and then using those strings in the real racket

One guy was pulling one main string length at max tension then moving the string through the racket and doing the rest... Picture all the string going through the string machine on the same main like a conveyor belt with 13" sections getting tensioned one by one
Click to expand...
That is me and what I do(prestretch) at about 75 lbs with the Kevlar, I just triple pull the ZX crosses while I string it and let the last one constant pull for 30 seconds and that takes about all the stretch out
 
drak said:
That is me and what I do(prestretch) at about 75 lbs with the Kevlar, I just triple pull the ZX crosses while I string it and let the last one constant pull for 30 seconds and that takes about all the stretch out
Click to expand...
I am stringing now (see above...reusing the strings just for yucks......) and just pulled to 75 on the Kev mains (and left it there), and planned to do the similarly on the crosses (a pull to ~10 lb over the desired tension....let it sit....then pull to desired, then clamp). I think Ill probably try a 75/45 split and see how it goes.
 
Buford T Justice said:
Unfortunately, I was only able to get a 16 x 15. The stock pattern is 18 x16.
Click to expand...
Well let us know how it goes. I hope the frame is OK. While I am crazy exceeding tensions I kind of worry about skipping strings. Perhaps needlessly?

On 2nd thought those spin rackets are probably made tougher and its not a worry.
 
I prefer a dead poly, aka control string, on my esps. I will wear in a new bed before a match to deaden it. I string low, like 38-40, so the feel is still soft, and the spin insane.
 
WYK said:
I prefer a dead poly, aka control string, on my esps. I will wear in a new bed before a match to deaden it. I string low, like 38-40, so the feel is still soft, and the spin insane.
Click to expand...
well the KEV/XZ hybrid IMO is an awesome "dead feeling" set up, its easy on the arm and plays the same for a good while
 
drak said:
well the KEV/XZ hybrid IMO is an awesome "dead feeling" set up, its easy on the arm and plays the same for a good while
Click to expand...
Shroud said:
Well let us know how it goes. I hope the frame is OK. While I am crazy exceeding tensions I kind of worry about skipping strings. Perhaps needlessly?

On 2nd thought those spin rackets are probably made tougher and its not a worry.
Click to expand...

It all went fine, but honestly I think I might like the tension even little bit tighter. The power of the set up is very significantly higher than a full bed of polyester. But, since it was strung 16 X 15, and not 18 X 16, I'm not sure if I can make too many generalizations.

In any case, it took me some time today to get dialed in with it, but I think I found the groove such that I was able to get the same "dive" I get with full polyester. For better or for worse, the way I play pretty much requires a diving type ball. The biggest problem I have is when I can't get to a ball in time to set up properly (as it's very easy for a ball to fly in that scenario, whereas with the much less powerful polyester, the ball would still stay in.) As mentioned before, the comfort (even at 75/45) is so superior to a full bed of polyester, that my arm has a very vested interest in sticking with this if I can.

As I noted the first time I used this setup, at the net this is a quantum leap over polyester. It has also become obvious that this hybrid is much less fatiguing to play with...which is certainly a nice bonus.
 
Buford T Justice said:
It all went fine, but honestly I think I might like the tension even little bit tighter. The power of the set up is very significantly higher than a full bed of polyester. But, since it was strung 16 X 15, and not 18 X 16, I'm not sure if I can make too many generalizations.

In any case, it took me some time today to get dialed in with it, but I think I found the groove such that I was able to get the same "dive" I get with full polyester. For better or for worse, the way I play pretty much requires a diving type ball. The biggest problem I have is when I can't get to a ball in time to set up properly (as it's very easy for a ball to fly in that scenario, whereas with the much less powerful polyester, the ball would still stay in.) As mentioned before, the comfort (even at 75/45) is so superior to a full bed of polyester, that my arm has a very vested interest in sticking with this if I can.

As I noted the first time I used this setup, at the net this is a quantum leap over polyester. It has also become obvious that this hybrid is much less fatiguing to play with...which is certainly a nice bonus.
Click to expand...
Cool report

Keep in mind that the tension differential reasults in lower actual tension thsn you string it at because of frame squashing The differential is to help spin but you have a spin racket. So maybe try 60/60 or something like that
 
Ill have to experiment some more......

Whats the limit of the ZX? About 60?


Shroud said:
Cool report

Keep in mind that the tension differential reasults in lower actual tension thsn you string it at because of frame squashing The differential is to help spin but you have a spin racket. So maybe try 60/60 or something like that
Click to expand...
 
Shroud said:
Yes but some have done 65-66. I have string it to high and it just stretches and stretches after a certain point and is unuseable
Click to expand...
I'll probably stick under the ~60 lb limit to be safe..... I've broken too many strings on the stringer when going near their limits! Cheap gut most recently.......

Does the ZX keep stretching wildly past 60ish lb......or does it generally snap?
 
Buford T Justice said:
I'll probably stick under the ~60 lb limit to be safe..... I've broken too many strings on the stringer when going near their limits! Cheap gut most recently.......

Does the ZX keep stretching wildly past 60ish lb......or does it generally snap?
Click to expand...
Thats what i was saying. It didnt snap it just kept stretching. Iirc i strung it at 75 and for a few minutes it was great then omg it just launched everything.
 
What Shroud is trying to say is that Zyex deforms permanently if tensioned above 65#. It can be strung that tight or higher, but it will start to permanently elongate until the tension drops below 60#. This process takes a few hours, but it happens. This happened to him even after he 'prestretched' the Zyex, so he knows from experience.
 
Thanks for the replies on this. The reason I was asking was that I actually broke the ZX pulling it a little less than 60 a couple of times, but it broke on the first pull very close to the starting knot. So, it appears the string will actually take a lot more than 60, but it's just temperamental at the knots?
 
I quit using starting knots once I got a Gamma starting clamp. http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Gamma_Stringers_Starting_Clamp/descpageGAMMA-GCLAMP.html

And because I started using Zyex after getting the starting clamp I have never broken Zyex on crosses, or even mains, although I don't advocate using Zyex on the mains. I also don't try and tie off zyex in tidy little knots. A hand pulled double half hitch works fine. How many times have I strung Zyex with a NEOS 1000? 20-30 I suspect. I have strung zyex mostly at 62lbs or even 64lbs with no issue.
 
graycrait said:
I quit using starting knots once I got a Gamma starting clamp. http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Gamma_Stringers_Starting_Clamp/descpageGAMMA-GCLAMP.html

And because I started using Zyex after getting the starting clamp I have never broken Zyex on crosses, or even mains, although I don't advocate using Zyex on the mains. I also don't try and tie off zyex in tidy little knots. A hand pulled double half hitch works fine. How many times have I strung Zyex with a NEOS 1000? 20-30 I suspect. I have strung zyex mostly at 62lbs or even 64lbs with no issue.
Click to expand...

Ha. I don't do starting knots either but don't need a starting clamp to do that.

String the last 2 crosses, double pull and set your clamps. Then pull the last cross at full tension and tie off as you would the last mains. then pull the 2nd to last cross at full tension.

I think my issues started at 75 but I think I just went there and didnt do 70 or even 65 IIRC.

Only had a knot break once out of about 25 rackets. That one time I THINK I may have notched the string a bit with the gripper or something. It was a total fluke, but there are reports of the knots being an issue. I think its nice to not pull like crazy.

I use Parnell knots exclusively and FWIW can't tie any other knots because I haven't had to learn them :)
 
Buford T Justice said:
Thanks for the replies on this. The reason I was asking was that I actually broke the ZX pulling it a little less than 60 a couple of times, but it broke on the first pull very close to the starting knot. So, it appears the string will actually take a lot more than 60, but it's just temperamental at the knots?
Click to expand...
As Esgee48 said (better than I did) is that you can string it high and it will appear to be just fine. But when you start hitting it has exceeded its elastic threshold and will just get longer and longer. Thats why they put the 60lb limit on the package. I am sure they fudge a bit and pad a few pounds for the thrill seekers but it happened to me....and thanks @esgee48 for figuring out what the deal was.

So it wont break with higher tension it just wont play right, and YES it does seem to be temperamental at the knots. Its only happened once to me but others report knot breakage. I think the less you have to loop it (and some knots are probably better than others) the better you will be.

Its a weird string in that you can stretch it lengthwise easily but when you try to turn it, thats when there seem to be issues, and to me, its very stiff when you try to loop it in your hands for instance.
 
Shroud said:
You could string higher and wait, but it would be even better to string higher, play a fee hoirs and then restring using the same strings. The higher tension and ball impact will stretch the strings more and when you reuse the initial tension loss will be significantly less. And especially for the zx because its the cross string, you get more elongation from pulling (not around a post) than stringing because the mains offer resistance

For the launch angle and no free lunch i blame the Duke boys...
Click to expand...

it would be even better to string higher, play a fee hoirs and then restring using the same strings.
when you reuse the initial tension loss will be significantly less

I fully agree with these statements and I approve it.
 
ricardo said:
it would be even better to string higher, play a fee hoirs and then restring using the same strings.
when you reuse the initial tension loss will be significantly less

I fully agree with these statements and I approve it.
Click to expand...

Great! You guys can string all of my Blades twice for me! Lol.
 
Played with the 75/45 hybrid again this AM and thing that stands out with this is definitely the comfort. It's not even remotely comparable in that department to the full polyester I was using before. So, big thumbs up there.

I definitely agree with what some others have posted as far as the large tension differential on this frame though. The launch angle, even for me, is way too high, and directional control is not very good. The only way I could consistently keep balls in with this set up today was to use a very Nadal-like lasso type swing. I should be getting a bunch more of the string in the mail tomorrow, so will string one up at something like 60/60 and I expect that will play much more precisely.
 
travlerajm said:
I would be concerned that there is a nonzero safety risk of the ZX string snapping where it meets the edge of the vise, sending you sprawling backward.

To minimize that safety risk when I prestretch, I tie one end of of the string around a loop of heavy polyester twine, then loop the twine around my anchor. The twine is heavy enough that there is no risk of it breaking where it goes around a sharp corner. I reuse the same twine loop many times and just trim off the small piece of string beyond my double knot. With ZX there is not much risk of knot slip, but for other types of string like kevlar that can slip out of knots easily, I prefer to triple hitch around the twine for safety, as I've had double hitch knots slip with kevlar.
Click to expand...

I made a simple pre-stretch rig this afternoon. Since I don't have as much experience as you guys prestretching, and I really have no idea how hard I was pulling, I simply used a drop weight stringer firmly affixed to a heavy workbench. I then put the string to be tensioned through the jaws of the drop weight arm and rotated the arm fully clockwise until it hit the workbench. The other end of the string was a wrapped around an old tennis racket handle and then clamped using a string clamp. So, when leaning back to pull on the string, I simply put the weight at the desired value and lean enough until the drop weight arm is parallel with the workbench, thus achueving the desired prestrech tension. I tested this on some old polyester at 70 lb, and it worked great, so I just did the Kevlar at 80 lb and it also worked fine.
 
Whoa.....you guys were spot on with the ZX elongation. I just gave it a good pre-stretch at around 55, and a half set gained a little over 18 inches in length.
 
Buford T Justice said:
I made a simple pre-stretch rig this afternoon. Since I don't have as much experience as you guys prestretching, and I really have no idea how hard I was pulling, I simply used a drop weight stringer firmly affixed to a heavy workbench. I then put the string to be tensioned through the jaws of the drop weight arm and rotated the arm fully clockwise until it hit the workbench. The other end of the string was a wrapped around an old tennis racket handle and then clamped using a string clamp. So, when leaning back to pull on the string, I simply put the weight at the desired value and lean enough until the drop weight arm is parallel with the workbench, thus achueving the desired prestrech tension. I tested this on some old polyester at 70 lb, and it worked great, so I just did the Kevlar at 80 lb and it also worked fine.
Click to expand...
sounds good, i found it very easy to just string the Kevlar mains on 84lbs on the racket i plan to string (the highest my gamma crank goes) then pull them out and restring ..Same with Zyex except i prestretch at 60...i then restring my Steam 105s at 50-47...so far so good
 
am finding the 18 gauge Kevlar mains in my 98S breaks in about 12-14 hrs - pretty damn good wear for 18 gauge mains in a spin effect racket, but probably going to start using the 1.25 17 gauge ashaway mains with the ZX crosses, that should get me to 25-30 hrs I'd guess
 
drak said:
am finding the 18 gauge Kevlar mains in my 98S breaks in about 12-14 hrs - pretty damn good wear for 18 gauge mains in a spin effect racket, but probably going to start using the 1.25 17 gauge ashaway mains with the ZX crosses, that should get me to 25-30 hrs I'd guess
Click to expand...
That would be absolutely incredible string life in one of these frames!
 
After the strings have been prestretched,is there any time limit as to when they should be put into the racquet? In short, if you pre-stretch them a few weeks in advance, does it matter?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Shroud
Spin
Replies
12
Views
2K
Egoista
E
J
Kevlar vs Poly
Replies
14
Views
2K
hurworld
H
Recon
Kevlar//Poly Hybrid
Replies
42
Views
3K
Shroud
Shroud
Topspin Shot
Longevity of Kevlar Hybrids
2 3
Replies
117
Views
6K
2ndServe
2
HunterST
Kevlar and ZX is pretty darn good. What about Poly/ZX?
Replies
9
Views
2K
ultradr
U
Back
Top