POLY vs KEVLAR in Spin Effect rackets

Buford T Justice said:
That would be absolutely incredible string life in one of these frames!
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it's unlikely the ZX crosses will break, it's the mains that will eventually fray and break, but yeah 25-30 hrs in a spin effect frame with good playability thru the life would be incredible. I just ordered some 16 and 17 ga Ashaway Kevlar so I'll string it up later next week.
 
drak said:
shouldn't matter much, I just do it right before I string
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I ask as, I move my dropweight to my Rube Goldberg setup in the garage to do the prestretch mentioned a few posts above.....so would be more convenient to stretch a bunch of strings at once. Its no big deal either way (literally 2 minutes to move the dropweight and bolt it down), but I was just curious.
 
drak said:
it's unlikely the ZX crosses will break, it's the mains that will eventually fray and break, but yeah 25-30 hrs in a spin effect frame with good playability thru the life would be incredible. I just ordered some 16 and 17 ga Ashaway Kevlar so I'll string it up later next week.
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Yes, I cant say Ive ever broken a cross in these 98S...its always the mains.

I ordered a bunch of the Crossfire ZX packs (1.25 Kevlar+ and 1.22 ZX). Ill try those for 6-7 frames worth and at that point maybe go with the reels if its cheaper.:D
 
Buford T Justice said:
Yes, I cant say Ive ever broken a cross in these 98S...its always the mains.

I ordered a bunch of the Crossfire ZX packs (1.25 Kevlar+ and 1.22 ZX). Ill try those for 6-7 frames worth and at that point maybe go with the reels if its cheaper.:D
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The ZX is incredible - just won't notch. I just was cutting my strings out and I could use scissors on the Kev but not on the ZX, unless you break ZX while stringing it's likely not going to break first.
 
Experimenting this weekend with a couple of the 98S with the Kev/ZX combos.....I strung one at 60/60 and the other at 70/60. Both were prestretched.
 
drak said:
it's unlikely the ZX crosses will break, it's the mains that will eventually fray and break, but yeah 25-30 hrs in a spin effect frame with good playability thru the life would be incredible. I just ordered some 16 and 17 ga Ashaway Kevlar so I'll string it up later next week.
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I agree i think. Though in a spin racket the zx broke before the kev. Thats a 1st for me
 
Shroud said:
I agree i think. Though in a spin racket the zx broke before the kev. Thats a 1st for me
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I've only had a ZX cross break on me once. But that time, the string behaved abnormally during prestretching which made me suspect a defective segment. Normally, I get about 20-24" of extra length on a 20-ft segment. But one time, a piece from the middle of the 16g ZX natural reel stretched nearly 3 feet, and then ended up breaking unexpectedly in the middle of the stringbed and quite early (after less than 10h).

Last week, my 16g kevlar broke on my Blade after about 6 months of multiple-hits-per-week wear (the predominant and predictable failure mode). And even then, it happened the day after I had played singles on a soggy Seattle winter outdoor court so that the kevlar soaked up a lot of moisture. The 17g black ZX crosses still looked smooth and round and good as new after 80h or so of play - I think I might even save them and reuse them, just to find out if they can last another kevlar saw-through cycle. If so, the cost per hour-of-play of a kevlar ZX stringbed would drop down pretty cheap.
 
Buford T Justice said:
Experimenting this weekend with a couple of the 98S with the Kev/ZX combos.....I strung one at 60/60 and the other at 70/60. Both were prestretched.
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Played with the 70/60 this AM.....feels great! This is a definite arm saver. Im down on spin a little bit over the poly hybrid I was previously using (Wilson Revolve/Double AR Twice Shark), but the comfort is so much greater that its a trade off that is easy to accept.

According to racquetune, quite a bit of tension loss after 2 1/2 hours use....dropped ~5 lb (based on readings taken immediately before use, then immediately after).
 
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Buford T Justice said:
Played with the 70/60 this AM.....feels great! This is a definite arm saver. Im down on spin a little bit over the poly hybrid I was previously using (Wilson Revolve/Double AR Twice Shark), but the comfort is so much greater that its a trade off that is easy to accept.

According to racquetune, quite a bit of tension loss after 2 1/2 hours use....dropped ~5 lb (based on readings taken immediately before use, then immediately after).
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Ive been using and tracking the 70/60 hybrid in racquetune.

On 1/15 after stringing at 70/60 (with a prestretch to 85 for the Kevlar and 60 for the ZX), it pinged out at 57.

After sitting for a day and not being used, it tested at ~55.

After the first use (2.5 hours) right after testing at ~55, it dropped to ~50.

After about 5 hours (two, 2.5 hour uses on 1/16 and 1/19) , this AM (1/20) it pinged at 48.5, for a total loss of ~15%.

Although this setup plays great, the loss is more than I was expecting. Are others seeing same? It does appear that the majority of the losses have taken place (as loss after the 2nd use was a fraction of that after the first use).
 
Buford T Justice said:
Ive been using and tracking the 70/60 hybrid in racquetune.

On 1/15 after stringing at 70/60 (with a prestretch to 85 for the Kevlar and 60 for the ZX), it pinged out at 57.

After sitting for a day and not being used, it tested at ~55.

After the first use (2.5 hours) right after testing at ~55, it dropped to ~50.

After about 5 hours (two, 2.5 hour uses on 1/16 and 1/19) , this AM (1/20) it pinged at 48.5, for a total loss of ~15%.

Although this setup plays great, the loss is more than I was expecting. Are others seeing same? It does appear that the majority of the losses have taken place (as loss after the 2nd use was a fraction of that after the first use).
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Racket tune never seemed to work for me, but i think your numbers track with what i have experienced. After a while the loss seems to settle down and play the same for hours.

I cant recall any numbers for different setups so this may be great or terrible. But shockingly its alot less than the 30lbs that a certain poster was citing :)
 
Shroud said:
Racket tune never seemed to work for me, but i think your numbers track with what i have experienced. After a while the loss seems to settle down and play the same for hours.

I cant recall any numbers for different setups so this may be great or terrible. But shockingly its alot less than the 30lbs that a certain poster was citing :)
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Cool.....

I don't really place a huge emphasis on the absolute numbers RT provides, but I do think its a useful tool for tracking changes.

The 15 % loss really isn't too bad (much better than some other strings Ive used and tracked on RT), but I suppose I was expecting that the prestretch was going to take tension loss into something less than 10%. Why I thought 10%.......I have no idea (only that it was a nice convenient and low number I guess) :D
 
i strung my 105s 18g Ashaway kev/17gZX 50-50 about 2 weeks ago and played about 4 hours prior to this... here is video of some points..i'm in the WHITE shirt vs a big strong hitter..My slice was biting and falling short (which was a good thing) as he was having a hard time digging it out..I also hit a ridiculous angle at 2:15 for an ace..Even my defensive stabs were landing in with good control..So far happy with the spin and control..a little less power but my wrist/arm is ok and i have an ulnar nerve injury :)
 
comeback said:
Yes Buford, my arm was my main concern about trying Kev/ZX...maybe it's the tension loss you discovered which is making it more arm friendly;)
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It is crazy how soft this string bed plays considering the main strings are The stiffest strings out there! The ZX really has a huge impact it appears.
 
Shroud said:
Racket tune never seemed to work for me, but i think your numbers track with what i have experienced. After a while the loss seems to settle down and play the same for hours.

I cant recall any numbers for different setups so this may be great or terrible. But shockingly its alot less than the 30lbs that a certain poster was citing :)
Click to expand...

After ~7 hrs use (and 7 days since stringing), the 70/60 Kev/ZX hybrid has shown a ~16.5% tension loss on RT. I noticed using the frame last night that a lot of shots were "off"....control has diminished a bit. Mains notching (or should I say fraying where notches might normally be) is noted, but its not that bad. Poly would be 1/2 to 2/3 notched by now.

Another frame I strung with Kev/ZX at 60/60 is showing a ~9% loss after 8 days (and no real use, maybe 5 minutes.)

The same frame using Wilson Ripspin 17 showed an ~18% loss after ~12 hours use (and 13 days after stringing). This was right about where this set broke on the next time out.

So, in the tension loss department, this setup seems to be in line with my old poly. But, there is no doubt it is easier on the arm so I am going to stick with it (but am going to up the stringing tension from 70/60 for sure).
 
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Buford T Justice said:
After ~7 hrs use (and 7 days since stringing), the 70/60 Kev/ZX hybrid has shown a ~16.5% tension loss on RT. I noticed using the frame last night that a lot of shots were "off"....control has diminished a bit. Mains notching (or should I say fraying where notches might normally be) is noted, but its not that bad. Poly would be 1/2 to 2/3 notched by now.

Another frame I strung with Kev/ZX at 60/60 is showing a ~9% loss after 8 days (and no real use, maybe 5 minutes.)

The same frame using Wilson Ripspin 17 showed an ~18% loss after ~12 hours use (and 13 days after stringing). This was right about where this set broke on the next time out.

So, in the tension loss department, this setup seems to be in line with my old poly. But, there is no doubt it is easier on the arm so I am going to stick with it (but am going to up the stringing tension from 70/60 for sure).
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Keep in mind the differential will inflate initial tension loss i think. But you probably took that into account
 
Shroud said:
Keep in mind the differential will inflate initial tension loss i think. But you probably took that into account
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Kinda yes.....since I did another frame at 60/60 with the Kev/ZX. The initial loss on that one and the 70/60 (before being used) didn't seem to vary that much (maybe 1%?). Both dropped ~3-4% in ~24 hrs without use.
 
Shroud said:
Keep in mind the differential will inflate initial tension loss i think. But you probably took that into account
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I have never tried using racquet tune. But I've discovered that going all the way up to 90/40 (thoroughly prestretched) has greatly reduced my perceived tension loss.
In fact, my perception is that it the tension actually increases a tad before it plateaus, rather than dropping.

If you think aboutthe physics, it actually makes sense that this could happen. The high differential means that a significant amount of potential energy is stored in the frame due to squashing the hoop, as the hoop of the racquet acts as a very efficient spring (the aforementioned archer's bow effect). As the strings start to take a pounding from hitting, the kevlar mains lengthen a little, but they don't lose tension. Instead of losing potential energy to tension loss (as what happens with a conventional stringbed), the stored potential energy from the compressed hoop is gradually transferred into the strings over time as the stringbed changes shape. So by the time the stringbed tension plateaus, the mains are a little longer, but still at roughly the same tension that they started at. The ZX strings are a little shorter, but since they are much stretchier than the kevlar, they remains at roughly the same tension also.

I'm not sure if racquet tune would be able to show this interesting phenomenon of perceived zero (or even negative) tension loss or not, but I certainly can feel it. Even at 66/46, the tension loss seemed very noticeable, but not with 90/40. I suppose the perceived negative tension loss could also be because the stringbed initially feels looser until the the tensions start to equalize, even though the actual tensions have dropped.
 
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I have RacquetTune and all of Sten's excellent apps. I would love to do some measurements on tension loss of an ESP stringbed and various other strings. However I don't pick up my racket from the stringer until a few hours, sometimes a few days, after it's been strung. So I wouldn't be able to measure the stabilization loss.

Trav, I have used your ESP setup with a Poly/ZX at 60/40 prestrung for the last 6 months. Remarkably, it has played well throughout, until recently where it finally deadened. Funnily enough, I was saying to my practice partner that it seemed to stiffen up initially, then it loosened up and really came into it's own, with easy power, low launch angle and incredible spin. I asked my stringer to machine pre-stretch it. Is there a big, noticeable difference in tension maintenance between manually pre-stretching and a machine pre-stretch?
 
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newyorkstadium said:
I have RacquetTune and all of Sten's excellent apps. I would love to do some measurements on tension loss of an ESP stringbed and various other strings. However I don't pick up my racket from the stringer until a few hours, sometimes a few days, after it's been strung. So I wouldn't be able to measure the stabilization loss.

Trav, I have used your ESP setup with a Poly/ZX at 60/40 prestrung for the last 6 months. Remarkably, it has played well throughout, until recently where it finally deadened. Funnily enough, I was saying to my practice partner that it seemed to stiffen up initially, then it loosened up and really came into it's own, with easy power, low launch angle and incredible spin. I asked my stringer to machine pre-stretch it. Is there a big, noticeable difference in tension maintenance between manually pre-stretching and a machine pre-stretch?
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Yes - there is quite a difference. Every type of string can be plastically elongated a finite amount using the sub-100-lb forces you can get from either manual stretch or stringing machine. A typical 20-ft length of poly will plastically elongate about 8" (~3%). Once you permanent elongate it that 3% amount, it will behave much more like a perfectly elastic material (much closer to 100% energy return), so that it does not lose much tension. For ZX string, the amount of plastic elongation required to reach the fully elastic behavior is much greater. A 19-ft segment will permanently elongate about 23" (~10%). The manual stretch method makes it easy to measure the amount of elongation so that you know when you have prestretched to completion. Since the strings are viscoelastic in the plastic regime, the prestretch cannot be done ina few seconds. It takes at least 5-7 minutes of rowing /leaning / bouncing my body weight to complete the job.

A machine prestretch, on the other hand, only stretches for a few seconds. So you are only getting a small fraction of the advantage that you would get if you prestretched thoroughly manually. You are probably only elongating the poly by less than 1%, and the ZX by less than 3%. So when you put it in the racquet, the string will behave much more plastically rather than elastically. And there will still be quite a bit of tension loss.
 
Trav, what about my method of stringing Kevlar at 90lbs and ZX 60lbs and leaving it for 24 hours in a racket...Then pulling it out and restringing my ESP 105s 50-50lbs
 
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comeback said:
Trav, what about my method of stringing Kevlar at 90lbs and ZX 60lbs and leaving it for 24 hours in a racket...Then pulling it out and restringing my ESP 105s 50-50lbs
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As far as effectiveness, in general it should be better than a machine prestretch, but less effective than the manual method.

The main reason it is less effective is because the string is not actually lengthening, so the actual tension on the string will drop over the 24h period.

Also, kevlar seems to require a beating to help realign the individual fibers to get the string to lengthen during prestretching - and the nice thing about kevlar is it is so durable that there is no risk of damaging it. It also slides around bends with very little friction due to its braided structure. I would think your method would be much much effective for the kevlar if you beat the stringbed with a mallet a few times while it is under tension (which will drop the tension quite a bit) then retension the ends and repeat the malleting to distribute the tension. Doing this process a few times would only take a few minutes, and then I'd think you wouldn't add much by leaving it in the stringer overnight - you'd be done. Actually, I might try this myself just to see how much extra length of kevlar I end up with.

As for ZX, I wouldn't recommend using the stringer to prestretch, mainly because the ZX gets weakened a lot and becomes more fragile when it is pulled under tension around bends, which would make it much more likely to break during play at an unexpected moment. But if pulled linearly, it can take quite a lot of tension (more than 100 lbs). I pulse up to 100 lbs or more during my prestetch protocol and I've never had it break on me - and prestretching "linearly" in this way also seems to make the ZX stronger and less prone to breakage while stringing.
 
travlerajm said:
As far as effectiveness, in general it should be better than a machine prestretch, but less effective than the manual method.

The main reason it is less effective is because the string is not actually lengthening, so the actual tension on the string will drop over the 24h period.

Also, kevlar seems to require a beating to help realign the individual fibers to get the string to lengthen during prestretching - and the nice thing about kevlar is it is so durable that there is no risk of damaging it. It also slides around bends with very little friction due to its braided structure. I would think your method would be much much effective for the kevlar if you beat the stringbed with a mallet a few times while it is under tension (which will drop the tension quite a bit) then retension the ends and repeat the malleting to distribute the tension. Doing this process a few times would only take a few minutes, and then I'd think you wouldn't add much by leaving it in the stringer overnight - you'd be done. Actually, I might try this myself just to see how much extra length of kevlar I end up with.

As for ZX, I wouldn't recommend using the stringer to prestretch, mainly because the ZX gets weakened a lot and becomes more fragile when it is pulled under tension around bends, which would make it much more likely to break during play at an unexpected moment. But if pulled linearly, it can take quite a lot of tension (more than 100 lbs). I pulse up to 100 lbs or more during my prestetch protocol and I've never had it break on me - and prestretching "linearly" in this way also seems to make the ZX stronger and less prone to breakage while stringing.
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i also do a manual pull around a pole (i've read your views on that method) wearing ski gloves (which works great) and at least get a good stretch..Thanks for the advice, it's not hard to get another old racket and string the ZX linearly before i restring again..
 
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I'm noticing the Kev/ZX causes the balls to fluff up..I also bought the lubricant Buford recommended which might be causing it if i forgot to wipe it off LOL..i'm playing well but 10 hours in i seem to have lost some power in my last match..or maybe i just didn't play well (not sure)
 
comeback said:
I'm noticing the Kev/ZX causes the balls to fluff up..I also bought the lubricant Buford recommended which might be causing it if i forgot to wipe it off LOL..i'm playing well but 10 hours in i seem to have lost some power in my last match..or maybe i just didn't play well (not sure)
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I don't think the Fast Fret causes balls to fluff up (at least I have never noticed it anyway). I apply that stuff on every changeover with no wipeoff!
 
Buford T Justice said:
I don't think the Fast Fret causes balls to fluff up (at least I have never noticed it anyway). I apply that stuff on every changeover with no wipeoff!
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Thanks Buford..what about the balls when you are playing with Kev/ZX..do they fluff up more than usual? ..or maybe because i have the thinist guage 18g/17g with a 105s spin monster
 
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Hey Buford,FYI .. i bought The Fret lubricator and used it liberally on my 105s kevlar/zx 50-50 after about 5 hours..I "think" the lubricator might have been absorbed more into the kevlar rope like texture..The kevlar started fraying and i was losing playability ..I cut it out after 9-10 hours..Still not 100% sure..I'll be playing more next week with a new kevlar/zx and i won't use the Fret to see if i notice any change..
 
I've been following this discussion as i have a interest in Kevlar Strings and i kinda like Spin Effect Rackets. I play with a RF97 and have been looking for a string that will last longer then the 3 hours i get out of Solinco Tour Bite (Great string). This has lead me to trying Kevlar, and well after the first session with kevlar, I felt i was onto something good. Now after reading the positive comments on ZX, I thought, well lets give it a try. Ok, well done, thanks, Kevlar 18/ZX @40/50 in my RF97 was exactly what i was after. The ZX just added that extra power I was looking for, and kept the high level of control. Really impressive...

I'm a fan of Spin Effect Rackets, and often bring out the Steam 99s or PS95s for a bit of fun on social days and I am looking forward to stringing these up with kevlar/ZX

Thanks to those who mentioned ZX, i would never had bothered had i not seen all the good comments.
 
I have arm issues and usually string my racquets with natural gut at 50-55 lbs. if I were to try the Kevlar mains/zx cross hybrid, what tensions would you guys recommend? Thanks in advance.
 
TadDavis said:
I have arm issues and usually string my racquets with natural gut at 50-55 lbs. if I were to try the Kevlar mains/zx cross hybrid, what tensions would you guys recommend? Thanks in advance.
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With poly kevlar, I would do 53 mains and 45 crosses.

Don't play with it off the stringer, and let the poly drop a few pounds overnight.

I personally hate the setup off the stringer as it is very stiff and lacks any power, but after about 12 hours it is softer on my arm than full poly.
 
Ihatetennis said:
With poly kevlar, I would do 53 mains and 45 crosses.

Don't play with it off the stringer, and let the poly drop a few pounds overnight.

I personally hate the setup off the stringer as it is very stiff and lacks any power, but after about 12 hours it is softer on my arm than full poly.
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Thanks, I was actually inquiring about Kevlar mains/zx crosses, though. I'm trying to stay away from poly altogether.
 
TadDavis said:
I have arm issues and usually string my racquets with natural gut at 50-55 lbs. if I were to try the Kevlar mains/zx cross hybrid, what tensions would you guys recommend? Thanks in advance.
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55/40 to start. Though i think kev/zx is arm friendly its not friendlier than full gut. So not sure you should be trying with arm issues.
 
Shroud said:
55/40 to start. Though i think kev/zx is arm friendly its not friendlier than full gut. So not sure you should be trying with arm issues.
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Thank you. Yeah, maybe I shouldn't but this thread has me intrigued. Just looking for an alternate set up for wet/humid days. Do any of you guys like the Kevlar around 40? Wondering if that would be any easier on your arm.
 
Im fairly new to kevlar and started at 50/55 in a RF97. Im now settling in on 40/50 kevlar 18/ZX. The 50/55 was very comfortable on the arm and i only dropped tension to gain a bit of power. Still typical kevlar control at 40lbs.
 
TadDavis said:
Thank you. Yeah, maybe I shouldn't but this thread has me intrigued. Just looking for an alternate set up for wet/humid days. Do any of you guys like the Kevlar around 40? Wondering if that would be any easier on your arm.
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I lose tension with the know being pulled tight, to be honest kevlar feels pretty much the same no matter the tension, except it will be very loose and move like syn gut does

I prefer to string it tight enough to keep tension and not get all loose. Even though it feels the same
 
TadDavis said:
I have arm issues and usually string my racquets with natural gut at 50-55 lbs. if I were to try the Kevlar mains/zx cross hybrid, what tensions would you guys recommend? Thanks in advance.
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I will assume you are referring to a RF97 non spin effect. If correct I'd try 60/40 pre stretched with Kev/XZ. No guarantees but I have a shoulder that is very susceptible to POLY or too tight/too stiff strings and have had no issues with Kev/ZX either in my Blade 98s or a few other non spin effect rackets I have used. If you are using a spin effect I'd go 50/50 (give or take a bit) with 18 gauge Kev/1.27 ZX, however if 18 gauge Kev is used in a spin effect racket your string wear will be fairly rapid (12 hrs) if you hit with any significant pace and spin.
 
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